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Amanda902
01-06-2014, 03:09 PM
http://jezebel.com/a-wish-for-the-man-who-took-a-5-year-old-to-see-wolf-o-1494087398?utm_campaign=socialflow_jezebel_faceboo k&utm_source=jezebel_facebook&utm_medium=socialflow

I don't think I'm a prude, far from it actually. But when I see people at the theatre with kids at movies in which the age is not appropriate, it really bothers me. Am I the only one?

We were waiting in line for Inglorious Basterds, and they were actually taking ID to get in. The poor employee was being berated because she wouldn't permit someone's 12 year old son in. She said it wasn't the first time someone tried to get their underage children in, and when some complained to management on opening night about kids being in there, they started taking ID. Honestly, WTF is wrong with people? I know it's just a movie, and they can probably watch it on the internet, and all that. I really question the parenting skills of these people.

lone-wolf
01-06-2014, 03:14 PM
I watched pretty much anything I wanted growing up. I don't see an issue.

superbrad
01-06-2014, 04:05 PM
Call me old fashioned (It's OK, I'm old fashioned) but the desensitizing of kids to violence through movies, video games and some of the cartoon "kids" shows is terrible nowadays.... It's part of why I cringe on these gunsites when I read about all of the zombie apocalypse junk.... While some adults may consider it "fun" it is trickling down to our children to a point where violence is accepted either as normal or something that isn't real and happens only in games and movies.....

harbl_the_cat
01-06-2014, 04:24 PM
Not the sort of film I'd be watching with my young children. To each his own, but I say there is a difference between deliberately robbing a youth of their innocence and mentoring them and fortifying their character. One builds up a healthy, strong, life long relationship. The other leads the child to grow up questioning why the "grown up" made the decisions they did.

I don't think there's anything wrong with the prevalence of graphic media - sexual, violent, etc. At this point - no one is forcing anyone to watch anything. Personally, I really enjoy watching My Little Pony with my little girls. If others want to watch sexualized, violent, media with their kids - it's not my place to tell them not to. I do think, though, there most certainly are consequences to EVERY interaction you, as a parent, have with your children which is one of the reasons I generally try to be a little bit modest when I'm watching/doing things with my kids.

My daughter once spontaneously said the "F" word just out of the blue. I'm ex-military, so it's not entirely a term that's wiped from my vocabulary, but I made (and make) a conscientious effort to watch my language. Kids do soak things up like a sponge, though - so to the OP, yeah, it doesn't seem very wise as a parent to take your young child to a movie like that.

lone-wolf
01-06-2014, 04:25 PM
I played violent games, and watched violent and scary movies at a young age. If it was meant to desensitize me, it failed badly.
My parents on the other hand, who never had video games, or even electricity for that matter a good chunk of their lives, seem to be more desensitized.

harbl_the_cat
01-06-2014, 04:27 PM
I played violent games, and watched violent and scary movies at a young age. If it was meant to desensitize me, it failed badly.

Me too, but I do think I generally had better role models and sufficiently involved parents to guide me down a good path - so while the media didn't end up phasing me, personally, I think had the circumstances been a little different, they might have.

coastal
01-06-2014, 05:22 PM
http://jezebel.com/a-wish-for-the-man-who-took-a-5-year-old-to-see-wolf-o-1494087398?utm_campaign=socialflow_jezebel_faceboo k&utm_source=jezebel_facebook&utm_medium=socialflow

I don't think I'm a prude, far from it actually. But when I see people at the theatre with kids at movies in which the age is not appropriate, it really bothers me. Am I the only one?

We were waiting in line for Inglorious Basterds, and they were actually taking ID to get in. The poor employee was being berated because she wouldn't permit someone's 12 year old son in. She said it wasn't the first time someone tried to get their underage children in, and when some complained to management on opening night about kids being in there, they started taking ID. Honestly, WTF is wrong with people? I know it's just a movie, and they can probably watch it on the internet, and all that. I really question the parenting skills of these people.

You can raise your kids how you see fit, those people doing something outside of the home with their kids can do as they wish. Not your problem. People probably think I'm crazy giving my daughter a compound bow for Christmas, F them and MYOB. ;)

Candychikita
01-06-2014, 06:13 PM
one would hope that the parent knows the temperament of their children (that they can handle the content) and are ready to talk to them about the things they are seeing on the screen. parent involvement and interaction can be the difference...perhaps the young son at inglorious bastards was interested in all things WWII and read the book with the parent in question?

not the kind of movie i'd take my kids to...i wouldn't see it myself :D i cried at pixar's UP. twice. :D

lone-wolf
01-06-2014, 08:35 PM
I remember I wasn't allowed into the theater to see Ghosts of Mars, they said it was because it was rated R, I'm thinking they were really just protecting me from horrible movie.

harbl_the_cat
01-06-2014, 10:14 PM
I remember I wasn't allowed into the theater to see Ghosts of Mars, they said it was because it was rated R, I'm thinking they were really just protecting me from horrible movie.

Yeah, that was a pretty lame movie.

Amanda902
01-06-2014, 11:14 PM
Thank you all for your point of view. I just feel kids these days are growing up so quickly. Can't we just let them be kids? I can't imagine explaining an orgy to five year old.

bettercallsaul
01-07-2014, 12:23 AM
Not at all.

It is up to the parents to decide what their kid is allowed to see at that age, not some bureaucrats who slap a letter on something they don't understand.

harbl_the_cat
01-07-2014, 01:07 PM
"We" have no place in deciding what anyone can or can't, should or should not do.

Parenting is a personal relationship between an adult and their child, not a collective agreement between a large group of people outside that relationship.

There are good parents, there are bad parents - but the whole notion of a one size fits all book of regulations governing ALL parents is just ludicrous. If someone raises there kids in such a way that they don't impede on anyone else's ability to do the same, it's not anyone else's place to tell them what to do and what not to do.

You don't have to agree with all the decisions that others make, but you don't have the right to deprive them of the right to make those decisions.

superbrad
01-07-2014, 01:43 PM
"We" have no place in deciding what anyone can or can't, should or should not do.

Parenting is a personal relationship between an adult and their child, not a collective agreement between a large group of people outside that relationship.

There are good parents, there are bad parents - but the whole notion of a one size fits all book of regulations governing ALL parents is just ludicrous. If someone raises there kids in such a way that they don't impede on anyone else's ability to do the same, it's not anyone else's place to tell them what to do and what not to do.

You don't have to agree with all the decisions that others make, but you don't have the right to deprive them of the right to make those decisions.

Only issue with that being that "we" are the ones who have to deal with the poorly raised children when they are outside their parents care and in our presence or interacting with and influencing our kids....

harbl_the_cat
01-07-2014, 02:18 PM
Only issue with that being that "we" are the ones who have to deal with the poorly raised children when they are outside their parents care and in our presence or interacting with and influencing our kids....

"our presence" and "our kids" is the key terms.

"our" is the point to focus on - not "their."

My wife and I take the approach now (with our oldest girl being 3) to be involved in our children's lives. To form a strong relationship with them and to guide them. We act as loving role models to them and work hard to position ourselves to be the primary influence in their lives understanding as they grow and mature, they will, in their own time, develop their own sense of independence and long to form relationships outside of our family. It is our intention NOW to guide them how to go about doing so in such a way that is healthy and responsible.

If anything, the biggest problem is our social model is the that both helicopter and absentee parents don't focus on building relationships with their children and are incapable of influencing them one way or the other. This mostly is rooted in the 200 year old education system that treats children as cattle and teachers as assembly line workers - but the whole idea that negative influences in a child's life ought to be prohibited is a really disingenuous thought.

It's a failure of the parents to let it get to a point where their a child's behaviors are adversely negatively influenced by external factors. Being a failure of those parents, the responsibility is also theirs, and distributing that responsibility to others or to other parents is just nonsense.

awndray
01-07-2014, 02:26 PM
I'm with Amanda, superbrad and harbl.

superbrad
01-07-2014, 02:46 PM
It's a failure of the parents to let it get to a point where their a child's behaviors are adversely negatively influenced by external factors. Being a failure of those parents, the responsibility is also theirs, and distributing that responsibility to others or to other parents is just nonsense.

I partially agree with this statement, however, I feel it's unfortunate that I have to guide my children around bullying, cussing, and violence in general that they have brought home from school because they were inherited from other kids whose parents don't take the time to properly guide their children and do things such as screening the movies they watch....

harbl_the_cat
01-07-2014, 03:17 PM
I partially agree with this statement, however, I feel it's unfortunate that I have to guide my children around bullying, cussing, and violence in general that they have brought home from school because they were inherited from other kids whose parents don't take the time to properly guide their children and do things such as screening the movies they watch....

That's one of the major reasons why we plan on homeschooling.

I'd rather limit my kids interactions with those sorts of people to a point when they are mature enough to know how to deal with them, but the reality of our society is most kids today live in 2 income families, where their parents interactions with their children are limited and structured in such a way that those interactions come when they (the parents) have personally exhausted most of their mental, intellectual, and physical resources at work and don't have very much left to build a meaningful relationship with their children.

That puts the kids in a "Lord of the Flies" situation, where parents are more like caretakers. The very nature of the education system makes it very hard for teachers to be more than subject matter instructors. That then means the primary influence on the kids development are other undeveloped kids, with whom they spend the majority of their time and build the strongest bonds and relationships.

Honestly, it's a pretty sick and unsustainable system when you look at it. Kids developing in an environment where their the lead influence in their lives are other developing kids.

I think a more healthy, natural, and sustainable system is one where undeveloped kids are mentored by and form the strongest relationship with more mature members of their family, such as us, their parents OR their older siblings. My oldest girl will be taught by us and we will be the major influence in her life. The lessons we teach her, she will help impart to her younger siblings, who in turn will have each of us being the major influences and having strongest relationships with my wife and I having the greatest control over what external influences mold and shape their behavior and attitudes.

People are often critical that this model deprives the kids of "social interaction" and prevents the kids from developing "social skills," but I say the opposite is true. It's not as if we plan on locking our kids up in a cage and never letting them interact with other kids. It's just whereas other kids spend most of their time interacting with other kids - picking up their habits, mannerisms, beliefs and attitudes - our kids will spend most of their time with us (their parents - who are mature adults), their siblings (with whom they already share a life long bond) - and any friendships they develop with others are through meaningful experiences, such as extra curricular activities, as opposed to a constant, daily grind.

Edenchef
01-08-2014, 09:58 AM
That's one of the major reasons why we plan on homeschooling.

I'd rather limit my kids interactions with those sorts of people to a point when they are mature enough to know how to deal with them, but the reality of our society is most kids today live in 2 income families, where their parents interactions with their children are limited and structured in such a way that those interactions come when they (the parents) have personally exhausted most of their mental, intellectual, and physical resources at work and don't have very much left to build a meaningful relationship with their children.

That puts the kids in a "Lord of the Flies" situation, where parents are more like caretakers. The very nature of the education system makes it very hard for teachers to be more than subject matter instructors. That then means the primary influence on the kids development are other undeveloped kids, with whom they spend the majority of their time and build the strongest bonds and relationships.

Honestly, it's a pretty sick and unsustainable system when you look at it. Kids developing in an environment where their the lead influence in their lives are other developing kids.

I think a more healthy, natural, and sustainable system is one where undeveloped kids are mentored by and form the strongest relationship with more mature members of their family, such as us, their parents OR their older siblings. My oldest girl will be taught by us and we will be the major influence in her life. The lessons we teach her, she will help impart to her younger siblings, who in turn will have each of us being the major influences and having strongest relationships with my wife and I having the greatest control over what external influences mold and shape their behavior and attitudes.

People are often critical that this model deprives the kids of "social interaction" and prevents the kids from developing "social skills," but I say the opposite is true. It's not as if we plan on locking our kids up in a cage and never letting them interact with other kids. It's just whereas other kids spend most of their time interacting with other kids - picking up their habits, mannerisms, beliefs and attitudes - our kids will spend most of their time with us (their parents - who are mature adults), their siblings (with whom they already share a life long bond) - and any friendships they develop with others are through meaningful experiences, such as extra curricular activities, as opposed to a constant, daily grind.

My hat's off to you sir. I wish more parents would take their role as seriously. Then maybe this gong show called Canada would slowly turn around.

Cheers!

Sabio
01-09-2014, 08:33 AM
Were we not supposed to turn into suicidal psychopaths because we played Dungeons and Dragons when we were 10. ?
Kids then and more so now can handle violence and mental stress

Doug_M
01-09-2014, 09:06 AM
While I believe in live and let live (in other words parent's choice) I also believe too many parents these days are idiots that are robbing their younger children of a true childhood. They are robbing them of their innocence by allowing them to watch and listen to things made for an older audience. And they are depriving them of the joys of culture (books, movies, music etc) that is appropriate for their age. Does your 5 year old listen to children's music or do they listen to mum and dad's music? There is an excellent website for parents at www.commonsensemedia.org. It has age ratings by parents, the site itself and children. More often than not parents say something is okay for an age a few years higher than what the kids themselves say.

We took our 7 yr old and his friend to see Frozen last week. It's a Disney movie rate PG. Some dumb parent thought it was okay to take their 3 yr old (guessing age) and the poor toddler was devastated and wailing (spoiler) when they thought one of the main characters had died. Now this probably won't scar the child or give them mental health issues later on in life, but really just because it is from Disney and is a cartoon does not mean it is okay for all audiences. Sorry, bit of a rant there...

Candychikita
01-09-2014, 11:25 AM
While I believe in live and let live (in other words parent's choice) I also believe too many parents these days are idiots that are robbing their younger children of a true childhood. They are robbing them of their innocence by allowing them to watch and listen to things made for an older audience. And they are depriving them of the joys of culture (books, movies, music etc) that is appropriate for their age. Does your 5 year old listen to children's music or do they listen to mum and dad's music? There is an excellent website for parents at www.commonsensemedia.org. It has age ratings by parents, the site itself and children. More often than not parents say something is okay for an age a few years higher than what the kids themselves say.

We took our 7 yr old and his friend to see Frozen last week. It's a Disney movie rate PG. Some dumb parent thought it was okay to take their 3 yr old (guessing age) and the poor toddler was devastated and wailing (spoiler) when they thought one of the main characters had died. Now this probably won't scar the child or give them mental health issues later on in life, but really just because it is from Disney and is a cartoon does not mean it is okay for all audiences. Sorry, bit of a rant there...

interesting on the website. i'll have to check it out.

derailing but...what did your 7 year old son and his friend think of frozen? too girly for them? i was sharing the kleenex with my youngest, but they both loved the movie and want to see it again and again.

harbl_the_cat
01-09-2014, 12:16 PM
Sounds like Frozen comes highly recommended... I've heard lots of good things about it (haven't seen it myself).

Also, I was reading an interesting article about sharing the Gospel with iGens, that explained very well the challenge with iGen's (the current generation), the article is here: http://www.christianitytoday.com/le/2009/summer/thegospelforigens.html

But I think the synopsis explains it well: "Reared on self-esteem and impervious to guilt, the next generation needs good news that can break through their defenses."

The jest of it is that society has conditioned kids to have unrealistic expectations pertaining to their self esteem to the point that they feel absolutely no sense of guilt and are entirely self-absorbed (as in, the primary focus of their existence is their own self gratification and self image). I think that contrasts quite radically from the Millennial, Gen-X, and especially the Baby Boomers, who instead share generational traits of being much more selfish and entitled.

Really though, kids are a lot tougher than anyone gives them credit for, and I think one of the biggest rifts emerging with the younger generation is that older generations are basically yelling at the younger ones, but the credibility that the older generations have is rapidly waning and as the younger generations grow older and assume more of an influential role the kind of rebellion (and I suspect revolution) you will see will be astonishing.

As an adult now, I think the most important thing is to form relationships with the younger generation - not necessarily as a mentor/student, but as a peer to a peer. I think kids today who have that kind of a role model can get through all kinds of garbage and turn out just fine. Really if there are problems with them - I think a lot of it is attributable to a lack of role models, which isn't entirely the kids fault, but more a fault to those of us adults who SHOULD have filled that role but didn't.

Doug_M
01-09-2014, 01:56 PM
what did your 7 year old son and his friend think of frozen? too girly for them?

Nope, he and his friend laughed and laughed through the whole thing.

Doug_M
01-09-2014, 02:10 PM
Really though, kids are a lot tougher than anyone gives them credit for, and I think one of the biggest rifts emerging with the younger generation is that older generations are basically yelling at the younger ones, but the credibility that the older generations have is rapidly waning and as the younger generations grow older and assume more of an influential role the kind of rebellion (and I suspect revolution) you will see will be astonishing.

I doubt it. When I was in the military the younger generations coming in had no work ethic at all. I've been out for 7 years but I haven't seen any change. I don't see older generations yelling at younger ones either (unless you count these types of forums I guess). I see my peers and younger who are currently parents letting their kids get away with everything and not teaching them anything about respect. Not just respect for others but respect for themselves. A young person who has any kind of half decent work ethic and who can show some respect is head and shoulders above the crowd. Credibility of older generations always wanes in the eyes of the younger, until the younger gets to be middle-aged and "grows up" themselves.


As an adult now, I think the most important thing is to form relationships with the younger generation - not necessarily as a mentor/student, but as a peer to a peer. I think kids today who have that kind of a role model can get through all kinds of garbage and turn out just fine. Really if there are problems with them - I think a lot of it is attributable to a lack of role models, which isn't entirely the kids fault, but more a fault to those of us adults who SHOULD have filled that role but didn't.

Don't know at what level you are talking about here. IMHO the problem with many kids these days is exactly because their parents want to form a peer relationship with their children rather than a parent/child one. I am not my sons friend, I am his father. That is my and his proper role during his youth. The lack of mentors is probably a city thing. I live in a small town (approx 7000) and my son is involved in lots of activities (scouting, sports etc) where there are a lot of good mentors for him. When we lived in the city (Halifax) not so much.

Candychikita
01-09-2014, 03:38 PM
Don't know at what level you are talking about here. IMHO the problem with many kids these days is exactly because their parents want to form a peer relationship with their children rather than a parent/child one. I am not my sons friend, I am his father. That is my and his proper role during his youth. The lack of mentors is probably a city thing. I live in a small town (approx 7000) and my son is involved in lots of activities (scouting, sports etc) where there are a lot of good mentors for him. When we lived in the city (Halifax) not so much.

i agree with you there. as they turn into young adults the relationship turns to be more peer-to-peer-like, but even then there should still be the respect there as owed to an elder. i am mom, and even though i am a fun mom...if it comes to choosing between being 'friend' or 'mom', the answer is always mom. they will have lots of friends, and they have lots of positive empowering mentors. only one mom.

the comment about the older generation yelling at the younger generation i watch, as does my children. we talk about this, how it would make them feel and why the behaviours are happening, and if the yelling works. i don't yell or punish them in anger, and i treat them with respect. i have only three rules that are easy to follow and easy to remember. the door is open if they want to talk about anything, and the agreement is that if they talk to me, i can't give them grief for telling me. from accidentally smashing something to the horrifying day when they start thinking about being sexually active, honest communication is encouraged. i don't want them sneaking around in their teen years or drinking and driving or ending up with an std. hopefully this works. so far so good...there's a lot of thought going into this parenting process.

harbl_the_cat
01-10-2014, 04:34 PM
My apologies for being a bit unclear, when I mean "form relationships with the younger generation" I mean non-family members of the younger generation. When it comes to the parent child relationship, there's a whole other story.

I think the biggest problem our society has is so many children don't have strong parent figures in their lives since their parents are so burnt out from working, so they resent everyone who is older than them and resent any authority that is synonymous to their absent parents.

To that end, the role of non-parental, adult mentors is absolutely critical for young people, however, our society takes all the bite out of being an adult mentor - if you volunteer in ANY capacity with children, you're literally not allowed to do almost anything of substance to set derelict kids straight - and they know this.

What I've observed that this has done is either turned adults entirely off to working with or volunteering with kids or royally frustrates and disillusions anyone who does. What I see a lot of folks who work with kids do is basically try to be firm verbally sparing with them, having the kids blow them off, then just give up. The problem is, you can NEVER reach kids following that approach - but unfortunately, to many that's the default approach they take.

The disconnected parent issue is one that will only be solved by a MASSIVE collapse in our economy that resets living standards to a level where healthy family units can actually exist (see here: http://gunownersofcanada.ca/showthread.php?11468-The-Prosperity-Illusion); but I don't think that's coming without some major (almost scary) changes happening first.

Frankly, I think most of these kids are likely going to grow up with the "pull the plug from dad/grandpa's life support" mentality or worse, when they inherit a bad economy (caused by the political leaders of OUR times), they might simply revolt and violently tear down the entire existing order. To prevent that, adults today have to fill 2 roles: 1) become real parents, not revenue generating parents and 2) mentor and help OTHER kids grow through these hard times.

It is for option 2) that I think the best approach is to befriend and form a peer to peer relationship. The WORST thing to do in that scenario is try to be the parent they never had.

Strewth
01-10-2014, 04:56 PM
^I agree with a lot of what you said, harbl. My wife and I were...fortunate?mature?responsible? enough to talk about kids before we had them, and agreed that children are not a socially mandated fashion accessory for the couch in front of the TV, but that they do indeed factor heavily in all decisions made post-pregnancy. Why people wouldn't turn down the higher paying job, or the bigger house, to spend more time with their kids boggles the mind. We both work, and have plenty of time and energy to spend with the kids every evening...I'm pretty sure it's called parenting, a concept that seems to have eluded some of my peer group. Can't teach it in school anymore though, I'm sure someone would take offense. Must appease the lowest common denominator, dontcha know.

As for you option 2), I'm already too scared to do that:(. I don't want my firearms taken away because someone has a tantrum and screams I'm pedo-bear.

harbl_the_cat
01-11-2014, 08:05 AM
Two years ago I started "Young a Guns" a shooting program for youths. I also started volunteering with jr high kids through my church.

Both experiences have been real eye openers.

For one, my youth program has really shown me how important family based youth programs are. While I love shooting and teaching kids, what I enjoy more is seeing families bonding through the experience. There's two videos here: http://www.btsa.ca/matches/index.php/btsa-matchs-information/young-guns-youth-shooting-program/ but in one of them, you can see a man hugging his teenage daughter, while he's acting as an RSO.

The thing is, people throw all kinds of time, money and faith at politicians and the government to try to protect their gun rights, when those politicians don't care and never will. Conversely, your own children, if they love guns (or even just know you do, and love you) will someday grow up to be voters themselves and won't vote or be swayed by gun grabbing crooks. At the same time, abortion is holy ground to left wing gun grabbers - so you can see the political advantage child raising and demographic warfare have (Muslims love using this strategy - because it works).

Besides, the economy is going to stagnate and there is no way the existing public safety net will exist in 5-10 years, so the safest thing a person can do to protect their personal interests is have a close knit family to fall back on for support.

Volunteering with kids has really been an educational experience as well, since it has really shown how different teenage kids are today vs when I was a teenage, just 15 years ago. The influence of the internet, social media, and mobile computing has resulted in a huge differences In psychology and cognitive processing of these kids. So much so, that I think kids today operate mentally like a multicore CPU computers with gigs of RAM and broadband internet connections compared to their parents, who operate like single core computers, a few megs of RAM and old dial up modems.

The thing is kids today have so much potential - so much more than we as adults had when we were their age - but as adults, we squander and waste their potential by clinging to century old ideas, models, and institutions which cut these kids off at the knees. Our education systems, our mainstream media, (even) most churches, our businesses, our social structures, our industries, and especially our government are all fundamentally incompatible with the upcoming generation - yet many adults cling to them and try to maintain them, at the expense of their children.

The thing is, many of these kids will awaken to see this reality, and when they do, they will bring about unimaginable change. I volunteer, because I want to steer those kids to bring about change that recognizes the sanctity of individual rights, personal choice, and localized communities and governance and will REJECT corporatist, collectivist "bigness" that dehumanizes and crushes the individual initiative and intuition in favour of group compliance.

The only way that will happen is with dedicated adults to show them the way - as all the existing institutions preach that collectivism is the only salvation.

Doug_M
01-11-2014, 11:47 AM
The thing is kids today have so much potential - so much more than we as adults had when we were their age - but as adults, we squander and waste their potential by clinging to century old ideas, models, and institutions which cut these kids off at the knees. Our education systems, our mainstream media, (even) most churches, our businesses, our social structures, our industries, and especially our government are all fundamentally incompatible with the upcoming generation - yet many adults cling to them and try to maintain them, at the expense of their children.

The thing is, many of these kids will awaken to see this reality, and when they do, they will bring about unimaginable change. I volunteer, because I want to steer those kids to bring about change that recognizes the sanctity of individual rights, personal choice, and localized communities and governance and will REJECT corporatist, collectivist "bigness" that dehumanizes and crushes the individual initiative and intuition in favour of group compliance.

Interesting. I'm guessing I'm about 15 years older than you (but my son is only 7) so I would fall into the dial-up category. :) With reference to the first para quoted above could you give some examples please?

I don't think the kids will awaken and bring about change. They are more than any other generation willing to throw away concepts like privacy, they are being conditioned to accept the nanny state and that you do as the gov/police tell you without question. They are self-absorbed and think social media is equivalent to community. They think change can come about by online petitions and Twitter.

We as parents of the younger ones (middle school and below) are the only ones who can stop this by teaching our kids what is important (like the things you've mentioned) and by limiting their access to things that are perhaps to old for them (music, movies, games etc) and limiting their use of social media. How many parents let their kids under 13 sign up for Facebook? Why, because Johnny is on it?

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

harbl_the_cat
01-13-2014, 11:02 AM
Interesting. I'm guessing I'm about 15 years older than you (but my son is only 7) so I would fall into the dial-up category. :) With reference to the first para quoted above could you give some examples please?

I don't think the kids will awaken and bring about change. They are more than any other generation willing to throw away concepts like privacy, they are being conditioned to accept the nanny state and that you do as the gov/police tell you without question. They are self-absorbed and think social media is equivalent to community. They think change can come about by online petitions and Twitter.

We as parents of the younger ones (middle school and below) are the only ones who can stop this by teaching our kids what is important (like the things you've mentioned) and by limiting their access to things that are perhaps to old for them (music, movies, games etc) and limiting their use of social media. How many parents let their kids under 13 sign up for Facebook? Why, because Johnny is on it?

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Perhaps the thing I find most interesting volunteering with Jr. High kids, is just how rebellious they are. It absolutely astonishes me!

Of course, as an adult, my immediate action is to default to what I know - what and how I was conditioned to do when I was there age, and that was to look to an authority figure with fear and respect. To fall in line and do whatever that authority figure commands me to.

These kids do the EXACT opposite.

They just brush aside and dismiss authority figures and carry on with what they're doing. I thought it was just a couple of trouble makers in my group, but talking to some of the other adult leaders in my volunteer program - it turns out EVERY group is like this.

At first I found this very disheartening, since it was so different to what I was used to, but the more I thought about it, the more encouraged I was to see it and realized that is the greatest asset these kids have. There is an intuitive awareness with these kids that something isn't right with the institutions of authority in our society - and I think they are fully justified in feeling so. The powers that be have effectively mortgaged away these kid's futures on themselves.

This is encouraging, because I believe these kids will by necessity HAVE to fundamentally transform society. I can't wait until they do.

DOA
01-13-2014, 12:46 PM
Interesting conversation. My wife and I are considering home schooling our kids for many reasons including those discussed here. I personally am torn on how much involvement society should have with parenting. I agree that each parent should be able to decide for themselves what movie their kids attends without the government dictating terms. Even though many parents will allow their kids to see inappropriate shows, I need to recognize that it's not my place to decide for them. On the other hand, I believe in "it takes a village" and so society as a whole should be mindful and mentoring kids to help develop them into tomorrow's leaders.

I think the trend of entitlement is far worse than most of us realize. The education system is flawed but it's society that made it worse by trying to protect the children. "Don't hit my kid" turned into "teachers work for us and it's their fault my kid is failing". There seems to be less and less accountability for actions. It's going even further downhill with the protection from anything negative which is removing the possibility of growth through experience.

The push for parents to have more control over their kids development verses the government (which I agree with), has gone very wrong. "Think for yourself" turned into "always challenge authority", resulting in no respect for authority. This has been escalated by today's parents overcompensating for the fact that yesterday's parents both worked but didn't quite give everything to the kids. They still said no. Today's parents seem to give everything and want to be friends too. I believe we need to be authority figures, teachers, mentors, protectors and providers first. When we do a good job being a parent, the friendship will follow with maturity. I remember wanting more of my dad's time and attention growing up while he was providing for us. I've learned to be more involved with my kids because they probably feel the same. I also learned how to be a good father with the attributes I noted. My Dad is also one of my best friends now that I'm in my 30's as I've learned to respect him and share many interests with him.

So where's the line between sheltering your kids from society and being a part of society helping to develop the upstanding citizens of tomorrow?

harbl_the_cat
01-13-2014, 05:45 PM
Interesting conversation. My wife and I are considering home schooling our kids for many reasons including those discussed here. I personally am torn on how much involvement society should have with parenting. I agree that each parent should be able to decide for themselves what movie their kids attends without the government dictating terms. Even though many parents will allow their kids to see inappropriate shows, I need to recognize that it's not my place to decide for them. On the other hand, I believe in "it takes a village" and so society as a whole should be mindful and mentoring kids to help develop them into tomorrow's leaders.

I think the trend of entitlement is far worse than most of us realize. The education system is flawed but it's society that made it worse by trying to protect the children. "Don't hit my kid" turned into "teachers work for us and it's their fault my kid is failing". There seems to be less and less accountability for actions. It's going even further downhill with the protection from anything negative which is removing the possibility of growth through experience.

The push for parents to have more control over their kids development verses the government (which I agree with), has gone very wrong. "Think for yourself" turned into "always challenge authority", resulting in no respect for authority. This has been escalated by today's parents overcompensating for the fact that yesterday's parents both worked but didn't quite give everything to the kids. They still said no. Today's parents seem to give everything and want to be friends too. I believe we need to be authority figures, teachers, mentors, protectors and providers first. When we do a good job being a parent, the friendship will follow with maturity. I remember wanting more of my dad's time and attention growing up while he was providing for us. I've learned to be more involved with my kids because they probably feel the same. I also learned how to be a good father with the attributes I noted. My Dad is also one of my best friends now that I'm in my 30's as I've learned to respect him and share many interests with him.

So where's the line between sheltering your kids from society and being a part of society helping to develop the upstanding citizens of tomorrow?

Personally, I think the education systems actually shelter kids from society, rather than providing them the opportunity to grow and develop into mature, responsible individuals.

The education system operates with a set of assumptions and with a world view that is 200 years old and not at all compatible with the modern world.

This was a really good TED talk about a concept called "Hackschooling." This young lad really has it together and he is absolutely right - more young people need to be educated the way he is:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h11u3vtcpaY

Candychikita
01-13-2014, 06:15 PM
i'd agree with the sheltering part. kids with allergies aren't taught to pay attention to their own allergies; the institution will just ban everything they shouldn't be eating. one day they will be out of the institution, and BAM! where's the epipen!

the thing i find with homeschooled children though are that they don't get the same social ...hazing as those in mainstream schooling. i have friends who were homeschooled throughout, and ones that were 'spot homeschooled'. i was 'spot homeschooled' in the transition between north american and british schools, and don't seem to have that social awkwardness that my friends have that missed the teenage years in school. are they more creative and think outside the box? absolutely. but they can't seem to create long lasting friendships. i wouldn't say homeschooling is the right solution for all kids.

i also think i might not get along with my mother nearly as well if she kept homeschooling me bahahahahahaha.

harbl_the_cat
01-13-2014, 11:28 PM
i'd agree with the sheltering part. kids with allergies aren't taught to pay attention to their own allergies; the institution will just ban everything they shouldn't be eating. one day they will be out of the institution, and BAM! where's the epipen!

the thing i find with homeschooled children though are that they don't get the same social ...hazing as those in mainstream schooling. i have friends who were homeschooled throughout, and ones that were 'spot homeschooled'. i was 'spot homeschooled' in the transition between north american and british schools, and don't seem to have that social awkwardness that my friends have that missed the teenage years in school. are they more creative and think outside the box? absolutely. but they can't seem to create long lasting friendships. i wouldn't say homeschooling is the right solution for all kids.

i also think i might not get along with my mother nearly as well if she kept homeschooling me bahahahahahaha.

I think it really depends on the parents, but truthfully, I think 20-30 years ago, conventional schooling made a lot more sense and many people stood to benefit from it. Today, though, is the transitory period between the industrial era and the digital era, and conventional schooling makes very little sense and is probably more to the detriment of children than most homeschooling curriculums would be.

The reality is this generation, the iGeneration, has such a vast array of technological tools specifically built to spread knowledge and information instantaneously, and these kids have never experienced a world where that technology did not exist. Properly harnessed, and with the right guidance, these tools render conventional education models (school bus, school bell, teacher, classroom, subjects, regimented scheduling) completely obsolete.

Not only that, but the reality is that social media and web communications IS the new form of socialization. If anything, not leveraging the power of the internet is cruel, barbaric, and socially regressive. Just look at this forum, for example. Here we have thousands of people with common ideologies, interests, beliefs, and experiences. Using this forum as a socializing and communication tool, we (as in the members of this forum) can establish a collective of shared information that can enable us to become more knowledgable, proficiently, and skilled at what interests us - namely guns.

How much more so, can youth do the same thing with such technologies, and instead of forcefully being given dangerous psychotropic drugs to dumb them down so they can pay attention to something they find dull, boring, and uninteresting - if they can, again with the right guidance, pursue topics that are of interest to them by forming communities such as the one you and I are forming this very minute? Imagine the brilliance that can be unlocked by in all areas of society if young people can grow up to pursue and become masters of subjects they love, instead of just falling in line with some canned response a no-nothing career councillor vomits out to them.

Seriously, the potential of this generation is absolutely astonishing, and the way our existing institutions, the government first and foremost, robs them of this potential is just infuriating.