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Tactical72
02-05-2014, 09:20 PM
Not sure if this is the correct spot for this post. Mods, fell free to move it.

I'm at work in camp and I'm having a text conversation with my girlfriend. I ask what she is doing tonight. She responds, Helping a friend who volunteers cleaning at a day shelter. I ask, why is it in need of cleaning. The answer, lack of resources. Couldn't the people who use the shelter clean it, as a kind of earn your keep deal, I ask. She said, who, the homeless drug addicts? Yes, could they not push a broom while being high, I enquired. I'm told this is not the purpose of the place so I ask what it the purpose of it. Here is the response.

The purpose of ******** is to meet the needs of homeless people that other organizations are not able to meet. A warm place. A friendly smile. A meal. A hot drink. A place to shower. A place to do laundry. A place for them to feel human and like someone cares.

I want to know if I'm way off base wondering why, when provided with this facility, they, the users, can't be asked to put a bit of energy into maintaining it for the privilege of using it.

Opinions please.

(BTW I dropped the subject with the gf before I got this far. I'm not a total idiot.)

lone-wolf
02-05-2014, 09:46 PM
If they were smart enough to give a damn and look after the place they eat & sleep, they wouldn't be homeless drug addicts?

Hey, it's just like camp, they feed yea, clean your room, take care of the bathroom and showers for ya.

awndray
02-05-2014, 09:47 PM
Ungrateful, selfish, lazy bastards; that's my opinion.

Strewth
02-05-2014, 09:48 PM
Agree 100%.
Why couldn't the purpose of ********* be to get people a bit of their dignity and pride back through honest labour?
Good call dropping the subject.

ilikemoose
02-05-2014, 09:52 PM
That shelter needs some methamphetamine addicts.

Them tweakers can clean.

Tactical72
02-05-2014, 10:03 PM
Why couldn't the purpose of ********* be to get people a bit of their dignity and pride back through honest labour?

This would have been my exact point if I had decided to continue the discussion.

Tactical72
02-05-2014, 10:06 PM
Hey, it's just like camp, they feed yea, clean your room, take care of the bathroom and showers for ya.

Not at all the same. Camp is paid for by my employer because of the service I provide them.

JustBen
02-05-2014, 10:15 PM
I don't get why they can't pitch in. Even simple stuff...

Maybe there's some "liability" with it in today's ambulance chasing society...

Maybe I don't get it because I never tried drugs and don't understand what they really do to a person.

lone-wolf
02-05-2014, 10:25 PM
Not at all the same. Camp is paid for by my employer because of the service I provide them.

You both end up with pretty much the same experience, of course you actually earn the privilege, and the people who have to clean up are paid decently.

Forbes/Hutton
02-05-2014, 10:35 PM
Do they bend over for you to wipe their asses?

Tactical72
02-05-2014, 10:38 PM
You both end up with pretty much the same experience, of course you actually earn the privilege, and the people who have to clean up are paid decently.

Exactly!

Bullwhip
02-06-2014, 12:14 AM
You aren't off base, OP.

bettercallsaul
02-06-2014, 12:31 AM
lol, asking the addicts to clean up after themselves might be a good way to get them out the door and back on the street.

Keep one thing in mind, drug addicts don't give... they only take.

Tactical72
02-06-2014, 06:50 AM
Keep one thing in mind, drug addicts don't give... they only take.

Perfect! They can take some time, take a turn with a broom and take some pride in the task, lol

stevesummit
02-06-2014, 07:30 AM
Perfect! They can take some time, take a turn with a broom and take some pride in the task, lol

This is t what the masters want tho!!! They have spent all this time programming us to think that we need to tend to these people , when they should just be carrying their own weight in society as we all have too !!

FALover
02-06-2014, 07:36 AM
Shelters deal with many marginal peoples. Many shelters are not friendly places. Many do not sleep as they are fearful of having what little belongings they own stolen in the night. Drugs and alcohol are just the tip of the iceberg. Mental health issues are the bulk of the problems. These are the folks who have had a hard go and cant make it unlike others who have conquered their demons. Some are veterans of past military conflicts, would you deny them a warm room? Others have lost family members , usually a child and they then lose reality. Sure there are some there who are lazy and feel entitled to handouts but they are not the majority. As for cleaning up, I have been to public ranges that look like landfill sites. When we are unable to get someone who owns a firearm,able to buy ammo, own a car to drive there with old electronics to shoot at after a day at work to pick up after themselves how can we judge the castoffs of our society who we would rather not even acknowledge?

stevesummit
02-06-2014, 08:28 AM
The root cause is not important but the step to any recovery is having the tiniest bit of pride! And if sweeping a common area could help with that Then here's a broom . Yes you will have slobs from all walks of life but the same rule applies look after your little part of the world and it will look after you !!!!

FALover
02-06-2014, 10:30 AM
Well I have just deleted 3 paragraphs on this subject and the value of pride. The best way to get a grasp of this is to visit a shelter. As much as it would be great for nobody to need these, Bureaucrats and social engineers want them to thrive. To have people dependant on your 'services' creates a need,thus creating employment in the public sector. The best way to keep someone under control and dependant is to break their pride. Toronto area hostels are cleaned by contracted cleaners who would very 'upset' if their jobs were taken away by drunks and homeless people. Money talks and a lot of money is spent keeping those in need 'in need'.

stevesummit
02-06-2014, 11:52 AM
Well I have just deleted 3 paragraphs on this subject and the value of pride. The best way to get a grasp of this is to visit a shelter. As much as it would be great for nobody to need these, Bureaucrats and social engineers want them to thrive. To have people dependant on your 'services' creates a need,thus creating employment in the public sector. The best way to keep someone under control and dependant is to break their pride. Toronto area hostels are cleaned by contracted cleaners who would very 'upset' if their jobs were taken away by drunks and homeless people. Money talks and a lot of money is spent keeping those in need 'in need'.

I agree 100% sir. Victim services needs to be self sustaining otherwise they are out of work!! We have seen this with Wendy for many years now !

ilikemoose
02-06-2014, 12:36 PM
Well I have just deleted 3 paragraphs on this subject and the value of pride. The best way to get a grasp of this is to visit a shelter. As much as it would be great for nobody to need these, Bureaucrats and social engineers want them to thrive. To have people dependant on your 'services' creates a need,thus creating employment in the public sector. The best way to keep someone under control and dependant is to break their pride. Toronto area hostels are cleaned by contracted cleaners who would very 'upset' if their jobs were taken away by drunks and homeless people. Money talks and a lot of money is spent keeping those in need 'in need'.

Canada has gotten away from the old fashioned idea that work is not a necessary evil, but that work well done should be a source of pride.

It's part of the decline of society, as we move away from those old school values usually defined as the Protestant Work Ethic, and replace it with the entitlement mentality.

So now, we have homeless shelters where we enable addicts, drunks and people of poor moral fibre to live a life of indolence and sloth., funded by money extorted from the pockets of the hard working Canadian taxpayer.

walperstyle
02-07-2014, 01:03 AM
Homeless shelters are a good example of a lot of bad things going wrong in this country. Nobody wants to work. They want everything free or cheap.

It all started with the generation 'work smart not hard'....SHOULD have read 'work smart AND hard'.

Meanwhile universities are selling expensive dreams to future failures. Stop the social support. Look how much china improved when it forced people to work. Middle class thriving.

Strangeday
04-25-2014, 07:01 AM
That shelter needs some methamphetamine addicts.

Them tweakers can clean.

That there is one of the truest lines ever.....I have seen some completely whacked tweaked women break out a mop and bucket and go to town

Foxer
04-25-2014, 08:42 AM
(BTW I dropped the subject with the gf before I got this far. I'm not a total idiot.)

I wondered if that would come up :)

It would be nice to see at least a concentrated effort to get volunteers from the residents to help with the chores. I get that a lot of the people there have serious mental health issues which lead to their addictions and homelessness - but I also agree with the idea that it's a chance to instill a little pride back into the people.

The problem is that many are transient and it's hard to get them to look after a place they don't really have any emotional connection to like they might a 'home' of some sort. They're there for one night and then gone, and they'll want to leave as soon as possible to be away from the place and doing whatever they do on the streets to get by.

It's a complex issue with no simple solutions.

I do know this - Vancouver under mayor robertson has been pushing hard to make life easier for the homeless, in an effort to reduce or eliminate homelessness in the city. A report was just released on the status of the homeless. Their numbers have tripled. Giving stuff for free is not in and of itself the answer.

Foxer
04-25-2014, 08:43 AM
I have seen some completely whacked tweaked women break out a mop and bucket and go to town

I see you've MET my Mother after she switched to decaffeinated. :)

Donny Fenn
05-25-2014, 01:17 PM
and I still wonder why we need a TFW program in this country
two stories:
-I have friend that is with Calgary Police Service, he thinks crime in downtown could disappear if the Homeless Hilton required fingerprint/background checks before admission
-another friend lived across the street from one of the complexes in Toronto where a certain percentage of the units were "shelter/welfare/low income" and used to tell me stories of him shovelling his walk/driveway while the fine citizens across the street laughed and waited for teh city staff to come and shovel that side of the street

OEM
06-09-2014, 07:49 AM
Long ago, before government got involved and turned it into a business, there was no welfare. The care and help for the destitute and downtrodden was the task of the church and their faithful. These were usually staffed by men and women with no more motive than to help their fellow man by reaching out and lending a helping hand. They realized that by doing this, they saved not only the person, but the soul.

Fast forward to today, where govt and faceless (read as heartless) bureaucrats gets into the act. Their solution is to throw many at people. After all, its not their money, and really its the easiest thing in the world to do and makes the giver feel good. Think of the Roman in his chariot throwing coins at the peasants as they pass by. What they have done though, is far more insidious. Throwing money at a man removes him of his dignity. Scrabbling for it in the dirt removes his humanity. And finally, his soul is left empty because he soon realises his only worth ... is being useless.

I grew up and lived, in a country where there was no such thing as welfare. If you didn't work, or the sole breadwinner of your family suddenly died (as mine did), you very quickly find out that life can be deadly serious. You can literally die of hunger. As I grew older, I helped out at the local St. Vincent De Paul society. It was heartbreaking to see some of the cases we administered to. We gave food, not money. Never money. Food and clothing to people who literally cannot work because they are too old, weak or have nothing left in them.

Here, I see strong able-bodied men and women complain that they cannot find work and so line-up for money, which they promptly use for drugs, liquor or smokes. Welfare isn't good. It dehumanizes and belittles. And it breeds laziness. Many many other countries in the world do not have this and their citizens can scratch out a living for themselves in almost any condition...honestly.

No reason why we cannot do the same here.

chrisc
06-09-2014, 10:07 AM
I would say they can clean it themselves or die in the street.

Foxer
06-09-2014, 04:28 PM
Yeah - well dying on the streets generally casts the local gov't in a bad light so they don't want that, and letting them clean themselves can honk unions off, so I don't see it happening in the immediate future. :)

RimfireFans
06-10-2014, 04:23 PM
Even if the place was "cleaned" by it's clients, it would still need to be cleaned properly. There is no reason that the hired cleaning staff would need to be let go. If some of the clients wanted to help they could pick up some garbage, sweep the floor, take out the trash etc. Simple jobs that do not require any training or knowledge about the subject can be done in minutes. The simple act of "helping" makes people feel better about themselves. That's what a program like this is about.

Being dependent or having mentally health issues means they likely won't do a good job due to their personal distractions. No taking away jobs, and no losses.

tedfromalberta
06-12-2014, 10:08 AM
Back in the 80's, I spent 5 years on Vancouver's Downtown East Side. To those that don't know, it is classified as the worst skid row area and most poverty stricken are of Canada. While there I worked in a homeless shelter.
The people it served mostly had mental health issues that ranged from mild to downright scary. Many had addiction problems of all types, and also elderly people with dementia that couldn't be housed.
We had staff and volunteers that among other duties did some cleaning.
There were many clients that regularly pitched in with cleaning and serving food.
And yes there were many that couldn't or wouldn't help at all.
The homeless issue is a very complex issue with no easy solution, and it is not going away in our lifetime.
With very few exceptions, most are unemployable.
It seems the simplest solutions come from the simplest people who have never seen it first hand.
I read about the police officer that figures background checks and fingerprints would eliminate crime. After I stopped laughing I decided to write this post. I would have thought a cop would know better, but I guess that's another part of the problem.
Oh well, rant over. 25 years later I am know a shift team leader at a major oil facility. I'm one of the lucky ones. Most of the people I knew from back never got out and are long dead.

harbl_the_cat
06-13-2014, 03:45 PM
The homeless issue isn't complex to explain at all.

In 2013, the average cost of a house in Canada is $410,000. The average Canadian income is $38,700.

In 1972, the average cost of a house in Canada was $28,000. The average Canadian income was $12,000.

Homes (along with every life essential) are expensive. Incomes are low.

Thanks to our government - it is now impossible for the "average" person to live in an "average" home. For the "below average" person... well - they're just out of luck.

This is typical of a bankrupt society on the brink of collapse.

pitw
06-13-2014, 04:11 PM
Building a house is much cheaper to do yourself but I'm betting 99% of the populace can't do it. Most can't clean it themselves either.

harbl_the_cat
06-13-2014, 04:26 PM
Building a house is much cheaper to do yourself but I'm betting 99% of the populace can't do it. Most can't clean it themselves either.

To some degree I have tried, but the problem is when you get into foundation things like load bearing structures especially (and to a lesser extent electrical, HVAC, plumbing, or even land use) the government generally forces you to get an engineering stamp to do so legally.

Moreover, when the government offers tax payer funded insurance on deposits AND mortgages (even sketchy ones) and when the government's central bank manipulates interests rates - it creates a moral hazard that incentives irrational behavior and juices up the housing markets to unattainable levels.

Imagine you had a $5000 beater car with an insurance policy that would pay out $10,000 for an at fault accident with no deductable? Well - most sensible people would go out and smash their care into a brick wall.

It's the same thing with housing. It doesn't make sense to make a $500,000 mortgage to a person earning $40,000 with a year with a $25k down payment - but the government fully insures it, so why not? In the end, it pushes up housing prices (which also increases government property tax revenue) to the point that housing becomes unattainable - and more and more people end up homeless.

Thomas Jefferson is attributed as saying:


"If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all property until their children wake up homeless on the continent their Fathers conquered...I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies... The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs."

It's just as true in Canada as it is in the US.