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jwirecom109
02-26-2014, 09:04 PM
https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn2/t1/1383477_580154932076049_1158505590_n.png


Swiss Arms Confiscated

Effective 10:00 pm eastern tonight the RCMP has reclassified the Swiss Arms Classic Green carbine from non-restricted (and restricted) to prohibited status. There are approximately 1,000 -1,800 of these firearms in the public. The government will not be offering compensation and will be demanding that the firearms, which cost between $3,000 - $4,000 be surrendered. The government is suggesting that all affected firearms owners contact the distributers from which the firearms were purchased for reimbursement.

The NFA encourages all affected owners to contact their federal Member of Parliament.

RobSmith
02-26-2014, 09:07 PM
This ... Will not end well ...

blacksmithden
02-26-2014, 09:16 PM
I don't own one personally....and in all honesty, if you own one, and I were you, I'd shut my mouth right now unless I was b-tching out my MP on a biblical scale for allowing the RCMP to steal private property and run the country. I'm pretty sure I saw each and every one of you guys lose your Swiss in that canoe accident we had last fall didn't I ? Looks like I'll have to change my signature line now.

Waynetheman
02-26-2014, 09:19 PM
http://rsmg.pbsrc.com/albums/v298/508th/0C8B5D97-4E01-4C68-90BC-183B0B7FEC39.png~320x480 just keeping this from the closed thread.

Damn it! Just when I was thinking it wouldn't happen. The Swiss cqb is my dream rig.

ilikemoose
02-26-2014, 09:20 PM
http://www.gardenvisit.com/assets/madge/bulldog_evergreen_spade/600x/bulldog_evergreen_spade_600x.jpg

http://thumbs1.ebaystatic.com/d/l225/m/mLRZ_Jku7i-xHlD0Ziu9_fw.jpg

jwirecom109
02-26-2014, 09:20 PM
Sad Part is I almost bought one yesterday...

Diazjoaquin
02-26-2014, 09:27 PM
Sad Part is I almost bought one yesterday...

No my friend, sad would have been if you bought it and went shooting with it. You are lucky


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

SelectShootingSupplies
02-26-2014, 09:29 PM
Interesting, no bulletin from the RCMP about this, which makes makes me question the authenticity of the information. If this is true they must post it as they did back in March of last year for the BD38 and BD3008.

Maybe they are just slow at posting but until it's posted I am not getting to excited.

Dewey Cox
02-26-2014, 09:31 PM
I don't see anything on the nfa website

killer kane
02-26-2014, 09:32 PM
With any luck, you're right. That being said, we should still raise hell.

Dewey Cox
02-26-2014, 09:33 PM
I want to phone my mp, but I don't want to look like an idiot. (More so than usual.)

Waterloomike
02-26-2014, 09:34 PM
Waterloo region people, I have left a message on Peter Braid's phone. I suggest we all do the same.

Contact
CONTACT PETER

Please share your thoughts with Peter at peter@peterbraid.ca.

Constituency Office — Kitchener-Waterloo
22 King Street S.
Waterloo, ON N2J 1N8
Telephone: (519) 746-1573
Fax: (519) 746-6436
E-mail: Riding (peter.braid.c1@parl.gc.ca)

House of Commons Office — Ottawa
House of Commons
Room 911 Justice Building
Ottawa, Ontario
K1A 0A6
Telephone: (613) 996-5928
Fax: (613) 992-6251
E-mail: Ottawa (peter.braid@parl.gc.ca)

Dewey Cox
02-26-2014, 09:38 PM
All of the announcements I've look like they're from facebook. I'd like to see it somewhere more legit than that before I begin my feet stomping.

Waynetheman
02-26-2014, 09:39 PM
It's not showing on nfas website but here's their Facebook.

https://m.facebook.com/NFACANADA?id=347295135338589&refsrc=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2FNFACANADA

It's public so all should be able to see their post.

Sabio
02-26-2014, 09:40 PM
I thought originally it was a small shipment that was questionable.
Now they prohib all of them.??

So who was the ***** that ratted in the first place.... lets pay him a visit

(((watch the f-bombs please - blacksmithden)))

FlyingHigh
02-26-2014, 09:45 PM
Gonna need confirmation of this from the RCMP and exactly why it's prohibited. I'm drafting a letter to my MP right now.

Strewth
02-26-2014, 09:46 PM
The rat was TSE in Calgary.

I would like more information as well. And then.....? A stern letter?

Waynetheman
02-26-2014, 09:47 PM
^TSE in Calgary.

This iirc.

Ar180shooter
02-26-2014, 10:05 PM
Well f*ck...

exmilitary
02-26-2014, 10:15 PM
One word.



Mayerthorpe

(Explained in replies below here)

killer kane
02-26-2014, 10:17 PM
I hope you mean High River....

stevesummit
02-26-2014, 10:18 PM
Well f*ck...


Couldn't have said it any better myself!!

killer kane
02-26-2014, 10:21 PM
Anyone have the Prime Minister's phone#?

Digger
02-26-2014, 10:28 PM
FFS

harbl_the_cat
02-26-2014, 10:28 PM
This is why voting is for suckers.

None of those MPs care one bit about your property.

Dewey Cox
02-26-2014, 10:28 PM
One word.



Mayerthorpe
I didn't realize that a legally owned swiss arms rifle was used in Mayerthorpe.
(Not trying to bust your chops, just pointing out how absurd this all is)

exmilitary
02-26-2014, 10:38 PM
No, but if one guy (albeit a criminal by any standard) took down 4 RCMP imagine a nation willing to walk the whole "from my cold dead hand* walk actually followed through with their seemingly proud stance went through with their claim. There would be a considerable amount of blood shed.

Mad Hatter
02-26-2014, 10:40 PM
The rat was TSE in Calgary.

I would like more information as well. And then.....? A stern letter?

http://www.theshootingcentre.com/email-to-jr


from: James Bachynsky <james@theshootingcentre.com>
to: “James (JR) Cox” <jamesrc@theshootingedge.com>

date: Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 3:15 PM
subject: SAN rifles
mailed-by: theshootingcentre.com :

JR

It is no secret to anyone that you have initiated an investigation into the legal status of SAN Classic Green rifles imported by this company. Furthermore it has become fairly widely known that you have also forwarded a Classic Green rifle to the RCMP forensics people for examination. While that is certainly your prerogative, it seems that in your zeal you have forgotten the history of these rifles.

I would like to take a moment of your time to remind you of that history. I would also like to warn you that your current course of action seems most likely to end in the prohibition of all SAN rifles, you looking the fool and no criminal charges against this company or its directors.

Do you recall that back in 2000/2001 you met with SAN (Roman Freiermuth) and discussed making the SAN Blue Star “Canada acceptable”?

Do you remember what differences if any existed between the Blue Star and the PE90?

Do you recall what was said to the RCMP forensics people ( in particular Bill Etter) regarding the lineage of the Blue Star rifles?

Surely you still remember that all Blue Star, Black Special, Classic Green and others (your Seasons collection) are the same rifles. Changing the name did not make them different.

What exactly do you expect the forensics people to determine when they examine a Classic Green rifle regardless of source? I am also sure Bill Etter still has his original correspondence from you regarding importation of the rifles and we will certainly be asking for it should this case move forward.

In the end it seems to me that you might have more to worry about having mislead the RCMP in 2001 than we do because we imported a Classic Green rifle that is exactly the same in every respect to those sold by your company for almost a decade.

I don’t see how penalizing sport shooters in Canada will achieve your aims, and I am hoping that you can come to see this too. Please reconsider your actions.

James

harbl_the_cat
02-26-2014, 10:43 PM
Ex-mil - that's awfully extreme, unnecessary, and counter productive.

I would say this is the perfect gift in time for tax season - so instead of fantasizing about a violent resistance that would only lead to a massive government crack down of all firearms ownership, might I suggest considering a non-violent tax revolt.

After all - your taxes pay the interest on the debt the government incurs to pay for the RCMP officers who will be stomping your skull if they catch you with a prohibited rifle. Just let the government default and all these prohibitions will just sort of take care of themselves.


http://www.theshootingcentre.com/email-to-jr

I don't blame JR or James for the debacle. I blame the RCMP and the Federal Government.

Let's be realistic, the RCMP are chomping on the bit to ban as many guns as they can for whatever reason they can. It really shows how screwed up the system is that some RCMP bureaucrat can screw up and then a decade later, because of an interpersonal feud between 5 guys, an entire country full of people have to pay the price for it.

People will quarrel - that's human nature - but the government monopoly of violence combined with sheer disrespect to the right of the private individual to own property is the real problem.

Jewells
02-26-2014, 10:47 PM
One word.



Mayerthorpe

I wish this forum had a "like" button

exmilitary
02-26-2014, 10:50 PM
Ex-mil - that's awfully extreme, unnecessary, and counter productive.

I would say this is the perfect gift in time for tax season - so instead of fantasizing about a violent resistance that would only lead to a massive government crack down of all firearms ownership, might I suggest considering a non-violent tax revolt.

After all - your taxes pay the interest on the debt the government incurs to pay for the RCMP officers who will be stomping your skull if they catch you with a prohibited rifle. Just let the government default and all these prohibitions will just sort of take care of themselves.

I'm not condoning this by any stretch. I have good friends that are in law enforcement. All I'm saying if if these lads follow through with the cold dead hands rhetoric, then stuff could happen.

Personally I have zero interest in the whole Swiss Arms battle. I was merely making an observation.

Mad Hatter
02-26-2014, 10:53 PM
I don't blame JR or James for the debacle. I blame the RCMP and the Federal Government.

Why would he take a firearm that has never been questioned and suddenly decide to send it to the RCMP for the purposes of possible reclassification? He must have known the possible outcome. Even though I have a membership there I don't really think I want to set foot in there again. I'm sure this will be a main topic of discussion this Saturday at Calgary Guns & Coffee.

bettercallsaul
02-26-2014, 10:56 PM
Time to buy a FAMAE.

blacksmithden
02-26-2014, 10:58 PM
One word.



Mayerthorpe

I can't say I know for sure if a Swiss was used at Mayerthorpe. What I can tell you is that if Mayerthorpe is the justification they're going to use to prohibit them, then every other gun that's ever been used in a shooting in Canada is on the chopping block as well. As tragic as Mayerthorpe was, it's still no justification for banning ownership of these rifles. I can think of a crap ton of hunting rifles (my Browning Safari in 300 win mag for one) that will do a lot more damage at the same range. Are they going to ban my favorite moose gun next ?

Mad Hatter
02-26-2014, 10:59 PM
Time to buy a FAMAE.

:confused1:

coastal
02-26-2014, 10:59 PM
I haven't really followed this, but is the swiss arms more evil and mean than other semi auto rifles? What's the reason? Too easy to convert to full auto all of a sudden?

bettercallsaul
02-26-2014, 11:00 PM
:confused1:

If the prohibition is indeed true, the closest thing to a classic SIG available will be the FAMAE SG series.

bettercallsaul
02-26-2014, 11:01 PM
I haven't really followed this, but is the swiss arms more evil and mean than other semi auto rifles? What's the reason? Too easy to convert to full auto all of a sudden?

I'm sure someone else will fill you in on the actual reason (i don't want to go there), but in all reality, it will only upset you & possibly make you lose faith in our government & the RCMP.

Jewells
02-26-2014, 11:03 PM
If there was any faith left to be lost

Ar180shooter
02-26-2014, 11:07 PM
I haven't really followed this, but is the swiss arms more evil and mean than other semi auto rifles? What's the reason? Too easy to convert to full auto all of a sudden?

The RCMP have probably decided it's a Sig 550 variant.

3MTA3
02-26-2014, 11:08 PM
Well at least they got these pure evil death machines out of hands of vetted law abiding citizens before a tragedy oould unfurl It is obvious that these rifles cannot be placed in the hands of ordinary citizens--look at he number of incidences that have already occured!

Forbes/Hutton
02-26-2014, 11:08 PM
The Mayerthorpe tragedy occurred on March 3, 2005, on the property of James Roszko, approximately 11 km (6.8 mi) north of Rochfort Bridge near the Town of Mayerthorpe in the Canadian province of Alberta. With a Heckler & Koch 91, Roszko shot and killed Royal Canadian Mounted Police Constables Peter Schiemann, Anthony Gordon, Lionide Johnston, and Brock Myrol as the officers were executing a property seizure on the farm. This was the worst one-day loss of life for the RCMP in 100 years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mayerthorpe_tragedy

Waynetheman
02-26-2014, 11:14 PM
Keeping an eye elsewhere it seems there's still no frt change.

Dewey Cox
02-26-2014, 11:28 PM
Personally I have zero interest in the whole Swiss Arms battle. I was merely making an observation.

Do you own a gun? If you do, then you DO have an interest in this battle. Don't kid yourself. (now I AM busting your chops)

Canuck
02-26-2014, 11:37 PM
A few questions: Why hasn't the NFA listed their source? Why doesn't it show up on the CFC bulletins? It seems odd to me that there wouldn't be an announcement from the RCMP. So far I can't find one. If true, it's pretty disturbing news but I would like to see something official first.

ReignCzech
02-26-2014, 11:37 PM
Well, first of once the frt#

FRT # 129006 Swiss Arms Black Special Carbine
FRT # 119587 Swiss Arms Black Special
FRT # 119482 Swiss Arms Classic Green
FRT # 124216 Swiss Arms Classic Green Carbine
FRT # 124218 Swiss Arms Classic Green CQB
FRT # 119588 Swiss Arms Heavy Metal
FRT # 119485 Swiss Arms Red Devil
FRT # 119484 Swiss Arms Edition

gets changed for certain in my opinion these would be the following actions:

-the restricted class rifle examples throughout canada will be stripped bare of all parts to serialized receiver, awaiting full clarity of recall/ confiscation of the firearm.
( if need be at the maximum time frame that this issue unfolds out to, the bare stripped receiver serialized registered component can be sent in for destruction only, nothing else, the parts can be sold to recoup $ out by owner, either domestically or internationally, of course within legal parameters to end user, or kept )

from stripped complete parts kits, either properly stripped or front and rear trunion cut receivers, it is possible to mill another receiver to fit an construct another rifle.

-The non-restricted examples, well they mostly don't exist anymore on paper (except quebec) so there's a 50/50 of either stripping them bare also, or cache them in preservation and no compliance.
-wait out the static of the news, the NFA, CSSA, and firearms law lawyers in the following time to come.

-I would not ( if i owned a or some of them :la: ) be calling in to retailers with receipt, to me smells fishy, to record correspondence,... may sound/read kinda paranoid, but better all in all.



I know a couple cops that have already said 'f@ckin blow me' , because they may or may not own a non-resticted variant of the classic green/black, additionally they may or may not be following closely with the above aforementioned.

blacksmithden
02-26-2014, 11:40 PM
Do you own a gun? If you do, then you DO have an interest in this battle. Don't kid yourself. (now I AM busting your chops)

If we don't stop this garbage, eventually they will get down to every gun...it'll just be a matter of time.

leibermuster
02-26-2014, 11:45 PM
Considering a lot of RCMP member's on cgn were selling there's a while back should have given many of you a hint! That is why I didn't pursue buying one. Bad day but more will be banned If this goes through.

leibermuster
02-26-2014, 11:47 PM
If we don't stop this garbage, eventually they will get down to every gun...it'll just be a matter of time.

The game is rigged, were screwed.

Dewey Cox
02-26-2014, 11:50 PM
The game is rigged, we're screwed.

This is the truth.

harbl_the_cat
02-27-2014, 12:18 AM
Why would he take a firearm that has never been questioned and suddenly decide to send it to the RCMP for the purposes of possible reclassification? He must have known the possible outcome. Even though I have a membership there I don't really think I want to set foot in there again. I'm sure this will be a main topic of discussion this Saturday at Calgary Guns & Coffee.

Like I said - him and the owners of CSC have been quarrelling for years. It's human nature.

What's ridiculous though is that the fallout of that quarrel affects all the owners of the rifles from the past decade. Even IF TSE and CSC had NOT been quarrelling, this same situation could have transpired under many different circumstances.

Like I said - I don't blame anyone from CSC or TSE. It's the RCMP's enforcement of stupid laws and regulations established by the Federal Government that is to blame.

leibermuster
02-27-2014, 12:23 AM
Like I said - him and the owners of CSC have been quarrelling for years. It's human nature.

What's ridiculous though is that the fallout of that quarrel affects all the owners of the rifles from the past decade. Even IF TSE and CSC had NOT been quarrelling, this same situation could have transpired under many different circumstances.

Like I said - I don't blame anyone from CSC or TSE. It's the RCMP's enforcement of stupid laws and regulations established by the Federal Government that is to blame.

I somewhat disagree with the wording a little you use.... when they put these laws together they knew stuff like this was going to come out of it, same with gun ranges to a certain extent, they need the restricted members paying their dues so getting rid of restricted hurts there bottom line so many gun clubs have invested interest in keeping the system we have now. The bureaucracies will wear us down all on there own and that is there intention right from the beginning.

There like Witches and Warlocks and when we make a deal with them either way we loose..

Mad Hatter
02-27-2014, 12:33 AM
Like I said - him and the owners of CSC have been quarrelling for years. It's human nature.

What's ridiculous though is that the fallout of that quarrel affects all the owners of the rifles from the past decade. Even IF TSE and CSC had NOT been quarrelling, this same situation could have transpired under many different circumstances.

Like I said - I don't blame anyone from CSC or TSE. It's the RCMP's enforcement of stupid laws and regulations established by the Federal Government that is to blame.

And how does throwing gun owners to the wolves help him in this so called "quarrel"? Seems he shot himself in the foot.

And yes, "could" have. But would not necessarily have.

Canuck
02-27-2014, 12:35 AM
Anything from the CSSA?

Foxer
02-27-2014, 02:12 AM
Originally Posted by leibermuster
The game is rigged, we're screwed.
This is the truth.

No, this is not the truth.

I heard the same sort of talk for many years from people who insisted it was impossible to get rid of the gun registry. Absolutely swore it could never happen. But it did.

The problem isn't that the game is rigged. It isn't. The problem is we don't play the game very well and many and the other side do. To quote an old saying "The fault is not in our stars but in our selves". If we are organized and do the right things, this can be dealt with. If we are really organized and do the right things, we can roll back any number of laws or make any changes necessary to prevent this kind of thing from occurring in the future.

The problem is that too many develop a DeFeudis attitude. I'm not trying to single you out or be rude, but we simply cannot afford to think like this. If you give up that easily we will never win.

Learn how the system works, learn how to play the game, get involved. That's the price of our freedoms. While others are being shot in public squares to defend their rights, surely this isn't too much to ask for ours :)

Remember, at the end of the day all it takes for evil to win is for good men to do nothing.

Brad
02-27-2014, 03:39 AM
Out east if the crown needs your land for some reason (highway, etc) they must pay one and a half times the fair market value. For the life of me I can't see how the RCMP can get away with taking personal property without paying. When drafting your letters call for bare minimum compensation of one and a half the firearms value. I think if the RCMP had to pay out of their budget for this you would see far less of it going on. The Canadian government should never take anything from its citizens without compensation.

I would feel sick if I owned one of these rifles.

3MTA3
02-27-2014, 04:35 AM
Effective 10:00 pm eastern "Feb 26, 2013"
The email I received says 2013 ? (webmaster@gunownersofcanada.ca)
How come I can't find any other info on this?

awndray
02-27-2014, 05:15 AM
I read that same date yesterday on the NFA Facebook post. Something smells fishy. I want proof that this is in effect. This seems like nothing more than NFA sky is falling news again. Show me an official press release. I'm sure the owners of these rifles would also like to know. When there's a recall on a car, the whole world knows about it. Why not let the world know about this, officially?

joshcengelhardt
02-27-2014, 06:38 AM
i for one am getting tired of the rcmp. We need to stand up and say no theres more of us then them anyway?

killer kane
02-27-2014, 07:47 AM
So maybe the rcmp infiltrating a facebook page and stirring things up. With a follow up on pro firearm websites, waiting for things to enflame to the point they could show cause to confiscate ALL semi auto "baby killin machines"? That sounds like something the turd's preferred police force might do.....I wonder?:la:

FlyingHigh
02-27-2014, 07:52 AM
I'm getting tired of three things:

1. The RCMP. My uncle is a Staff Sgt with them and even he says the force is degrading drastically into a gang of thugs.

2. Unsubstantiated news from sources; the NFA, forums etc. If something like this is announced, post concrete confirmation. In this case, I want to see a link to the CFC websites and the RCMP ruling. Just because the NFA posts it on their FB page doesn't make it true unless they also post the documentation to back it up.

3. Gun owners in general. We eat our own. Stop infighting and bickering. It was gun owners feuding that caused this Swiss Arms issue. It's gun owners bickering that keeps us from getting anything done. It's the gun owners that think only their type of gun is worth keeping that hold us all back. Shut up, stop arguing, unite under one cause and get shit done. If you can't do that, you have no business being a gun owner.

dakott
02-27-2014, 07:53 AM
Interesting...just spoke to the Firearms centre and their technician in Ottawa knows nothing about this re-classification except that it maybe on-going. I do not own a Swiss Green or any other centre fire semi-automatic rifle or shotgun and I too wonder why it is not on the RCMP website... A sick joke or vision of what is to come, either way only the verified facts please!!!

dakott
02-27-2014, 07:53 AM
Wow!!! Nice to be call a "junior" again!!!

awndray
02-27-2014, 07:55 AM
...

!!!

Hear, hear!

leibermuster
02-27-2014, 08:09 AM
No, this is not the truth.

I heard the same sort of talk for many years from people who insisted it was impossible to get rid of the gun registry. Absolutely swore it could never happen. But it did.

The problem isn't that the game is rigged. It isn't. The problem is we don't play the game very well and many and the other side do. To quote an old saying "The fault is not in our stars but in our selves". If we are organized and do the right things, this can be dealt with. If we are really organized and do the right things, we can roll back any number of laws or make any changes necessary to prevent this kind of thing from occurring in the future.

The problem is that too many develop a DeFeudis attitude. I'm not trying to single you out or be rude, but we simply cannot afford to think like this. If you give up that easily we will never win.

Learn how the system works, learn how to play the game, get involved. That's the price of our freedoms. While others are being shot in public squares to defend their rights, surely this isn't too much to ask for ours :)

Remember, at the end of the day all it takes for evil to win is for good men to do nothing.

With all due respect, I know how the system works somewhat and have sought out enough higher players to know the fix is in, I'm not saying it isn't possible but CPC was and is our last major current viable tool besides a few other methods to fight with, that being said if Trudeu wins we are really done and CPC keeps moving left. NFA is too small to do anything serious about this stuff and that is the Canadian Firearms communities fault, to few care and most are lazy and just want to stay of the radar. Think what you want but if we are looking for confirmation bias we will get the answers we want, if you look at the big picture we backed the wrong horse, getting the LGR was a toothless victory at best, are the records even destroyed?

cmiller82
02-27-2014, 08:16 AM
Well, the speculation can end. The FRT entries show the Classic Green's, and Blacks as prohibited now.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk

blacksmithden
02-27-2014, 08:23 AM
Well, the speculation can end. The FRT entries show the Classic Green's, and Blacks as prohibited now.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk

And Ed posted this. http://gunownersofcanada.ca/showthread.php?12378-Class-Action-on-the-RCMP-reclassification-of-the-Swiss-Arms-Classic-Green-Rifle

TV-PressPass
02-27-2014, 08:25 AM
Here the mess starts. Anyone got a screencap of that FRT?

For reference:

FRT # 129006 Swiss Arms Black Special Carbine
FRT # 119587 Swiss Arms Black Special
FRT # 119482 Swiss Arms Classic Green
FRT # 124216 Swiss Arms Classic Green Carbine
FRT # 124218 Swiss Arms Classic Green CQB
FRT # 119588 Swiss Arms Heavy Metal
FRT # 119485 Swiss Arms Red Devil
FRT # 119484 Swiss Arms Edition

Drache
02-27-2014, 08:41 AM
Posted an ad on the other site saying I'd buy them for $500 a piece. Ad was removed :p

Really wanted one to hold and call my own

awndray
02-27-2014, 08:41 AM
My question remains, why hasn't the NFA made this clear from the very beginning when they started spreading this news otherwise only known to a few insiders? Why isn't this being shared with the firearms community in a professional and concise manner instead of vague Facebook posts by the NFA? Cripes, if the auto industry can announce a seat-belt recall on the 6 o'clock news, why can't the gun industry or government do the same?


NFA is too small to do anything serious about this stuff and that is the Canadian Firearms communities fault, to few care and most are lazy and just want to stay of the radar. Think what you want but if we are looking for confirmation bias we will get the answers we want, if you look at the big picture we backed the wrong horse, getting the LGR was a toothless victory at best, are the records even destroyed?

I share your sentiments. The NFA is too small. Too few care. Too many are lazy. All of this is true. There is also the important fact that far too many are also ignorant, oftentimes by no fault of their own, or don't necessarily agree with all policies of the pro-gun party. Some people are more worried about budgets, pensions, energy and so on. FlyingHigh (http://gunownersofcanada.ca/member.php?2-FlyingHigh) is absolutely right in saying that firearms owners need to work together - fudds and tacticool commandos alike. dakott (http://gunownersofcanada.ca/member.php?7034-dakott) is also right in saying that we need verified facts. This, in large part, is why I believe the NFA is struggling to get their point across to the uneducated public. There needs to be transparency, but also fact checking. Rehashing old new articles and using social media to sensationalize negative gun news is not doing us any good. We can share all sorts of statistics from studies local and abroad all we want, but we can't get the gun community on the same page (you should see some of the comments from people following the NFA Facebook), we will never win. Make no mistake, government and lobbying are nothing but big business. The firearms industry is just another stream of income for politicians and lawyers.

harbl_the_cat
02-27-2014, 08:47 AM
And how does throwing gun owners to the wolves help him in this so called "quarrel"? Seems he shot himself in the foot.

And yes, "could" have. But would not necessarily have.

The RCMP has a snitch hot line that enables people to make random calls against gun owners, effectively triggering an investigation and giving the RCMP (or any police agency) the power to come and goon anyone. The gun laws give the police (and the authorities) fascist leeway to take peoples guns away.

This HAS NOT CHANGED under the Conservatives - so it's pretty evident it's not going to change at all.

I had my guns personally confiscated in the past because I was in a quarrel with someone else, they called the RCMP snitch line, and a week later a SWAT team was knocking at my door.

What I was feuding about with the other group of people was silly and there never was any possibility of it escalating above simple work place politics - but once the police were involved, that's where the situation escalated and escalated big time.

The problem is the system allows the government to get involved in disputes that should be localized between the individuals (or groups of individuals), and the ramifications are excessive violence and oppression by the government and it's unaccountable agencies.

LIke I said, this is why I don't blame the parties involved - I blame the stupid government.

If there are three things that I think can come from this, I hope:
1) People realize the government is an out of control monster and no amount of lobbying or compliance will ever change it.
2) Former non-restricted Swiss Arms Owners cosmoline, shovel, and shut up until the whole mess blows over.
3) People look for other, creative means to assert change and defend themselves from government violence. My suggestion is learn how to legally avoid paying taxes and exercise every loophole possible to deprive the government of the taxes it needs, to pay the interest on the debt it incurs to pay for pointless bureaucracies like the RCMP CFP.

Number 2 is important - because peaceful non-compliance with bad laws is the only way to change them. This is the only reason the gun registry was abolished (not because of anything the Tories did) - because thousands and thousands of gun owners said "F-off" to the government and either didn't register their guns or bloated the registry with invalid data - knowing full well it was illegal to do so.

If Number 2 doesn't happen - it will send a VERY clear signal that the RCMP can just go around arbitrarily stealing people's guns. If that happens, I'd expect CZ858 owners to be next on the chopping block.

3MTA3
02-27-2014, 08:54 AM
I share your sentiments. The NFA is too small. Too few care. Too many are lazy. All of this is true. There is also the important fact that far too many are also ignorant, oftentimes by no fault of their own, or don't necessarily agree with all policies of the pro-gun party. Some people are more worried about budgets, pensions, energy and so on. FlyingHigh (http://gunownersofcanada.ca/member.php?2-FlyingHigh) is absolutely right in saying that firearms owners need to work together - fudds and tacticool commandos alike. dakott (http://gunownersofcanada.ca/member.php?7034-dakott) is also right in saying that we need verified facts. This, in large part, is why I believe the NFA is struggling to get their point across to the uneducated public. There needs to be transparency, but also fact checking. Rehashing old new articles and using social media to sensationalize negative gun news is not doing us any good. We can share all sorts of statistics from studies local and abroad all we want, but we can't get the gun community on the same page (you should see some of the comments from people following the NFA Facebook), we will never win. Make no mistake, government and lobbying are nothing but big business. The firearms industry is just another stream of income for politicians and lawyers.
I have to pretty much agree.

Waterloomike
02-27-2014, 09:05 AM
So maybe the rcmp infiltrating a facebook page and stirring things up. With a follow up on pro firearm websites, waiting for things to enflame to the point they could show cause to confiscate ALL semi auto "baby killin machines"? That sounds like something the turd's preferred police force might do.....I wonder?:la:
Google this and watch the long list of their history as agent provocateurs:

history of rcmp as agent provocateurs

What you're saying is not only possible, but likely.

cmiller82
02-27-2014, 09:40 AM
Here the mess starts. Anyone got a screencap of that FRT?

For reference:

FRT # 129006 Swiss Arms Black Special Carbine
FRT # 119587 Swiss Arms Black Special
FRT # 119482 Swiss Arms Classic Green
FRT # 124216 Swiss Arms Classic Green Carbine
FRT # 124218 Swiss Arms Classic Green CQB
FRT # 119588 Swiss Arms Heavy Metal
FRT # 119485 Swiss Arms Red Devil
FRT # 119484 Swiss Arms Edition

I don't need to screen cap them all do I? :)

http://i1251.photobucket.com/albums/hh550/Mills888/Swissarmsclassification_zpscab2da26.png (http://s1251.photobucket.com/user/Mills888/media/Swissarmsclassification_zpscab2da26.png.html)

Mad Hatter
02-27-2014, 09:47 AM
The RCMP has a snitch hot line that enables people to make random calls against gun owners, effectively triggering an investigation and giving the RCMP (or any police agency) the power to come and goon anyone. The gun laws give the police (and the authorities) fascist leeway to take peoples guns away.

So who snitched on who so I can decide which range to give or not give my future business to? Whoever did the snitching needs to hurt some as they have done major damage to the gun owners' community by this selfish and childish act.

leibermuster
02-27-2014, 09:47 AM
The continuation of the end....We lost the fight 20 years ago and this will get worse, it only can go that way, the CPC didn't do what they said they would in 2004, we lost there, Harper sold us out a long time ago...he abandoned the Libertarians and real conservatisms it appears and the track record is showing now...

Foxer
02-27-2014, 09:56 AM
With all due respect, I know how the system works somewhat and have sought out enough higher players to know the fix is in, I'm not saying it isn't possible but CPC was and is our last major current viable tool besides a few other methods to fight with, that being said if Trudeu wins we are really done and CPC keeps moving left. NFA is too small to do anything serious about this stuff and that is the Canadian Firearms communities fault, to few care and most are lazy and just want to stay of the radar. Think what you want but if we are looking for confirmation bias we will get the answers we want, if you look at the big picture we backed the wrong horse, getting the LGR was a toothless victory at best, are the records even destroyed?

I understand you feeling that way, I seriously do. And i'm sure given your involvement in the community and forums you have a reasonable working knowledge of how the system works overall, which probably puts you further ahead than about 90 percent of gun owners sadly.

But specifically I mean REALLY understand how the game is played. How to apply pressure, how things get done, how to make politicians work for you. It's no real deep dark secret or anything, but few take the time to really learn it.

And of course, as has been mentioned too few are willing to do what it takes tho i think a lot of that is simply a lack of belief that there is ANYTHING that COULD be done. It's quite understandable that many become discouraged.

THe CPC was and is certainly a very viable tool to move our interests forward. However - you need to understand that the fact they haven't done more for us is our fault more than theirs. What are we doing to make ourselves noticably and practically valuable to them and to put pressure on them for real change? Since the gun registry, very little.

Politicians are predictable. they will always act in what they percieve to be thier own interests. Yet we pass up opportunity to show that WE are in their interests all the time.

Consider this as a single example: there are well over a million gun owners. if even 10 percent of us donated 100 dollars to the CPC, that would represent about half of what they raise in total every year. That alone would be massive - the threat of losing that due to 'bad behavior' on their part would be massive, and the thought of doubling that during election years for good behavior would be huge.

But - we don't do that in a recognizable way. I bet at least 50 thousand of us do donate, but not in a way that they actually recognize as being 'gun owner' donations. So they just get passed off as 'donations'. If we did it the right way, the CPC would bend over backwards to make sure we're happy.

Or consider this - chances are within the next 6 years harper's going to step down even if he wins the next election. That means a new leader will be elected. As a rule, that decision will be made by fewer than 200 thousand CPC members. If even 100 thousand of us signed up for memberships that year, I absolutely guarantee we could pick the next leader, and we could specifically question candidates as to their committment to the firearms community during the race. Think whomever we put in power would owe us a favour or two? :)

If we had even 10 percent of gun owners truly organized we would own this country for the most part. Ask Mark Holland what happens when we DO organize behind something.

But - since the LGR died (and yes, that WAS a major victory no matter how you slice it for many reasons) we haven't been able to put forward ANY united front of any kind on any issues. And lo and behold, support for us has softened.

Even if the libs win, it won't be for long and there's only so much they can do in 4 years. If we are organized and strong, it wouldn't hurt us significantly at all. Sooner or later they (or someone) will get in and that has to be part of our plan. But sadly, we're kind of going along without a plan right now. That COULD change, if we wanted it to.

Waterloomike
02-27-2014, 10:03 AM
Consider this as a single example: there are well over a million gun owners. if even 10 percent of us donated 100 dollars to the CPC, that would represent about half of what they raise in total every year. That alone would be massive - the threat of losing that due to 'bad behavior' on their part would be massive, and the thought of doubling that during election years for good behavior would be huge.

I'll tell you what Foxer. If we can get a pledge drive going, we could initially donate that money, with the caveat that if there is no action on our behalf, they won't get it next time.

I'll pledge $100 right now to just such an action by our crowd right here.

harbl_the_cat
02-27-2014, 10:06 AM
Foxer, the Federal Government and all it's agencies today are a an old family dog that many of us have fond memories of. It's blind in one eye, diabetic, incontinent, and overly aggressive - especially to children. It's a hazard to it's owners (us), particularly to the health and well being of small children.

Every political party is just one vet giving their opinion about what to do with the dog. One says it needs to have the cataracts removed. One says it needs to have it's stomach pumped. One says it needs insulin treatments. All, of course, will require a fee to provide the service and there is also the cost of whatever procedure is needed to keep it alive a little while longer.

At this point, it's illogical, barbaric and inhumane to keep this animal alive. It's time to either euthanize it or let it just die on it's own. Throwing wads of cash at a vet won't keep the dog alive, nor will it improve the situation for either the dog or us, the owners.

When I hear people say "We need to write to our MP's" or "We need to send money to the Conservatives," all I hear are pet owners saying "I need to spend $6000 to keep my dog alive for 3 more months." I think it's pointless and a waste of time.

It's time to get a new dog and let the old dog die.

Foxer
02-27-2014, 10:08 AM
The NFA is too small. Too few care. Too many are lazy. All of this is true. There is also the important fact that far too many are also ignorant, oftentimes by no fault of their own, or don't necessarily agree with all policies of the pro-gun party.

Here's the fix:

1 - the nfa should have paid staff running it with a clear mandate. The members should not elect the president - they should elect a board who hires a president for his/her skills and be held to account for their results.

2 - The focus of the NFA should be narrowed to what we need to do. 1) education and recruitment 2) organization of members into a cohesive body focused on specific achievable goals with appropriate timelines 3) the development of political power tools that will allow the appropriate pressure to be brought to bear (positive and negative pressure) to move that agenda forward. The magazine and the like becomes a distraction and isn't being used as the tool it needs to be.

3 - we need to start believing in ourselves. Look at this thread. Look how many don't believe we can do anything. Do you think the NRA in the states has that attitude? Or that it's members think things are hopeless? You might answer "yes, well they actually get things done", to which i'd reply of course - because their people refuse to believe that ANYTHING is hopeless.

First Nations can organize their people. Unions can. Gays and lesbians can. But for some reason we just can't? It boggles the mind.

The answers are simple enough - it's up to us to work up the willpower to actually do something if we want it. I was told it was impossible to unite the right. We did that. I was told it was impossible to get the CPC elected as gov't. We did that. I was told it was impossible to get rid of the registry. That happened. Do not kid yourself - the impossible is not actually all that hard to achieve, if everyone rows in the same direction

awndray
02-27-2014, 10:12 AM
I don't need to screen cap them all do I? :)
That'll do. You don't have anything to prove. It's the NFA, the RCMP and the Minister of Public Safety that need to show us. But thanks for shedding some light.


...
I appreciate your enthusiasm. I also think that change could happen if we all did our part. The problem I encounter is that I have absolutely no faith in others. I also don't believe that the LGR is truly dead. Therefore, I have no faith in the CPC either. I've stopped donating until they can show why I should donate. I fully understand the concept of if you pay, they will work, but does that really work?

As mentioned in an earlier post, people also need to understand that not all firearms owners want or believe in all other policies that the CPC bring to the table, just like not all granola eating hipsters want or believe in anti-gun policies that other parties promote. It's a tough game to play.

Foxer
02-27-2014, 10:17 AM
It's time to get a new dog and let the old dog die.

What, you're hoping that a young boy will appear and pull excalibur from the stone and lead us to a golden age? :)

Anyway - it's just not true. In many respects we have it better now than we ever did. Those 'fond memories' you speak of for me are of a time when the west had NO power and was raped to win votes in the east, when large corporations ran our gov'ts thru donations, and when the average person could do very little to influence a potlical party.

Those days are largely gone. Quebec and ontario still hold much power, but you cannot win an election any more without significant support in the west. Corporations can no longer donate hundreds of thousands to political parties, it's largely about the donations of the individual (a fact that crippled the libs for many years). And even small groups of united individuals can have influence.

Our problem as i've said is we just aren't playing the game. I can give dozens of examples, but at the end of the day the gov't is what the people make it, and we haven't been doing what we need to in order to shape it as we'd like.

This won't take a miracle. It will just take work, and that's up to us.

leibermuster
02-27-2014, 10:18 AM
(First Nations can organize their people. Unions can. Gays and lesbians can. But for some reason we just can't? It boggles the mind.)

Those groups are funded by big money and used as political tools, we don't have the backing and there are to many people that work for the other side in our ranks..

Waterloomike
02-27-2014, 10:19 AM
Here's the fix:

1 - the nfa should have paid staff running it with a clear mandate. The members should not elect the president - they should elect a board who hires a president for his/her skills and be held to account for their results.

2 - The focus of the NFA should be narrowed to what we need to do. 1) education and recruitment 2) organization of members into a cohesive body focused on specific achievable goals with appropriate timelines 3) the development of political power tools that will allow the appropriate pressure to be brought to bear (positive and negative pressure) to move that agenda forward. The magazine and the like becomes a distraction and isn't being used as the tool it needs to be.

3 - we need to start believing in ourselves. Look at this thread. Look how many don't believe we can do anything. Do you think the NRA in the states has that attitude? Or that it's members think things are hopeless? You might answer "yes, well they actually get things done", to which i'd reply of course - because their people refuse to believe that ANYTHING is hopeless.

First Nations can organize their people. Unions can. Gays and lesbians can. But for some reason we just can't? It boggles the mind.

The answers are simple enough - it's up to us to work up the willpower to actually do something if we want it. I was told it was impossible to unite the right. We did that. I was told it was impossible to get the CPC elected as gov't. We did that. I was told it was impossible to get rid of the registry. That happened. Do not kid yourself - the impossible is not actually all that hard to achieve, if everyone rows in the same direction

I've posted this before, but it seems like a good place to plug it once more.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pdt6Jj64TVU

Foxer
02-27-2014, 10:29 AM
The problem I encounter is that I have absolutely no faith in others. I also don't believe that the LGR is truly dead. Therefore, I have no faith in the CPC either. I've stopped donating until they can show why I should donate. I fully understand the concept of if you pay, they will work, but does that really work?

Yeah well i can't entirely blame you that's for sure. It can be discouraging. Yes, the LGR is dead and the info it contained is more and more useless and out of date with every passing day. That doesn't mean the cops aren't still going to pull the odd 'trick', and we'll have to fight them on that, but i have several recent guns in my collection that I did NOT have to record anywhere and that's a damn big step forward.

And yes, the whole "if you pay they will work" thing does indeed work, and it works very well. But not on an individual by individual basis. Think of this - if you walk into a crowded room and everybody's talking all you hear is noise. Each conversation may be important, but you can't hear it. If, however, that crowd turns and all says the same thing at the same time, the message is deafening and crystal clear. Nothing changed, except the people all said the same thing at once and suddenly it was clear.

That's how this works. Imagine if we could go to the cpc as a group and say "you have not done much for us this year. we're only donating 50 dollars each. Continue to disappoint and that will be lower next year" and then say "this year you really came thru for us, we're donating 150 dollars each". If there were even 50 thousand of us sending that crystal clear message the impact would be huge.

if we just do it as individuals then all they know is that overall donations are down and wonder why.

We also have to modify our expectations. When the LGR was the issue we all spoke with one voice and they KNEW what it would take to make us happy. Now, we don't do that. If we were all pushing for ONE thing (like an end to att's for example) chances are that would happen. Instead we hope they'll fix everything, demand nothing that they could focus on, and are surprised when nothing happens. It's like going into a restaurant and saying "Bring me food" and being upset if the food isn't the food you wanted, or if the waiter just wanders off because he doesn't know how to deal with you. You're more likely to get what you want if you specifically order it :)

awndray
02-27-2014, 10:33 AM
I've posted this before, but it seems like a good place to plug it once more.

[video]

In other words, strength is not necessarily in numbers.

Foxer
02-27-2014, 10:33 AM
Those groups are funded by big money and used as political tools, we don't have the backing and there are to many people that work for the other side in our ranks..

There's about 1.5 million of us. You think we can't get 'big money' funding us? I guarantee you we can. THAT is not our weakness. And our problem is NOT that there's too many working for the other side in our ranks at all. The problem is that there's too few in our ranks working for OUR side.

awndray
02-27-2014, 10:40 AM
Good points, Foxer. I just wish everyone would see it that way. Like you said, those other groups can do it because they all want the same things. As for us, it seems too many want too much. I think many don't even know what they want. Then of course, there is the population that simply isn't well informed.

Foxer
02-27-2014, 10:40 AM
In other words, strength is not necessarily in numbers.

True. often a smaller group of focused individuals will have more power and effect than a large group of unorganized people. In fact - thats largely how the anti's got us in the first place.

However, we can make that work for us. A relatively small group of very organized and focused gun owners can indeed exert a MASSIVE amount of influence IF they do things right.

jwirecom109
02-27-2014, 10:53 AM
The email I received says 2013 ? (webmaster@gunownersofcanada.ca)
How come I can't find any other info on this?

That's me hitting 3 instead of 4 sorry about that

Sent from my XT925 using Tapatalk

Candychikita
02-27-2014, 10:53 AM
Ladies and gentlemen - Ed Burlew (loudmouth) posted a thread about starting a class action lawsuit. Please take a look at this if you have one of the now prohibited firearms - this is a start in the right direction. He needs a name to start the suit, someone personally affected by this change IIRC.

I could be quite mistaken, but I believe once the suit is started certain whole provinces could be included in the suit as an 'opt out' basis...meaning everyone in the province is in on it unless they opt out.

I've started looking into petitioning and getting the Civil Rights Association to pressure the Supreme Court of Canada to re-examine some of the laws and how they affect our rights, but this right here is a PERFECT opportunity to peacefully gather and pick up steam to get us as Canadian gun owners working as a cohesive group for change.

Do we have anyone at GOC who is willing write us a half decent press release for immediate release, to be submitted to our local newspapers/media outlets? To forward all firearms owners, not just owners of the Swiss Arms firearms, to come to GOC and to join the class action lawsuit if they are able.

harbl_the_cat
02-27-2014, 10:58 AM
What, you're hoping that a young boy will appear and pull excalibur from the stone and lead us to a golden age? :)

Anyway - it's just not true. In many respects we have it better now than we ever did. Those 'fond memories' you speak of for me are of a time when the west had NO power and was raped to win votes in the east, when large corporations ran our gov'ts thru donations, and when the average person could do very little to influence a potlical party.

Those days are largely gone. Quebec and ontario still hold much power, but you cannot win an election any more without significant support in the west. Corporations can no longer donate hundreds of thousands to political parties, it's largely about the donations of the individual (a fact that crippled the libs for many years). And even small groups of united individuals can have influence.

Our problem as i've said is we just aren't playing the game. I can give dozens of examples, but at the end of the day the gov't is what the people make it, and we haven't been doing what we need to in order to shape it as we'd like.

This won't take a miracle. It will just take work, and that's up to us.

I wasn't alive or voting age during the time frames you mentioned - and to me, I am incapable of empathizing with the position of how things were vs how things are.

To me - there is only how things are today.

What this incident demonstrates unequivocally is that today - big, expensive, unaccountable bureaucracies run the government, not the elected political parties - and that is an abomination.

If agencies like the RCMP can make elected officials dance like puppets, there is no point giving elected officials a minute or a nickel. They are worthless and they can't do anything.

Just look at the government finances, the state of the Canadian economy and of the world economy. Canada's largest trade partner is entering into one of the biggest economic DEPRESSIONS in 4 generations. Every moment, every nickel, every resource spent on a political party is a moment not spent preparing for the coming turbulent economic times and if anything, serves to embolden those worthless politicians that they are the solution to the problem (which they created, by the way).

I say the odds of the Federal Government defaulting on it's debt load and either ceasing to exist or substantially restructuring are MUCH higher than the CPC reigning in the RCMP, abolishing C68 and rewriting the Criminal Code.

I sure as heck won't - but maybe if anyone is willing to talk to their MP you copy this EXACT post and tell them this. Those politicians to me are worthless parasites, collecting $150,000 - $300,000 pay cheques from extorted funds, while institutions set up by other parasitic politicians 10-20 years ago get free reign to terrorize the rest of us.

Until this situation changes - they can only expect more and more of the populace to come to this realization.

stevesummit
02-27-2014, 10:59 AM
I pm'ed Ed and will be waiting for a reply

FlyingHigh
02-27-2014, 11:00 AM
Ok, now that the FRT has been confirmed, I need to know exactly why this gun was prohibited. I haven't followed this battle too closely but I'm planning to raise some hell with my MP and need some solid facts to go on.

RobSmith
02-27-2014, 11:11 AM
There was some explanations posted awhile ago regarding that. Long story short one dealer called the RCMP regarding another dealer possibly selling rifles disguised as Classic Greens that may have started life as prohibs. RCMP lab got hold of some samples and sure enough they noticed some minute differences between some batches of receivers. These rifles had been obtained as factory refurbs, but it turns out that they were different (more modern) rifles that had been brought to Classic Green standards. I guess in the end the RCMP decided that was reason enough to reclassify the whole lot.


Ok, now that the FRT has been confirmed, I need to know exactly why this gun was prohibited. I haven't followed this battle too closely but I'm planning to raise some hell with my MP and need some solid facts to go on.

harbl_the_cat
02-27-2014, 11:11 AM
Not sure if this is a repost, but succinctly expresses why the entire system is a broken as well as some of the background. I think PressPass has a great write up from a few months back as well.

In my line of work (and I suspect in most people's lines of work that involve producing something of real, tangible value) when you are working with something that is fundamentally broken at it's foundations - there reaches a point where the cost associated with fixing and maintaining it makes it justifiable to just throw it away and start over. This IS the current system of government in Canada.

What is needed is a controlled demolition of this old, rotting, dangerous building and the establishment of a new system of government that is grounded in logic and reason. There is no reforming this.

http://o.canada.com/news/national/canadas-gun-classification-system-called-deeply-flawed/


Canada’s gun-classification system called ‘deeply flawed’

At James Cox’s gun store in Calgary, there are eight rifles imported from Switzerland that he’d love to put up for sale, but they’re sitting in a vault.

That’s because the Mounties have spent months reviewing whether the entire line of Swiss Arms-brand sporting rifles, which have circulated in Canada for more than a decade as either restricted or non-restricted firearms, should be reclassified as prohibited.

Cox and other gun enthusiasts don’t understand why the review — whose outcome could affect hundreds, possibly thousands, of gun owners — has dragged on. They say the case illustrates how the gun classification system is “deeply flawed” and lacking in transparency.

“They have to make a decision and stick to it,” Cox said.

RCMP officials refused an interview request and did not respond to several written questions after more than two days.

In a short statement, they said “new information” had prompted the review and the matter was being examined “thoroughly.” The guns’ manufacturer and importers have been contacted to “obtain all pertinent information.”

If they ban the guns, compensating owners could be costly. Each one runs about $4,000, according to an RCMP briefing note obtained by Postmedia News.

The problem is authorities don’t know exactly how many owners there are. They know there are 301 restricted Swiss Arms rifles registered in Canada, but they don’t know how many non-restricted ones there are because of the end of the long-gun registry.

Cox estimates there are more than 2,000, which, if true, could cost the government $8 million in buy backs.

The RCMP has reversed the legal status of guns before. In 2012, the Sport Systeme Dittrich BD38 and 3008 firearms were reclassified from restricted to prohibited after regulators physically inspected them.

Typically the RCMP makes its initial assessment of a new firearm based on descriptions provided by the manufacturer or importer, according to a bulletin last year. “If the initial assessment indicates the firearm may be high-risk, or the information provided is incomplete, an inspection of the firearm may be required.”

The government compensated 71 owners $219,447.22 for their loss.

Jean-Christophe de Le Rue, a spokesman for the public safety minister, said this week the government has “no plans to broadly reclassify firearms.”

“Our government is committed to standing up for law-abiding hunters, farmers and sport shooters,” he said. “We will always ensure that gun owners are treated fairly.”

Ironically, it was a call that Cox made to the Mounties last year about a possible counterfeit firearm that triggered the broader review of Swiss Arms rifles.

Someone came into Cox’s store, The Shooting Edge, wanting to trade in a Swiss Arms rifle. Cox said as soon as he saw it, he knew something was “bogus.”

From 2001 to 2008, Cox imported Swiss Arms rifles — models like the Classic Green and Black Special — and came to know their “impeccable” workmanship.

The one brought into his store had “mismatched colours” and looked “beat up.” He concluded that the rifle was a variant of an old Swiss Arms SG550, which is prohibited in Canada, that had been refurbished to look like a Classic Green.

Cox said he felt obligated to call authorities. “If somebody comes in here with an illegal gun you can’t just turn your back,” he said.

The gun had come from a rival business, The Shooting Centre, owned by James Bachynsky, Cox’s ex-business partner with whom he had a falling out. But Cox insisted that was not his motivation for alerting police.

Bachynsky confirmed that the 16 Swiss Arms rifles he imported had started off as PE90s, semi-automatic versions of the prohibited SG550s, but that he had directed Swiss Arms to “make ‘em the same” as all the other rifles the company had delivered to Canada over the years. They were “identical,” he said.

Bachynsky produced a letter from the CEO of Swiss Arms confirming that the company met “exactly the specifications of the Swiss Arms Classic Green rifle” that had been established since 2001.

“If there’s no difference how can I be treated differently?” Bachynsky said.

Cox said it didn’t matter what the specifications were. At their core, they were still variants of the SG550s. It’s the lineage that counts — “a pig is still a pig.”

But Cox’s complaint had the unintended consequence of snowballing into a probe of the entire line of Swiss Arms rifles — including the ones he had imported to Canada.

In an email to Cox last May, William Etter, chief firearms technologist at the RCMP, wrote that their investigation had “cast doubt” on the legal status of all the Swiss Arms rifles in Canada and that their lineage “may have been misrepresented” when they were originally imported.

“The most generous interpretation of our research” would be that they are all are variants or modified versions of the prohibited SG550 rifle, the email said.

He tasked Cox with providing evidence to show otherwise.

Cox said he was floored. These guns have been around for 12 years and now you’re going to ban them?

Cox flew to Switzerland to meet with Swiss Arms officials to compile a report, which he says showed that all the rifles that he had imported were variants of the SG540, not the prohibited SG550.

He said he provided much of the same documentation to RCMP when he originally imported the firearms in 2001. They didn’t bother with a physical inspection back then but have samples of the guns now, he said.

Despite telling Cox last May they wanted to resolve the matter in a “timely manner,” RCMP have not reached a conclusion.

Businesses say the wait is eating into profits.

Cox said he’s withheld Swiss Arms guns from display in his store pending the decision. Rob Cook, manager at MD Charlton, a B.C. company that took over imports of Swiss Arms rifles last year, said it has suspended those imports.

Bachynsky publicly chastised his ex-business partner last year, posting online an email he had sent to Cox warning that his “current course of action seems most likely to end in the prohibition of all (Swiss Arms) rifles, you looking the fool and no criminal charges against this company or its directors.”

Despite the bad blood between them, Cox and Bachynsky agree current firearms regulations are illogical and vague.

“Two firearms with the exact same capabilities — size, weight, operating systems, magazine capacity — one could be restricted the other one could be prohibited,” Bachynsky said.

How do you truly judge whether a gun is a “variant” of a prohibited weapon? Or whether one can “easily be converted into fully automatic?”

Cox said he’d like better oversight, including industry input, over the RCMP’s gun classification decisions.

“There’s no consistency in the determination whatsoever. Nobody’s held them accountable,” he said.

BrotherRockeye
02-27-2014, 11:20 AM
Ok, now that the FRT has been confirmed, I need to know exactly why this gun was prohibited. I haven't followed this battle too closely but I'm planning to raise some hell with my MP and need some solid facts to go on.

this may help:

http://www.theshootingcentre.com/sans-overview

Prairie Dog
02-27-2014, 11:23 AM
This stinks on so many levels. Obviously for any Swiss Arms owners and for everybody else as well because you don't know what will be reclassified next.

FlyingHigh
02-27-2014, 11:44 AM
this may help:

http://www.theshootingcentre.com/sans-overview

Perfect, that's exactly what I needed.

superbrad
02-27-2014, 12:01 PM
I see a lot of anger towards RCMP an dthe Government and rightfully so... I see talk of class action suits etc....perhaps also rightfully so.... that being said, I think the first step is a mass boycott against TSE... pretty disgusting what they did to the shooting community...

FlyingHigh
02-27-2014, 12:07 PM
Letter drafted and posted in GOC Letters thread for peer review before submission.

May I also officially add that TSE will never ever see a penny from me, and I will make every effort to ensure others take their money elsewhere as well.

Camo tung
02-27-2014, 12:15 PM
Prohibited by the stroke of a pen, no compensation and be prepared to hand them over on demand. Sounds like the Gestapo has been reborn.

No sense wasting time or effort on blame, those involved will be dealt with later. Now is the time to fight to overturn this decision and to prevent the same from happening to other FRT#'s. Get busy writing your MP's, even those of us who do not own a Swiss Arms product. Property Rights is the principle.

Angel 45
02-27-2014, 12:15 PM
So anybody organizing any form of protest besides sending complain letters to our MP's which most of them are not incline to do something about this matter. Does NFA doing anything about it? To my brothers and sisters in the firearm community who is being affected with this non sense and another ploy of lawful theft please dig up! And dig deep after all the RCMP claims they don't know how many is out there besides the restricted variants of 300. I have seen a comment of one firearm owner, his argument or suggestion is; is it possible to give the affected owners a prohibited license or grandfathering the firearm. Would it be a temporary solution or is it valid?

TV-PressPass
02-27-2014, 12:16 PM
We could certainly blame The Shooting Edge’s tattletaling, or the RCMP’s incompetence, or the Calgary Shooting Center’s over-zealousness, or Swiss Arm’s own blindness.

But I’d argue that the real problem here is the firearms act itself. The Swiss Arms Debacle clearly shows us that banning a gun based on its name or looks has no effect on public safety. Consider what this classification means at its most basic level:

These rifles, in the same category as AK-47s, have been freely owned and shot for the past 12 years, and now the majority of them aren’t even registered. And yet, to my knowledge, these prohibited firearms have not been used in a single crime. Canada has not spent a decade stricken with gun violence because these firearms were on the street.

The Swiss Arms debacle should be a core reason for the prohib list to be repealed. The orders in council that established a list of prohibited firearms were completely arbitrary, and not effective.

killer kane
02-27-2014, 12:23 PM
All true. Local get togethers, unified action. We all have to pull together now, I'm up for local protests. And am good to go with donations to put a stop to the actions of the rcmp, I'll be talking to my wife tonight and we'll be going in and talking to Linda Duncan in the near future. dipper or not, even she has to realise that we're( Gun owner) a force

harbl_the_cat
02-27-2014, 12:24 PM
Frankly, I don't want to get involved or take sides in the dispute between CSC or TSE and I don't think anyone should either.

Over the years TSE has provided a great service to the local community. CSC also provides a great service to the community as well and the local community AND broader shooting community benefit from having both organizations.

Even though this development is proving to have blown up and appears to have resulted from some poorly made decisions starting from TSE, I think the important thing to realize is that picking sides can only make the this bad situation even worse. After all - if I were a Swiss Arms owner, neither CSC or TSE will be the ones threatening me with jail time over procuring personal property purchased with a clear conscience. That entirely is an unnecessary government bureaucracy's doing.

To those who are disconnected from the situation, the break up and ongoing tensions between the owners at CSC and TSE over the years has been a bit of an escalating cold war which really emphasizes the importance of not antagonizing and not falling out with ANYONE. The gun laws in Canada are DESIGNED to utilize these sorts of falling outs to clamp down on gun ownership BECAUSE the government knows full well they eventually will happen to EVERYONE.

It's been sad over the years watching the back and fourth between the two organizations - but it most certainly has been a MUTUAL conflict with both sides taking swipes at each other. This is EXACTLY why I think it's important NOT to take sides because that WILL only exacerbate the situation.

I've watched right from the beginning the rift between the two groups and while I haven't been partial to or know about all of what happened behind the scenes, I will say stones have been thrown by both sides and while it does appear that JR's actions of reporting the rifle to the RCMP appears to have been the origin of this conflict, it is pretty evident that it was simply one action taken as a part of an ongoing feud between the two groups.

Quite honestly having watched this feud, I don't think given the opportunity to do so that some of the parties at CSC wouldn't have done something of a similar magnitude - which is most unfortunate but really underscores the importance as an outsider of NOT PARTICIPATING IN THE DISPUTE.

Now, I shoot at (and will continue to shoot at and patron) TSE. I think it's a great, well run facility and I am friends with lots of the staff there - so yes, I am biased towards TSE. I like sighting my rifles in at 50 yards without driving an hour (to me, only a 100 and 200 yard shoot justifies an hour long drive) and TSE is the only facility in Calgary that provides that opportunity.

So quite literally, a boycott of TSE would be a boycott of a 50 yard rifle range inside Calgary city limits, which regardless of anyone's feelings towards any of the parties involved - is a very serious and very negative proposition. Calgary just lost one of the biggest private ranges within city limits in recent years (thanks again to government).

The loss of another range would be catastrophic to the Calgary shooting community. If anyone complains about congestion at any of their local ranges - just imagine how bad it will get if the hundreds of shooters who are served by TSE suddenly don't have a home to shoot. If anyone complains about "the idiots who shoot over there," imagine what will happen when "those idiots" don't have a place to shoot and come to YOUR range. I CANNOT emphasize it enough - turning on a member of the community because of idiotic government regulations is a self defeating proposition and will only escalate the situation.

That said, the unfortunate landscape of the ridiculous bureaucratic/legal system in Canada have made this development unavoidable NOT the dispute between the owners of both ranges. Channelling an iota of rage towards either parties only detracts from where the rage rightfully should be directed - on the RCMP and on the Federal government.

Here's some other food for thought. A boycott of TSE would mean a boycott of Target Sports Canada (in Toronto) - they have the same owner. If you REALLY wanted to destroy the firearms community in Canada, you would shut down "open to the public" ranges in major Canadian urban centres. I don't know if anyone from Toronto/Ontario can chime in - but how many ranges in that area serve the general public, allowing them to shoot handguns within city limits? How would the community over there benefit if Target got shut down?

I don't want to cry conspiracy here, but no one will EVER know the decision making process at the RCMP Firearms Lab - most certainly though, this lab does NOT exist to serve the Canadian firearms community and I'm sure the same anti-gun bureaucrats within the highest echelons of government recognize this.

The REAL enemy here is those government bureaucrats and the institutions they manage.

If they know that members of the shooting community can be turned on one another through strategic and arbitrary rulings like this one - guess what, you've now armed these gun grabbing pencil pushers with a powerful tool to attack the entire community.

Edenchef
02-27-2014, 12:47 PM
I've been reading the postings on this and I think it's time for my $.02 worth. I see an alternate scenario possible here. Imagine the CPC has allowed the ArrrrCMP pretty much free-rein in their application of the FA lately; a great way to "feed them rope", so to speak. The have become increasingly draconian in their application and pretty much revealed their "disarmament agenda" for all(even non-owners) to see. They have become much more arrogant and confidant in their position of unrestrained power; doing more and more outrageous things(High River, etc). The CPC is just waiting for the right incident, at the right moment; to yank hard on the reins. In typical politician fashion, they are not committing to any course of action until they are certain it will get them votes; sustain their power. They want to gauge just how far we(gun owners) can be pushed, before we unite and rise up in protest, against the "Thugs in Red". They can then swoop in as the great "savior" of legal, Canadian citizen gun owners and rescue us from the "Red Menace", who would steal our legally acquired and owned guns. The points I am reading here are all very valid; it is time for us to unite and rise up peacefully against this attack. As "brothers in arms" we need to put aside all our petty differences and unite behind the fact that if we don't.......today it's the Swiss Arms, eventually it's our exempted flintlocks and antiques. All without compensation or recourse.

This scenario goes a long way to explaining the lack of action by CPC on things like High River. They are sitting back waiting and watching us. They are watching which fork to take in the path; either way they win. If we rise up together against this, they step in and win our loyalty and support; if we do nothing, they watch the ArrrCMP systematically disarm us, to the point were they can pretty much do as they please. At the same time the ArrrCMP are just giving them(CPC) even more reason to yank the chain, of the "watchdog".

I believe we stand on the precipice. On one side we have our freedom to own and enjoy our guns; on the other side we all become "enemies of the state", to be systematically hunted down and disarmed. JMHO.

"From my cold dead hands" I have now declared my position. Time to inundate our parliamentarians with emails, letters, and personal visits. It is time for ALL us us to stand up and be counted or sit quietly "with folded hands" and wait for the knock on the door.

Cheers!

Waterloomike
02-27-2014, 12:52 PM
There's about 1.5 million of us. You think we can't get 'big money' funding us? I guarantee you we can. THAT is not our weakness. And our problem is NOT that there's too many working for the other side in our ranks at all. The problem is that there's too few in our ranks working for OUR side.

It's like herding cats.

Waterloomike
02-27-2014, 12:54 PM
In other words, strength is not necessarily in numbers.

Precisely.

for instance, most revolutions begin with a small group of focused dedicated individuals with a few goals and one central goal.

The same as any political movement.

jwirecom109
02-27-2014, 01:00 PM
It's like herding cats.

Laser pointers work great . The swiss arms just maybe our laser pointer

Sent from my XT925 using Tapatalk

Waterloomike
02-27-2014, 01:06 PM
Laser pointers work great . The swiss arms just maybe our laser pointer

Sent from my XT925 using Tapatalk

It might if we make it that way.

To the thread in general and everyone in particular:

Has anyone responded to Candychikita?


Ladies and gentlemen - Ed Burlew (loudmouth) posted a thread about starting a class action lawsuit. Please take a look at this if you have one of the now prohibited firearms - this is a start in the right direction. He needs a name to start the suit, someone personally affected by this change IIRC.

I could be quite mistaken, but I believe once the suit is started certain whole provinces could be included in the suit as an 'opt out' basis...meaning everyone in the province is in on it unless they opt out.

I've started looking into petitioning and getting the Civil Rights Association to pressure the Supreme Court of Canada to re-examine some of the laws and how they affect our rights, but this right here is a PERFECT opportunity to peacefully gather and pick up steam to get us as Canadian gun owners working as a cohesive group for change.

Do we have anyone at GOC who is willing write us a half decent press release for immediate release, to be submitted to our local newspapers/media outlets? To forward all firearms owners, not just owners of the Swiss Arms firearms, to come to GOC and to join the class action lawsuit if they are able.

superbrad
02-27-2014, 01:07 PM
I've watched right from the beginning the rift between the two groups and while I haven't been partial to or know about all of what happened behind the scenes, I will say stones have been thrown by both sides and while it does appear that JR's actions of reporting the rifle to the RCMP appears to have been entirely his fault, it is pretty evident that it was simply one action taken as a part of an ongoing feud between the two groups.

Now, I shoot at (and will continue to shoot at and patron) TSE. I think it's a great, well run facility and I am friends with lots of the staff there - so yes, I am biased towards TSE. I like sighting my rifles in at 50 yards without driving an hour minutes (to me, only a 100 and 200 yard shoot justifies an hour long drive) and TSE is the only facility in Calgary that provides that opportunity. So quite literally, a boycott of TSE would be a boycott of a 50 yard rifle range inside Calgary city limits, which regardless of anyone's feelings towards any of the parties involved - is a very serious and very negative proposition (Calgary just lost one of the biggest ranges within city limits in recent years. The loss of another range would be catastrophic to the Calgary shooting community).



Your arguments are fundamentally flawed Harbl.... We as gun owners all know of the bureacracy and BS that constitutes todays gun laws... TSE is fully aware of these idiotic laws and yet were more than happy to use them to "stick it" to their rival in their petty feud while throwing the law abiding gun owner under the bus in the process... If you are willing to fight for your freedom as a gun owner then you have to be willing to fight against every organization public or private that threatens that freedom... I have no interest in participating in a feud between rival businesses either, but when one of the participants takes action to remove my freedoms it is no longer about their feud, it is now about me.... The law abiding gun owner....

Your continued support of them and their shooting facility only serves to show that you are willing to sacrifice principles for convenience....

harbl_the_cat
02-27-2014, 01:17 PM
Your arguments are fundamentally flawed Harbl.... We as gun owners all know of the bureacracy and BS that constitutes todays gun laws... TSE is fully aware of these idiotic laws and yet were more than happy to use them to "stick it" to their rival in their petty feud while throwing the law abiding gun owner under the bus in the process... If you are willing to fight for your freedom as a gun owner then you have to be willing to fight against every organization public or private that threatens that freedom... I have no interest in participating in a feud between rival businesses either, but when one of the participants takes action to remove my freedoms it is no longer about their feud, it is now about me.... The law abiding gun owner....

Your continued support of them and their shooting facility only serves to show that you are willing to sacrifice principles for convenience....

So you're saying everyone should just accept the bureaucratic BS and crawl our way around them like cockroaches?

As I said - this entire system is designed to exploit human nature to clamp down on gun ownership. Cries for a unified community are good - but they are unrealistic. As long as you have two people in a room (or internet forum) together - you are going to have conflict.

The laws as they are written are DESIGNED to take the fact that those conflicts exists and prohibit gun ownership because of it.

Now I ask you - with the broad community of gun businesses, do you not think there are any two out there who might get into a feud with each other? Do you not think a gun business might realize that a competitor could be shut down by simply calling in the government bureaucracy in on them, and given a strategic opportunity to do so - would capitalize on it?

There was an RCMP report published a few months back which effectively described the classification progress. The reality is most guns DON'T get physically inspected by the RCMP. This means ANY GUN at ANY POINT IN TIME for ANY REASON can get submitted to the RCMP for review and face the prospect of being reclassified. I suspect many guns (including many widely owned ones) out there would probably be reclassified if one of the RCMP lab rats ever got their hands on one.

This is a fundamental fault of the SYSTEM, and this system MUST be changed.

When you have a problem with dandelions, you don't just mow over the flower and leaves and hope they go away.

You dig up the root - and the root of the problem here is that the classification system is designed to prohibit gun ownership - period.

This is a very emotional development, I get that. But blind rage won't solve the problem. Rational, strategic thought will.

Mad Hatter
02-27-2014, 01:23 PM
Originally Posted by Foxer
There's about 1.5 million of us. You think we can't get 'big money' funding us? I guarantee you we can. THAT is not our weakness. And our problem is NOT that there's too many working for the other side in our ranks at all. The problem is that there's too few in our ranks working for OUR side.

From who? The corporate sector is too afraid of being chastised and worse by the government and afraid of having sanctions imposed on their sale of arms in Canada. Why else can't the NFA get funding to become what they should be; a dedicated corporation in the business of pushing for firearms rights in Canada. They certainly can't seem to get enough support from gun owners. They have to raffle off guns to get membership. Same with GOC. Most members are here for the graft and swag and don't contribute to the real reason for this forum. So sad, but so typical.

Ben
02-27-2014, 01:33 PM
Firstly, if anyone here is willing to give TSE another dime I'd like to know as my list of Ignored Users will be used. I simply cannot fathom the idea of anyone supporting them and truly hope that their business crumbles enough for him to put a lock on the door.

Secondly, if I still owned my SAN, I would NEVER turn it in. I would take it apart, upper/lower, purchase a gallon of cosmoline, some commercial quality vacuum sealable bags, heavy duty PCV piping and would bury them in separate locations if need be. GPS and memorise the location(s). Last step, STFU and never mention it until the decision gets reversed. I know its easy for me to say as I don’t own one anymore, but I can guarantee you that I wouldn’t be turning it in.

superbrad
02-27-2014, 01:34 PM
So you're saying everyone should just accept the bureaucratic BS and weasel our way around it like vassals?

Where did I say this?... I am all for fighting the bureaucracy... I am also all for standing up against anyone who uses it to harm th erights of legal gun owners

As I said - this entire system is designed to exploit human nature to clamp down on gun ownership. Cries for a unified community are good - but they are unrealistic. As long as you have two people in a room (or internet forum) together - you are going to have conflict.

And this excuses the actions of TSE how? the "community" is only as strong as it's weakest link... TSE is obviously a weak link...

The laws as they are written are DESIGNED to take the fact that those conflicts exists and prohibit gun ownership because of it.

Agreed... don't you think TSE knows this as well?

Now I ask you - with the broad community of gun businesses, do you not think there are any two out there who might get into a feud with any other? Do you not think a gun business might realize that a competitor could be shut down by simply calling in the government bureaucracy in on them, and given a strategic opportunity to do so - would capitalize on it?

Yes... I do... and should any other business execute what TSE did or what you describe above, I would not give any of them a cent of my money either and would encourage others to go down the same route....

There was an RCMP report published a few months back which effectively described the classification progress. The reality is most guns DON'T get physically inspected by the RCMP. This means ANY GUN at ANY POINT IN TIME for ANY REASON can get submitted to the RCMP for review and face the prospect of being reclassified. I suspect many guns (including many widely owned ones) out there would probably be reclassified if one of the RCMP lab rats ever got their hands on one.

So why would a gun owner, a gun rights advocate or a gun business gicve them one if not to satisfy personal pettiness?... my point exactly....

This is a fundamental fault of the SYSTEM, and this system MUST be changed.

When you have a problem with dandelions, you don't just mow over the flower and leaves. You pull out the root - and the root of the problem is that the classification system is designed to prohibit gun ownership - period.

As a lone person I don't have the power to eliminate dandelion spores from floating through the air and creating dandelions in everybody's lawns... but if each landowner dug up and destroyed every dandelion that popped up on their lawn there would be quite a few less spores floating around and quite a few less dandelions..wouldn't there be?... Just because there is a bigger system at fault doesn't mean we shouldn't be doing something about each of the individual parties that play into it...


At the end of the day TSE is a problem.... They sold legal gun owners out for their own gain and shoud suffer the consequences of their actions....

leibermuster
02-27-2014, 01:39 PM
TSE is not the first company to do this by a long shot!

Mad Hatter
02-27-2014, 01:43 PM
At the end of the day TSE is a problem.... They sold legal gun owners out for their own gain and shoud suffer the consequences of their actions....gun owners have just been thrown under the bus by one of their own. The consequences as they relate for places to shoot in Calgary because of it? It would give the remaining ranges enough new business to expand.

harbl_the_cat
02-27-2014, 01:59 PM
At the end of the day TSE is a problem.... They sold legal gun owners out for their own gain and shoud suffer the consequences of their actions....

I don't deny that the outcome of reporting the rifles had the effect of harming gun owners, but don't believe that it was JR's intention and if not for the existing government bureaucracy right now, none of this would have happened.

TSE and CSC could have the most epic of falling outs, but if there wasn't the added layer of men from the government with a monopoly on guns and the authority to meddle into the affairs of every private individual, none of this would have impacted anyone else.

I have no doubt there will be consequences to TSE for this development, but you also have to remember that TSE as an organization is a BIG player in the Calgary and Canadian firearms market and community. Locally, they host IPSC and IDPA matches, they host big fund raisers, they introduce hundreds if not thousands of people to shooting (I personally got my first gun there and have introduced a few hundred people to shooting while both working and shooting there as a club member).

I'm also biased because JR donated thousands of dollars of material support as well as the moral support to help set-up charity events and youth programs for the non-profit club I volunteer with (when asked, the owners at CSC declined, but I don't hold that against them personally).

This situation is a major fluster cuck, and I'm not denying the fact that JR's calling in the RCMP snowballed into it. I don't know his motivations and I can't speak for him, but I don't think he was sitting in his office saying "he he he... let's prohibit all the Swiss Arms Rifles my business has sold over the past decade." However, I have seen a lot of the conflict between him and the owners of CSC have had, and I KNOW there was a connection.

All I'm saying is two groups of people of people turning against one another is the root cause of this issue, but such is human nature. Knowing human nature, the government has put in systems to exploit the fact that individuals will turn on each other - and do so to control them (in this case, prohibit gun ownership). That is the linear progression of events that lead us to where we are today.

That bears the question - what is easier to change? Human nature or government systems? The answer is obvious - government systems.

The question is how?

Answering that, I don't believe effectively turning on one of the most influential members of the community will accomplish that goal. I would much rather do business with TSE than with the Federal Government in that regard and in fact, I think that is the key to actually bringing about this kind of change. In fact - turning on them is EXACTLY what the government wants us to do, as doing so will do a great deal of harm to the entire community (far more harm than prohibiting the 2000 Swiss Arms Rifles).

Mistakes were made by the parties involved. While immediately it may seem that the critical one was JR's submitting the rifle to the RCMP, it's unrealistic to say everyone involved didn't similarly make mistakes that contributed to this entire thing getting out of control.

That said, I don't think this is the kind of mistake that should merit the destruction of either of organizations involved, but is greater justification for the destruction of the real organization that is doing the real harm (the RCMP and the Federal Government's ridiculous bureaucracy).


gun owners have just been thrown under the bus by one of their own. The consequences as they relate for places to shoot in Calgary because of it? It would give the remaining ranges enough new business to expand.

Maybe existing gun owners for a while - but what about future gun owners and what about in the future?

Alberta has one of the largest per-population community of gun owners AND the most pro-gun sentiment in the country for a reason: Private ranges where people have access to shoot.

Besides Calgary and Edmonton, what other Canadian city has 2 large, indoor shooting ranges where random people off the street can just go and shoot? Let me tell you from my experiences working at TSE a few years ago - there literally were times I had to turn walk-ons away because there was a 3-4 hour long wait to use the range. I also know that many of the walk-ons I RO'd for later went on to become some of the biggest gun-nuts I've ever met.

Opening up a range like CSC and TSE isn't a trivial task. I looked into doing it myself, and it wasn't viable from a cost perspective as it is an unbelievably risky business venture to pursue. That said, businesses like TSE and CSC are NECESSARY for the continued preservation and growth of the entire shooting community. I would say they are THE most important organizations there are.

I also would say the quality of service and the experience of being a gun owner has significantly improved after both ranges opened. It was almost guaranteed you could not shoot at the ranges if you were a member at TSE before CSC opened, but now it's pretty rare that the range is so busy with walk-ons that you can't make it in. Business seems brisk - but it's not overwhelming. I've seen both of their business models and while I lean more towards TSE's equal treatment of walk-on's and members over CSC's approach to give their members top priority - I think they are both sound, there is room enough for both models, and they both contribute to the health of the entire community.

Again I reiterate, this is a massive fluster cuck - but it's not as simple as saying one person is responsible for the whole ordeal and that person must be purged from the entire community. People make mistakes, and while I agree it's an injustice when someone makes a mistake that harms others, if you purged everyone who did that, you would effectively destroy the entire community.

superbrad
02-27-2014, 02:07 PM
Harbl... hosting matches and funsraisers is how a business makes money.... I give them no props for that....

I don't think you fully understand the magnitude of this... and to write it off by saying "that wasn't their intention" is just burying your head in the sand.... Put their petty feud aside, what exactly is one's intention when sending a firearm into the RCMP for inspection?...

There is an estimated 3000 Swiss arms rifles in Canada that will require turning in (although I am sure significantly less will be turned in).... that is 6 times the amount of firearms seized in the high river gun grab.... all because TSE decided their own financial gain and beatinga rival in a feud was worth sacrificing the rights of legal gun owners.... Kind of makes their hosting of fundraisers somewhat ironic now doesn't it?......

Nobody is a disagreeing with you that the system needs dismantled so that this doesn't happen.... That doesn't mean that TSE is not at fault for using it....

Leprechaun84
02-27-2014, 02:08 PM
JR's position on compensation for owners of SAN rifles...


Says he has ten SAN rifles personally and that talk of compensation is premature given no notification from government.

leibermuster
02-27-2014, 02:22 PM
I met JR before once, regardless of what happened the guy tried to bring in cool stuff, was he a little naïve at the time or made mistakes ? I'm sure he was, but guys compare him to many other dealers out there he was a saint! When you have a big chain like Wal-Mart or MacDonald's or the banks it is easy to get away with tones of stuff like this, but these small business are pitiful compared to the power they are under.

if the RCMP succeed with this the domino effect will be fast and if JT gets in power be ready for another C68 gun grab and we will catch up with Australia real fast!

Mad Hatter
02-27-2014, 02:24 PM
I don't deny that the outcome of reporting the rifles had the effect of harming gun owners, but don't believe that it was JR's intention and if not for the existing government bureaucracy right now,

JR knowingly used that existing government bureaucracy as a tool. Whether or not it existed notwithstanding, he blatantly used it and did so knowing the potential outcome.

harbl_the_cat
02-27-2014, 02:34 PM
Harbl... hosting matches and funsraisers is how a business makes money.... I give them no props for that....

I don't think you fully understand the magnitude of this... and to write it off by saying "that wasn't their intention" is just burying your head in the sand.... Put their petty feud aside, what exactly is one's intention when sending a firearm into the RCMP for inspection?...

There is an estimated 3000 Swiss arms rifles in Canada that will require turning in (although I am sure significantly less will be turned in).... that is 6 times the amount of firearms seized in the high river gun grab.... all because TSE decided their own financial gain and beatinga rival in a feud was worth sacrificing the rights of legal gun owners.... Kind of makes their hosting of fundraisers somewhat ironic now doesn't it?......

Nobody is a disagreeing with you that the system needs dismantled so that this doesn't happen.... That doesn't mean that TSE is not at fault for using it....

I'm not disagreeing with you that it's an epically crappy situation nor am I saying TSE is NOT at fault.

I'm saying this situation is ENTIRELY a by-product of a conflict between two groups of people. That was the fault of every party involved, and I think that's the most important take away as a gun owner.

If you get into a quarrel with someone else, the long hard arm of the government can and probably will come down on you. The bigger the quarrel, the bigger the damage. As an individual, if you get into a fight with someone else, you can expect the government to take your guns. As a large organization involved in the firearms industry, you can expect the government to take yours (and other people's) guns.

I fully concede is was a poor decisions (and apologize if I hadn't been clear up to this point), but an even poorer decision is to get involved in a quarrel or starting more quarrels - especially when it comes to guns.

I can't speak for anyone but myself - but I can only provide the commentary that interpersonal disputes + guns = government coming and taking those guns away.

This incident clearly proves it.

I don't have anything to offer towards the resolution of this specific situation, except for the fact that I personally don't believe that starting more interpersonal disputes (and continuing existing ones) can lead to anything other than having the government coming and taking more guns away.

It's an abominable system...


JR knowingly used that existing government bureaucracy as a tool. Whether or not it existed notwithstanding, he blatantly used it and did so knowing the potential outcome.

Well you and I have no choice but to use that same bureaucracy as a tool and that same potential outcome is a possibility for all of us.

I want to make clear, I'm not justifying what JR did (I'm not him, I don't speak for him) - all I am saying that the possibilities of that same outcome happening are NOT limited to what JR did and while this whole situation is infuriating, where I personally feel that fury should be directed towards to assert the most amount of positive change is the government bureaucracy, not those who use it.

You could drive out TSE from the Canadian shooting community - but that doesn't mean an incident like this won't ever happen again. In fact, I think as long as the existing government gun control regime exists, incidents like these are an inevitability.

Edenchef
02-27-2014, 02:45 PM
Something has come to my mind(small and deranged as it is); for anyone out there that registered one of these on the LGR, I am worried. You could be a potential target. As we all know, there are most certainly illegal copies in the hands of LEO's. Since this thing has certainly not been widely or officially announced, I smell a rat. We all agree about the intimidation agenda of the "Horsemen", as demonstrated in High River and many other "incidents"; perpetrated against legal, Canadian gun owners, solely for the purpose of intimidating the rest of us. What about the possibility of a "midnight knock at the door" scenario? If I owned one of these, I would be getting it into the hands of someone with the legal license to hold "prohibs", ASAP. At the very least I would be getting mine offsite. I would also consider installing some clandestine video monitoring equipment in my home. Just in case. After all, as of last night, you all became........"Enemies of the State" and criminals. JMHO.

Cheers!

Doug_M
02-27-2014, 02:53 PM
Snail mail letter sent to Blaney. Don't own a Swiss Arms, just an SKS but they are fundamentally the same and I'm sure my SKS is also on the RCMP hit list. I plan on mailing a letter to Blaney once a month until the next election. If they lose he's going to know exactly why.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

harbl_the_cat
02-27-2014, 02:53 PM
Something has come to my mind(small and deranged as it is); for anyone out there that registered one of these on the LGR, I am worried. You could be a potential target. As we all know, there are most certainly illegal copies in the hands of LEO's. Since this thing has certainly not been widely or officially announced, I smell a rat. We all agree about the intimidation agenda of the "Horsemen", as demonstrated in High River and many other "incidents"; perpetrated against legal, Canadian gun owners, solely for the purpose of intimidating the rest of us. What about the possibility of a "midnight knock at the door" scenario? If I owned one of these, I would be getting it into the hands of someone with the legal license to hold "prohibs", ASAP. At the very least I would be getting mine offsite. I would also consider installing some clandestine video monitoring equipment in my home. Just in case. After all, as of last night, you all became........"Enemies of the State" and criminals. JMHO.

Cheers!

I don't think you can just hand over a prohib to someone with a 12.X license. I thought they had to be registered.

This situation is going to get very interesting, very soon.

Deerslayer270
02-27-2014, 03:02 PM
"I'm sure my SKS is also on the RCMP hit list"

I fear that too and wouldn't be surprised, after all they're "scary" looking

I dont own a swiss but you can bet il be writing my mp.

Edenchef
02-27-2014, 03:05 PM
I don't think you can just hand over a prohib to someone with a 12.X license. I thought they had to be registered.

This situation is going to get very interesting, very soon.

I'm not sure about the legalities, either. But I "have a very bad feeling about this".

Cheers!

RobSmith
02-27-2014, 03:11 PM
I'd say anyone who had one registered or bought one since the LGR went away and has a paper trail (went thru a dealer) should be prepared to be inspected in the rather near future. If people are to surrender them, I'd suggest they ONLY surrender the stripped receiver.

stevesummit
02-27-2014, 03:51 PM
I'd say anyone who had one registered or bought one since the LGR went away and has a paper trail (went thru a dealer) should be prepared to be inspected in the rather near future. If people are to surrender them, I'd suggest they ONLY surrender the stripped receiver.


If i do have to give mine up I plan on getting a cube of concrete and putting it in the middle for the RCMP to deal with

Prairie Dog
02-27-2014, 03:59 PM
I'm sure my SKS is also on the RCMP hit list.

And my AR and his Mini 14 and her (insert semi automatic rifle here).

Camo tung
02-27-2014, 03:59 PM
How do we go about making this stick to Turdo Junior? I'd like to pin the tail on that donkey because of his old man's failure to enshrine the property rights of Canadians in the Charter which allows the uncompensated seizure of an item without due process.

"In Anglo-Canadian law a statute that takes private property implicitly requires compensation to be paid to the private owner. However, if the statute expressly states that no compensation is payable, then there is no room for interpretation. In the case where a statute is a regulatory restriction of private property, a "regulatory taking," no compensation is payable.

Neither the federal nor a provincial government is under any constitutional obligation to pay fair (or any) compensation for expropriated property. Neither the Constitution Act 1867 nor the Charter of Rights contains any such guarantee. As a result, legislative power is unlimited."

An interesting side note for Albertans;

"The Alberta Bill of Rights Act specifies protection of property that can only be deprived under due process of law. The Alberta Personal Property Bill of Rights Act outlines provisions for just compensation. Unfortunately, these acts have their shortcomings, but they still offer much more vigorous recognition of property rights that does not exist in Canada outside of Alberta.

As well, as a statute of Alberta, this legislation only pertains to areas where Alberta has exclusive jurisdiction. Despite property rights being codified in Alberta law, it can be ignored by the Canadian government."

So, it appears that the fight is up to us as there is no current legislation that protects us in this particular situation. Either the Federal Gov't or your Provincial Gov't has free reign to tag team your ass, again without due process. The hardest fight will be for an amendment to the Charter protecting a person's right to own property not simply their right to enjoy it as is currently included. The immediate fight is for recognition in the public eye of what is taking place by our own Government. This issue needs to stay front and center now and in the run up to the next election.

blacksmithden
02-27-2014, 04:12 PM
Forget about these getting on the prohib list for 12.6 holders to own. You can no longer register new prohibs in Canada. The libtards plotted this well. Even with 12.6 on your license, in order to legally own a prohib, it has to be registered...no registration with a certificate to match, it's done....it's destined to be scrap metal if you tell the Royal Canadian Mounted Bullies.

Edenchef
02-27-2014, 04:27 PM
Additional thoughts on this issue........Raids, targeting only owners of Swiss Arms Products, could be the "smoking gun" revealing the existence of illegal copies of the LGR. We should all be prepared for "inspections", looking for illegal Swiss Arms Products; based on the data they have on each of us, because we have PAL's. This could be just the excuse they need for a wide area intimidation, crackdown on all legal, Canadian gun owners. IMHO, we all need to make sure our "ducks" are in order. It could also allow the creation of a new unofficial LGR. A classic "divide and conquer" strategy; remember......we outnumber them by at least 1000 to 1. Don't let them split us up, into bite size chunks! "Together we shall prevail; divided we shall fail".

Cheers!

Prairie Dog
02-27-2014, 04:31 PM
On line petition for this latest gun grab:

http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/the-rcmp-abuses-c-68.html

Waterloomike
02-27-2014, 04:38 PM
On line petition for this latest gun grab:

http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/the-rcmp-abuses-c-68.html

Needs it's own thread and sticky.

Prairie Dog
02-27-2014, 04:40 PM
Needs it's own thread and sticky.

Done. http://www.gunownersofcanada.ca/showthread.php?12385-On-line-petition-for-Swiss-Arms-confiscation&p=123652#post123652

Waterloomike
02-27-2014, 04:44 PM
Done. http://www.gunownersofcanada.ca/showthread.php?12385-On-line-petition-for-Swiss-Arms-confiscation&p=123652#post123652

Bonus!

Camo tung
02-27-2014, 04:47 PM
"Together we shall prevail; divided we shall fail". Cheers!

Who would have guessed the RUMP would up the ante and take the High River Gun Grab fight to all firearms owners? I say all firearms owners because if they are successful with the Swiss they WILL be back for others.

Edenchef
02-27-2014, 04:54 PM
Who would have guessed the RUMP would up the ante and take the High River Gun Grab fight to all firearms owners? I say all firearms owners because if they are successful with the Swiss they WILL be back for others.

Well, I don't believe they have a minimum IQ for new recruits; maybe a maximum allowable, though? Don't want them too smart.

Cheers!

Candychikita
02-27-2014, 04:59 PM
I need a proof read.



Press Release
For Immediate Release

RCMP Rewrites Laws To Confiscate Canadian Private Property

At 10:00pm EST on February 26, 2014 the RCMP reclassified the Swiss Arms Classic Green carbine firearm from non-restricted (and restricted) to prohibited status. Along with this firearm being reclassified, are these other firearms:

FRT # 129006 Swiss Arms Black Special Carbine
FRT # 119587 Swiss Arms Black Special
FRT # 119482 Swiss Arms Classic Green
FRT # 124216 Swiss Arms Classic Green Carbine
FRT # 124218 Swiss Arms Classic Green CQB
FRT # 119588 Swiss Arms Heavy Metal
FRT # 119485 Swiss Arms Red Devil
FRT # 119484 Swiss Arms Edition

There are approximately 1,000 -1,800 of these firearms in the public. The government will not be offering compensation and will be demanding that these firearms be surrendered, which cost between $3,000 - $4,000 each.

For the non-firearm owning Canadian, this important information seems to be in another language. To the Canadian firearms owner what this means is the RCMP without due legal process has just made all owners of this particular firearm instant criminals by owning it, despite being able to acquire it legally up until this point.

There have been no crimes committed in Canada by these particular firearms, and have safely been imported and owned by Canadians for many years. These particular firearms are the same type that Swiss-Canadians use to retain their Swiss citizenship.

This random reclassification sets a dangerous precedent –what possession of the average Canadian will be prohibited next?

The RCMP should not be allowed to change laws that allow confiscation of Canadian private property, especially without compensation. Canadians, gun owners or not, have rights. Please sign the online petition against this action at http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/the-rcmp-abuses-c-68.html

Camo tung
02-27-2014, 05:08 PM
RCMP Rewrites Laws To Confiscate Canadian Private Property

At 10:00pm EST on February 26, 2014 the RCMP reclassified the Swiss Arms Classic Green carbine firearm from non-restricted (and restricted) to prohibited status.

There have been no crimes committed in Canada by these particular firearms, and have been imported and safely owned by Canadians for many years. These particular firearms are of the same type that Swiss-Canadians use to retain their Swiss citizenship.

For the non-firearm owning Canadian, this important information seems to be in another language. To the Canadian firearms owner what this means is the RCMP without due legal process has just made all owners of this particular firearm instant criminals by owning it, despite being able to acquire it legally up until this point.

There are approximately 1,000 -1,800 of these firearms in the public. The government will not be offering compensation and will be demanding that these firearms be surrendered, which cost between $3,000 - $4,000 each.

The RCMP should not be allowed to change laws that allow confiscation of Canadian private property, especially without compensation.

This random reclassification sets a dangerous precedent –what possession of the average Canadian will be prohibited next?


**Just some rearranging and minor editing to keep the focus (for non-gun owners) on the private property aspect of the prohibition and potential seizures.**

Candychikita
02-27-2014, 05:13 PM
Thank you. Chop out all the other ones also reclassified to K.I.S.S. for the general (non firearms) public?

Edenchef
02-27-2014, 05:22 PM
RCMP Rewrites Laws To Confiscate Canadian Private Property

At 10:00pm EST on February 26, 2014 the RCMP reclassified the Swiss Arms Classic Green carbine firearm from non-restricted (and restricted) to prohibited status.

There have been no crimes committed in Canada by these particular firearms, and have been imported and safely owned by Canadians for many years. These particular firearms are of the same type that Swiss-Canadians use to retain their Swiss citizenship.

For the non-firearm owning Canadian, this important information seems to be in another language. To the Canadian firearms owner what this means is the RCMP without due legal process has just made all owners of this particular firearm instant criminals by owning it, despite being able to acquire it legally up until this point.

There are approximately 1,000 -1,800 of these firearms in the public. The government will not be offering compensation and will be demanding that these firearms be surrendered, which cost between $3,000 - $4,000 each.

The RCMP should not be allowed to change laws that allow confiscation of Canadian private property, especially without compensation.

This random reclassification sets a dangerous precedent –what possession of the average Canadian will be prohibited next?


**Just some rearranging and minor editing to keep the focus (for non-gun owners) on the private property aspect of the prohibition and potential seizures.**

Food for thought..........as a sub-national group within Canada; these Swiss Canadians maintain their proficiency with this particular system. Almost like a "militia" that does not answer directly to the Canadian Parliament. All using the same ammo, spare parts, and easy interchangeability between trained users. I wonder??????

Cheers!

Camo tung
02-27-2014, 05:25 PM
Thank you. Chop out all the other ones also reclassified to K.I.S.S. for the general (non firearms) public?

That's the way I was looking at it. We see it as a firearms and private property issue but we need the public's support from the private property angle. The less confusion as to what/how many are being re-classified the better.

Your choice.

berger
02-27-2014, 05:31 PM
For only the second time in my life have I sent a hand written letter to an MP. I sent one to my MP, Gordon O'Connor, Steven Blaney and Steven Harper. I don't own a Swiss Arm, but I will commit funds to this fight. I have had enough.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk

Camo tung
02-27-2014, 05:35 PM
For only the second time in my life have I sent a hand written letter to an MP. I sent one to my MP, Gordon O'Connor, Steven Blaney and Steven Harper. I don't own a Swiss Arm, but I will commit funds to this fight. I have had enough.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk

We all have a dog in this fight. I don't own a Swiss Arm either but I could be next so I'm involving myself.

Prairie Dog
02-27-2014, 05:36 PM
We all have a dog in this fight. I don't own a Swiss Arm either but I could be next so I'm involving myself.

Amen!

Candychikita
02-27-2014, 05:45 PM
Edenchef - if someone wanted to take it this way, it could be portrayed as a racist move against Swiss Canadians as well as a property rights issue. Like I said, PERFECT opportunity to get gun owners working together, but also garner some unexpected allies in this particular situation.

Camo-tung - Point taken, it is an excellent one.

Help. What will help is local newspaper email addresses. If you happen to know the name of your local newspaper and if it has a website, please find it. On each news website there will be a 'contact us' link with either a fill out form or an email address of an editor. It's fairly easy to submit a press release...it might be released immediately, it might not. If you are a resident in the area the chances of them publishing a press release is MUCH MUCH higher - please send an email, stating you are a resident of the area and attach the press release.

Off the top of my head is:
http://www.theprovince.com/about-the-province/contactus.html
http://www.vancouversun.com/about-vancouver-sun/contactus.html
http://www.langleytimes.com/contact_us/?curSection=%2F&curTitle=Contact+Us&c=y
http://www.surreyleader.com/contact_us/?curSection=%2F&curTitle=Contact+Us&c=y
http://www.langleyadvance.com/#

There is a link at the bottom of the Langley Advance link for associated newspapers as well - if you are a resident of any of these areas, please send a press release.

We can sign a petition, write letters to our MPs and send press releases from the comfort of our arm chairs. The media needs info pretty much ASAP, as this information gets old really fast and then it isn't "breaking news" any longer.

Any other suggested amendments to this:




Press Release
For Immediate Release

RCMP Rewrites Laws To Confiscate Canadian Private Property

At 10:00pm EST on February 26, 2014 the RCMP reclassified the Swiss Arms Classic Green carbine firearm from non-restricted (and restricted) to prohibited status.

There have been no crimes committed in Canada by these particular firearms, and have been imported and safely owned by Canadians for many years. These particular firearms are of the same type that Swiss-Canadians use to retain their Swiss citizenship.

For the non-firearm owning Canadian, this important information seems to be in another language. To the Canadian firearms owner what this means is the RCMP without due legal process has just made all owners of this particular firearm instant criminals by owning it, despite being able to acquire it legally up until this point.

There are approximately 1,000 -1,800 of these firearms in the public. The government will not be offering compensation and will be demanding that these firearms be surrendered, which cost between $3,000 - $4,000 each.

The RCMP should not be allowed to change laws that allow confiscation of Canadian private property, especially without compensation.

This random reclassification sets a dangerous precedent –what possession of the average Canadian will be prohibited next?

Canadians, gun owners or not, have rights. Please sign the online petition against this action at http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/...uses-c-68.html or contact your local MP.

Waterloomike
02-27-2014, 06:12 PM
Even if they compensate, it's like being paid for sex by your rapist.

stevesummit
02-27-2014, 06:19 PM
Even if they compensate, it's like being paid for sex by your rapist.


I like that one !!

BrotherRockeye
02-27-2014, 06:20 PM
I would definitely be changing

There have been no crimes committed in Canada by these particular firearms

to "with"

firearms can't commit crimes on their own, even though they are portrayed that way.

mouthpiece
02-27-2014, 06:20 PM
The point is,to make the RCMP answerable to Parliament and to the citizens of Canada

That is why I have put the team together and am moving ahead

Prairie Dog
02-27-2014, 06:24 PM
The point is,to make the RCMP answerable to Parliament and to the citizens of Canada

That is why I have put the team together and am moving ahead

and accountable? Glad to have you on our team and working for us.

Waterloomike
02-27-2014, 06:24 PM
I like that one !!

We need to use it. It really puts an exclamation point on it, I think.

Waterloomike
02-27-2014, 06:26 PM
The point is,to make the RCMP answerable to Parliament and to the citizens of Canada

That is why I have put the team together and am moving ahead


Well I'm glad about that.

We've met a couple of times. Once when we did the Gun Owners of toronto and once in a gun shop.

Very glad to have you on our side and taking the lead.

ReignCzech
02-27-2014, 06:28 PM
On line petition for this latest gun grab:

http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/the-rcmp-abuses-c-68.html


get in on it, everyone

Camo tung
02-27-2014, 06:44 PM
We need to use it. It really puts an exclamation point on it, I think.

I can certainly appreciate the sentiment when we're discussing how this affects gun owners while on GOC but I would leave the rape association out of any correspondence with the media, your MP or a non-gun owner seeking clarification on the "whys" of the confiscation. Unfortunately a better analogy isn't on the tip of my tongue yet, too much bitterness remaining from the announcement.

jwirecom109
02-27-2014, 06:48 PM
Guess who just called? The Conservative party, thanking me for my support LOL, wow did that poor girl get a ear full but she did say that she has HAD many people say the same thing.

Drache
02-27-2014, 07:03 PM
He'll I'd still buy one of these just to puss someone off or if I had one I'd be lucky I sold it to mike from can more :p

Foxer
02-27-2014, 07:04 PM
I'm hearing rumours already that the CPC is getting an earful on the issue - word is spreading rapidly. We just need to keep up that pressure as much as humanly possible to force the CPC to eyeball the situation.

They may only offer compensation, because they have limited abilities to interfere with the RCMP. However - this kind of thing makes it much much easier to talk them into changing the system for the future to prevent this kind of embarrassment and cost. And I have to think there's a lot more than 1500 of these rifles in Canada.

Camo tung
02-27-2014, 07:14 PM
I'm hearing rumours already that the CPC is getting an earful on the issue - word is spreading rapidly. We just need to keep up that pressure as much as humanly possible to force the CPC to eyeball the situation.

They may only offer compensation, because they have limited abilities to interfere with the RCMP. However - this kind of thing makes it much much easier to talk them into changing the system for the future to prevent this kind of embarrassment and cost. And I have to think there's a lot more than 1500 of these rifles in Canada.

The bare minimum for those affected should be full compensation. The hard part is going to be getting the current government in the remaining time before 2015 to revisit the issue of property rights, via an amendment to the Charter or some other legislative method that will protect all Canadians in all provinces regardless of the item next up under the ban hammer.

TV-PressPass
02-27-2014, 07:21 PM
I wonder how hard it would be to get a new OIC removing the SG550 from the prohib list?

Prairie Dog
02-27-2014, 07:23 PM
RCMP prohibit Swiss Arms rifle

Canadian firearms advocates push back against the RCMP's decision to reclassify the Swiss Arms Classic Green Carbine rifle as a prohibited weapon

Video with Blaney's statement: (inc Soloman Friedman and Tony Bernardo)

http://www.cbc.ca/player/News/Politics/ID/2439743206/

Foxer
02-27-2014, 07:25 PM
The hard part is going to be getting the current government in the remaining time before 2015 to revisit the issue of property rights, via an amendment to the Charter or some other legislative method that will protect all Canadians in all provinces regardless of the item next up under the ban hammer.

well that's just not possible. there is zero chance of ANY gov't ever opening up a charter issue this close to an election, it's absolute death. Opening up the charter at ANY time for ANY reason is risky to the extreme, and several provinces have already indicated they don't like the idea of property rights in the slightest, so it would be very politically damaging to try.

If they won't open it up for the senate, they sure won't for this.

Foxer
02-27-2014, 07:29 PM
I wonder how hard it would be to get a new OIC removing the SG550 from the prohib list?
technically quite easy, but politically very risky. The anti's would scream murder about putting a dangerous full auto assault rifle of death on the streets of the cities.

About the best we could hope for is using this to pressure the cpc to make changes to the process of how firearms are classified (or re-classified) to prevent future abuses.

Edenchef
02-27-2014, 07:34 PM
I'm hearing rumours already that the CPC is getting an earful on the issue - word is spreading rapidly. We just need to keep up that pressure as much as humanly possible to force the CPC to eyeball the situation.

They may only offer compensation, because they have limited abilities to interfere with the RCMP. However - this kind of thing makes it much much easier to talk them into changing the system for the future to prevent this kind of embarrassment and cost. And I have to think there's a lot more than 1500 of these rifles in Canada.

Let's see.......no FA, no problem........no new cash for the ArrrCMP budget, no problem. No need to interfere; ArrrrCMP enforce the law, as written; Parliament makes that law.....no problem. Oh, we now have a new agency to handle the new FA and all your members must hand in their arms until they each qualify individually for the new RPAL, just like any other law abiding citizen. ArrrCMP don't want to listen to Parliament.........no problem. That's why we have a superior force(CAF), with much bigger guns, that does answer to Parliament. No problem! And the best one......the compensation we(Parliament) order, comes out of the current ArrrCMP budget. JMHO.

Cheers!

RobSmith
02-27-2014, 07:45 PM
It'd be much, much easier to get a clear definition of "Variant" as well as getting rid of subjective criteria (that appear nowhere in law such as "too easy to convert to automatic fire") and be done with the whole mess.


I wonder how hard it would be to get a new OIC removing the SG550 from the prohib list?

Camo tung
02-27-2014, 07:51 PM
It'd be much, much easier to get a clear definition of "Variant" as well as getting rid of subjective criteria (that appear nowhere in law such as "too easy to convert to automatic fire") and be done with the whole mess.

Winner, winner chicken dinner.
The heart of the whole issue. With nothing on paper it falls to the RCMP Tech..."in my opinion....." and numerous current or future owners are then screwed. No property rights to fall back on and here is where we find ourselves today. Change is required...immediately.

Drache
02-27-2014, 08:02 PM
And people called me crazy years ago for stating this will happen. :(

RobSmith
02-27-2014, 08:05 PM
At least on the surface being able to declare someone a criminal over a subjective matter screams of "equal under the law" being rather pointless.


Winner, winner chicken dinner.
The heart of the whole issue. With nothing on paper it falls to the RCMP Tech..."in my opinion....." and numerous current or future owners are then screwed. No property rights to fall back on and here is where we find ourselves today. Change is required...immediately.

blacksmithden
02-27-2014, 08:16 PM
I don't understand why you guys want clearer definitions of variant, and exact interpretations of C-68. Stop trying to fix C-68....it's intended purpose was to disarm Canadians, one person, and one gun at a time. I think we all knew that from the beginning. It didn't take much common sense to see what the liberals end goal was. Why do we keep saying it needs to be fixed....it doesn't need to be fixed....it needs to be abolished all together and and new legislation written with it's purpose being to keep guns away from criminals and does NOTHING to punish honest gun owners, including slagging us with BS, unnecessary paperwork and process. ANY reference to the RCMP having the power to make rules/regulations/policy/paper hats, or what the f--- ever must NOT appear in ANY way. If the RCMP think something has to change, they can damned well contact parliament the same way we have to. Sorry...this is turning in to a rant. The long and the short of it is, I think we should stop asking for the government to fix this and that with C-68, and we need to start DEMANDING that they change it out with common sense regulations that can't make us criminals with the swipe of a pen.

blacksmithden
02-27-2014, 08:20 PM
And people called me crazy years ago for stating this will happen. :(

I wasn't calling you crazy for saying this would happen....for many other reasons, yes.....but not this. :)

HK45
02-27-2014, 08:20 PM
I don't understand why you guys want clearer definitions of variant, and exact interpretations of C-68. Stop trying to fix C-68....it's intended purpose was to disarm Canadians, one person, and one gun at a time. I think we all knew that from the beginning. It didn't take much common sense to see what the liberals end goal was. Why do we keep saying it needs to be fixed....it doesn't need to be fixed....it needs to be abolished all together and and new legislation written with it's purpose being to keep guns away from criminals and does NOTHING to punish honest gun owners, including slagging us with BS, unnecessary paperwork and process. ANY reference to the RCMP having the power to make rules/regulations/policy/paper hats, or what the f--- ever must NOT appear in ANY way. If the RCMP think something has to change, they can damned well contact parliament the same way we have to. Sorry...this is turning in to a rant. The long and the short of it is, I think we should stop asking for the government to fix this and that with C-68, and we need to start DEMANDING that they change it out with common sense regulations that can't make us criminals with the swipe of a pen.

100% agreed!

Waterloomike
02-27-2014, 08:24 PM
I don't understand why you guys want clearer definitions of variant, and exact interpretations of C-68. Stop trying to fix C-68....it's intended purpose was to disarm Canadians, one person, and one gun at a time. I think we all knew that from the beginning. It didn't take much common sense to see what the liberals end goal was. Why do we keep saying it needs to be fixed....it doesn't need to be fixed....it needs to be abolished all together and and new legislation written with it's purpose being to keep guns away from criminals and does NOTHING to punish honest gun owners, including slagging us with BS, unnecessary paperwork and process. ANY reference to the RCMP having the power to make rules/regulations/policy/paper hats, or what the f--- ever must NOT appear in ANY way. If the RCMP think something has to change, they can damned well contact parliament the same way we have to. Sorry...this is turning in to a rant. The long and the short of it is, I think we should stop asking for the government to fix this and that with C-68, and we need to start DEMANDING that they change it out with common sense regulations that can't make us criminals with the swipe of a pen.

I agree. There's no point in rearranging the deck chairs on the titanic.

Prairie Dog
02-27-2014, 08:26 PM
I don't understand why you guys want clearer definitions of variant, and exact interpretations of C-68. Stop trying to fix C-68....it's intended purpose was to disarm Canadians, one person, and one gun at a time. I think we all knew that from the beginning. It didn't take much common sense to see what the liberals end goal was. Why do we keep saying it needs to be fixed....it doesn't need to be fixed....it needs to be abolished all together and and new legislation written with it's purpose being to keep guns away from criminals and does NOTHING to punish honest gun owners, including slagging us with BS, unnecessary paperwork and process. ANY reference to the RCMP having the power to make rules/regulations/policy/paper hats, or what the f--- ever must NOT appear in ANY way. If the RCMP think something has to change, they can damned well contact parliament the same way we have to. Sorry...this is turning in to a rant. The long and the short of it is, I think we should stop asking for the government to fix this and that with C-68, and we need to start DEMANDING that they change it out with common sense regulations that can't make us criminals with the swipe of a pen.


I agree. There's no point in rearranging the deck chairs on the titanic.

I'm in full agreement!

Mad Hatter
02-27-2014, 10:26 PM
http://www.theshootingcentre.com/sans-overview


SAN Overview


As you may now be aware the RCMP have begun reviewing the status of the Swiss Arms (SAN) family of rifles. The review is technical in nature and based on whether the rifles sold in Canada over the past 12 years are a separate design or whether they are actually variants of the prohibited SG550 rifle.

Background
This whole story needs to be put into context to make sense. Back in 2000/2001 James B. (the author) was involved in The Shooting Edge (TSE). As such I know a little bit about the back story on how these rifles were introduced into Canada. At the time JR (President of TSE) met with and discussed the project personally with SAN. He also spoke directly to the RCMP forensics folks. I was not privy to the specifics of these discussions but I know that the general gist was to market the Blue Star rifle in Canada by building the case that it derived from the SG540 which was not prohibited by name. The actual changes made to the platform are pretty much proprietary and closely held by SAN (and presumably TSE). It is worth noting that the rifles were never physically inspected at the time and the FRT was issued purely based on discussions with SAN and JR. Over the years additional FRT’s have been added by stating that the Classic Green, Black Special etc were variants of the original Blue Star.

2001 – 2008: The distributor for SAN from 2001 until 2008 was The Shooting Edge
2008 – 2013: The distributor was FN Sports
2013 – Present: Throughout the first part of 2013 the distributor has been MD Charlton
During the first quarter of 2013 the RCMP had been asked by JR Cox to determine whether a Swiss Arms rifle (serial number ESF9116) was a “real” Classic Green rifle. This of course forced them to look into what makes a Classic Green rifle different from a PE90/SG550. They are currently trying to make that determination. To do so they have compared ESF9116 to a “real” Classic Green rifle, and I would assume to both a real SG550 and a real SG540 (which I personally know to be in their possession right now).

The last word I had received from the forensics people was an email which concluded that in their opinion the Classic Green rifle is indeed an SG550 or a variant of it, and they are currently looking for proof from the factory that would disprove this conclusion.

The Story of ESF 9116
During the past several years, production of new SAN rifles was rather slow and the Canadian distributor was not particularly good at keeping stock available for dealers. As a result, months and months would go by without rifles for sale. Seeing this situation, CSC arranged to have used rifles rebuilt to the exact standards of the Canadian specific Classic Green rifle. This work was done by SAN. Candidate rifles were carefully selected, parts were replaced or refinished as appropriate and the rifles were imported into Canada. It must be stressed that the imported rifles were certified by SAN to be identical in all respects to the rifles imported by the Canadian distributors since 2001, based on the standards put in place by JR Cox at that time. One such shipment contained a rifle serial number ESF9116. This rifle was sold to one of our customers 8 Dec 12, several weeks later he traded this rifle in to TSE

On 28 March 13, the directors of CSC were interviewed by NWEST who were investigating a complaint that had been lodged by an individual. The individual had made allegations that a rifle sold by CSC was in fact a converted automatic prohibited firearm and that CSC had been trafficking in these firearms. A picture of a firearm was produced, it was a Classic Green rifle serial number ESF9116. CSC told NWEST that all rifles that they had imported from Switzerland had been carefully selected and inspected and refurbished to meet the exact standards of those Classic Green rifles that had been sold for the past decade or so. It was agreed that CSC would provide a letter to this effect sent by SAN to verify these details. This letter was sent to CSC on 18 April 13.

Furthermore in an attempt to have JR retract his complaint before it forced the RCMP to open an investigation into the SAN rifles CSC forwarded this email to JR Cox:

Email – April 30, 2013.

Ultimately on 24 May 13, CSC received an email from the RCMP forensics office stating that rifle ESF9116 had been inspected and found to have been a semi automatic rifle. Unfortunately two other Classic Green rifles that had been provided as control items had been determined to have been Converted Automatics. One ESF74361 had been imported in 2012 by FN Sports, and the other ESF73096 had been imported by TSE some time before 2008. This raised the issue of whether all “real” Classic Green rifles were converted automatics. Furthermore due to the additional accusation of ESF9116 being a “spurious” copy of the Classic Green rifle, the RCMP had been forced to investigate the entire SAN line to determine what if any differences exist between the Classic Green, Black Special, Blue Star etc series of rifles and the SG550/PE 90 rifles which are named as prohibited. This investigation is currently ongoing, however the RCMP have reached a tentative conclusion that there is no appreciable difference between the SAN rifles and the SG550/PE90, and are currently waiting for factory information that will disprove this conclusion.

Email – May 24, 2013

The Allegations as presented by JR and TSE:

We hate to have to post this but unfortunately it has already been made public on several of the gun boards. The allegations contained in this post are false and those that are not already proven false by the documents included in this page (in particular the letter from SAN), will be proven false once the RCMP have completed their investigation. We consider any allegation that our rifles were counterfeit to be spurious and defamatory.

TSE JR post from Canadian Gun Nutz.

To be clear, CSC has never imported ex military rifles.

All of our imports were (as stated by SAN) identical mechanically to the rifles that had been imported by TSE in the past, military receivers were produced for fully automatic guns and are different. The RCMP have already verified that the gun in question (ESF9116) was a purpose built semi automatic rifle.

We have included a picture of a gun imported by TSE to compare to the picture of the alleged “spurious” or “obvious counterfeit” copy. You can see that the allegations of incorrect and missing markings are patently false. Furthermore if, as alleged, the serial numbers were being changed, and a 4 digit serial number was incorrect, why would SAN have not simply added another digit? The answer of course is that SAN does not change serial numbers and a 4 digit serial number simply shows that the gun was produced earlier than guns with 5 digit serial numbers.

ESF73096 one of the control rifles submitted for inspection — this gun was imported by TSE prior to 2008.

1135n_20130607_11022405

ESF74361 the other control rifle was imported by FN Sports in 2012 — it was subsequently sold to TSE.

1135n_20130607_11035602

This picture of a Classic Green receiver that is clearly marked as having been imported by TSE would have failed the criteria listed in JR’s post. Note the lack of manufacturer and commercial markings and the spacing in the serial number. Font size, style and spacing all the same. Our gun did not include the TSE logo but then again no gun imported since 2008 has either.

tse-SAN

It is quite apparent that SAN has changed the style of the engraving over time and has been fairly haphazard with what information they include.

ESF9116-1s

In conclusion it is very apparent that the above allegations make no sense because SAN, the manufacturer of the guns, states quite clearly in their letter that they are identical mechanically. Would not the manufacturer of the guns be the final arbitrator as to whether or not a particular gun was a counterfeit? How is it therefore still possible for JR to claim that one is a “spurious” copy of the other? Perhaps more importantly, why was such a claim made?



Update – 16 July

Although the RCMP had asked for all submissions to be returned no later than 30 June, this was extended and the following was posted by JR on Canadian Gun Nutz on 16 July.

“I have just finished a 38 page report for the RCMP on this matter. This was prepared with the help of the factory, the SIG museum curators and MD Charlton.

While this report is not being published publicly, I have had it peer reviewed. It clearly shows lineage of all of the proper officially manufactured and imported rifles.

JR”

It is unclear what “peer reviewed” means in this context, but apparently the final submission has been received by the RCMP and we await their final decision.



Update – 1 Feb 14

National Post article 1 Feb 2014

This article was recently published in the National Post. Once again we are forced to defend ourselves against accusations that our rifles were “counterfeit”, “bogus” and “illegal”. Mr Cox’s remarks are again inaccurate, malicious and defamatory and could very well jeopardize Canadians’ chances of owning these rifles.

Interestingly, Mr Cox is now no longer suggesting that our rifle was an ex military rifle, and in fact seems to concede that it may be mechanically identical to his rifles. His current story seems to be that our rifle should be prohibited because of its “lineage”even though it is or could be identical to those imported by him.

“Cox said it didn’t matter what the specifications were. At their core, they were still variants of the SG550s. It’s the lineage that counts — “a pig is still a pig.””

So now even after SAN has confirmed that our rifles were identical to his, Mr Cox is maintaining that they are different because of their “lineage” but not their actual physical characteristics. Even though every part interchanges between our two respective rifles, and every part and dimension is exactly the same, his guns are ok and ours are “bogus” and should be prohibited. It is not hard to imagine where this argument will lead and gun owners should probably prepare for the worst.

Given some of the negative comments that have been made about our company I feel it is necessary to address some of the issues here:

We did not simply buy some prohibited rifles and pass them off as non restricted rifles. The donor rifles were selected and sent to SAN (the original manufacturer of all the products) for refurbishment to meet Canadian standards. Since the exact alterations were proprietary, we asked only for the required work to be done and paid a substantial amount to have it done. Factory refurbishment programs can and sometimes does involve the replacement of receivers.

Mr Cox has brought up a lineage argument but has never once specified what changes are required to make a PE90 rifle Canadian compliant. Furthermore at no time has anyone (SAN included) offered a definitive means to determine lineage other than by accepting the word of SAN. We have a letter from SAN which appears to do just that for our rifles. It is also possible that Canadian compliant receivers are in circulation in Switzerland sold off as overstock over the years. Thus it is even (remotely) possible our donor rifles were originally built on the correct “lineage” receivers to begin with but Mr Cox would like people to believe that only he can determine the real from the fake.

The very real possibility still exists however that regardless of lineage, all of the rifles may still be identical to one another and identical to a prohibited variant. This has come as something of a surprise to us, but apparently Mr Cox has known this all along and has relied on the lineage argument to ignore it. This is troubling. For example if I take a Mosin Nagant rifle and rework it so that it is a semi automatic rifle that uses the same mechanism as an AK47, and interchanges all parts with an AK47, it does not remain a Mosin Nagant rifle. Alternatively, one could imagine the factory developing the SG550 rifle, and then a parallel department taking a SG540 and improving it to the point where it coincidentally is identical to the SG550 rifle. One would have to suspend belief that the design was independent and separate especially when dealing within the same factory. In any event we are supposed to believe that these identical but different production streams were devoid of any specific markings to determine the correct lineage of the rifle in question, SAN can be mistaken in it’s determinations, and Mr Cox is always correct.

Things do not look good!



Update 27 Feb 2014



The RCMP have just amended the FRT and listed all Swiss Arms rifles as variants of the SG550 and therefore prohibited.



Old RCMP FRT

New RCMP FRT

In summary it appears as though the RCMP have finally decided that the PE90 is a variant of the SG550 and therefore prohibited. It is important to note that there were no differences between the PE90 Classic Green rifles sold by The Shooting Edge and those sold by Calgary Shooting Centre. The entire issue that has been presented by JR Cox that somehow our rifles were “counterfeit” or “bogus” has been proven to be incorrect. Unfortunately the RCMP have only just changed the FRT, owners of these rifles are now effectively in limbo concerning what their next action should be. Will compensation be paid? What about an amnesty period?

All Canadian s need to contact their Members of Parliament and let them know that this type of arbitrary regulatory change is unjust and can seriously affect a normally law abiding citizen in the most dire ways.







What Can We Do?
Please write to your member of parliament and let them know that the firearms act is vague and illogical. Because it is poorly drafted gun owners are suffering financial and legal problems.

Here are two proposed letters if you don’t know what to say:

Letter 1
Letter 2

Foxer
02-28-2014, 12:37 AM
Let's see.......no FA, no problem........no new cash for the ArrrCMP budget, no problem. No need to interfere; ArrrrCMP enforce the law, as written; Parliament makes that law.....no problem. Oh, we now have a new agency to handle the new FA and all your members must hand in their arms until they each qualify individually for the new RPAL, just like any other law abiding citizen

Well, if all of that was intended to mean "if they take the classification mechanism away from the police then the issue of police interference goes away", that is likely correct. :) BUt it's not quite as easy as you might think on a practical level. Also - where does it go? You seem to suggest placing it under gov't control. Fine and dandy - right until we change gov'ts. Then your solution might be used against us even worse than the police abuse it now. Unless we give it to something like the judiciary or the like then we're going to have a problem sooner or later, and we may have to pick between bad and worse.

Steveo9mm
02-28-2014, 02:39 AM
I agree with all the agreeing :agree:

RobSmith
02-28-2014, 06:55 AM
With a set of objective, rather than subjective criteria whoever ends up with the task of classification is largely irrelevant.


Also - where does it go? You seem to suggest placing it under gov't control. Fine and dandy - right until we change gov'ts. Then your solution might be used against us even worse than the police abuse it now. Unless we give it to something like the judiciary or the like then we're going to have a problem sooner or later, and we may have to pick between bad and worse.

Steveo9mm
02-28-2014, 07:52 AM
Kind of like the next election :(

blacksmithden
02-28-2014, 08:06 AM
With a set of objective, rather than subjective criteria whoever ends up with the task of classification is largely irrelevant.

Exactly....so we need to get that objective changed....and the only real way to do that is to both change the objective legally, AND, get rid of those who have made a career out of achieving the old objective. It's not like the conservatives are going to be able to walk in there and say...ok gang...we know your entire department is set up for, and has been running happily for the past 20 years to get xxxxx done.....well, now we want you to forget all that. Now, we want you to do something that you will hate, which is get yyyyy...the exact opposite of xxxxx, done. We all know that with the ArrrrrCMP mentality of being above the law, government, and the people, that it just isn't going to happen. They may say OK on the outside, but they won't stop moving toward their original objective.

awndray
02-28-2014, 09:40 AM
From the other site:

Just a note to say that we are very willing to work with Swiss Arms owners to take possession of any newly prohibited rifles while this situation gets worked out. We already do this for other prohibs and have saved many from the crusher. We sincerely hope NO SANs get crushed over this sad spectacle.

If anyone is facing a seizure order, call us before turning in your rifle.

newshooter
02-28-2014, 10:09 AM
We need to get rid of Chief Firearms Officers and go back to pre-C-68 regulations if this is the type of hanky-panky they're getting up to. The CFOs were another massive boon-doggle of Alan Rock and the Liberals. We need to call for the firing of every single CFO in the country.

RobSmith
02-28-2014, 10:12 AM
AFAIK CFO's predate C68, I do know for a fact that named prohibitions do (C17 brought those in).


We need to get rid of Chief Firearms Officers and go back to pre-C-68 regulations if this is the type of hanky-panky they're getting up to. The CFOs were another massive boon-doggle of Alan Rock and the Liberals. We need to call for the firing of every single CFO in the country.

Waterloomike
02-28-2014, 12:52 PM
We need to get rid of Chief Firearms Officers and go back to pre-C-68 regulations if this is the type of hanky-panky they're getting up to. The CFOs were another massive boon-doggle of Alan Rock and the Liberals. We need to call for the firing of every single CFO in the country.

I would say we need to go back to a period of time when the level and volume of general knowledge understood that Rights did not need to be written down as it was understood what they were and that they were the fundamental point of being a human being.

Now a days, people need to be told to wear a coat when it's cold outside, not to touch a bright orange stove element, not to play in traffic and on and on. Too many people have been dumbed down to the point of being very stupid. But the average level of education has never been higher. go figure.

awndray
02-28-2014, 12:58 PM
"My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government."
-- Thomas Jefferson

(Whether or not these words have been proven to be Jefferson's own, they still ring true.)

Mad Hatter
02-28-2014, 01:20 PM
"My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government."
-- Thomas Jefferson

(Whether or not these words have been proven to be Jefferson's own, they still ring true.)

Libertarian platform.


waterloomike: I would say we need to go back to a period of time when the level and volume of general knowledge understood that Rights did not need to be written down as it was understood what they were and that they were the fundamental point of being a human being.

Never. Not now that they have us backed into a corner.

Candychikita
02-28-2014, 01:51 PM
Well. I've sent my letters, put my name on that online petition, sent press releases to the local media/newspapers (and CTV) and complained loudly to the people I know. I will donate in trust to the class action lawsuit...that's pretty much all I can do as a person at this point, other than a continued education about what a person can do heh.

Edenchef - I found this in the Criminal Code and thought of you with your "out of my cold dead hands" mentality.

Criminal Code s.35 Defence of Property
http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/C-46/page-14.html#docCont

Defence of Property
Marginal note: Defence — property

35. (1) A person is not guilty of an offence if

(a) they either believe on reasonable grounds that they are in peaceable possession of property or are acting under the authority of, or lawfully assisting, a person whom they believe on reasonable grounds is in peaceable possession of property;

(b) they believe on reasonable grounds that another person

(i) is about to enter, is entering or has entered the property without being entitled by law to do so,

(ii) is about to take the property, is doing so or has just done so, or

(iii) is about to damage or destroy the property, or make it inoperative, or is doing so;

(c) the act that constitutes the offence is committed for the purpose of

(i) preventing the other person from entering the property, or removing that person from the property, or

(ii) preventing the other person from taking, damaging or destroying the property or from making it inoperative, or retaking the property from that person; and

(d) the act committed is reasonable in the circumstances.

Marginal note:No defence

(2) Subsection (1) does not apply if the person who believes on reasonable grounds that they are, or who is believed on reasonable grounds to be, in peaceable possession of the property does not have a claim of right to it and the other person is entitled to its possession by law.
Marginal note:No defence

(3) Subsection (1) does not apply if the other person is doing something that they are required or authorized by law to do in the administration or enforcement of the law, unless the person who commits the act that constitutes the offence believes on reasonable grounds that the other person is acting unlawfully.

The page just before describes what is ok as defence of person.

Waterloomike
02-28-2014, 02:38 PM
Libertarian platform.



Never. Not now that they have us backed into a corner.

Even a rat fights when it's backed into a corner.

conger
02-28-2014, 02:41 PM
Again this is about property rights in this country and how we don't have any. I don't own one of these, but I have to ask myself. "when will they come for mine????"
I wrote two letters today. One to the PM and one to Public Safety. I encourage everyone to do the same. Keep it respectful, but to the point. It does take that long to do. If we don't start standing up together to protect our property, we will eventually have it taken away.

Gerry

Foxer
02-28-2014, 07:21 PM
Again this is about property rights in this country and how we don't have any. I don't own one of these, but I have to ask myself. "when will they come for mine????"
I wrote two letters today. One to the PM and one to Public Safety. I encourage everyone to do the same. Keep it respectful, but to the point. It does take that long to do. If we don't start standing up together to protect our property, we will eventually have it taken away.

GerryQuoted for truth.

Prairie Dog
02-28-2014, 07:24 PM
"My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government."
-- Thomas Jefferson

(Whether or not these words have been proven to be Jefferson's own, they still ring true.)

I suspect Harper just lost close to 2 million votes.

Camo tung
02-28-2014, 07:27 PM
I suspect Harper just lost close to 2 million votes.

Nothing like handing Turdo Jr. a majority Gov't. Way to go Stevo.

conger
02-28-2014, 07:29 PM
I suspect Harper just lost close to 2 million votes.

Let's not forget, it was a liberal govt that concocted C-68 the other guy scares me more

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Foxer
02-28-2014, 07:29 PM
I suspect Harper just lost close to 2 million votes.

Oh i don't know about that. Especially if we're smart. Remember - the RCMP is NOT the gov't. And the CFC people are a small, well protected and insulated part of the RCMP. That group would love nothing more than to see us turn on the cpc, get the libs back in, and then they can really go to town on us unimpeded.

No, the answer would not be to abandon the CPC. That would be playing into the hands of the folks who did this to us. The answer is to continue to pressure the CPC and make it so painful every time one of these things comes up that they take strong action over time to permanently correct the problem. Trust me, the RCMP who are in charge of this won't behave any better with the libs or ndp in power.

Foxer
02-28-2014, 07:31 PM
Let's not forget, it was a liberal govt that concocted C-68 the other guy scares me more

Sent from my SGH-I747M using Tapatalk
Exactly.

We just have to make this kind of thing a royal pain in the butt for the cpc - flood them with calls and letters, hound them, be relentless, etc, so that they feel the pain like we do. They'll get sick of it soon enough and finally deal with it.

BruceW
02-28-2014, 07:32 PM
the RCMP is NOT the gov't.

I'm not so sure about that anymore. It's looking more and more like all our elections decide is who gets libraries named after them.

Foxer
02-28-2014, 07:37 PM
I'm not so sure about that anymore. It's looking more and more like all our elections decide is who gets libraries named after them.

Be sure. They operate on their own agenda and are well able to resist pressure from the gov't. Even when harper told them to 'give the guns back' in alberta they squaked about gov't interference and the like.

You can't undo 150 years of the entrenching of bureaucracy with one majority term. Honestly - you can't do it with 4 terms entirely. This is a process of years. Look how hard they had to fight just to get the cops to stop trying to create back door registries.

The cpc does more than you think to fight this kind of crap, even if it's arguably less than we'd like. But we're also not their only priority by a long shot. Trust me, if the libs get back in next time you'll notice a difference, and you won't care for it.

We just have to work harder and apply pressure especially right now. Drive them batty dealing with this - they won't forget that the RCMP gifted them with this headache.

Haywire1
02-28-2014, 07:44 PM
oh yes you can do away with it, Look at the Airborne Regiment, rather than get rid of the bad apples in the regiment, they disbanded the entire thing. Simple stroke of the pen, to take away the cfc and force the rcmp to enforce the law rather than make it.

conger
02-28-2014, 07:51 PM
oh yes you can do away with it, Look at the Airborne Regiment, rather than get rid of the bad apples in the regiment, they disbanded the entire thing. Simple stroke of the pen, to take away the cfc and force the rcmp to enforce the law rather than make it.

Remember who disbanded the Airborne. I do. Another nasty liberal.

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Haywire1
02-28-2014, 07:52 PM
I fully remember. The fact remains however it is ridiculously easy to fix the issue

conger
02-28-2014, 07:59 PM
I fully remember. The fact remains however it is ridiculously easy to fix the issue

Agreed. Bob Paulson would be a good start.

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Foxer
02-28-2014, 09:15 PM
The fact remains however it is ridiculously easy to fix the issue

Oh sure - that's why they disband regiments all the time, right? :)

To those unfamiliar with the system, it seems like it's 'the stroke of a pen', i'm sure. It's a lot more complex than that i'm afraid, both in technical terms and politically as well.

Change can happen, but it rarely happens quickly and it's never easy. And it's a question of political capital - the CPC can do X number of things and pass/repeal Y number of laws in a given term. That's it. So - you figure that killing the CFC will win them the next election? Because otherwise they're not likely to do it right now.

Anyway - unless you replace the cfc with SOMETHING you basically invite the next gov't to put in something worse. It's much much much easier just to gut the CFC's powers and then leave them in place. But even that is complex. Who will classify firearms? Someone has to, it's pretty much politically impossible to do away with classifications anytime soon. So who does that? Who issues licenses? We're not going to end licensing - we might substantially change it but ending it would hand the libs the keys to the prime minister's office. etc etc.

You'd have to answer those questions - and not with Fairy Wand magic where the world suddenly changes and stops being what it is. There's still a lot of anti sentiment out there and you have to sell whatever you come up with to the public. A public that has a very very limited understanding of the subject and has a bad habit of believing the lies of the antis' and falling to panic whenever they get stirred up.

It ain't so easy as you say.

conger
02-28-2014, 09:22 PM
You speak the truth sir. One thing that is very difficult about this is that the process and people behind it are very secretive. One thing is for sure, what they do now is not the right people or process.

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Haywire1
02-28-2014, 09:38 PM
I served, and am very familiar with how the govt works. disbanding the regiment took no time at all to do. Do they disband Regiments all the time? of course not, i was using that as an example. perhaps I should have been more verbose in my response. And yes, it is ridiculously easy to fix the issue, and to accomplish a lot with the stroke of a pen. being as this is a discussion of the creation of thousands of criminals by that very act, I think that proves my point. are there technical issues regarding what to replace it with? of course there are. didnt take them long to create the cfc in the first place now did it. I am simply stating that the issue regarding the rcmp doing the classifications is an easy one to fix, remove the cfc from rcmp control.

I am politically active, esp on this issue, and am familiar with how politics works. See my thread on what I was busy doing today. monday the phone calls I have not made today begin.

berger
02-28-2014, 09:44 PM
I want a Swiss Classic so I can say I actually have a dog in this fight. Ashamed, but fighting Canadian here.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk

Angel 45
02-28-2014, 10:00 PM
I don't understand why you guys want clearer definitions of variant, and exact interpretations of C-68. Stop trying to fix C-68....it's intended purpose was to disarm Canadians, one person, and one gun at a time. I think we all knew that from the beginning. It didn't take much common sense to see what the liberals end goal was. Why do we keep saying it needs to be fixed....it doesn't need to be fixed....it needs to be abolished all together and and new legislation written with it's purpose being to keep guns away from criminals and does NOTHING to punish honest gun owners, including slagging us with BS, unnecessary paperwork and process. ANY reference to the RCMP having the power to make rules/regulations/policy/paper hats, or what the f--- ever must NOT appear in ANY way. If the RCMP think something has to change, they can damned well contact parliament the same way we have to. Sorry...this is turning in to a rant. The long and the short of it is, I think we should stop asking for the government to fix this and that with C-68, and we need to start DEMANDING that they change it out with common sense regulations that can't make us criminals with the swipe of a pen.

Well said

Haywire1
02-28-2014, 10:04 PM
I dont own a Swiss, nor do I own a CZ. Having said that, We all have a dog in the fight, it sits in our wallets and has the acronym of R/PAL. High River, Swiss Arms, CZ858, refusing to follow the law and de register antiques. Everyone has a dog in the fight. History has taught us they wont stop with just a couple reclassifications. A gun grab from one is a grab from us all in one way or another

conger
02-28-2014, 10:05 PM
I dont own a Swiss, nor do I own a CZ. Having said that, We all have a dog in the fight, it sits in our wallets and has the acronym of R/PAL. High River, Swiss Arms, CZ858, refusing to follow the law and de register antiques. Everyone has a dog in the fight. History has taught us they wont stop with just a couple reclassifications. A gun grab from one is a grab from us all in one way or another

Took the words right out of my mouth.

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exmilitary
02-28-2014, 10:20 PM
This was just posted on the CGOA. And I see PrairieDog just posted the same thing in a different thread.
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Robert Alexander‎Concerned Gun Owners of Alberta (and Canada)
14 minutes ago
Have just received a full briefing from CSSA on the Swiss Arms, CZ858, and several other topics. There's some good things coming but I am not at liberty to discuss yet -- we've had a couple VERY busy days with the folks in Ottawa. Gov't needs a few days to get things in order.

Not everything you've heard is correct -- some premature misinformation has gotten out.

Not trying to play "secret squirrel" here, this is just the way it is with gov't. I'm told I'll be able to give some details Monday or Tuesday. Don't get rid of any guns yet.

Keep calm and carry on.

That is all.
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For what it's worth.
https://m.facebook.com/groups/376543929052940?view=permalink&id=737806382926691

Camo tung
02-28-2014, 10:23 PM
This was just posted on the CGOA
-----------
Robert Alexander‎Concerned Gun Owners of Alberta (and Canada)
14 minutes ago
Have just received a full briefing from CSSA on the Swiss Arms, CZ858, and several other topics. There's some good things coming but I am not at liberty to discuss yet -- we've had a couple VERY busy days with the folks in Ottawa. Gov't needs a few days to get things in order.

Not everything you've heard is correct -- some premature misinformation has gotten out.

Not trying to play "secret squirrel" here, this is just the way it is with gov't. I'm told I'll be able to give some details Monday or Tuesday. Don't get rid of any guns yet.

Keep calm and carry on.

That is all.
--------
For what it's worth.


For what it's worth? Even my colon says pffffttt!
Its this type of "secrecy" that fosters distrust in government. If they see a resolution why the "few days" wait as noted on the CASD page? Bullshit. There's an urgent matter currently on the hot stove, do the Fed Gov't and the RCMP no longer work weekends?

exmilitary
02-28-2014, 10:26 PM
You're asking the wrong cat. Just sharing what I saw. Do with it what you will. I don't have the answers you seek.

Foxer
02-28-2014, 10:26 PM
I hear some rumours as well, as i posted on another thread. I doubt the cssa had all that much to do with it tho as usual i'm quite sure they'll claim it was all them :) But i think harper is sick to death of being made to look the ass and wear it every time they pull this, especially since they've pulled it so much in the last couple years.

The volume of complaints is apperently staggering.

Camo tung
02-28-2014, 10:30 PM
You're asking the wrong cat. Just sharing what I saw. Do with it what you will. I don't have the answers you seek.

My colon has no quarrels with you! This is the second site (the other being the CASD) that essentially makes the same claims. Are they ALL sitting at the table with the Government over this? Who is disseminating the information and how are some "privileged" enough to look inside the tiny box and others are not? More game playing bullshit.

Foxer
02-28-2014, 10:31 PM
There's an urgent matter currently on the hot stove, do the Fed Gov't and the RCMP no longer work weekends?

Whether they do or don't, announcements are made when the work is done. Like i said - there's some indication they're putting something together, it will take several days at least to get their ducks in a row, and when they do they announce. That's how gov't works - you git what you git and don't throw a fit. :) It's been that way for 150 years now, lets not complain about it at this point. We'll know what they're going to do when they're sure what they're going to do.

Camo tung
02-28-2014, 10:32 PM
Whether they do or don't, announcements are made when the work is done. Like i said - there's some indication they're putting something together, it will take several days at least to get their ducks in a row, and when they do they announce. That's how gov't works - you git what you git and don't throw a fit. :) It's been that way for 150 years now, lets not complain about it at this point. We'll know what they're going to do when they're sure what they're going to do.

If you can believe CASD and CGOA the Gov't has already let it be known (to some) what they intend to do.

Foxer
02-28-2014, 10:34 PM
This is the second site (the other being the CASD) that essentially makes the same claims. Are they ALL sitting at the table with the Government over this? Who is disseminating the information and how are some "privileged" enough to look inside the tiny box and others are not? More game playing bullshit.

I don`t doubt they`re all screaming to the gov`t, i do doubt they`re having much impact in and of themselves individually, I don`t doubt they`ll all claim it was them if something positive happens. :)

Don`t worry about it - right now there`s some hints that the gov`t IS considering doing something, that they`re fed up. Lets keep up the pressure.

If the gov`t does something it`ll be because they think that many thousands of gun owners care about this and will vote and donate if they take action. Send that message and let the rest sort itself.

Camo tung
02-28-2014, 10:34 PM
Whether they do or don't, announcements are made when the work is done. Like i said - there's some indication they're putting something together, it will take several days at least to get their ducks in a row, and when they do they announce. That's how gov't works - you git what you git and don't throw a fit. :) It's been that way for 150 years now, lets not complain about it at this point. We'll know what they're going to do when they're sure what they're going to do.


Maybe the "chill" request is to buy some time as the ink isn't dry yet on the SKS and 10/22 bans?

exmilitary
02-28-2014, 10:34 PM
My colon has no quarrels with you! This is the second site (the other being the CASD) that essentially makes the same claims. Are they ALL sitting at the table with the Government over this? Who is disseminating the information and how are some "privileged" enough to look inside the tiny box and others are not? More game playing bullshit.

I get it. And with the upheavals this week, everyone is at max pucker factor.

Foxer
02-28-2014, 10:50 PM
Maybe the "chill" request is to buy some time as the ink isn't dry yet on the SKS and 10/22 bans?

snicker :) I doubt very much the gov`t is happy about ANY reclassifications right now :) They wind up wearing it whenever the rcmp does something stupid, and they`re sick of it. We`ll see what comes of it.

Camo tung
02-28-2014, 10:53 PM
snicker :) I doubt very much the gov`t is happy about ANY reclassifications right now :) They wind up wearing it whenever the rcmp does something stupid, and they`re sick of it. We`ll see what comes of it.

As usual, the voice of reason. I'll attempt to wait patiently this weekend. Thanks.

RobSmith
02-28-2014, 11:55 PM
Honestly Foxer, by now you have a lot more faith in the CPC than most people, including myself would. By now it's pretty clear that somebody will get thrown under the bus, the tricky part is figuring out who.


I don`t doubt they`re all screaming to the gov`t, i do doubt they`re having much impact in and of themselves individually, I don`t doubt they`ll all claim it was them if something positive happens. :)

Don`t worry about it - right now there`s some hints that the gov`t IS considering doing something, that they`re fed up. Lets keep up the pressure.

If the gov`t does something it`ll be because they think that many thousands of gun owners care about this and will vote and donate if they take action. Send that message and let the rest sort itself.

My thoughts exactly ... Gun owners have served their useful purpose but have now become a major PITA ...


Maybe the "chill" request is to buy some time as the ink isn't dry yet on the SKS and 10/22 bans?

Foxer
03-01-2014, 12:09 AM
Honestly Foxer, by now you have a lot more faith in the CPC than most people, including myself would. By now it's pretty clear that somebody will get thrown under the bus, the tricky part is figuring out who.

I have faith in politicians desire for self preservation. This has become a chronic nightmare for them, one they could ignore when it seemed like a 'one off' or the like with previous attempts, and when an election wasn't coming up in the immediate future.

I think however we'll see they're fed up with this nonsense and that they have to 'wear' it every time the RCMP messes with them, and as I said after the LGR was killed we probably won't see any more gun stuff out of them until close to the next election. This could be a very good opportunity to do something for gun owners that will not upset the general public too much (nobody likes the idea of having lawfully owned property stolen, the public will likely not get too worked up over this if they take action).

We'll see. They're thinking about it, they've now put out a media statement on it.

Waterloomike
03-01-2014, 02:50 AM
Remember who disbanded the Airborne. I do. Another nasty liberal.

Sent from my SGH-I747M using Tapatalk

It would be morally correct to disband the cfc in light of this. the airborne was making each other eat unowat. The cfc is making us eat unowat.

That said, it seems popular to make us eat unowat.

Waterloomike
03-01-2014, 02:51 AM
10/22 bans? WTF?

Rory McCanuck
03-01-2014, 03:19 AM
SR-22 is on the scary list, I think?

Waterloomike
03-01-2014, 03:53 AM
SR-22 is on the scary list, I think?

So not 10/22s?

BrotherRockeye
03-01-2014, 07:11 AM
10/22 bans? WTF?

and that is how easy it is to get the ball rolling...

pretty sure the original poster was being facetious.

Ben
03-01-2014, 07:15 AM
So it begs to wonder what the "coming news in the spring" that the NFA baited over our heads a couple of weeks ago will play with in the bigger picture of this SAN / 858 prohibition orders.

Will it accelerate whatever was going to be announce?

Will it delay it?

Waterloomike
03-01-2014, 09:20 AM
and that is how easy it is to get the ball rolling...

pretty sure the original poster was being facetious.

That's good news.

Tower
03-01-2014, 09:55 AM
The RCMP are just testing the waters on this move, if they can get away with this there will be lots more to come. If you own any kind of semi auto military looking firearm you will be targeted.

conger
03-01-2014, 09:59 AM
Maybe just a short jump to different types of handguns after they are done with semi-autos.

Sent from my SGH-I747M using Tapatalk

BrotherRockeye
03-01-2014, 11:10 AM
Maybe just a short jump to different types of handguns after they are done with semi-autos.

Sent from my SGH-I747M using Tapatalk

they have already changed their "interpretation" of the antique regs for handguns...

Deerslayer270
03-01-2014, 11:20 AM
One thing out of all this im wondering is if they were to show up at john doe's door and request his swiss arms green rifle how would they justify knowing he had it with the lgr supposedly destroyed? I realize the rcmp has not said how they plan on going about getting these firearms yet. Other then of coarse john doe bringing his rifle to them.

I know theres alot going on and this might seem like a less-important question but i am curious. Any thoughts?

RobSmith
03-01-2014, 11:22 AM
Pretty clear by now that continuing support for the CPC for many people will hinge on how they handle this situation. Since this is a 12(3) matter a simple OIC change may not do the trick here.

RobSmith
03-01-2014, 11:27 AM
I guess the simple answer is they don't need to "justify" anything to you or anybody else. There are ways that lists could be compiled but they would be labor intensive. Besides, the SQ is still using the old registry so it would be foolish to think that the RCMP doesn't "consult" with them and end up having access to the old registry data thru a backdoor, one that of course they could justify simply by stating that <they> aren't using it, they are simply getting somebody that still has legal use of it to compile reports which they then use.


One thing out of all this im wondering is if they were to show up at john doe's door and request his swiss arms green rifle how would they justify knowing he had it with the lgr supposedly destroyed? I realize the rcmp has not said how they plan on going about getting these firearms yet. Other then of coarse john doe bringing his rifle to them.

I know theres alot going on and this might seem like a less-important question but i am curious. Any thoughts?

Foxer
03-01-2014, 11:31 AM
Pretty clear by now that continuing support for the CPC for many people will hinge on how they handle this situation True, and we need to send that message. The over all message should be "Hey - we know you don't control the cops so this isn't your fault. But you CAN clean it up and solve the problem, and if you don't then it IS your fault, and we'll be pretty pissed. So.. clean it up, fix the problem, and we're all good and gun owners will be thankful". If the CPC gets that message (and I think they are to a degree) then they will be more likely to do something 'permanent' :)


. Since this is a 12(3) matter a simple OIC change may not do the trick here.

I doubt they'd go that route anyway - politically it's not strong. That's been the problem in the past, it's been about a specific gun that's being banned and that leaves them open to critisizm. But - if they take the angle that this isn't about any one gun but rather is about an ongoing and systemic problem whereby the cops screw up in the past and then take lawful guns from people when they 'correct' their mistakes, then that's going to have a lot more public sympathy and it's harder to critisize them effectively. It was harder to go that route when it was just the type97's, or the next one etc etc, but now it's really starting to look like this is an ongoing and chronic problem and that gives them a real 'out' with the public. Everyone's going to get the idea that if the cops say a gun is fine, lets us buy it and spend money, then turns around and demands it back without compensation and does it AGAIN AND AGAIN that this is not ok.

Especially after high river. A lot of the gen public sympathized with gun owners over that and it cast doubt on the motives of the RCMP.

Foxer
03-01-2014, 11:34 AM
I guess the simple answer is they don't need to "justify" anything to you or anybody else.

Well, there's the onion isn't it. At the end of the day they will find a way to spin it and they don't have to justify it. But i doubt they'll do a LOT of that. In the end, they know that most will comply and those who don't will be driven underground, and in the end they've killed off another gun and scared everyone against buying anything that 'might be banned in the future".

We went thru this with the spaz 12 remember, long before the registry. There are still some out there but for the most part they've been wiped out.

Waterloomike
03-01-2014, 12:47 PM
One thing out of all this im wondering is if they were to show up at john doe's door and request his swiss arms green rifle how would they justify knowing he had it with the lgr supposedly destroyed? I realize the rcmp has not said how they plan on going about getting these firearms yet. Other then of coarse john doe bringing his rifle to them.

I know theres alot going on and this might seem like a less-important question but i am curious. Any thoughts?

Vendor logs.

RD777
03-01-2014, 01:24 PM
I checked with the retailer I purchased from. He informed me that they do not keep ANY personal info from their non restricted firearm sales. So I know if I get a letter/visit they will have used prohibited/illegal registry information.

Waterloomike
03-01-2014, 01:56 PM
I checked with the retailer I purchased from. He informed me that they do not keep ANY personal info from their non restricted firearm sales. So I know if I get a letter/visit they will have used prohibited/illegal registry information.

Lucky you.

Ontario is not so lucky.

Foxer
03-01-2014, 02:22 PM
Lucky you.

Ontario is not so lucky.
THey're not supposed to be keeping any - last few times i bought here they didnt' even write it down, just looked at the license and 'Here's yer gun".

Camo tung
03-01-2014, 03:02 PM
That's good news.

Sorry but the SR22 is on "the list", mentioned by name. RCMP mention it in Section 6 under AR family of firearms. What is their intent with it?

http://static.globalnews.ca/content/interactives/documents/general_news_bucket/A-2012-00068.PDF

Waterloomike
03-01-2014, 03:57 PM
Sorry but the SR22 is on "the list", mentioned by name. RCMP mention it in Section 6 under AR family of firearms. What is their intent with it?

http://static.globalnews.ca/content/interactives/documents/general_news_bucket/A-2012-00068.PDF

Well that sucks, too. but I was asking about 10/22s.

Waterloomike
03-01-2014, 04:02 PM
THey're not supposed to be keeping any - last few times i bought here they didnt' even write it down, just looked at the license and 'Here's yer gun".

But here in good ole bantario, where you need a government employee to tell you how to cross the street, I believe it all goes into a log. For ammo, they just verify your card, but guns and wyatt has to know all about it.

Foxer
03-01-2014, 04:17 PM
But here in good ole bantario, where you need a government employee to tell you how to cross the street, I believe it all goes into a log. For ammo, they just verify your card, but guns and wyatt has to know all about it.

I really thought that was not legal any more. Federally at least they passed a law specifically saying 'no registries of any kind". Perhaps the ontario gov't found a loophole in provincial laws. That royally sucks.

Haywire1
03-01-2014, 04:21 PM
mike, an SR22 is simply a 10/22 in a factory "aftermarket" style stock that accepts AR furniture. they go after the SR22, guaranteed every 10/22 will be a variant, since it is the exact same rifle

Camo tung
03-01-2014, 04:26 PM
Well that sucks, too. but I was asking about 10/22s.

They'll drag out a word they're quite fond of using...."variant".