PDA

View Full Version : Stephen Blaney confirms Amnesty for 5 years....



Steveo9mm
03-14-2014, 12:55 PM
french and english versions below. posted on the NFA facebook page.


Please find below my statement announcing the entry into force of amnesty for owners of firearms involved. Our government will continue to defend the owners abiding gun laws .

"Our government has always defended the hunters, farmers and law-abiding shooters .

Recent decisions by the Canadian Firearms Program had the effect of exposing thousands of Canadians and law-abiding Canadians to possible criminal sanctions. The owners of firearms affected can be assured that they will face no penalty because of the continued possession of their property.

In addition, our government is committed to go beyond the amnesty that was put in place to protect owners abiding gun law criminal sanctions until a permanent solution is in instead. We intend to introduce measures in the coming weeks to protect all owners of firearms abiding such retroactive and unpredictable decisions



Veuillez trouver ci-dessous ma déclaration annonçant l'entrée en vigueur de l'amnistie pour les propriétaires d'armes à feu concernées. Notre gouvernement continuera de défendre les propriétaires d'armes à feu respectueux des lois.

«Notre gouvernement a toujours défendu les chasseurs, les agriculteurs et les tireurs sportifs respectueux des lois.

Les récentes décisions rendues par le Programme canadien des armes à feu ont eu pour effet d'exposer des milliers de Canadiennes et Canadiens respectueux des lois à de possibles sanctions pénales. Les propriétaires des armes à feu touchées peuvent être assurés qu'ils ne seront confrontés à aucune sanction en raison de la possession continue de leur bien.

De plus, notre gouvernement est déterminé à aller au-delà de l'amnistie qui a été mise en place afin de protéger les propriétaires d'armes à feu respectueux de la loi de sanctions pénales jusqu'à ce qu’une solution permanente soit en place. Nous avons l’intention d’introduire des mesures au cours des prochaines semaines afin de protéger tous les propriétaires d'armes à feu respectueux des lois de ce type de décisions rétroactives et imprévisibles

Steveo9mm
03-14-2014, 01:00 PM
So my questions are still the same. Can we use them? transport? sell?

Strewth
03-14-2014, 01:03 PM
So my questions are still the same. Can we use them? transport? sell?

Yah, I wonder if it was accidentally or deliberately vague with the "possession" wording. Either way, good to hear that the wheels are slooooooowly turning, I really wouldn't expect much more until April sometime; a March break must be nice to have.

Keeping the pressure up. 160 letters to go out to the CPC MPs this weekend.

Canuck223
03-14-2014, 02:50 PM
I just spent a week with people who speak Slovak and Czech as a first language. Every one of them could have written that statement clearer in Mandarin...

Steveo9mm
03-14-2014, 03:46 PM
apparantly now its only 2 years amnesty...

http://www.torontosun.com/2014/03/14/owners-of-recently-banned-guns-get-two-year-amnesty-period

harbl_the_cat
03-14-2014, 03:52 PM
apparantly now its only 2 years amnesty...

http://www.torontosun.com/2014/03/14/owners-of-recently-banned-guns-get-two-year-amnesty-period

That will take us right through the next election.

In other words - you'd better vote Conservative, or else you'll lose your guns in March 2016.

I hope that's a mistake.

Steveo9mm
03-14-2014, 04:01 PM
*puts on tinfoil hat "I doubt its a mistake, more of a tactic..." *takes off tinfoil hat

blacksmithden
03-14-2014, 04:06 PM
I just spent a week with people who speak Slovak and Czech as a first language. Every one of them could have written that statement clearer in Mandarin...

FOR THE.WIN !!!!!!!!!!!!

KePet
03-14-2014, 10:16 PM
Just posted on the NFA page. We can keep them for 2 years, but we can't use them. Transport only the RCMP for destruction, or to a museum or other place liscensed to possess it etc. etc. etc. Keep the letters going. Another one sent tonight. We need to keep pushing for them to fix this before the election, or it's never going to get done.

One More Time: WE CAN KEEP THEM, BUT WE CAN'T USE THEM

blacksmithden
03-14-2014, 10:32 PM
Yep....^^^^...that. This is nothing more than another dangling carrot to try and suck in the gun owner vote, and it's a pretty damned pathetic one at that. Personally, as far as I'm concerned, they can stick that carrot where the sun don't shine. This "amnesty" is nothing short of an insult to our intelligence. You lose us Mr Prime Minister, you'd better get used to looking like Kim Campbell part 2. Official party status lost with you at the helm doesn't look very damned good. Sorry...but I'm not going for the carrot. This horse isn't going to budge until some REAL action is taken by the CPC.

Waterloomike
03-15-2014, 04:02 AM
apparantly now its only 2 years amnesty...

http://www.torontosun.com/2014/03/14/owners-of-recently-banned-guns-get-two-year-amnesty-period

They called them 'weapons'.

Canuck223
03-15-2014, 07:23 AM
Yep....^^^^...that. This is nothing more than another dangling carrot to try and suck in the gun owner vote, and it's a pretty damned pathetic one at that. Personally, as far as I'm concerned, they can stick that carrot where the sun don't shine. This "amnesty" is nothing short of an insult to our intelligence. You lose us Mr Prime Minister, you'd better get used to looking like Kim Campbell part 2. Official party status lost with you at the helm doesn't look very damned good. Sorry...but I'm not going for the carrot. This horse isn't going to budge until some REAL action is taken by the CPC.

Real action on this has to start with an amnesty.

The CPC can't mandate that the RCMP reverse the decision, because at the moment the RCMP are the defacto experts, even if they lack the expertise.

The CPC can't mandate that the RCMP not prosecute a specific crime, even if we view it as no crime at all.

The CPC can't just Obama the situation with an OIC, as that leaves the matter open to reversal.

The first immediate step has to be an amnesty, followed immediately by corrective legislation.

Waterloomike
03-15-2014, 08:02 AM
Real action on this has to start with an amnesty.

The CPC can't mandate that the RCMP reverse the decision, because at the moment the RCMP are the defacto experts, even if they lack the expertise.

The CPC can't mandate that the RCMP not prosecute a specific crime, even if we view it as no crime at all.

The CPC can't just Obama the situation with an OIC, as that leaves the matter open to reversal.

The first immediate step has to be an amnesty, followed immediately by corrective legislation.

As long as that's what they do. Because 'can't' never did anything.

Foxer
03-15-2014, 11:10 AM
Well guys, this probably isn't going to be my most popular post, but lets have a quick reality check here.

What is the first thing many of the gun owners who responded in writing said to the CPC? "I am going to withhold or give away the money you were going to get". In short - a threat.

The cpc is now making it a two year amnesty which will die shortly after the next election. I am QUITE sure they are working on a permanent solution, and i'm farily sure that they will not be able to pass AND implement the solution before the next election. It might well pass as law, but it will take time to bring into force. It might also NOT pass in time for the next election and would have to be passed just AFTER the next election.

The message is clear - If you want us to stand up for you, you need to stand up for us because if we lose we can't help you. And i'm sorry - that's ENTIRELY FAIR OF THEM TO DO. We have been fickle supporters at best. We constantly threaten to withdraw support from them at the drop of a hat. Now some here want to blame them for being cautious in how they support us?

Here's the deal - no matter what they do, even if they do get something new passed and in place before the next election - if the CPC loses the next election you can bet we will be under constant attack from whomever gets in. None of the other parties like us.

So. Maybe some people here need to stop talking about how they're going to hurt the cpc and need to focus a little more on how they're going to help them. I don't trust any political party and i'll want to see what their plan turns out to be - but if the plan is even decent then we'd best be thinking about how we're going to help them win the next election or I doubt we'll get ANY plan at all, and the cops will go to town on us.

Support is a two way street.

Relic49
03-15-2014, 01:59 PM
Very well put Foxer!!! People don't like to hear the truth.

Haywire1
03-15-2014, 02:09 PM
While you make some valid points foxer, the fact remains we are treated like crap by the CPC. I dont expect firearms rights to be at the forefront of their concerns, but when we are told 5 year amnesty, decision recinded, and get a 2 year amnesty and basically grandfathered, and owners still face jail time if they use the firearms the way they have for 12 freakin years, I do expect either a lot more information as to what their plans are, from either the nfa, the cssa, and at the least an explanation as to why they lied about the amnesty in the first place. "Wait until after the election" is crap to be blunt. We vote CPC, they deal with one issue (lgr), next election one issue (swissarms/cz issue), whats next? The RCMP reclassify the 10/22 or the m305, and after another election.... etc. Fix it once and for all. A lot of people are aware of this issue right now, and even non firearms owners are amazed to find we can be made into criminals by a bureaucrat almost doubling the criminal population overnight, let alone the personal property potion of the issue.

Sent from my SGH-T989D using Tapatalk

Haywire1
03-15-2014, 02:15 PM
Also it only took 5 months to pass bill c19 from start to finish, there is still 9 months left in this year, so getting a new firearms act passed and in place before the election shouldnt be an issue, esp considering they have the exact same majority

Sent from my SGH-T989D using Tapatalk

Foxer
03-15-2014, 02:48 PM
While you make some valid points foxer, the fact remains we are treated like crap by the CPC. I dont expect firearms rights to be at the forefront of their concerns, but when we are told 5 year amnesty, decision recinded, and get a 2 year amnesty and basically grandfathered, and owners still face jail time if they use the firearms the way they have for 12 freakin years, I do expect either a lot more information as to what their plans are, from either the nfa, the cssa, and at the least an explanation as to why they lied about the amnesty in the first place

See - this is why they don't trust us. That is not treating you like crap. Sorry. They are not your personal secratary. I doubt they even know what their final plan will be yet, i suspect all they know at this point is that they have to make changes to take it out of the hands of the cops. Will that mean an advisory board? A seperate institute for firearms testing? Will the cops get to vet it at all? How much do those options cost? etc etc. So there probably isn't a "lot more" information to give at this time

As to use - i suspect they ran into a slight problem with the law. It's one thing to amnesty from ownership, but I'm thinking the lawyers told them there were issues with amnesty from use of a firearm classified as prohib'd.

But you DEMAND more of them. Right - because otherwise you're going to.. what? Go with justin? Try that for 4 years and we'll have a talk about how 'unfair' it was that the cpc didn't have all your answers on the spot day one.

Nothing happens fast in gov't. Keep your expectations fair and real. Or you may just find out that we've actually been treated pretty fairly and learn a lesson about what it's really like to get treated like crap when justin takes over.

Foxer
03-15-2014, 02:57 PM
Also it only took 5 months to pass bill c19 from start to finish, there is still 9 months left in this year, so getting a new firearms act passed and in place before the election shouldnt be an issue, esp considering they have the exact same majority


It took about 2 years. Did you think they sat down and wrote the text of the bill in an afternoon? That text had been worked on, got buy in from various legal departments and ministries etc, got costed out and such for a long time before it ever hit the parliament, and had to wait till it got put on the table then. And it only managed it in 5 months of actual time in parliament because they cut down on the discussion time and the like.

9 months would be something close to light speed unless they're only changing regulation which can be done oic.

AND - AFTER it was passed it still took a LONG time to come into force. Even if quebec hadn't blocked it, just deleting the database wouldn't have happened till many months later. It took about 7 years for the libs to actually implement c-68 in full if you'll recall.

So as i said - even if they do pass it there's a good chance it won't be limplemented before the next election meaning the libs can kill the process if they get in.

Again - keep your expectation reasonable. The kinds of changes we're looking for will not happen quickly. And making unreasonable demands is a fast way to lose the CPC's support. I mean, why bother trying to make people happy if it's impossible right?

WE're looking for a permanent solution that takes it away from the cops and is resistant to future abuses by hostile gov'ts. As long as things are moving along at a reasonable pace in that direction, be happy.

And if you want to be angry that political parties are not going to give you guarantees especially when we've been so iffy with our support.. well, you might as well give up now and turn in your guns because that's not the universe we live in.

awndray
03-15-2014, 02:57 PM
They had PLENTY of time to think of a solution. They failed. It really is that simple to me.

Foxer
03-15-2014, 03:00 PM
They had PLENTY of time to think of a solution. They failed. It really is that simple to me.

oh then by all means - try the libs. I'm sure they'll be much better.

And what do you mean 'plenty of time'? This came up a week or two ago. I'm sorry, but actually planning for a bill (even a simple one) is usually the work of months at best. Unless they've got a time machine they've had no time at all.

Waterloomike
03-15-2014, 03:07 PM
Nothing happens fast in gov't.

someone mentioned 5 months for bill c-19.



Keep your expectations fair and real.

You mean low expectations.



Or you may just find out that we've actually been treated pretty fairly and learn a lesson about what it's really like to get treated like crap when justin takes over.

Care to make a case for this fair treatment? Or perhaps some examples.

We're the ones that didn't do anything wrong.

Haywire1
03-15-2014, 03:16 PM
First your reading a few things into my comments that arent there. I never stated I would go with justin or angry Tom. Nor did I state I wanted them or viewed them as my personal secretary. I stated I expect not to be lied to by my elected representatives, who yes, do work for me. I am also familiar with how the govt works, as well as exactly how fast it can work when it is needed to. I happen to agree with you that many are fickle with support, however promising a relatively small thing (lgr) in exchange for gettiny a majority, then all signs pointing to the same over this issue does indeed make me angry. Yes the liberals were up in arms over scrapping the lgr, however the cost overruns made it a somewhat simple promise.

Do I demand more out of them? Yes as a matter of fact I do demand more of them. They are elected to represent the views of the people. Considering the amount of letters, emails, and meeting both formal and informal that I alone have had over the years, let alone countless thousands of other firearms owners, I do expect them do do a lot more. You mentioned OIC's considering fully auto and converted auto firearms are already prohibited by the criminal code, an OIC removing the swiss from the list of scary guns would have been a relatively easy start, not even requiring parliamentary debate.

Just for the record, I am not upset with you Foxer, nor your views. I am enjoying the back and forth. It sort of shows the different viewpoints and takes we all have. I have advocated patience in the past, but for me that ship has long since sailed

Camo tung
03-15-2014, 04:03 PM
They had PLENTY of time to think of a solution. They failed. It really is that simple to me.

Agree. Ever since getting the majority government. They COULD have appointed someone (Breitkreuz?) to review the Firearms Act and ammend, especially the contentious sections that produce paper criminals as we have pushed to change for years. THEY chose not to, and here we are today - 2 pen strokes and thousands of new criminals. The LGR abolition was a small, small step towards sensible firearms laws in Canada but they let the momentum slip away.

Strewth
03-15-2014, 04:19 PM
The LGR abolition was a small, small step towards sensible firearms laws in Canada but we let the momentum slip away.

Fixed it for me, so I don't forget.

Foxer
03-15-2014, 04:45 PM
someone mentioned 5 months for bill c-19.

Yes, and forgot to mention that was the tail end of an effort that spanned 6 years. :) And a good 2 years coming up with that final version which got tweaked right till the end.


You mean low expectations.

No, I mean real. If you think the gov't can come up with a new idea, get it turned into acceptable legal text, cost it, get it approved, get it on the table and push it thru overnight you're dreaming. That's just not real. That's like asking someone to work a 25 hour work day and complaining when they can't.


Care to make a case for this fair treatment? Or perhaps some examples.

Well gee, lets think about it.

They spent 6 years trying just about every year to kill the registry for us. Can you imagine how screwed we'd be with these classifications if that were still in place.

They brought in amnesties to protect us when the CFC was trying to have the cops go door to door everytime someone's license expired. There were 40,000 gun owners on the chopping block when they stepped in.

They basically killed the un marking scheme.

They screwed the UN small arms deal by insisting that 'sporting guns' be not included. Obama wasn't doing anything to stop it.

THey've stood up and demanded the cops stop harassing people for private sales with regards to keeping records. They stood up for us at high river too if you'll recall in the face of critisizm that they were 'interfering' with the police.

And now they're saying they'll change the laws/rules to take power away from the CFO's and cops when it comes to classifications.

Shall I compare that to the liberal record?


We're the ones that didn't do anything wrong.
Lots of people aren't doing anything wrong. But the bureaucracy in this country is against us, and we are NOT the cpc's top priority. We're A priority, but there's a lot of other things that are more important.

And we have failed to organize the way we should and 'play the game' the way it's played to get what we want.

And now we figure they'll cease work on all other projects and focus on us to get this done fast? That is not real. We CAN demand they put serious resources into this and do something, but it's not going to happen over night.

Foxer
03-15-2014, 04:55 PM
I stated I expect not to be lied to by my elected representatives, who yes, do work for me.

No, they don't. They work for the gov't. The gov't doesn't work for you either.

They're supposed to take your interests into account, but they don't work for you. Sorry. Unless you're cutting them a paycheque I don't know about.

They shouldn't lie, and that's true and they can be held to account. But it is no lie to say "we intend this" and to later say "we're now doing this because that's what works". That's called changing as you discover problems with your plan. Which is precisely why they don't want to tell you any more than they have to, because if it turns out they have to do something diffferent for some reason they didn't anticipate you're going to call them a liar.


Do I demand more out of them? Yes as a matter of fact I do demand more of them. They are elected to represent the views of the people.

I'm reminded of that great line from yes minister "I was elected to be their leader. I must follow them". :)

No, they weren't elected to represent the views of the people. That is called 'gov by polls' and it's what killed paul martin and made him a horrible leader. Obviously the views of the people matter, but they are not what they're elected to follow.

And you can bet that for every pro gun letter or suggestion they've had, there have been anti ones as well. Hell quebec is still fighting them over the LGR.


I happen to agree with you that many are fickle with support, however promising a relatively small thing (lgr) in exchange for gettiny a majority, then all signs pointing to the same over this issue does indeed make me angry. Yes the liberals were up in arms over scrapping the lgr, however the cost overruns made it a somewhat simple promise.

Well too damn bad!!! That's how politics works, it's worked that way for a few hundred years now and will likely work that way for many to come. We do something for them, they do something for us. That's pretty much the way the whole world works - it would be like being angry that your boss wanted you to work last week for a paycheck and the cheeky monkey demands you work ANOTHER week to get another one.

What gave you the idea that you're going to get handed something without giving something for it?

And the LGR was NOT 'easy'. Not in the slightest. There's still lawsuits over it.


Just for the record, I am not upset with you Foxer, nor your views. I am enjoying the back and forth. It sort of shows the different viewpoints and takes we all have. I have advocated patience in the past, but for me that ship has long since sailed

I didn't think you were at all :) I'm not mad with you either or the like. However, at the end of the day if you know how the gov't works you know that a lot of what's being expressed here is unreasonable. The CPC would do well to push changes to the law thru by the next election, they will be unlikely to be able to implement them. Unless they're just going to make changes to regulation and we're looking for something pretty substantial.

This really isn't something to get emotional over - we want something, we apply pressure we do the right things, and eventually we get it. But nothing is for nothing and nothing happens fast.

Grizz
03-15-2014, 05:03 PM
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Foxer
03-15-2014, 05:04 PM
Agree. Ever since getting the majority government. They COULD have appointed someone (Breitkreuz?) to review the Firearms Act and ammend, especially the contentious sections that produce paper criminals as we have pushed to change for years.

They did. And it went badly. And we have not 'pushed' for change since the LGR, we've run around like chickens sans heads demanding everything and anything under the sun from relatively minor changes to att's to the scrapping of all gun laws with no replacement.

With the LGR we spoke with one voice. Now we're just noise. We can discuss how that happened, but I did predict several times right as the LGR was dying that if we did not seize the momentum and organize behind ONE or possibly two next steps that we would all demand, nothing would happen. We did not. Nothing happened. Big shock.

Now, hopefully, we're back to speaking with one voice demanding permanent changes to the classification system and we might just get what we want or something very close to it. Hard to say, but at least the chance is there.

We can't blame them for our mistakes. The gov't will take action and has done so when gun owners speak in one voice for a clear and specific change. We did not, and they did not.

Foxer
03-15-2014, 05:05 PM
Fixed it for me, so I don't forget.

Precisely. We let the momentum slip. We are getting it back with this latest incident. Hopefully we'll learn from it.

webster
03-15-2014, 06:00 PM
The way I see it, the CPC still has my vote, and the funds will start flowing when steps are taken to fix this. I donated when C-19 was introduced, and then again when it was passed. Same deal here. Typically, you pay for a product or service after it has been provided. That's how I'm approaching this issue, and I'm telling them as much. I don't believe an amnesty counts as concrete steps, though. It's a band-aid.

Haywire1
03-15-2014, 06:31 PM
Well technically yes the govt does work for me. And you, and every other taxpayer and voters in the country. The government exists to govern, and make choices based on the views of its populace. If it didnt then we would have a straight monarchy. We elect representatives who most closely reflect our views.

That aside, yes swapping the lgr for a majority is fair, as I am on my phone I expressed myself poorly. Perhaps it would have been better to say I was hoping for a lot more than what we got. I am emotional over this issue, as I have family who are affected by the amnesty and prohibition

Sent from my SGH-T989D using Tapatalk

Steveo9mm
03-15-2014, 06:59 PM
Im on haywires side.

Im also a pissed off owner of an 858. Bought it, cleaned it and the next week they told me it was now banned. I havnt even shot it. Now i get to stare at it for the next 2 years. Then what happens. Drive it to the gun pound so they can put it to sleep? they take my taxes so yes they work for me. Thats the tucking point of a government... is to work for the people. Now they are taking taxes and working against me.

Amnesty is for criminals, compensation is for victims. I am neither.

Or at least i wasnt 2 weeks ago, now Im both? What mousetard logic this whole system is... Grrrrrrrr

Edited for fbombs ;)

Haywire1
03-15-2014, 07:05 PM
Actually we are all on the same side in this whether we own the rifles or not. Foxer is presenting the rational logical Vulcan view while I tend more towards the Klingon hot headed view. Oops I think I let my inner geek out for a moment

Sent from my SGH-T989D using Tapatalk

Steveo9mm
03-15-2014, 07:10 PM
Im full a full on rabid klingon with gagh hanging out of my mouth and a .20 bloodwine count

Kaplah

desiel
03-15-2014, 07:42 PM
Finally some rational thinking without ranting thank you goc. After the last couple weeks of dont vote, vote libratarian bla bla bla. With out our support they cant support us. How many jumped one the cssa and nfa bandwagon this month. How about the other shooting disiplains like silolette ipsa idpa small bore big bore etc have you joined. Our community is still seperated we are not much better than the compound bow hunters crossbow hunters and longbow hunters that fight between themselves even though they are all hunters. The more you threaten the less we will get and thats what the antis want.
Sorry for the rant but i am full of the bs.
Desiel

Haywire1
03-15-2014, 08:05 PM
oh I have not said I wouldnt support or vote for the CPC, the other parties are not even options. I just wish I didnt have to feel like I need a shower after I vote. On calmer reflection, Foxer has a valid point. As much as I want transparency in Govt, I want to be able to blindside the Anti's more.

awndray
03-15-2014, 08:45 PM
oh then by all means - try the libs. I'm sure they'll be much better.

And what do you mean 'plenty of time'? This came up a week or two ago. I'm sorry, but actually planning for a bill (even a simple one) is usually the work of months at best. Unless they've got a time machine they've had no time at all.

Who said anything about Liberals?

C-68 has been around for more than a few weeks.

blacksmithden
03-15-2014, 08:48 PM
Actually we are all on the same side in this whether we own the rifles or not. Foxer is presenting the rational logical Vulcan view while I tend more towards the Klingon hot headed view. Oops I think I let my inner geek out for a moment

Sent from my SGH-T989D using Tapatalk

This I understand ! :)


Foxer...I have nothing but the utmost respect for you. Your ability to put forth clarity of thought during emotional, and inflamed situations has impressed me to no end for many years now. Under the current circumstances, I'm with Haywire. I've had enough of the Conservatives moving along at half of dead slow speed on the firearms issue. There is no way anyone will tell me that they haven't had enough time to get a hell of a lot further than they have. My patience with them is pretty much at an end. Either they get some serious changes pushed through before the next election, or, in my, and many other eyes, they are no longer worth the extra effort many of us have exerted to get them, and keep them where they are. I'll never go out and vote for Turdeau Jr or that maniac "I didn't take my meds today" Tom.....but I'm done giving the Conservatives donations and my time. Who knows....maybe they'll surprise us all....at least we can hope.

Foxer
03-15-2014, 10:57 PM
Actually we are all on the same side in this whether we own the rifles or not. Foxer is presenting the rational logical Vulcan view while I tend more towards the Klingon hot headed view.

That is accurate, and more than a little disturbing :)

Grizz
03-16-2014, 12:12 AM
If you're not supporting or voting for the CPC you may as well cast your ballot for JT because they will win!! Shortly after, the men in jack boots will be at your door to get your toys.

The CPC may be slow to respond but we are also gaining significant ground with people who previously we not for or against guns. I've had quite a few people coming up to me lately who previously did not care outraged at how the RCMP and the antis are infringing on all our rights!!

How many non shooters spoke out last summer at how the RCMP overstepped in High River!! How many are speaking out now that the RCMP do not have the right to take private property or turn law abiding citizens into criminals overnight!! Last year.....none of them could have cared less about us or our arguments!!!!! We need to keep up the pressure COLLECTIVELY, get our word out COLLECTIVELY, be patient COLLECTIVELY and continue to let them hang themselves in the general public's eye.

The CPC stated the amnesty was a tactic to give them time to fix it. Give them an effin chance!!! Some if us are coming across like whiny little children....keep it up and we all will get spanked and sent to our rooms



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Waterloomike
03-16-2014, 05:16 AM
Yes, and forgot to mention that was the tail end of an effort that spanned 6 years. :) And a good 2 years coming up with that final version which got tweaked right till the end.



No, I mean real. If you think the gov't can come up with a new idea, get it turned into acceptable legal text, cost it, get it approved, get it on the table and push it thru overnight you're dreaming. That's just not real. That's like asking someone to work a 25 hour work day and complaining when they can't.



Well gee, lets think about it.

They spent 6 years trying just about every year to kill the registry for us. Can you imagine how screwed we'd be with these classifications if that were still in place.

They brought in amnesties to protect us when the CFC was trying to have the cops go door to door everytime someone's license expired. There were 40,000 gun owners on the chopping block when they stepped in.

They basically killed the un marking scheme.

They screwed the UN small arms deal by insisting that 'sporting guns' be not included. Obama wasn't doing anything to stop it.

THey've stood up and demanded the cops stop harassing people for private sales with regards to keeping records. They stood up for us at high river too if you'll recall in the face of critisizm that they were 'interfering' with the police.

And now they're saying they'll change the laws/rules to take power away from the CFO's and cops when it comes to classifications.

Shall I compare that to the liberal record?


Lots of people aren't doing anything wrong. But the bureaucracy in this country is against us, and we are NOT the cpc's top priority. We're A priority, but there's a lot of other things that are more important.

And we have failed to organize the way we should and 'play the game' the way it's played to get what we want.

And now we figure they'll cease work on all other projects and focus on us to get this done fast? That is not real. We CAN demand they put serious resources into this and do something, but it's not going to happen over night.

I don't think the un marking issue is dead.

Harper has done a few good things, I'll give him that.

It matters little how the Tories are excused or the few good things they have done.

What really matters is when we get the Right to own our property legally and finally.

And if we only excuse them from that fundamental task, in a so called modern democracy, (and I use the term very loosely) we are taking our eyes off the ball.

I agree that organization is the key and it's not happening.

But you're trying to defeat every argument that has recently become fairly solidified with a litany of excuses.

You seem to carry a lot of weight on here. why don't you use it to further solidify that cohesiveness? Like you did when we were discussing what are rights and what are privileges.

The right to own that property is more important and fundamental than just about every other issue. It's way past time to recognise that and quit making excuses for them.

Don't worry about me campaigning for the turd. That's not an issue.

Foxer
03-16-2014, 10:09 AM
I don't think the un marking issue is dead.


IT's pretty dead. The latest version of it basically says that guns must have a serial number :) They've given up on the stickers, as they don't stay stuck.


What really matters is when we get the Right to own our property legally and finally.


Well, to guarantee that we'd need to see constitutional change, and that's way beyond the power of the tories to make happen. That requires buy in from the provinces, and we're not going to get that right at the moment.

But - they CAN improve the situation by changing the 'classification' rules and laws to make it much harder to take our property by trickery like we've seen.


I agree that organization is the key and it's not happening.

But you're trying to defeat every argument that has recently become fairly solidified with a litany of excuses.


Not at all. The "arguments" i'm pointing out the flaws in mostly revolve around timelines and completely unrealistic expectations. Those aren't arguments, those are ill thought out pipe dreams. Some here have suggested that the CPC 'must' have a new law in place and implemented by the next election or support will be withdrawn. That's probably not real (unless it's done just by changes to regulation and I'd kind of like to see more than that).

Some have suggested the CPC have done nothing for us. That's not a very fair argument either.

Some have suggested that the entire act be scrapped and rebuilt - that would be wonderful but it's not practical. It would only happen if the CPC were prepared to make that their most important priority and we simply aren't - they would lose an election if they suggested that was more important than the economy and other considerations. We can be an important priority and have been in the past but we're just never going to be 'job one'. So the act will have to be re-written in sections, which is hard enough.

And of course the biggest fact - if we withdraw support, there's a good chance justin could win the next election and if you think we've got it bad now you will learn otherwise quickly. Therefore - we need to find a way to work with this gov't and keep them in power because we're not going to be getting any deals from another gov't.

Those are just facts - that's what we have to work with whether we like it or not.


You seem to carry a lot of weight on here. why don't you use it to further solidify that cohesiveness? Like you did when we were discussing what are rights and what are privileges.
Actually that's largely what i've been trying to do. As i've said in several other threads - the key is to apply pressure, speak in one voice with clear direction as to what we expect of the CPC, and make it equally clear that if they're doing the right thing we'll continue in our support.

But we need to be real about what the 'right thing' is. Here's what I would expect from them as a 'reasonably good job' of it so to speak: a statement of intent within 4-6 months (ie - we're going to set up an independant group to address classifications and will be changing the rules to make classifications more simple). The more they're going to do the longer it'll take, so i'll wait for that if we get something decent out of it. Then - I'd be looking for those changes to hit the parliament sometime in the next session (probably later in the session i would guess, february or the like). I would expect it would either be pushed thru or nearly done before the next election. There won't likely be time to impliment it. we will have to win the next election for it to actually come into force.

If they find a solution that doesn't involve changing the law somehow - then i'd expect it to be in place much sooner of course, but i'm not sure how they'll address all our concerns with regulation changes alone. But maybe they'll find a way.

The other choice is that they do some sort of stop gap measure now that's half assed and easily undone by the opposition in order to do something 'fast' to appease us. That doesn't work for me.

Do not mistake me - "Patience" should not be mistaken for "no action".

Here's what i'd propose in a perfect world - our two orgs would agree on what a minimum acceptable solution to this crisis would look like (shouldn't be that hard - changes to the rules to deal with the 'variant' issue and take the classification and testing away from the cops and put it in an independent body of industry experts.) Then - we the gun owners would write at least one letter a month between now and the time they announce the changes reminding them that we want to support them, we have supported them, we intend to in the future, but we can't until this is resolved and we're still waiting to hear the announcement AND we expect a solution similar to what's been proposed by our orgs (as i stated above).

When an acceptable solution and timeline is proposed, we send many thank you's and resume support. As long as they stick to the timeline we keep telling them they're doing ok. And in the meantime our orgs hammer on them and if the gov't needs specific encouragement they let us know and we hammer them. For example - "in our discussions the gov't has been reluctant to change the term 'variable' - pls send letters explaining why this is unacceptable". - 50,000 letters later perhaps the CPC reconsiders that specific issue.

We need to fight - we just need to fight smart. Constant pressure, rewards for good behavior, and co-ordination with the gun orgs. That's what will give us a big win here. The gov'ts already leaning the way we want, we just have to push till the fall over.

Steveo9mm
03-16-2014, 10:15 AM
:Argue:

Haywire1
03-16-2014, 10:16 AM
Scrapping the FA that we have and replacing it IS the solution that should be looked at. we may not be job 1, but if the libs and dip could make us job 1 long enough to pass the mess we have now, than the tories could make us job 1 long enough to permanently fix the issue.


Do not mistake me - "Patience" should not be mistaken for "no action".

Here's what i'd propose in a perfect world - our two orgs would agree on what a minimum acceptable solution to this crisis would look like (shouldn't be that hard - changes to the rules to deal with the 'variant' issue and take the classification and testing away from the cops and put it in an independent body of industry experts.) Then - we the gun owners would write at least one letter a month between now and the time they announce the changes reminding them that we want to support them, we have supported them, we intend to in the future, but we can't until this is resolved and we're still waiting to hear the announcement AND we expect a solution similar to what's been proposed by our orgs (as i stated above).

When an acceptable solution and timeline is proposed, we send many thank you's and resume support. As long as they stick to the timeline we keep telling them they're doing ok. And in the meantime our orgs hammer on them and if the gov't needs specific encouragement they let us know and we hammer them. For example - "in our discussions the gov't has been reluctant to change the term 'variable' - pls send letters explaining why this is unacceptable". - 50,000 letters later perhaps the CPC reconsiders that specific issue.

We need to fight - we just need to fight smart. Constant pressure, rewards for good behavior, and co-ordination with the gun orgs. That's what will give us a big win here. The gov'ts already leaning the way we want, we just have to push till the fall over.

now that I wholeheartedly agree with

Grizz
03-16-2014, 10:26 AM
Haywire1 - "our two orgs would agree on what a minimum acceptable solution to this crisis"

Maybe they too need to be told by the entire gun community that enough is enough and that they WILL find some common ground and agree on one agenda to move forward on.

The CPC are not the only ones that can and should be held accountable by us. If both orgs put their ego aside for the greater good and synchronized our voice would be significantly stronger!!!





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Foxer
03-16-2014, 10:27 AM
Scrapping the FA that we have and replacing it IS the solution that should be looked at.

You know what - i phrased that poorly. You're entirely right, but what I SHOULD have said is "scrapping the FA in one blow and replacing it at the same time" is not a practical solution.

It's just too big and complicated to do it all in one shot. It would take years of work, and we're just not that high a priority. Chretien took years to do it, and almost a decade to implement his changes, because he had massive public support for more gun laws after columbine and almost all of that support was in key areas he needed to win. There's little chance we'll ever see that level of support for our cause, so we're just not going to be at the top of the list.

Which doesn't mean we can't be reasonably high up on the list :) But that would mean rewriting the act one section at a time. We'll still wind up with a completely new firearms act - just not all at once.


now that I wholeheartedly agree with

It's the best plan for a total victory with respect to the current issue - and that would be a major step forward for us.

Haywire1
03-16-2014, 10:29 AM
it isnt just the CPC I have been letter writing to bud. the cssa and the nfa are also on the list.

Grizz
03-16-2014, 10:32 AM
First off let me thank you, Foxer and all the other top dogs for everything you are doing for us!!

You are writing both of them but how many of US are as well? I myself have not thought about doing this until now!!!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Foxer
03-16-2014, 10:33 AM
Maybe they too need to be told by the entire gun community that enough is enough and that they WILL find some common ground and agree on one agenda to move forward on.

No 'maybe' about it. I should have included that in my post. This is one of those times where they need to come together and make peace as to what we're asking for. The gov't is like a dog - you have to give it clear instructions, you can't confuse it with more than one order at a time or it just sits there and looks confused or buggers off and does it's own thing :)

For me, there's two major components here and they're easy to articulate - we need the classification process removed from the RCMP and put into the hands of experts (not some gov't committee of people who have no idea) and we need to clarify and simplify some definitions, especially around what a variant is and what 'easily converted' means, so that there's no 'wiggle room' for interpretation down the road. If we got that and it was done well - that's a major major win for us.

Our orgs have to understand that this is the goal and that if they DON'T work together to make that happen we're not going to be very impressed with them at all.

Strewth
03-16-2014, 10:39 AM
But we need to be real about what the 'right thing' is. Here's what I would expect from them as a 'reasonably good job' of it so to speak: a statement of intent within 4-6 months (ie - we're going to set up an independent group to address classifications and will be changing the rules to make classifications more simple). The more they're going to do the longer it'll take, so i'll wait for that if we get something decent out of it. Then - I'd be looking for those changes to hit the parliament sometime in the next session (probably later in the session i would guess, February or the like). I would expect it would either be pushed thru or nearly done before the next election. There won't likely be time to implement it. we will have to win the next election for it to actually come into force.

So much sense in so few words.


Here's what i'd propose in a perfect world - our two orgs would agree on what a minimum acceptable solution to this crisis would look like (shouldn't be that hard - changes to the rules to deal with the 'variant' issue and take the classification and testing away from the cops and put it in an independent body of industry experts.) Then - we the gun owners would write at least one letter a month between now and the time they announce the changes reminding them that we want to support them, we have supported them, we intend to in the future, but we can't until this is resolved and we're still waiting to hear the announcement AND we expect a solution similar to what's been proposed by our orgs (as i stated above).

When an acceptable solution and timeline is proposed, we send many thank you's and resume support. As long as they stick to the timeline we keep telling them they're doing ok. And in the meantime our orgs hammer on them and if the gov't needs specific encouragement they let us know and we hammer them. For example - "in our discussions the gov't has been reluctant to change the term 'variable' - pls send letters explaining why this is unacceptable". - 50,000 letters later perhaps the CPC reconsiders that specific issue.

We need to fight - we just need to fight smart. Constant pressure, rewards for good behavior, and co-ordination with the gun orgs. That's what will give us a big win here. The gov'ts already leaning the way we want, we just have to push till the fall over.

This I think does not require a perfect world, this is merely what is required of all of us, including our orgs. Excellent post. (Sorry to chop off the rest of it, I liked the whole thing:))

Edenchef
03-16-2014, 11:17 AM
Do not mistake me - "Patience" should not be mistaken for "no action".

Here's what i'd propose in a perfect world - our two orgs would agree on what a minimum acceptable solution to this crisis would look like (shouldn't be that hard - changes to the rules to deal with the 'variant' issue and take the classification and testing away from the cops and put it in an independent body of industry experts.) Then - we the gun owners would write at least one letter a month between now and the time they announce the changes reminding them that we want to support them, we have supported them, we intend to in the future, but we can't until this is resolved and we're still waiting to hear the announcement AND we expect a solution similar to what's been proposed by our orgs (as i stated above).

When an acceptable solution and timeline is proposed, we send many thank you's and resume support. As long as they stick to the timeline we keep telling them they're doing ok. And in the meantime our orgs hammer on them and if the gov't needs specific encouragement they let us know and we hammer them. For example - "in our discussions the gov't has been reluctant to change the term 'variable' - pls send letters explaining why this is unacceptable". - 50,000 letters later perhaps the CPC reconsiders that specific issue.

We need to fight - we just need to fight smart. Constant pressure, rewards for good behavior, and co-ordination with the gun orgs. That's what will give us a big win here. The gov'ts already leaning the way we want, we just have to push till the fall over.

:agree: Great plan, well thought out, and laid out! Very much like toilet training a toddler(same mental development level and attention span). Baby steps.......constant and consistent pressure in the desired direction. Great, loud public celebration of correct behaviors; quiet, private condemnation of incorrect, by massive letter writing campaigns.

Cheers!