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View Full Version : UPDATE, new BAR all over the place.



Petamocto
03-14-2014, 05:27 PM
Hi everyone,

I would appreciate any experience with people who know what they are doing setting up a rifle, please. I have a lot of experience with military firearms, but I am the first to admit that I am a total rookie when it comes to buying new stuff and building my own system.

Last fall I bought a brand new Browning BAR in 30.06, and paired it with a new Leupold VX3, with Leupold rings. I did what I could to put it together, and used my friend's laser bore sighter to get it as close to true as I could. I then brought it to the range last fall, and it was all over the place, even from only 100. The rounds were scattered, and I couldn't even get a grouping to guide it on target.

I thought that it may be an issue with eye relief, so I pushed it an inch forward over the winter, lasered it again, and took it out again today. Same thing, completely all over the place, and I wasted about $100 in ammo chasing holes all over the place (if it was even on paper at all). Photo below shows it pushed forward; I found it necessary to lean into it for the 30.06, so any farther back and you can't lean into it.

At the end of the day I even set it up on a bench rest, and it was no better. Rounds all over the place.

I know it's not me, I have an out-of-the-box Mossberg MVP that I get super tight groups on, and I've never had this kind of problem shooting before in the military (always score "marksman"). The MVP came pre-assembled, though. I am not trying to claim that I'm an amazing shot, I'm not at all, I just know that I am not the limiting factor here.

I would even be happy just to get an "okay" grouping out of this set-up, but this now has me incredibly frustrated. I'm in for over $2,000 so far, and I have no idea what is going wrong. I don't need minute of angle, but we're talking 4 rounds that aren't even in the same square foot from 100, on a bipod or on a bench.

Can anyone think of reasons this may be happening? I think the screws are tight holding the scope down. The only other thing I have done to it is drilled a hole through the handguard so I could put a sling stud in it to attach a bipod. I don't think that is poking through and touching to gas tube, but even if it were, I don't think it would cause this sort of wonky shooting.

Any tips are appreciated, thank you. I can only assume that I have done something terribly wrong in setting this up.

Sean

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h143/SeanNewman/BAR_zpsa986dc64.jpg

blacksmithden
03-14-2014, 05:53 PM
Geeze man...I've got a BAR in 300 win mag, and it will shoot holes touching at 100 yards (has been done by someone with steadier hands than mine). I'm thinking there is something wonky in the scope. You didn't wind it off the end of it's adjustment trying to get it sighted in did you ? Do you have another scope you can try on it ? Mine has that boss barrel tuner on it, but I gave up playing with it and just did a proper load development. Even with it's most unhappy load, it only shot 2.5" groups. I know Leeps are good scopes, but I'm still leaning in that direction.

FALover
03-14-2014, 05:56 PM
I second that thought. Scope sounds wonky.

Petamocto
03-14-2014, 05:58 PM
Geeze man...You didn't wind it off the end of it's adjustment trying to get it sighted in did you ?...

Thank you for your reply.

No, so far I'm still good to go for click and I haven't maxed out yet. Every once in a while I will get something resembling 2/4 rounds that are only 6" apart, and when I try to adjust off those two I can click fine.

Waterloomike
03-14-2014, 07:10 PM
2 5 star reviews.

http://www.cabelas.ca/product/445/browning-bar-shorttrac-stalker-semi-auto-rifle

Petamocto
03-14-2014, 07:20 PM
Mine is actually a LongTrack because it's 30.06, but same diff.

The rifle is good-to-go, I only bought the thing after doing a ton of research and came to the conclusion that the Browning BAR was so awesome. I'm willing to pay more money to get something that is made well, that's why I went with this and the Leupold VX3. That's why this is even more maddening; I don't have $2,000 to throw around, so I thought by spending this money I was going to have something fantastic that would last me for decades.

Haywire1
03-14-2014, 07:47 PM
from what you have said, I have to agree with Den on this one. I would try a different scope on it, see if that makes a difference. I would also recommend trying a few different types of ammo in it as well. 5 shots of one kind, five of another kind. pick the one that groups the best and go from there.

M.T. Chambers
03-14-2014, 07:50 PM
My guess would be scope or mount problems, followed by warped forend wood, bad crown, etc.

stevesummit
03-14-2014, 07:58 PM
My guess would be scope or mount problems, followed by warped forend wood, bad crown, etc.

I would check the crown first as it is the most obvious and easiest to check ! Clean the crown and the. Shoot a string and look for an even pattern of carbon lines! If that checks out second would be to remount the scope and check the tracking to see if anything is loose or out of adjustment ! Where are you located ? I am sure someone that could help you with it.

lone-wolf
03-14-2014, 08:08 PM
Have someone else shoot it, the person shooting is a variable, might as well eliminate it too

Petamocto
03-14-2014, 08:12 PM
Thank you to everyone for replying. This was a brand-new rifle when I bought it, and the crown is practically flawless.

I have shot practically everything through it, from Remington 150-165, to Hornady Superformance 180. We're not talking about a grouping that goes from 4" to a grouping that's 2", we're talking about no ammo I use being able to get a grouping at all on a square foot target from 100.

stevesummit
03-14-2014, 08:14 PM
Might be worth a trip to a smith with a bore scope !

Rory McCanuck
03-14-2014, 08:23 PM
So you put together a new rifle and scope, put up a target at 100 yds, and don't get good groups freehand?
That's a whole bunch of variables to battle your way uphill through.

Ok, a few things.

Might as well start all over from scratch. Pull off your scope.
Stand your scope on a mirror, look through the objective lens, adjust so you only have one set of crosshairs. Now your scope is centered.
Looks like a Redfield base, good stuff. Were the screws Loctited? If not, pull 'em and do so. A dab of nail polish is actually a pretty good substitute if Loctite isn't on hand.
How did you turn in the front ring? Grab a section of dowel or broom handle, DON'T use your $600 scope as a prybar.
Loosen the adjuster screws for the rear ring, set your scope in the rings and tighten the front ring screws. They have loctite on them, right? Now tighten the rear ring's (Loctited) screws, and snug up the rear mount adjusting screws.

Now for at the range.
Put the rifle in a good solid rest, and set up a target at 25 yards.
Take a shot.
Assuming it isn't a dead center bullseye, line up the crosshairs on your aiming point again, and hold the rifle steady.
Now use the base adjusting screws to move the rear mount left or right so that the vertical crosshair moves to the bullet hole in the target. You should now be good for left and right.
For elevation, you'll have to use your judgement, but I've found close to dead on at 25yds is close to dead on at 100, certainly on the paper, anyways.
Now, I'd fire a group, from the rest, from 25 yards. If it's a nice tight group, hooray, but if it isn't, you should have some idea if it is the rifle or the scope. The BAR is a very smooth shooting rifle, if the rifle resets to what feels like the same spot, but the crosshairs don't, I'd suspect the scope may be at fault.
If everything resets back into what feels like the same spot, and the crosshairs line up, then I'd suspect the rifle.

All of this ammo is the same brand, weight, and lot number, right? What were they? It is entirely possible the rifle doesn't like the recipe.
Maybe remove the forearm, and set just the magazine floor plate on the rest.

About all I've got right now off the top of my head.

Petamocto
03-14-2014, 08:28 PM
Rory,

Thank you very much for your detailed reply. The common theme I am seeing is the Lock-Tight part, and that is one thing I can say that I haven't done. I cranked the sh!t out of it, but didn't actually Lock-Tight it. I have Blue, and I will strip it all down and start over tomorrow.

Rory McCanuck
03-14-2014, 08:34 PM
As I've gotten older, I've come to realize that if I want it to come apart again, I use never-seize.
If I don't want it to come apart again, Loctite.
It's actually kind of gratifying to take something apart 10 years later with no problem, and finding never-seize in there.


ETA:
BTW here's a schematic for you.
http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=0/sid=382/schematicsdetail/BAR

Strewth
03-14-2014, 10:04 PM
When you say crank the sh!t out it, that may be a little much. Does anyone around you have a inch/lb torque wrench? Snug plus a quarter turn with standard Allen keys is about right. I tighten in sequence (front left, rear right, front right, etc.)15-18 inch/lbs is usual for rings, overtightening can do bad things....generally consistent bad things though, not all over the paper bad.

How do the gaps look on your rings on all four corners? Equal? Should be within a matchbook cover of touching.

Beautiful rifle, by the way:).

BrotherRockeye
03-14-2014, 10:34 PM
send it to me. I'll git er shootin for ya! :p

because of the gas system on the BAR I doubt it's base/rings tightness if you snugged them up good to start. The problem didn't develop while you were shooting and I'd wager it didn't happen on the way to shooting...

first I'd pull the bipod stud and eliminate that variable. If it is touching something it could be throwing of the barrel harmonics.

if that doesn't work...

find someone with an old school grid style bore sighter. That'll find your problem toot sweet.

center crosshairs on grid,(remove bore sighter) shoot rifle,(replace bore sighter) check crosshairs. if they are still centered, it ain't the scope.
if they aren't, it is.

even Leupold can have a bad day...did the scope come via Canada Post? ;D

Xtreme
03-15-2014, 02:32 PM
even Leupold can have a bad day...did the scope come via Canada Post? ;D

I'm with that. I'd return it as defective and eliminate that as a possibility.

Sent from my SGH-I747M using Tapatalk

Petamocto
03-15-2014, 05:39 PM
No the scope did not come from Canada Post, I bought it at Bass Pro where I got the rifle.

Before I return anything, I'm going to bring it back there and see if they can't set it up for me properly, in case I've over/under tightened anything.

BrotherRockeye
03-15-2014, 05:54 PM
I'd pull the bipod stud and put a few rounds through it myself...

Petamocto
03-15-2014, 05:58 PM
I'd pull the bipod stud and put a few rounds through it myself...

Thank you. It's out now, but I really don't think that was an issue. I don't see any hint if having that screw touching anything inside on the gas tube inside the forearm handguard, but it's out anyway just in case. Someone on the other forum suggested that I may have put the front sling stud back on too tightly, so that's been loosened off, too.

Petamocto
03-16-2014, 04:26 PM
I brought it in to Bass Pro today where I bought both the rifle and the scope, and had them review everything.

I will first of all say that Gordon there was amazing, and gave some of the best customer service I've ever had for any product, not just guns.

He said that while I hadn't done a terrible job mounting the scope myself, it was definitely not close to perfect. He brought it right down to the base, and measured everything to perfection from there, with everything being 100% straight and true, tightened to exactly the right torque.

He said that now that it's on properly, even a terrible shooter would have an easy tome getting 2-3" groups on it from 100, so if I keep getting scattered groups that the scope itself is likely toast. He really thinks it was the installation of the scope, though, and I left with a good vibe that it should be fine now.

The last thing he said was that he was practically certain it would have nothing to do with the barrel or gas tube. Even if I had driven the sling stud for the bipod right into the gas tube and dented it, it wouldn't affect the harmonics enough to scatter groups to what I'm seeing.

I'm back to the range in April, and hopefully I'll gave good news to report after that.

Thank you to everyone for offering your helpful suggestions.

Strewth
03-16-2014, 04:35 PM
Great to hear! Sounds like a +1 for Basspro as well.

I really hope (no offense?) that it was just the installation, and now your BAR shoots like she should, they're beautiful rifles.

Petamocto
03-16-2014, 04:44 PM
Great to hear! Sounds like a +1 for Basspro as well. I really hope (no offense?) that it was just the installation, and now your BAR shoots like she should, they're beautiful rifles.

Oh my goodness, good man, no offence taken whatsoever. There may be some things I can do fine with my hands, but I was wrong to assume that because I can do house renos and change my oil that I could also install a scope. Very stupid on my part. I almost felt embarrassed when he was working on it, thinking "I am sorry my craftsmanship did not live up to what this rifle or scope deserved, please forgive me for bringing shame on your profession".

Lesson learned, it's just too precise of a thing to do for a newb. Either you know what you're doing and have the tools to do it well, or it's not worth doing.

blacksmithden
03-16-2014, 04:54 PM
PLEASE, update us when you've had a chance to take it out for another run. I'm really curious about this one. Obviously I didn't have a chance to go over the rifle and the scope install job with my own eyes, but I have a feeling there's still something wonky in the scope. I've had no problems with any of my mounting jobs over the years, but I've had 2 scopes go south on me over the years. One was pretty obvious since it changed from a clear view to a point of light in the center of a black lens and you could hear the lens rattling around in there. The second one was something in the reticule adjustment broke loose, and the gun it was on went from shooting pretty good, to all over the map. I knew the mounting was all tight, so I changed out the scope and the rifle went right back to the way it was before. Anyway...best of luck. I know I'm happy as can be with my BAR Safari II. It's way up there on my never sell list. I'm sure you'll be happy with your short trak once you get it straightened out.

BrotherRockeye
03-16-2014, 06:43 PM
Oh my goodness, good man, no offence taken whatsoever. There may be some things I can do fine with my hands, but I was wrong to assume that because I can do house renos and change my oil that I could also install a scope. Very stupid on my part. I almost felt embarrassed when he was working on it, thinking "I am sorry my craftsmanship did not live up to what this rifle or scope deserved, please forgive me for bringing shame on your profession".

Lesson learned, it's just too precise of a thing to do for a newb. Either you know what you're doing and have the tools to do it well, or it's not worth doing.

I gave you more credit than that...sorry :p

zulu
03-16-2014, 07:28 PM
This stuff can happen to anyone. ive been shooti.g both military and civi for about 13 years and the other day i took my savage apart for cleaning and forgot to screw the stock in past finger tight (i got destracted)
Next day it took me forever to figure that out.