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iroczu
04-28-2014, 09:36 PM
Well I know this topic has been covered more times than a spray booth floor, but these are what I loaded with and without success, all once shot Remington umc brass, tumbled and case trimmed before reloading and strong n.e and I was facing south wind 30 km with gusts my guess upwards to 40km and all at 100 yards. Gun weatherby varmit .223 bolt action with varmit barrell and a bi pod and mounted with a vortex diamond back 4-12x40
My over all lengths varied and I don't know why. I measured every single one

Top 4 loads

27gr varget cci br4 52gr hornady bthp match oal:2.259 not crimped
http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s377/sbc350-83/IMAG0344_zps719ccfb4.jpg
26 gr varget cci br4 53 gr hornady vmax oal:2.256-2.260 crimped
http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s377/sbc350-83/IMAG0342_zpsbbbf73dd.jpg
26.5 varget cci 450 52gr hornady bthp match oal: 2.250-2.258 not crimped
http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s377/sbc350-83/IMAG0343_zps96659fcd.jpg
27 gr varget cci 450 52gr hornady bthp match oal:2.259 not crimped
http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s377/sbc350-83/IMAG0341_zps196ccfe4.jpg (http://s1048.photobucket.com/user/sbc350-83/media/IMAG0341_zps196ccfe4.jpg.html)

Now with wind my shots all things considered were ok with waving around and I didn't let barrell cool between shots did all with 2 sets of 4.
You will notice double hole touching, i'm going to reload these combos again and try again this weekend if the wind dies down, only had 1 calm day so far in last month and a bit when going shooting

Not sure how to upload pictures yet I'll toy with it tomorrow

iroczu
04-28-2014, 09:48 PM
k got it figured out

Rory McCanuck
04-28-2014, 11:05 PM
Light bullets, with the way it's been blowing around here lately, I'd say not bad!

For the differing lengths, just for giggles measure a handful of the bullets.
I've found with Hornady bullets quite often the overall length of the bullets vary.
If you pull the plug out of your seating die and place it over the tip of the bullet, then measure from the base of the bullet to the end of the plug, you might be suprised at how consistent they are. The seater plug will sit at the same spot of the ogive, not the tip.The nose lengths/profiles vary a bit, but it doesn't seem to effect their performance.

iroczu
04-29-2014, 06:21 AM
I never thought of that but I did check the length just in the bthp vs vmax and the vmax is a tad longer due to the insert but I didn't measure it just a side by side comparison I have a picture of it just not at home to upload it, but ya besides the wind I think I would have had a good group going on, I tested 3 different loads before these ones and they were bad lol started at 24GR AND worked up

BrotherRockeye
04-29-2014, 08:11 AM
http://www.gunownersofcanada.ca/showthread.php?1623-Tried-and-True-223-Recipes-Add-Yours!

Canuck
04-29-2014, 09:19 AM
Have you tried using a bullet collimator? RCBS makes one, they aren't expensive. It measures your COAL at the ogive. The one I have measures a number of basic callibres so it's very versatile. It is hard to get an exact measurement from tip to the cartridge base. This way is much more consistent. Just a thought.

Rory McCanuck
04-29-2014, 09:27 AM
That's basically what I've done, but on the tightwad-cheapskate model.
Take a seater plug from another die to slip over the bullet's tip.
I've recorded what plug and OAL works and go back to it.
Once I started measure the Cartridge OAL like this, and found that every set of dies I have seat consistently to +/- 0.001", I really stopped worrying so much about lengths.

iroczu
04-29-2014, 09:42 AM
http://www.gunownersofcanada.ca/showthread.php?1623-Tried-and-True-223-Recipes-Add-Yours!

Want to re test before saying it's definitely a good recipe

iroczu
04-29-2014, 09:44 AM
Have you tried using a bullet collimator? RCBS makes one, they aren't expensive. It measures your COAL at the ogive. The one I have measures a number of basic callibres so it's very versatile. It is hard to get an exact measurement from tip to the cartridge base. This way is much more consistent. Just a thought.

I hear you on options, just atm taking everything on baby steps to what I buy since budget is always in mind only other option I have to counter act the height of the plastic tip is to measure it and offset the swatting depth to that since it would be resting neutral in the lands anyways

Camo tung
04-29-2014, 01:11 PM
What is the twist on that barrel?

Canuck
04-29-2014, 01:21 PM
I re-read your post. I suggest shooting w/o a bipod. Ok in the field but not really stable for groups. Use a rifle rest with bags for the best results.

Rory McCanuck
04-29-2014, 01:52 PM
I hear you on options, just atm taking everything on baby steps to what I buy since budget is always in mind only other option I have to counter act the height of the plastic tip is to measure it and offset the swatting depth to that since it would be resting neutral in the lands anyways

I think you might be over-thinking it a bit.
So long as they cycle through the action, don't get jammed in the rifling so unfired bullets are pulled from the case, or aren't so deep seated as to drastically reduce case volume, you are good to go.
While your calipers are telling you each cartridges is a different length, to your rifle and its chamber, they're all the same length (so long as you haven't played with the seating depth adjustment).
Find a load you feel has some accuracy potential, then play with seating depth, 10, 20, 30 thou etc.

Camo tung
04-29-2014, 01:57 PM
That's basically what I've done, but on the tightwad-cheapskate model.
Take a seater plug from another die to slip over the bullet's tip.
I've recorded what plug and OAL works and go back to it.
Once I started measure the Cartridge OAL like this, and found that every set of dies I have seat consistently to +/- 0.001", I really stopped worrying so much about lengths.

I'm going to try this, makes a lot of sense. Thanks for the tip!

iroczu
04-29-2014, 02:09 PM
I re-read your post. I suggest shooting w/o a bipod. Ok in the field but not really stable for groups. Use a rifle rest with bags for the best results.
This rifle is only my target gun, I'm thinking about getting a lead sled so any error on that will merely be the round or gun and not me.

Camp tung- gun is a 1:12 twist so heavy grain bullets aren't an option though I might try pushing out 60ish gr and see

iroczu
04-29-2014, 05:33 PM
here's some neat pictures

my 223 on the right friend's savage 110a 308 on the left
http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s377/sbc350-83/IMAG0229_zps43c9b5b0.jpg (http://s1048.photobucket.com/user/sbc350-83/media/IMAG0229_zps43c9b5b0.jpg.html)

mini cannon aka 45-70 govt after math
http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s377/sbc350-83/IMAG0236_zps8067df39.jpg (http://s1048.photobucket.com/user/sbc350-83/media/IMAG0236_zps8067df39.jpg.html)
http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s377/sbc350-83/IMAG0238_zps144c3114.jpg (http://s1048.photobucket.com/user/sbc350-83/media/IMAG0238_zps144c3114.jpg.html)
http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s377/sbc350-83/IMAG0239_zpsde785026.jpg (http://s1048.photobucket.com/user/sbc350-83/media/IMAG0239_zpsde785026.jpg.html)




And back on topic, the difference between the hornady match (left) and hornady v max (right)
http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s377/sbc350-83/IMAG0334_zpsd375eace.jpg (http://s1048.photobucket.com/user/sbc350-83/media/IMAG0334_zpsd375eace.jpg.html)

iroczu
05-01-2014, 07:55 PM
So words of advice for you reloaders, I'm just reloading some more for this weekend if I can get out and man factory outta oal 2.260 max they claim, I checked where the bullet meets the land and it's 2.357 and so I seated to 2.342, something like that anyways I don't have the paper in front of me taking a break you know lol but ya seated .015 behind lands, measured out also the vmax ballistic tip difference and subtracted from the bthp match on the others I loaded to match the oal of 2.260 for my re test rounds so now they are not compressed loads more than the match grade bullets so I hope it works out

iroczu
05-03-2014, 09:33 PM
K I got benchmark today and reloading some more test rounds this time with benchmark I just can't load up 5 setups with the hornady match bullets and can't with 53 vmax I'm almost out, I'll try and squeeze some in but can't do a a base to max test that's where I'm short, but I am testing it with 60 gr v max started from 23-24.5 grains in .5 increments and going to try out hornady 55 gr fmj-bt

So ... Hornady 60 gr v max 23-24.5 in .5 increments
Hornady fmj bt 23-25 in .5 increments
And varget with different col's, measured lands and seated .015 before lands with 27-27.5 , I'll get more detailed with results tomorrow night

iroczu
05-05-2014, 08:23 PM
ok well this weekend was a complete flop, worst groupings... after looking at my rifle closey the pressure tabs are not applying pressure even as it shows on the barrel, i'm starting to think that is the main problem.

ok i can see my reloads being part of the problem due to some loads i could not find load data on so i'm sure they were on the hot side... maybe a little too hot because some of my cases had powder residue on them but that was partially due to because i did not tumble the brass after i deprimed/reprimed them so there was some lubricant left on them. I'll post some pictures tomorrow hopefully.

my question is atm i am trying to research this but is there a way to tell what area or parts of stock have to be modified by looking at how the rifle shot??

Rory McCanuck
05-05-2014, 11:30 PM
Looking in the Hornady book, it seems your loads should be alright, but they're up to max.

Soot on your cases is quite often from lower pressure loads.
Once pressure is high enough, the case seals tightly to the chamber walls, and gas doesn't leak back.
Give each round a twist in some steel wool and all the carbon will come off easily. Looks nice, too ;)

Give each round a swipe with a rag/paper towel to get case lube off. I'm not real picky about it, but I get most of it off at least.

Pressure tabs?

iroczu
05-08-2014, 11:35 PM
Hey Rory, the pressure tabs apply upward pressure on the barrel. My term is probably wrong for it but when you look at the stock the barrel is hugging one side more than the other and the wear marks on the barrell is more pronounced to one side as well meaning pressure isn't equal but I want to order a axiom stock and go free floating. After looking are targets I won't bother posting they ate pretty bad if you ask me.

So update this weekend reloaded the same load that gave me soot but seated bullet to 2.250 rather than to 2.313 to meet the lands with .015 clearance, and also using federal gm205m primers in that load and see if it was due to primer and or seating. Other than that ... These are new test loads

Sierra 52 gr hpbt match
24-26 gr benchmark
Federal gm205m
Oal 2.260-2.63 I think it was, I'm not in front of paper work

Sierra 52 gr hpbt match
25-27 gr varget
Cci br450 magnum primers
Oal 2.260-2.263

See how these 2 combos perform. I honestly not much how much different the cci br4 vs cci 450 magnum and federal gm205m all react with these primers, I know the magnums burn faster from what I understand and maybe I have them in the wrong combination for the powder so we will see what happens as also I'm whipping out old school tweaks to test the barrell pressure in the stock is but using Remington umc 55 gr fmj for that since I can't say how these reloads will react yet

BradenG
05-09-2014, 05:11 PM
I'm preparing to start reloading 223 for the ar that im building, so ive been collecting the 223 casings my friend has been shooting but most of them are the American eagle 223 for ar15s, the box says they have mil spec primers. does anyone have experience with these or know if you need to do anything extra to them ive heard the process to reload 556 is a little different from 223. any info would be greatly appreciated

Canuck
05-09-2014, 05:17 PM
If the primers are crimped into the case you will have to remove the crimp to seat new primers. You can tell if they are crimped because there will be a ring around the primer that is not seen in a commercial case. You need a special tool to remove the crimp. I would also recommend a small base die set if you are loading for the AR.

iroczu
05-09-2014, 05:21 PM
Ya I'm not sure myself besides the milspec primers are harder so there are no misfires when it's loading another shell from what I have read, and 5.56 casings some have the (I can't remember name off top of my head ) ring in the primer pocket, I have shot off a few and reloaded a few with that ring for my 223 and doesn't seem to act any differently besides sometimes primer can be a little tight , other than that the ar are seating sensitive also that i read due to clip fitment

Canuck
05-09-2014, 05:30 PM
Ya I'm not sure myself besides the milspec primers are harder so there are no misfires when it's loading another shell from what I have read, and 5.56 casings some have the (I can't remember name off top of my head ) ring in the primer pocket, I have shot off a few and reloaded a few with that ring for my 223 and doesn't seem to act any differently besides sometimes primer can be a little tight , other than that the ar are seating sensitive also that i read due to clip fitment

If you don't remove the primer crimp you run the danger of mashing your primer or not seating it deeply enough- which can cause serious issues. I would not ignore this!

speedloader
05-09-2014, 07:23 PM
I'm preparing to start reloading 223 for the ar that im building, so ive been collecting the 223 casings my friend has been shooting but most of them are the American eagle 223 for ar15s, the box says they have mil spec primers. does anyone have experience with these or know if you need to do anything extra to them ive heard the process to reload 556 is a little different from 223. any info would be greatly appreciated

if they are the 223 black box american eagle AR 15 they are regular primers fedral brass lk city bullets
I have reloaded lots of them the primers are normal and you reload them as normal with regular small rifle primers I use cci#41
as they are harder for slam fire protection
it does say mil spec primer on the boxes which means pretty much nothing

with 556, case brass is thicker case kneck is a bit shorter higher pressure is the end result
as long as you are chambered for 556 you are fine to shoot both 556 & 223
if you are only chambered for 223 shooting 556 rounds in that rifle is a serious safety hazard and should never be done

iroczu
05-11-2014, 09:31 AM
thankfully i only have a hand full of these ones, i know most of my brass are Remington. but i did reload a few without removing crimp though out of the few i have and only a couple were tight fitting and the other couple went in with a breeze. but ya when i tumble i sort out all the rem's and the others and reload them totally separate

iroczu
05-12-2014, 07:49 PM
well new results with chronograph this time! All 5 Round tests
http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb223/iroczu/IMAG0381.jpg (http://s209.photobucket.com/user/iroczu/media/IMAG0381.jpg.html)
http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb223/iroczu/IMAG0383.jpg (http://s209.photobucket.com/user/iroczu/media/IMAG0383.jpg.html)

target 1

top left was a retest
Description: 24.5 gr bench fed gm205m 53 gr v max oal 2.250 *** retest
Notes 1:
Notes 2:
Temp: N/A
BP: N/A
Shots
6 3090 FPS
5 3124 FPS
4 3150 FPS
3 ERROR 2
2 3125 FPS
1 3076 FPS
Average: 3113.00
StdDev: 29.72
Min: 3076
Max: 3150
Spread: 74
True MV: 3113.00
Shots/sec: 0.04

top right is start of new reloads (circled)

Description: varget 25 gr br450 sierra 52gr hpbt match oal 2.267-2.271
Notes 1:
Notes 2:
Temp: N/A
BP: N/A
Shots
5 2919 FPS
4 2947 FPS
3 2905 FPS
2 2882 FPS
1 2882 FPS
Average: 2907.00
StdDev: 27.38
Min: 2882
Max: 2947
Spread: 65
True MV: 2907.00
Shots/sec: 0.05

middle: Description: 25.5 varget br450 sierra 52 hpbt match
Notes 1:
Notes 2:
Temp: N/A
BP: N/A
Shots
5 3065 FPS
4 3061 FPS
3 3062 FPS
2 3059 FPS
1 3064 FPS
Average: 3062.20
StdDev: 2.39
Min: 3059
Max: 3065
Spread: 6
True MV: 3062.20
Shots/sec: 0.03

Bottom Left : Description: 26gr varget br 450 sierra 52 gr hpbt match
Notes 1:
Notes 2:
Temp: N/A
BP: N/A
Shots
5 3151 FPS
4 3112 FPS
3 3110 FPS
2 3110 FPS
1 3171 FPS
Average: 3130.80
StdDev: 28.47
Min: 3110
Max: 3171
Spread: 61
True MV: 3130.80
Shots/sec: 0.08

Bottom Right :
Description: 26.5gr varget br 450 sierra 52 gr hpbt match
Notes 1:
Notes 2:
Temp: N/A
BP: N/A
Shots
5 3256 FPS
4 3176 FPS
3 3241 FPS
2 3214 FPS
1 3247 FPS
Average: 3226.80
StdDev: 32.43
Min: 3176
Max: 3256
Spread: 80
True MV: 3226.80
Shots/sec: 0.05

TARGET #2

Top Left
Description: 27gr varget br 450 sierra 52 gr hpbt match
Notes 1:
Notes 2:
Temp: N/A
BP: N/A
Shots
5 3285 FPS
4 3293 FPS
3 3283 FPS
2 3260 FPS
1 3304 FPS
Average: 3285.00
StdDev: 16.23
Min: 3260
Max: 3304
Spread: 44
True MV: 3285.00
Shots/sec: 0.07

Top Right CIRCLED Holes

Description: 24 gr benchmark fed gm 205m sierra 52 gr match
Notes 1:
Notes 2:
Temp: N/A
BP: N/A
Shots
5 2996 FPS
4 3008 FPS
3 3005 FPS
2 3005 FPS
1 3060 FPS
Average: 3014.80
StdDev: 25.67
Min: 2996
Max: 3060
Spread: 64
True MV: 3014.80
Shots/sec: 0.10

Center :
Description: 24.5 benchmark fed gm205m 52 gr sierra hpbt match
Notes 1:
Notes 2:
Temp: N/A
BP: N/A
Shots
5 3088 FPS
4 3091 FPS
3 3063 FPS
2 3107 FPS
1 3126 FPS
Average: 3095.00
StdDev: 23.42
Min: 3063
Max: 3126
Spread: 63
True MV: 3095.00
Shots/sec: 0.08

Bottom Left :
Description: 25 benchmark fed gm205m 52 gr sierra hpbt match
Notes 1:
Notes 2:
Temp: N/A
BP: N/A
Shots
5 3189 FPS
4 3196 FPS
3 3200 FPS
2 3194 FPS
1 3201 FPS
Average: 3196.00
StdDev: 4.85
Min: 3189
Max: 3201
Spread: 12
True MV: 3196.00
Shots/sec: 0.06

Bottom Right :

Description: 25.5 benchmark fed gm205m 52 gr sierra hpbt match
Notes 1:
Notes 2:
Temp: N/A
BP: N/A
Shots
5 3260 FPS
4 3227 FPS
3 3253 FPS
2 3248 FPS
1 3297 FPS
Average: 3257.00
StdDev: 25.52
Min: 3227
Max: 3297
Spread: 70
True MV: 3257.00
Shots/sec: 0.10

TARGET #1 TOP RIGHT NOT CIRCLED :

Description: 26 benchmark fed gm205m 52 gr sierra hpbt match
Notes 1:
Notes 2:
Temp: N/A
BP: N/A
Shots
5 3333 FPS
4 3330 FPS
3 3326 FPS
2 3339 FPS
1 3319 FPS
Average: 3329.40
StdDev: 7.50
Min: 3319
Max: 3339
Spread: 20
True MV: 3329.40
Shots/sec: 0.12

iroczu
05-12-2014, 07:54 PM
I got the primer numbers wrong it is CCI 450 magnum primers on some and fed gm205m primers as well

Dmay
05-14-2014, 07:43 AM
I haven't followed all your load development, so can't contribute many concrete suggestions.
However, if you do indeed have sideways pressure from the stock on the barrel, I would think about dealing with that before a bunch of effort on distance-to-lands.
And stick with one brand, preferably batch, of brass for testing.

cr5
05-21-2014, 04:37 AM
I suggest you pick one bullet and one powder and one primer and then using those build 5 rounds of a lower powder charge from your book then 5 more rounds 0.2gr higher powder charge then 0.2gr more and on and on till you get close to max book charge.
0.5gr is too large a jump on a cartridge with such a small case capacity and changing bullets and any other factors will never get you anything but a mess in your reloading log book.
Try one bullet/powder combination until you figure that it won't work then change one variable and try again. I usually try 2-3 different powders before I give up on a bullet.
Once you find the best load then try adjusting your seating depth to see if you can gain any more accuracy then stick with what works best.
After you do that then move on to a different weight or purpose bullet and start over.

Waterloomike
05-21-2014, 05:29 AM
Dumb rookie question here. I apologise in advance.

Are you doing full length resizing?

Neck resizing?

Is it ok to reload .223 for semis?

iroczu
05-21-2014, 05:02 PM
I suggest you pick one bullet and one powder and one primer and then using those build 5 rounds of a lower powder charge from your book then 5 more rounds 0.2gr higher powder charge then 0.2gr more and on and on till you get close to max book charge.
0.5gr is too large a jump on a cartridge with such a small case capacity and changing bullets and any other factors will never get you anything but a mess in your reloading log book.
Try one bullet/powder combination until you figure that it won't work then change one variable and try again. I usually try 2-3 different powders before I give up on a bullet.
Once you find the best load then try adjusting your seating depth to see if you can gain any more accuracy then stick with what works best.
After you do that then move on to a different weight or purpose bullet and start over.

I have done in .3 increments and no difference in my rifle tbh, and ya I have tried 3 different primers, 4 different bullets and 2 different powders, and tried every combination from recommended minimum to max loads and even over max on
Benchmark and with all 3 primers in all 4 different bullets, but I'm finding my rifle does not like hornady bullets so far, next weekend maybe pick up some lighter ones and to try, other than that its only taken well as to sierra 53 gr match. Best group was overall .6 inch from furterest measurement hole to hole and held the other 4 of 5 projectile's touching one another, I get out almost every weekend so trying all these combos I posted and others I have not doesn't take long to test and document

iroczu
05-21-2014, 05:07 PM
Dumb rookie question here. I apologise in advance.

Are you doing full length resizing?

Neck resizing?

Is it ok to reload .223 for semis?

Well considering from cabelas only bulk ammo sold here was Remington's RMC and federal eagle when they have or had it, I can't seem to find it now that spring came but its both .223 rem cases I'm sure it is no problem to run through a semi auto as I'm sure a lot of people do not go buy or know about bulk crates of ammo which only leaves one option. Plus 5.56 can shoot .223 but not recommended the other way around unless stated in the owners manual.
For re sizing my dies resize the neck and cases yes, and from what I read case trim every 3rd or so time of reloading but as I'm definitely a rookie at this myself I'm sure someone with more knowledge will chime in

Rory McCanuck
05-21-2014, 05:42 PM
from what I read case trim every 3rd or so time of reloading but as I'm definitely a rookie at this myself I'm sure someone with more knowledge will chime in
Don't trim them any more than needed. Let them get to the "Max Length". I've always found that a couple cases out of a batch will grow a bit more than the rest, and when they get to max, I trim the whole batch.
After going through a few cycles, you'll get an idea how much growth occurs with each batch of brass depending on load, rifle etc.