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07-07-2014, 05:55 PM
http://youtu.be/J3XGfxvc36s

Typical Liberal - Indians and Land Rights

Gene Nichol History

The often-controversial president of the College of William & Mary resigned Tuesday, amid outrage for allowing a pornographic show to be performed on campus.

Gene Nichol announced his resignation, effective immediately, after learning that the school's board had decided not to renew his contract due in July. Nichols had often came under intense criticism for making decisions that some claimed suppressed Christian expression.

Last week, Nichol outraged several students for allowing a sex show on campus featuring porn actors, strippers and other sex workers. He said Tuesday that he would have violated the First Amendment had he banned the show from the student-governed speaker series.
http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/us/2008/February/William--Mary-Pres-Resigns-After-Scandals-/

Indian Land Rights

Objections raised by B.C. aboriginals to proposed logging in their traditional hunting grounds have resulted three decades later in the clearest and farthest-reaching decision on Indian land claims and title, with the Supreme Court of Canada upholding on Thursday a lower court ruling that gives First Nations effective control over vast tracts of territory outside their reserves.

While the ruling deals specifically with litigation over 1,700 square kilometres in B.C.'s central interior, for centuries home to six Tsilhqot'in Nation bands with a common history and culture, it will influence and likely instigate more land-based claims across Canada.
Thursday's decision establishes conditions aboriginal groups must meet to press collective rights on territories outside their settlements or formal treaty boundaries.
http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/06/26/supreme-court-b-c-land-claim-ruling-has-staggering-implications-for-canadian-energy-projects/

Christie supports larger Capacity Magazines

On July 2nd, Christie vetoed A2006, a bill that would have limited firearm magazine capacities to 10 rounds in New Jersey.



Christie criticized the bill as a do-nothing approach to curbing gun violence that unnecessarily burdens gun owners. Christie stated,



"This [bill] is the very embodiment of reform in name only. It simply defies common sense to believe that imposing a new and entirely arbitrary number of bullets that can be loaded into a firearm will somehow eradicate, or even reduce, future instances of mass violence."

http://www.tpnn.com/2014/07/04/chris-christie-vetoes-high-capacity-magazine-ban/

Sgt Shultz
07-16-2014, 08:12 PM
since when in the Indians history did they own "mother earth". all I have ever heard of is that they and lived off her.

Strewth
07-17-2014, 11:27 AM
since when in the Indians history did they own "mother earth". all I have ever heard of is that they and lived off her.

I honestly feel for them as a group, they have quite the mental schism going. What kind of culture are they trying to preserve? Back to the land? Modern, with traditional trappings? Somewhere in between? I don't think the First Nations know themselves what they're trying to do, anymore.
The faster we can cut them off the free money train the better. Free things are never respected, and generational free things seem to lead to crazy entitlement issues.
There's a band in Northern BC (The Nisga'a, remember them?) that's finally going to give the members the ability to own property, instead of all of it being held by "the band", which is to say the chiefs.... And why would you respect the house you're in if all you do is pay cheap rent for it? It's very difficult to credit people with being "Stewards of the Land" when they can't seem to maintain a 1/4 acre to Western standards....but nomads never had to, they moved on with the herds or the seasons. Is the nomadic culture what keeps reserves from having huge communal vegetable gardens? That's something I'd do?

Kal
07-17-2014, 12:44 PM
The idea that First Nations members receive "free money" is a common misconception. The First Nations don't receive anything for free. Anything they receive from the government is the result of treaties or agreements that allows the Crown to use the land in co-operation with them. The First Nations had a legal claim of sovereignty that existed long before Europeans set foot on North American soil.

Strewth
07-17-2014, 01:44 PM
The idea that First Nations members receive "free money" is a common misconception. The First Nations don't receive anything for free.

The First Nations I work with every day do, with no land use by the government? Maybe the roads and dike system? They also receive a major tax break on many goods and services, which is also a subsidy?

The legal claim of sovereignty was ceded to Europeans? The land was claimed by the British. This is all very nasty of course; what exactly is legal? We still deal with residuals of this the world over. Is conquest "legal"? How far back in time do we go? What exactly are land rights?
Regardless, I think we've proven that the reserve system doesn't work. Time to try something else that doesn't trap entire generations of people in poverty. The First Nations have an amazing culture, and it's being slowly strangled through time, a terrible way to go. I see many new immigrants keeping their culture alive with no help from the tax payer, and I think this is the only way to actually keep traditions alive instead of merely propped up.

Kal
07-17-2014, 08:33 PM
The First Nations I work with every day do, with no land use by the government? Maybe the roads and dike system? They also receive a major tax break on many goods and services, which is also a subsidy?

The legal claim of sovereignty was ceded to Europeans? The land was claimed by the British. This is all very nasty of course; what exactly is legal? We still deal with residuals of this the world over. Is conquest "legal"? How far back in time do we go? What exactly are land rights?
Regardless, I think we've proven that the reserve system doesn't work. Time to try something else that doesn't trap entire generations of people in poverty. The First Nations have an amazing culture, and it's being slowly strangled through time, a terrible way to go. I see many new immigrants keeping their culture alive with no help from the tax payer, and I think this is the only way to actually keep traditions alive instead of merely propped up.

I did not say sovereignty was ceded to Europeans, rather that FN groups had a sovereignty claim long before any Europeans made it to N.A. I understand the treaties were originally made with the British. Regardless of how the land is or is not being used, the treaties and what is legally promised therein does not change.

As for cutting off the money, that would largely be illegal and if recent court rulings are any evidence, the Government would be taken to the cleaners. Further, simply cutting off the money doesn't solve the systemic cultural problems within the First Nations. Cutting off the money, even if it could be legally (and ethically) done only further exacerbates the problems.

The way to solve many of issues facing the First Nations is for these groups to heal, grow and develop their skills for living in the modern world. The problem isn't that the FN doesn't respect the money or will not stand on their own because they receive money, it is because generations of FN individuals that were horrifically treated by the government. Due to this treatment, many of these individuals lacked the ability to function healthily and successfully in our society. The systemic problems faced by the FN will only cease once the FN has healed and grown from its history. That is something that cannot be rushed nor be corrected with the strike of a pen.

Haywire1
07-17-2014, 10:06 PM
They arent some primitive stone age tribe recently discovered. they have exactly the same opportunities, if not more opportunities that anyone else to better themselves and "live in the modern world". So their ancestors got hosed on treaties. So their culture was treated bad by the govt. They are far from the only group to deal with that. Want examples using the Brits as bad guys? Ireland and Scotland, years of oppressive rule, and assaults on culture as well as horrific treatment. Australia, dumping ground for convicts of all sorts ( most of which were indegent, ie a cop asked how much money they had on them, if the answer was none, bingo, indigent), China,(used opium there), India, etc etc ad nauseam.

As I said earlier, there are plenty of reserves who work hard, own businesses (not casinos either), and have lower crime rates than other places. There are dives that look more suited to third world countries. I know a few from those reserves who had the same chamces as everyone else on the res, one is a dr, a couple are lawyers, 3 own businesses(one a multimillion dollar outfit).

Then factor in the not having to pay taxes, the hunting and fishing freedoms, band money, etc, coupled with the seeming ability to shut down everything from highways to raillines and everything in between with complete impunity ( because even with court orders the cops have refused to enforce the courts orders) and is it any wonder why there is a growing number of Canadians who are tired of this crap?

They were not first nations. They were a bunch of primitive tribes of hunter gatherers (mainly) who fought and killed, kidnapped, massacred, tortured etc each other a lot of times on sight. They didnt own the land, they wandered across it and lived in a certain area until pushed out by a stronger tribe, then they in turn pushed a weaker tribe out of somewhere else. And they got treated a lot better here than they did in the U.S.

Sorry for the rather verbose post, but I get sick and tired about hearing how I should feel sorry for someone because their great great grandpa got hosed in a land deal, or hearing about how they need time to get better, I owe them etc. Suck it up, get a job, go to school and put an effort into making something of yourself rather than regurgitating the same old tired liberal crap about the poor downtrodden ancestors you have.

Camo tung
07-17-2014, 10:18 PM
Sorry for the rather verbose post, but I get sick and tired about hearing how I should feel sorry for someone because their great great grandpa got hosed in a land deal, or hearing about how they need time to get better, I owe them etc. Suck it up, get a job, go to school and put an effort into making something of yourself rather than regurgitating the same old tired liberal crap about the poor downtrodden ancestors you have.

But to be fair, I believe it was Jesus that told them "don't do anything until I get back".
And here we sit. (flame suit on!!) :pot:

Kal
07-17-2014, 11:28 PM
They arent some primitive stone age tribe recently discovered. they have exactly the same opportunities, if not more opportunities that anyone else to better themselves and "live in the modern world". So their ancestors got hosed on treaties. So their culture was treated bad by the govt. They are far from the only group to deal with that. Want examples using the Brits as bad guys? Ireland and Scotland, years of oppressive rule, and assaults on culture as well as horrific treatment. Australia, dumping ground for convicts of all sorts ( most of which were indegent, ie a cop asked how much money they had on them, if the answer was none, bingo, indigent), China,(used opium there), India, etc etc ad nauseam.

As I said earlier, there are plenty of reserves who work hard, own businesses (not casinos either), and have lower crime rates than other places. There are dives that look more suited to third world countries. I know a few from those reserves who had the same chamces as everyone else on the res, one is a dr, a couple are lawyers, 3 own businesses(one a multimillion dollar outfit).

Then factor in the not having to pay taxes, the hunting and fishing freedoms, band money, etc, coupled with the seeming ability to shut down everything from highways to raillines and everything in between with complete impunity ( because even with court orders the cops have refused to enforce the courts orders) and is it any wonder why there is a growing number of Canadians who are tired of this crap?

They were not first nations. They were a bunch of primitive tribes of hunter gatherers (mainly) who fought and killed, kidnapped, massacred, tortured etc each other a lot of times on sight. They didnt own the land, they wandered across it and lived in a certain area until pushed out by a stronger tribe, then they in turn pushed a weaker tribe out of somewhere else. And they got treated a lot better here than they did in the U.S.

Sorry for the rather verbose post, but I get sick and tired about hearing how I should feel sorry for someone because their great great grandpa got hosed in a land deal, or hearing about how they need time to get better, I owe them etc. Suck it up, get a job, go to school and put an effort into making something of yourself rather than regurgitating the same old tired liberal crap about the poor downtrodden ancestors you have.

All of those cultures you named that were treated badly are still fighting to this day for what has occured in the past. However, when analyzing the respective situations we see those situations are unlike what had happened to the First Nations. Many of those horrifiically treated cultures were able to rebound quicker as they had a stronger base to fall back upon. In the case of Canada's aboriginals their culture was largely destroyed. That coupled with the mental, emotional, physical and sexual abuses these people suffered it is clear to understand why generations of these people were slow to heal and grow. Anyone with the slightest amount of sociological education understands that recovering from such a history simply doesn't occur within a single generation. Further, you are assuming that many of these people possessed the faculties to "go out and get a job, etc" just as easily as someone with a healthy mental and emotional disposition. That is simply not the case. Decades of sociological, psychological, anthropological, etc evidence support this.

Not to insult you, but there is a clear disconnect between what you expect of these people and what the evidence has shown us.

I am not telling you to feel sorry for anyone, but it is incredibly difficult to deny what we have learned regarding the sociological development of people.

Frankly, I am too sick and tired of having to explain the realities of the situation due to the ignorance of others. As for the "growing number of Canadian growing tired of this crap," despite what Sun News is hoping their viewers buy into, the number of Canadian who understand the atrocities and their effects on the First Nations are the ones who are growing in number.

Swampdonkey
07-18-2014, 04:46 AM
since when in the Indians history did they own "mother earth". all I have ever heard of is that they and lived off her.

That's their understanding of ownership. Responsibility and duty without bribes and threats are European ideas.

Facepalm
07-18-2014, 07:29 AM
The idea that First Nations members receive "free money" is a common misconception. The First Nations don't receive anything for free. Anything they receive from the government is the result of treaties or agreements that allows the Crown to use the land in co-operation with them. The First Nations had a legal claim of sovereignty that existed long before Europeans set foot on North American soil.

That is a misconception that natives were here before Europeans, but when I did my degree in Canadian history, I found and reproved that Europeans were in fact part of the FN. Something echoed by a Ojibwa Shaman, and was told it was the joke of the FN as most knew this. We keep bowing down to these people, but in reality I don't believe there is many 4x4 natives alive. Canadian Censes in 1995 showed only 26 and all but 2 were over the age of 65.

My family came in 1753, before the natives came to Southern Ontario, and they took land that belonged to us. Iperwash was bought and deeded to my great great great great Grandpappy in 1816 for the sum of $2500. Now its theirs again. Regardless my point is my family has been here before some and most natives came to "Canada" But these peoples are usurping my rights.

The definition of a Metis is non existent by rule of law. Maybe we are all Metis and should claim Metis rights?

Foxer
07-18-2014, 08:01 AM
The problem isn't that the FN doesn't respect the money or will not stand on their own because they receive money, it is because generations of FN individuals that were horrifically treated by the government. Due to this treatment, many of these individuals lacked the ability to function healthily and successfully in our society. The systemic problems faced by the FN will only cease once the FN has healed and grown from its history. That is something that cannot be rushed nor be corrected with the strike of a pen.

Sorry, but that holds no water at all.

As was mentioned, there are plenty of cultures who were horribly treated by gov'ts or the like who picked up their socks and made something of themselves.

I`m in agreement that simply cutting off funding would not solve the problems. But - the reason people see that as a solution is because they legitimately recognize that the First nations are taking NO responsibility for themselves or their situation, and the reaction is simply one of Well - if they have to stand on their own with no help perhaps they`ll learn to be responsible for themselves. It`s a natural reaction, even tho it`s probably not the solution.

And thus we get to the real problem. First nations will never `heal` or `grow`until the day that they accept that they (and ONLY they) are responsible for where they are right now. I don`t refer to `blame`in the sense of t`s your fault you`re here`, I mean responsibility in the sense of `whatever decisions or actions you take today are YOUR choice, NOT because of something that happened to your parents or grandparents or the like`.

The solution to first nations problems is for First nations to stand up and say It really doesn`t matter what happened in the past, we`re here now and we`re going to choose to be good people. We will work hard to build something, we will learn to respect the rights of others and expect the same in return, and we will be responsible for what we have and what we build.

Instead you get the `culture of the victim`. Oh, I can`t solve my problems, my cultural past is too terrible`. Or `d like to be responsible and build my own future, but I have this sharp pain in my childhood memories.

Get the hell over it and grow up. You want to argue that there were serious wrongs in the past - you got it. You want to suggest that moving forward it`s going to take a little help from the rest of Canada to get back on their feet and build their lives, I`m in. But - that`s not what happens is it. Look at Theresa Spence`s little band - gets money for housing, wastes it and the houses are trashed a short time later, demands more money, freaks out when the gov`t DARES ask `what happened to the last money we gave you`

And first nations have also got to learn to keep their word and have SOME sense of actual honour and self respect. THey make deals, then if they don`t like them they just ignore them or protest. Again - spence`s band is a classic example with the local mines. They DEMAND that people respect the courts when they rule in their favour (and rightly so) but DO NOT respect the courts or the rights of others one ounce when they lose.

And there`s no excuse at all for the terrorist activities we saw as oka, caledonia, or in the maritimes.


Frankly, I am too sick and tired of having to explain the realities of the situation due to the ignorance of others.

Translation - i`m sick of everybody not instantly feeling like they owe us something because they don`t see the first nations as powerless victims

Yeah, sorry about that.

The fact is people do have sympathy. They recognize that the first nations were treated poorly (atrocities is probably a strong word, but there is no doubt terrible things happened). Most of what happened was either entirely unintentional or the result of individual criminals taking advantage of a situation, but people recognize that it did set the first nations back and that means they may need help now moving forward.

But very few have tolerance for this whole `m a victim, you have to pander to me because i don`t feel responsible for my own life` routine and its starting to wear on people`s nerves.

The pendulum always swings - the natives were treated badly in the past, now they seem to want to treat people badly, and guess what .. sooner or later if that keeps up it`ll go back the other way and natives will lose everything.

Time to be real men and women and sit down and actually work some crap out and take responsibility for their lives. And stop looking for the gov`t to pay for everything and build your own damn communities. Canadians will support that and help and contribute. And we can all be happy.

Kal
07-18-2014, 08:37 AM
Well, I have to argue that it does hold water. Taking into account someone's mental, emotional, etc state is absolutely crucial when determining whether or not that person can live a healthy, successful life. My point is, there were generations of individuals that greatly suffered and they cannot be expected to perform in the same manner as a well adjusted person. Everything we understand regarding sociology supports this. Further, my point is about explaining why the First Nation is in the situation they are in.

In regards to the belief that the FN should heal, grow and move on from this history is a point I agree with you on. However, it is a process and although many people may not agree with the way it manifests itself, we can't rigidly expect that the process follows a guideline in how we think it should follow.

I agree the process is seemingly long, but many people think these atrocities happened "a long time ago" when in actuality these abuses were still occuring a couple of decades ago. For someone who only knows abuse and the cycle of abuse it is obviously an incredibly difficult cycle to break and heal from. However, I believe that because the First Nation is now so much vocal in Canadian politics (for better or for worse), that is a sign that growth is occuring, although I am sure we all can agree it would be nice to occur at a much quicker pace.

In regards to some First Natins groups acting and developing responsibly and others not, I would again agree with you. It time hopefully, the majority will be making smart, responsible decisions for their respective groups. However until then, we cannot force the development, growth, etc of the First Nation to fit what another's standards may be in regards to how they should develop and how fast it should occur. An example; we have an individual that for years suffered some type of abuse that irreparably affected them and their behaviour - they simply cannot heal and behave in a manner like that of a well balanced individual simply because someone told them that they have to start acting more responsibly now.

I understand the frustration many Canadian feel when they see how some First Nations groups are operating, however, they have to remember that a few are not representative of the whole and that there are many FN groups that are growing and developing in a healthy and positive manner. In time, it is all of our hopes that they can operate successfully and responsibly. While it many not be the answer some people want, that is the reality of the situation.

Strewth
07-18-2014, 09:10 AM
Well, I have to argue that it does hold water. Taking into account someone's mental, emotional, etc state is absolutely crucial when determining whether or not that person can live a healthy, successful life. My point is, there were generations of individuals that greatly suffered and they cannot be expected to perform in the same manner as a well adjusted person. Everything we understand regarding sociology supports this.

Should this not apply to all the people in Canada then? Many families have generational issues.

Kal
07-18-2014, 11:33 AM
Translation - i`m sick of everybody not instantly feeling like they owe us something because they don`t see the first nations as powerless victims

Yeah, sorry about that.

.

I just saw this now. That isn't it at all, actually. I don't want people to view the FN as powerless victims, nor do I want people to feel like the owe them something that they don't.

I believe I have been clear in stating my points as to why the FN has had difficulty adjusting to society. My points are, if you read over them again, that the compensation the FN receives from the Government isn't "free money" and that generations of abuse and atrocities have left generations of FN people without the same ability to attain a healthy and successful life as easily as many non First Nations people.

Kal
07-18-2014, 11:44 AM
Should this not apply to all the people in Canada then? Many families have generational issues.

Absolutely it should and it does. There are multiple government programs that help these types of individuals so that they too can have a similar chance of attaining success as those who havent suffered as they have.

Why do the First Nations receive in some instances government programs that are specifically targeted for them - because the government was largely at fault for the current situation faced by the FN.

While yes, there are many Canadian who face generational histories of abuse, government was not the party at fault for the abuses they have faced. Arguably, the government has more of a responsibility to the FN because they were the ones responsible for the actions committed against the FN.

Strewth
07-18-2014, 11:58 AM
Absolutely it should and it does. There are multiple government programs that help these types of individuals so that they too can have a similar chance of attaining success as those who havent suffered as they have.

Why do the First Nations receive in some instances government programs that are specifically targeted for them - because the government was largely at fault for the current situation faced by the FN.

While yes, there are many Canadian who face generational histories of abuse, government was not the party at fault for the abuses they have faced. Arguably, the government has more of a responsibility to the FN because they were the ones responsible for the actions committed against the FN.

So you feel the system of payments are fair then? And that it's the current elected official's fault?

Aside from that, personally I would wonder how much blame can be laid on others for any wrongdoing, and for how long.

Example: If I grow up with no dad because the government raised business taxes, the factory shut down and he lit out, at what point in my life do I take responsibilities for my own actions? Would it be socially and morally correct for me to live on welfare in subsidized housing for my entire life, telling my children (Yay, Child benefits!) how terrible the government is for getting the factory closed down? Where would you see this example ending?

Tylerinthetub
07-18-2014, 01:36 PM
the number of Canadian who understand the atrocities and their effects on the First Nations are the ones who are growing in number.

If anything I think people are getting more disgusted with what they see as a two tiered system of citizenship. And as immigration rates go up, I expect it to get more lopsided. Although I admit I can only base this personal conversations I have had.

Im still of the opinion of just buying them out and being done with it. Convert the reserves into municipalities, write them all a big fat cheque and get rid of this special snowflake garbage.

Kal
07-18-2014, 02:41 PM
So you feel the system of payments are fair then? And that it's the current elected official's fault?

Aside from that, personally I would wonder how much blame can be laid on others for any wrongdoing, and for how long.

Example: If I grow up with no dad because the government raised business taxes, the factory shut down and he lit out, at what point in my life do I take responsibilities for my own actions? Would it be socially and morally correct for me to live on welfare in subsidized housing for my entire life, telling my children (Yay, Child benefits!) how terrible the government is for getting the factory closed down? Where would you see this example ending?

I don't know what you mean by "system of payments." At the risk of assuming anything, I take it to mean the compensation in which the First Nations receive from the government. If that is what you are asking, I would say I am content with whatever compensation the First Nations are legally entitled per their respective treaties and agreements. One also has to understand, not all treaties and agreements are the same, some agreements promise different things compared to other treaties. I am also content with the First Nations receiving any compensation from the agreements they make with the government (provincially and federally) and other business entities for the use of their ancestral lands.

I don't believe the current elected officials are at fault for what has previously occurred with the First Nations. I lay blame with any previous governments that had a hand in the atrocities committed against the First Nations. As for how long, well, I can blame them for the rest of my life for their actions and the effects they had on the First Nations. However, that does not mean I am "living in the past." I blame Hitler (amongst other reasons) for the rise of the Nazi party and the subsequent slaughter of millions of Jews. That is simply historical fact. I take it to mean how much longer can the First Nations use this as a reason for the slow rate of healing, growth and development (not in all First Nations groups)? I believe the First Nations themselves realize it is time to move on from this chapter of their history. I fully expect to see the First Nations move on from this within my lifetime (I am not that old, btw). The fact is that many FN groups are healing, moving on, growing and developing. However, while the First Nations will eventually move past this chapter of their history, I believe it will remain a part of the cultural history of both the First Nations and of Canada.

As for your example, I believe what has occurred to the First Nations is far more egregious that your example (I suspect you would agree). However, you pose an important questions, how long and for how much will the government will be responsible for the state of affairs if the First Nations? Well, if for several hundred years you, your family and your entire society suffered abuses (sexual, emotional, mental, spiritual, physical) and a literal destruction of your culture, the kidnapping of your children and a genocide (under UN definition) to your people and it only stopped within the last several decades; understanding those deep-seated effects, how long do you think the government should be responsible?

Foxer
07-18-2014, 04:14 PM
Well, I have to argue that it does hold water. Taking into account someone's mental, emotional, etc state is absolutely crucial when determining whether or not that person can live a healthy, successful life. My point is, there were generations of individuals that greatly suffered and they cannot be expected to perform in the same manner as a well adjusted person.

Sorry but that's just not true. While it may mean they struggle a little more (a VERY LITTLE MORE) with their decision making or the like it's still all about making decisions. Anything else is excusing bad behavior and no good comes from it.

And "generations" means nothing. The people alive today only have their experiences, and they make their own choices. Whether one generation or 100 or 100000000 before them had tough times it really makes very little difference. Sure - their parent's experience will have a fairly direct impact on their upbringing but really that's about it.

So we DO expect them to perform. That's a choice on their part. If they need a little help - no problem, If they want a few 'closure' moments like recognition of the harm done in the past, absolutely. But - you CHOOSE how you behave. And you can't blame your 'ancestors' for it. Not if you want respect either from your own self or others.

Sgt Shultz
07-18-2014, 04:21 PM
That's their understanding of ownership. Responsibility and duty without bribes and threats are European ideas.

responsibility and duty to charge rent,accept tax payers money and get as much free stuff as possible

Foxer
07-18-2014, 04:26 PM
I just saw this now. That isn't it at all, actually. I don't want people to view the FN as powerless victims, nor do I want people to feel like the owe them something that they don't.

Well their actions and their statements kind of demand that's how they'll be seen. And frankly - i have serious doubts about your feelings (whether you realize them or not). I'm quite sure you don't want people to feel they owe something they don't - you want them to feel they owe something because in your mind they should owe it. But that' doesn't mean they do.

The victim thing tho.... Gotta call you on that bud. Your statements have been crystal clear - "First Nations cannot be expected to act like normal people due to their victimization". You've said that or variations many times now. So you DO seem to want others to view the First Nations as powerless to choose their behaviour and apperently some sort of 'genetic' victim due to their ancestors. where in they are unable to be anything else.

THat is some serious loser-talk. They are responsible for their choices today. If they need a little help, great, but people CHOOSE who they are as a person. OR a culture. But of course - if they own it they'll have to own their own failings as well, and maybe that scares them a little.


I believe I have been clear in stating my points as to why the FN has had difficulty adjusting to society. My points are, if you read over them again, that the compensation the FN receives from the Government isn't "free money" and that generations of abuse and atrocities have left generations of FN people without the same ability to attain a healthy and successful life as easily as many non First Nations people.

Oh yeah. You've been clear. First Nations can't behave like normal adults. They're victims. They deserve a handout as a result. They can't earn themselves and it's someone else's fault so they shouldn't have to try.

All that kind of language amounts to is excuses to fail, excuses for someone else to pay the bills, excuses why they don't have to try.

It's unacceptable.

Kal
07-18-2014, 07:16 PM
Sorry but that's just not true. While it may mean they struggle a little more (a VERY LITTLE MORE) with their decision making or the like it's still all about making decisions. Anything else is excusing bad behavior and no good comes from it.

And "generations" means nothing. The people alive today only have their experiences, and they make their own choices. Whether one generation or 100 or 100000000 before them had tough times it really makes very little difference. Sure - their parent's experience will have a fairly direct impact on their upbringing but really that's about it.

So we DO expect them to perform. That's a choice on their part. If they need a little help - no problem, If they want a few 'closure' moments like recognition of the harm done in the past, absolutely. But - you CHOOSE how you behave. And you can't blame your 'ancestors' for it. Not if you want respect either from your own self or others.

I respect that you are entitled to your opinion. However, everything we know about human sociology and psychology says otherwise.

Kal
07-18-2014, 07:26 PM
Well their actions and their statements kind of demand that's how they'll be seen. And frankly - i have serious doubts about your feelings (whether you realize them or not). I'm quite sure you don't want people to feel they owe something they don't - you want them to feel they owe something because in your mind they should owe it. But that' doesn't mean they do.

The victim thing tho.... Gotta call you on that bud. Your statements have been crystal clear - "First Nations cannot be expected to act like normal people due to their victimization". You've said that or variations many times now. So you DO seem to want others to view the First Nations as powerless to choose their behaviour and apperently some sort of 'genetic' victim due to their ancestors. where in they are unable to be anything else.

THat is some serious loser-talk. They are responsible for their choices today. If they need a little help, great, but people CHOOSE who they are as a person. OR a culture. But of course - if they own it they'll have to own their own failings as well, and maybe that scares them a little.



Oh yeah. You've been clear. First Nations can't behave like normal adults. They're victims. They deserve a handout as a result. They can't earn themselves and it's someone else's fault so they shouldn't have to try.

All that kind of language amounts to is excuses to fail, excuses for someone else to pay the bills, excuses why they don't have to try.

It's unacceptable.

I see you have also chosen to ignore everything I have said about a few First Nations not being representative of the whole, nor what I said regarding the First Nations moving past their history.

I'm going to lay it bluntly. The First Nations will continue to receive what is legally entitled to them regarding their treaties and agreements with the government. That isn't going to change. The First Nations will continue to grow and develop no matter what your feelings towards them are. The new economic reality is that government and industry are going to be required to negotiate with First Nations groups to develop many future natural resources (at great financial benefit to the FN).

You may or may not like it, but that is where the future is heading. As for the other points, I guess we will need to agree to disagree.

Foxer
07-18-2014, 08:05 PM
I respect that you are entitled to your opinion. However, everything we know about human sociology and psychology says otherwise.

I would propose then that 'everything' you know has some room for additional knowledge.

I understand that there are entire industries built up around the culture of victimization. I get that there's a lot of energy spent on justifying that. I also understand that there's quite a body of work that demonstrates that the first step to any kind of recovery is accepting responsibility. And any attempt at 'healing' that doesn't involve that is doomed to fail.

Foxer
07-18-2014, 08:15 PM
I'm going to lay it bluntly. The First Nations will continue to receive what is legally entitled to them regarding their treaties and agreements with the government. That isn't going to change. The First Nations will continue to grow and develop no matter what your feelings towards them are. The new economic reality is that government and industry are going to be required to negotiate with First Nations groups to develop many future natural resources (at great financial benefit to the FN).


Well i'll do you the courtesy of laying it out bluntly back.

It's one thing to receive what's yours. It's something else to have a one way relationship where you take what's yours and then take what is someone else's. The first nations have moved awfully close to the second, not because of the court victory or the like but because of other behavior where if they DON'T like what the courts say they become terrorists and criminals and 'protest' to demand what ISN'T theirs but they think should be.

Here's how that works. After a while people decide they've had enough of that. And the supreme courts won't always be made up of who they are today. And suddenly nobody wants to do business with the first nations, and suddenly nobody is interested in whether or not they have clean water or homes, and suddenly people start thinking of first nations in a very bad light, as they used to many years ago.

And suddenly, all that 'benefit' you were mentioning is gone. And one of two things happens - the first nations become third world nations, OR they keep pushing and demanding till someone decides to play 'cowboys and indians', and there's real violence. Or both.

The first thing they do is kick hunters and fishermen who've likely hunted and fished in that area for generations out? In july, when it's too late to put in for a draw anywhere else or after they've made plans? They're not the gov't - it would have at least been appropriate to say 'if we don't come to an arrangement by next spring then we'll do that", but no - their first thought was to hurt people. That was the most important thing to them - lets hurt people.

Well - that attitude goes only so far before people start looking for ways to hurt back and you know what? If enough people want to - they'll find that way.

I'm sure there's a lot of first nations who are thinking "we had it tough for years, now we'll make them pay". What they don't realize is - that can easily work the other way too if they try to disrespect people's rights.

Wait and see young fella. It won't happen all at once - but it'll happen and the first nations will be back to what they were before, and people just won't care.

Stephen
07-19-2014, 02:32 AM
But if they were gods chosen people it would be totally different.



AM I RIGHT!?!?!??!

Strewth
07-19-2014, 03:23 AM
But if they were gods chosen people it would be totally different.



AM I RIGHT!?!?!??!

Wasn't that the Gaels? I want Londinium in Britannia back from those thieving Romans.

Facepalm
07-19-2014, 07:18 AM
UMMMM, excuse me , but I understand there are treaty Natives but are there any real natives around? You know full blooded? When you sit back and ponder this, you realize that it is all the same. And there are no reserves anymore, no land claims etc etc etc.


You need to go back and Parkinson's works. It will give you a whole new insight to native issues.