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View Full Version : Posting about ongoing police investigation....



FALover
12-17-2014, 07:25 PM
....yea or nay? I am not in trouble(so far) and am wondering if I was to post a interesting thing that happened to me today regarding an ongoing investigation is ok? If so it will be in general firearm, if not then delete button it is.

stevesummit
12-17-2014, 07:31 PM
Gossip is good post away

Jay
12-18-2014, 01:10 PM
An ongoing investigation isn't the same as sealed court documents, unless you're...

http://stallonezone.com/imgs/news/2011/aug/083111judge_dredd.png

A good way for evidence to never see the light of day is to put it in a box marked "ongoing investigation" and tuck it away somewhere.

Foxer
12-18-2014, 04:37 PM
If there's a chance that you may somehow become involved in the investigation or charged, I would discourage you from posting about it until you're sure. The fact is anything you say can be used against you - but it won't be used to help you. The vast majority of people talk themselves into trouble, few talk themselves out.

I'm sure the legal folk around here will probably advise you similarly (no advantage to talking, much potential disadvantage). But - if you're concerned i'd perhaps look to talk to one of them first.

Remember - words matter and choosing the RIGHT words in court is critical beyond belief. You're better off to say nothing for now until you talk to a legal expert.

Waterloomike
12-18-2014, 04:43 PM
You might still be able to get gun owners insurance if you haven't already.

Candychikita
12-18-2014, 05:15 PM
If there's a chance that you may somehow become involved in the investigation or charged, I would discourage you from posting about it until you're sure. The fact is anything you say can be used against you - but it won't be used to help you. The vast majority of people talk themselves into trouble, few talk themselves out.

I'm sure the legal folk around here will probably advise you similarly (no advantage to talking, much potential disadvantage). But - if you're concerned i'd perhaps look to talk to one of them first.

Remember - words matter and choosing the RIGHT words in court is critical beyond belief. You're better off to say nothing for now until you talk to a legal expert.

Hushed is good.

However...I was told that as far as evidence goes, because digital stuff can be altered and people can use another person's moniker online and use photoshop awesomeness, a verbal/handwritten/witnessed/written sworn testimony is looked at far more favourably as it could be proven to be coming from the person they claim it to be. You're only an IP address, that may or may not be shared.

My online blog, although date stamped, password protected and witnessed by others online, wasn't sufficient evidence. A never-shared handwritten journal was. Same with text messages - Printing out a copy and then tossing the actual text makes it invalid; you need it kept on your device. Rogers only keeps copies of your text messages on your phone record for 3 months, so if you need to use something for evidence, you need it as intact as possible.

Canada Evidence Act


Authentication of electronic documents

31.1 Any person seeking to admit an electronic document as evidence has the burden of proving its authenticity by evidence capable of supporting a finding that the electronic document is that which it is purported to be.

2000, c. 5, s. 56.

Marginal note:Application of best evidence rule — electronic documents

31.2 (1) The best evidence rule in respect of an electronic document is satisfied

(a) on proof of the integrity of the electronic documents system by or in which the electronic document was recorded or stored; or

(b) if an evidentiary presumption established under section 31.4 applies.
Marginal note:Printouts

(2) Despite subsection (1), in the absence of evidence to the contrary, an electronic document in the form of a printout satisfies the best evidence rule if the printout has been manifestly or consistently acted on, relied on or used as a record of the information recorded or stored in the printout.

2000, c. 5, s. 56.

Marginal note:Presumption of integrity

31.3 For the purposes of subsection 31.2(1), in the absence of evidence to the contrary, the integrity of an electronic documents system by or in which an electronic document is recorded or stored is proven

(a) by evidence capable of supporting a finding that at all material times the computer system or other similar device used by the electronic documents system was operating properly or, if it was not, the fact of its not operating properly did not affect the integrity of the electronic document and there are no other reasonable grounds to doubt the integrity of the electronic documents system;

(b) if it is established that the electronic document was recorded or stored by a party who is adverse in interest to the party seeking to introduce it; or

(c) if it is established that the electronic document was recorded or stored in the usual and ordinary course of business by a person who is not a party and who did not record or store it under the control of the party seeking to introduce it.

Presumptions regarding secure electronic signatures

31.4 The Governor in Council may make regulations establishing evidentiary presumptions in relation to electronic documents signed with secure electronic signatures, including regulations respecting

(a) the association of secure electronic signatures with persons; and

(b) the integrity of information contained in electronic documents signed with secure electronic signatures.

2000, c. 5, s. 56.

Foxer
12-18-2014, 05:24 PM
However...I was told that as far as evidence goes, because digital stuff can be altered and people can use another person's moniker online and use photoshop awesomeness, a verbal/handwritten/witnessed/written sworn testimony is looked at far more favourably as it could be proven to be coming from the person they claim it to be. You're only an IP address, that may or may not be shared.

That's absolutely true, but at the same time there's a number of cases where online commentary has been introduced as evidence and if it's not 'as' strong it can still work against you. Silence however is rarely entered as evidence in court :)

RangeBob
12-18-2014, 05:46 PM
Silence however is rarely entered as evidence in court :)

Hypothetical Detective on witness stand: "I put it to you all that I grilled the defendant Foxer for over six hours on the topic of 'if he had ever walked on Mars'. Not once did he deny it, as any reasonable man would have. I put it to you that, on a balance of probabilities, that his non denial denial is in fact a blatant admission that Foxer has in fact walked on Mars and is right now criminally hiding from the honorable members of this court and indeed the people's of Earth his means of transport!"

Foxer
12-18-2014, 05:59 PM
Hypothetical Detective on witness stand: "I put it to you all that I grilled the defendant Foxer for over six hours on the topic of 'if he had ever walked on Mars'. Not once did he deny it, as any reasonable man would have. I put it to you that, on a balance of probabilities, that his non denial denial is in fact a blatant admission that Foxer has in fact walked on Mars and is right now criminally hiding from the honorable members of this court and indeed the people's of Earth his means of transport!"

Doesn't fly if you say nothing. If you DO talk about the case but don't deny it, then you could be in trouble. But if you didn't answer, the 'didn't deny it' thing goes out the window entirely.

blacksmithden
12-18-2014, 06:54 PM
Bell Canada maintenance manager to staff: If you could have the new machine in black, or white, which would it be ?
Staff to manager: Well, if we had our choice it would be black.
Bell Canada maintenance manger to other managers in a meeting 1 hour later: I consulted with the maintenance staff, and they voiced no objection to red.
Other managers: Ok. Just to keep the maintenance staff happy, red it is.

Not a court of law, but that's how it went down.

Candychikita
12-19-2014, 01:26 PM
Doesn't fly if you say nothing. If you DO talk about the case but don't deny it, then you could be in trouble. But if you didn't answer, the 'didn't deny it' thing goes out the window entirely.

Hmm. I can't remember what course it was I was taking but there was a section on the right to silence. We in Canada can't really "plead the 5th", but we can use a Charter right (section 7?) to silence. In R. v. Hebert the court held that the right to silence was a principle of fundamental justice. Statements of the accused cannot be achieved through police trickery and silence cannot be used to make any inference of guilt.

This said, and I can't remember the exact case, but the police has continued badgering witnesses into confessions after they claim their right to silence and the info they got after harassement WAS accepted in court. Rangebob, do you have that info? My google fu is weak.

EDIT - ya, can't seem to find it right now. Moral of the story, in Canada you can use the right to silence, but you can still be harassed out of your right. Hold fast if you're using your right to silence.

harbl_the_cat
12-19-2014, 03:12 PM
You might still be able to get gun owners insurance if you haven't already.

x5.

This insurance is a GREAT value - even just for the legal hotline.

I've called it 3 times this year (routine dealings with the police, and contract related questions) - but it's also good to know they have emergency lawyers on standby in case you're being arrested.

Waterloomike
12-19-2014, 03:21 PM
x5.

This insurance is a GREAT value - even just for the legal hotline.

I've called it 3 times this year (routine dealings with the police, and contract related questions) - but it's also good to know they have emergency lawyers on standby in case you're being arrested.

I've never used it or the hotline, but it just makes sense.

Since he hasn't been charged with anything, i'm thinking he would still be eligible.

harbl_the_cat
12-19-2014, 04:55 PM
I've never used it or the hotline, but it just makes sense.

Since he hasn't been charged with anything, i'm thinking he would still be eligible.

You can call that hotline for anything.

I had a clause in my contract I needed clarifying. I spent 30 minutes talking to a lawyer about it and got some pretty prudent and actionable advice.

Waterloomike
12-19-2014, 05:56 PM
You can call that hotline for anything.

I had a clause in my contract I needed clarifying. I spent 30 minutes talking to a lawyer about it and got some pretty prudent and actionable advice.

Just 30 minutes with a lawyer could be the price of the coverage. It's really sounding like a bargain now.

conger
12-19-2014, 07:21 PM
My wife and I both carry Fldi. I've used the hotline twice so far and I think it's cheap peace of mind.

Lee Enfield
12-19-2014, 11:30 PM
Just 30 minutes with a lawyer could be the price of the coverage. It's really sounding like a bargain now.

My lawyer charges $425.00/hour.

Edenchef
12-20-2014, 12:35 PM
Just remember the magic words for dealing with police.......I want my lawyer....I want my lawyer....I want my lawyer. Repeat until they provide your lawyer. The other ones that work really well after hours and hours in a little "interrogation" room.....I need the washroom, RIGHT NOW!!!.

Cheers!

762shooter
12-20-2014, 12:47 PM
Hmm. I can't remember what course it was I was taking but there was a section on the right to silence. We in Canada can't really "plead the 5th", but we can use a Charter right (section 7?) to silence. In R. v. Hebert the court held that the right to silence was a principle of fundamental justice. Statements of the accused cannot be achieved through police trickery and silence cannot be used to make any inference of guilt.

This said, and I can't remember the exact case, but the police has continued badgering witnesses into confessions after they claim their right to silence and the info they got after harassement WAS accepted in court. Rangebob, do you have that info? My google fu is weak.

EDIT - ya, can't seem to find it right now. Moral of the story, in Canada you can use the right to silence, but you can still be harassed out of your right. Hold fast if you're using your right to silence.

You nailed it. A person being interrogated can express their wish to remain silent until the cows come home but the cops can and will keep grilling the person with the intention of wearing them down, tricking, confusing or provoking them until they blurt something out. It takes a great deal of fortitude to stand up to this for hours on end.

Furthermore, the cops that do this kind of interrogation have high quality training on how to phrase things, what hot buttons to press, how to use the Dutch uncle tone of voice to convince the person that they (the cops) are there to help the person, etc. I knew an RCMP who had this training and he described the process to me. Then a few years ago I read the transcript of an interrogation and I could see the tactics he described being employed in the interrogation.

Edenchef
12-21-2014, 01:06 AM
However, as I was told by a prominent criminal attorney, after you ask for a lawyer nothing from that point until you actually get to talk to a lawyer is admissible. I speak from very personal experience.

Cheers!

alaus24
12-26-2014, 02:37 PM
I searched cant come up with proper phraseology...I read about this fund , can someone link it? thanks

Waterloomike
12-26-2014, 06:26 PM
I searched cant come up with proper phraseology...I read about this fund , can someone link it? thanks

Fund for what?

FALover
12-26-2014, 06:46 PM
Fund for what?

I think he is looking for the firearms owner insurance that was offered up.

http://www.firearmlegaldefence.com/

Waterloomike
12-26-2014, 07:04 PM
...

Petamocto
12-26-2014, 09:57 PM
However, as I was told by a prominent criminal attorney, after you ask for a lawyer nothing from that point until you actually get to talk to a lawyer is admissible. I speak from very personal experience.

"You get no immunity from me, Verbal!"

http://static.rogerebert.com/redactor_assets/pictures/far-flung-correspondents/too-much-frosting-not-enough-cake/Usual_20Suspects_205.jpg