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lone-wolf
01-14-2015, 05:54 PM
'concept'
And this channel seems to post a lot of misinformation.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwSfjdYGENA

blacksmithden
01-14-2015, 06:23 PM
Ummmm. I highly doubt paying for the development and manufacture of a new stealth fighter is in the budget.

lone-wolf
01-14-2015, 06:34 PM
Ummmm. I highly doubt paying for the development and manufacture of a new stealth fighter is in the budget.

no kidding. that youtube channel is flakey at best, I was trying to find a way to stay half updated on military developments.

FALover
01-14-2015, 06:40 PM
Maybe it is time Canada became a more prominent member of the worlds armament industry. No more second hand subs or borrowed main battle tanks. If a small country such as Israel can develop a 'in house' industry and keep its citizens employed as well why not Canada.

Zinilin
01-14-2015, 07:35 PM
Looks like two turbofans (with afterburners) in the body and also two turbojets (from a B-52) under each wing.
I don't think this is real.

lone-wolf
01-14-2015, 07:42 PM
Looks like two turbofans (with afterburners) in the body and also two turbojets (from a B-52) under each wing.
I don't think this is real.

Those aren't in the actual video

short1
01-14-2015, 07:57 PM
The orginal Arrow was a handsome machine. Too bad anything shaped like that now is far from stealthy.

blacksmithden
01-14-2015, 10:23 PM
Well gang....let oil prices drop far enough, and half of Alberta will be off on pogy. Then we can mobilize the redneck army to build the next fighter. Even if it doesn't fly, you bet your ass it'll be 4 wheel drive and be painted in camo. :D

Donny Fenn
01-15-2015, 11:37 PM
Maybe it is time Canada became a more prominent member of the worlds armament industry. No more second hand subs or borrowed main battle tanks. If a small country such as Israel can develop a 'in house' industry and keep its citizens employed as well why not Canada.

Are we not in the top ten in the world in arms supply/manufacturers? We'd rather just sell the stuff than supply it to our guys.

Candychikita
01-16-2015, 11:24 AM
You got me excited with the title. I like Avro Arrows :D

kennymo
01-16-2015, 12:27 PM
Was this video from an Arrow special on History or Discovery? I recall watching a documentary type dealy on Avro that ended with someone's concept of how the Arrow would have progressed into a modern, world beating fighter-bomber if the program hadn't been canned.

lone-wolf
01-16-2015, 06:19 PM
Was this video from an Arrow special on History or Discovery? I recall watching a documentary type dealy on Avro that ended with someone's concept of how the Arrow would have progressed into a modern, world beating fighter-bomber if the program hadn't been canned.

It might of been, like I said, the youtube channel is flakey at best.

Petamocto
01-16-2015, 06:30 PM
I like to get nostalgic too, but the Arrow was not the rare perfect beast the CBC movie made it out to be. Remember that the SR71 was being designed and tested at about the same time, so it's not like Canada had a monopoly on good planes or good engines.

Murray_B
01-17-2015, 02:06 PM
And this channel seems to post a lot of misinformation.
Well, lone-wolf, It is not just Youtube but many sources have squandered millions repeating liberal fantasies about the Avro Arrow.

Now some people are proposing to rebuild the fifties-era all-metal Arrow with its primitive vacuum tube electronics in the twenty-first century. That is just crazy considering the facts.

Here are a few:

1. A.V. Roe (Canada) was always British-owned and controlled from London, England by, "Sir Roy Dobson, managing director of the Hawker Siddeley Group and chairman of A. V. Roe (Canada) Ltd. [...]" (from "Flight" magazine.)

2. Most of Avro Canada's top people came from the U.K. as did a slight majority of the engineers.

3. The Liberals decided to cancel the Arrow program in 1957. At that time continuing to build the Arrow would have cost taxpayers about four times as much as buying Voodoo interceptors in their place.

4. In 1958 Diefenbaker's Cabinet was advised the Arrows would cost about $2 billion for 206 aircraft or about $9.7 million each. The list price of a new Voodoo at that time was around $1.85 million and a Delta Dart was about double that at $3.75 million. [For comparison, a new Cadillac Sedan DeVille was about $5500 and a new Buick Electra was around $3500.]

5. In those same Cabinet minutes the Canadian Chiefs of Staff recommended cancellation of the Arrow program by advising, "Finally, the cost of the CF-105 programme as a whole was now of such a magnitude that the Chiefs of Staff felt that, to meet the modest requirement of manned aircraft presently considered advisable, it would be more economical to procure a fully developed interceptor of comparable performance in the U.S.

6. The decision by Diefenbaker's Government to cancel the Arrow program did not cause the "Black Friday" layoffs. It would be impossible for any Canadian Prime Minister to fire employees of a private company and this is especially true for a foreign-owned one like A.V. Roe (Canada) Ltd.

The government had allotted $50 million to preserve the industry "intact" and this was enough money to buy a new Buick Electra for every one of Avro Canada's 14,000 employees. Despite all the funds available the company chose to fire everyone anyway.

The Arrow program was doomed after the Liberals decided to cancel it in 1957 because as History Professor Michael Bliss once said, "[...] no responsible government could have continued to support the Arrow.[...]".

Diefenbaker's government simply continued with the Liberal's plan to cancel the program so there is no mystery as to why the Arrow program was cancelled. A country with only 17 million people could not afford to continue with a $2 billion (not corrected for inflation) aircraft development program.

lone-wolf
01-18-2015, 10:39 AM
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Avro-Arrow-Bourdeau-Industries-Official/402158416505160

Petamocto
01-18-2015, 11:06 AM
I have this signed print from Ron Suchiu from about 20 years ago called Echelon of Arrows (obviously fictitious as 201-206 never flew in formation, yet still awesome).

My parents got it for me for Christmas when I was still a teenager, and I think it was a couple hundred back then. It's over $1500 on the website now, but I think it's too cool to ever sell.

https://suchiuart.com/images/large/echelon_arrows.jpg

Murray_B
01-18-2015, 12:59 PM
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Avro-Arrow-Bourdeau-Industries-Official/402158416505160
Thanks for the pointer to the information, lone-wolf, but I was already aware of the proposal.

It is bad enough that they want government money to recreate a completely British-owned all-metal aircraft from the fifties but it is also the totally imaginary mach 3.5 version.

Who owned the Arrow intellectual property is clear from http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1959/1959%20-%200654.html

The real Avro Arrow was capable of "just about Mach number 2" and "[ ] There was nothing extraordinary about it. [...]" See the CBC interview of Aerospace Engineering Professor Julius Lukasiewicz at 1:11 and 3:50 at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWuZtk8uPP0

Stretching "just about Mach number 2" to Mach 3.5 is quite a feat considering the Arrow's aluminum skin should have melted long before it even got to Mach 3. Real Mach 3+ interceptors have skins of stainless steel or titanium alloy to take the frictional heat generated by flying at those speeds.

When the "Liberals Planned to Cancel the Arrow" in 1957 they made the correct decison. See "The [Montreal] Gazette" 23 OCT 63" page 2 at http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=Fr8DH2VBP9sC&dat=19631023&printsec=frontpage&hl=en

Nothing has changed since then so the giant flying white elephant should remain cancelled and our governments should stop funding liberal fantasies about the aircraft.

RAFMedic
03-02-2015, 11:05 AM
While I loved the Arrow, the story has become so filled with nostalgia and myth thats its simply ridiculous. Same as the Canadian Militia winning the War of 1812. Didn't even look at the video actually, considering that picture shows an aircraft about as "stealthy" as a 3000 ton ship. Radar magnet.

Foxer
03-02-2015, 11:09 AM
While I loved the Arrow, the story has become so filled with nostalgia and myth thats its simply ridiculous. Same as the Canadian Militia winning the War of 1812. Didn't even look at the video actually, considering that picture shows an aircraft about as "stealthy" as a 3000 ton ship. Radar magnet.

Yeah. Still.. it's a nice dream :)

RAFMedic
03-02-2015, 11:52 AM
Yeah. Still.. it's a nice dream :)
HaHa...for you maybe, not for the poor buggers in the seats. My first tour in the RAF was on a '50s airframe that was more stealthy than that thing.
http://www.aircraftphotos.biz/photos/military-photos/Original%20Files/RAF%20Victor.jpg

Mobusten
03-09-2015, 04:54 PM
Maybe it is time Canada became a more prominent member of the worlds armament industry. No more second hand subs or borrowed main battle tanks. If a small country such as Israel can develop a 'in house' industry and keep its citizens employed as well why not Canada.

Perhaps if the US gave Canada as much military aid money as it gives Israel, we could.

Petamocto
03-09-2015, 05:29 PM
Perhaps if the US gave Canada as much military aid money as it gives Israel, we could.

You realize that without the US as our neighbour that we'd have to spend $200B per year on defence instead of $20B per year, right?

They don't have to give us anything when they put us in a position for us not to have to spend much in the first place.

Mobusten
03-09-2015, 05:40 PM
You realize that without the US as our neighbour that we'd have to spend $200B per year on defence instead of $20B per year, right?

They don't have to give us anything when they put us in a position for us not to have to spend much in the first place.

I hope you realize that I don't actually think Canada needs military aid.. The point of my comment is that Israel's weapons research didn't come from thin air.

Petamocto
03-09-2015, 07:35 PM
I hope you realize that I don't actually think Canada needs military aid.. The point of my comment is that Israel's weapons research didn't come from thin air.

My obvious next question is this: What about your agenda makes you shoehorn Israel into a conversation about the Avro Arrow?

Mobusten
03-09-2015, 07:47 PM
My obvious next question is this: What about your agenda makes you shoehorn Israel into a conversation about the Avro Arrow?

Wow man... I'm not looking to get into some kind of dick measuring contest with you. It was a response to another member's remark about how Israel was able to become a leader in weapon technologies. If you'll take the time to read back... I did not shoehorn anything.

FALover
03-09-2015, 08:36 PM
Remember. Friendly Firearms Forum.

Swampdonkey
03-09-2015, 08:47 PM
Remember. Friendly Firearms Forum.

This is getting good, don't break the wave.