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Canada_Phil
02-25-2015, 10:33 AM
Just an fyi question for me really...

At around the time these basically disappeared from most stores stocking them, what was the average retail price?

At one time I believe they were just $699 with all original accessories including 4 pinned magazines in a surplus leather carrier. Was that still the case or had the price climbed?... Or dropped?

If these were to see the light of day again in Canada, any speculation on what they would sell for then?

kennymo
02-25-2015, 10:41 AM
Given the forum you're talking CZ858 I guess? I seem to recall them right around the $700 mark for the non-restricted beaver barf stock when Wolverine had them in. More for the folding version. They were out of stock for quite some time before the status change due to the shenanigans with customs, not sure what the pricing would have been had that batch made it to store shelves.

Canada_Phil
02-25-2015, 10:46 AM
Thanks!

Yeah, that is what I thought I remembered.

I hope these get a reprive. They had never been on my radar, but now for some reason I would really like to check one out if they hit stores again.

kennymo
02-25-2015, 11:09 AM
Thanks!

Yeah, that is what I thought I remembered.

I hope these get a reprive. They had never been on my radar, but now for some reason I would really like to check one out if they hit stores again.

Won't happen unless current laws change. No importer wants to touch them with a ten foot pole, Wolverine took a serious ding when they were sent back to CZ by customs/the RCMP.

The VZ58's are a close copy built on new receivers, but seem to go for nearly $1000 new. Wolverine is working on importing the CZ958, which also has a new receiver and a built in rail for mounting optics. It's been designed specifically to avoid any question of being a 'converted auto', but last I heard the price tag was expected to be between $800-$900. If the dollar stays low I'm not sure what that could end up being...

Steveo9mm
02-25-2015, 11:22 AM
I paid $1300 for mine but i got a ton of accesories for it. Folding stocks, xcr mag conversion as well as original mags, 10 xcr mags back to back or whatever its called when they are attached, cleaning kits and 100 rounds of amo. Plus other goodies. Glad i bought it even though ive never shot it before the big banning.

Canada_Phil
02-25-2015, 11:36 AM
The 958 would essentially be the same gun though really??, which would only illustrate how non-sensicle these situations are!

But if that is all we are left with legally, I think it will be worth a look.

I would guess that in the end, any approved "958" would be a fixed stock only with a pinned non-detachable 5 round magazine... Like the VZ "Liberty" that was specifically made for States like New York & California??... So bye, bye 4 included pinned 5/30 mags in a leather surplus pouch?

EDIT... Oh, ok. I Googled 958 and see a bunch of pics posted at CGN. That is not too bad, and the addition of the rail at least justifies a bit of a price premium. I will definitely check out a 958 if ever approved for sale... Assuming of course that C42 has passed by then and we would be guaranteed to never have to fear about a reclassification.

kennymo
02-25-2015, 12:19 PM
The 958 would essentially be the same gun though really??, which would only illustrate how non-sensicle these situations are!

But if that is all we are left with legally, I think it will be worth a look.

I would guess that in the end, any approved "958" would be a fixed stock only with a pinned non-detachable 5 round magazine... Like the VZ "Liberty" that was specifically made for States like New York & California??... So bye, bye 4 included pinned 5/30 mags in a leather surplus pouch?

EDIT... Oh, ok. I Googled 958 and see a bunch of pics posted at CGN. That is not too bad, and the addition of the rail at least justifies a bit of a price premium. I will definitely check out a 958 if ever approved for sale... Assuming of course that C42 has passed by then and we would be guaranteed to never have to fear about a reclassification.

The issue with the CZ858 (according to the RCMP at any rate :rolleyes:) is that they were previously assembled as full auto military rifles. CZ claims they are built on recycled unused military receivers, which is OK by Canadian law as long as they've never been previously assembled as an automatic and are permanently altered to semi only. The RCMP claims to have proof that some were stripped from old guns, AFAIK they've never made this information public. Which illustrates just how bunk the whole converted auto bit is. We're about to get a new gun from the same factory, with all the same internal parts, takes most of the same accesories, and it's going to have improved optic mounting. And it'll be perfectly legal, the RCMP will have no grounds for 'converted auto' since the railed receiver has no military counterpart.
So the only thing the new rifle will need to worry about is the Liberal Party.....or by some massive stroke of luck, the NDP...

Canada_Phil
02-25-2015, 12:54 PM
Ahh pooooooooh....

One negative for me now. I just realized a full rail will negate direct charging from a STRIPPER CLIP. This is an oldskool feature I still very much appreciate. I love it on the SKS and it was something that had me now thinking about the now banned 858.

I would be extremely happy if there was an option for a "half-length" receiver rail so the bolt area would still be fully open, coupled with a factory railed front upper hand guard. Oh well... Time will tell what this ends up like.

kennymo
02-25-2015, 12:57 PM
There's still the VZ and that one coming up from the US. Was it Century Arms?

Canada_Phil
03-10-2015, 08:50 PM
After thinking about it further, I have zero trust in getting anything related to the VZ58 "family" from Wolverine. Im not saying that they are not a great company to deal with, but on this issue, they and CZ have FAILED.

They should be be formulating plans for compensating customers who have been burned with 858's, BEFORE they even think about trying to get another CZ imported.

lone-wolf
03-10-2015, 09:15 PM
The issue with the CZ858 (according to the RCMP at any rate :rolleyes:) is that they were previously assembled as full auto military rifles. CZ claims they are built on recycled unused military receivers, which is OK by Canadian law as long as they've never been previously assembled as an automatic and are permanently altered to semi only. The RCMP claims to have proof that some were stripped from old guns, AFAIK they've never made this information public. Which illustrates just how bunk the whole converted auto bit is.

Yep. If one was converted from a manufactured full auto, then they can prohib that specific rifle. Using broad strokes like the RCMP is doing is complete BS, the burden of proof should be on them to prove every single rifle was once a fully assembled full auto. An owner should be able to take them to court and say 'prove it'

Wolverine and CZ has not failed. Canadians have failed for allowing these laws to pass. This is all on the RCMP afaik.
Not all vz58s are part of this btw, my chrome lined czh2003, is still non-res :D

kennymo
03-10-2015, 09:21 PM
Well, barring disaster those CZ's will be perfectly legit again in a few months.... Plus Wolverine did promise to work out a deal for new receivers should they wind up perma banned, so I wouldn't sweat it too much. And I'd put this more on the shoulders of the RCMP at any rate....

Canada_Phil
03-10-2015, 09:46 PM
Once the RCMP were made aware that what was now being sold was NOT what had originally passed the smell test years ago, they were OBLIGATED under law to raise the issue! Its as simple as that! There is NO conspiracy here. Converted full Auto's have always been banned.

There is obviously more to this story, but I really don't see this story having a happy ending for ANY 858 owner that had the misfortune of buying one of the 858's which were produced via corner cutting.

The C42 reclassification issues are a different matter. That change I think WILL go through. But the government won't give a pass to any rifle that the RCMP can demonstrate was in fact made out of a converted automatic!! Im guessing they have the means and info to prove that what CZ & Wolverine submitted for approval years ago is NOT what CZ was shipping recently! And that would all fall on CZ, and obviously Wolverine, as THEY are the importer of the product and deemed as an "expert" under Canadian products liabilty law.

They were obligated to know and understand the nature of the products they were selling... Especially when we are talking about military grade firearms!

kennymo
03-10-2015, 10:16 PM
The RCMP has yet to offer proof of anything. C42, if worded as promised, will allow the government to name a gun non restricted no matter what physical characteristics it may have. Same way the AR is named restricted while meeting none of the physical criteria for being a restricted firearm. Once named non-restricted, there shouldn't be SFA the horsemen can do about it.

Canada_Phil
03-10-2015, 10:35 PM
The RCMP has yet to offer proof of anything. C42, if worded as promised, will allow the government to name a gun non restricted no matter what physical characteristics it may have. Same way the AR is named restricted while meeting none of the physical criteria for being a restricted firearm. Once named non-restricted, there shouldn't be SFA the horsemen can do about it.

There is no way in hell that the Government will give a PASS to anything that is shown to be made out of converted automatics. This would be a political quagmire because of the can of worms it could unleash. I can see certain ones getting a pass (just like 2003 vintage ones), but unless C42 was also striking down the provision of the Firearms Act relating to converted autos, don't plan on any reprieves.

If there is compensation to be had, it better be coming from CZ and Wolverine!! At the very least (if the Gov. allows it) Wolverine SHOULD have been working out a plan in conjunction with CZ to completely replace entire receivers (AND barrels since they are press fit!). The have had more than a year to be hashing out such a plan with their accountants.

kennymo
03-10-2015, 10:49 PM
The early imports ARE still non restricted. And the government has already promised the reprieve. No can of worms, it's all been drug out in public already. Turns out not too many people really gave a #### outside of Angry Tom and whatever's left of the CGC.

lone-wolf
03-10-2015, 11:51 PM
nm.

kennymo
03-11-2015, 07:23 AM
http://i1328.photobucket.com/albums/w534/kennymo81/Mobile%20Uploads/03E2BEEB-5C68-4743-A835-98227EF8F22A_zpsqssb4mg7.jpg (http://s1328.photobucket.com/user/kennymo81/media/Mobile%20Uploads/03E2BEEB-5C68-4743-A835-98227EF8F22A_zpsqssb4mg7.jpg.html)

That 958 is looking pretty sweet....

Canada_Phil
03-11-2015, 09:39 AM
http://i1328.photobucket.com/albums/w534/kennymo81/Mobile%20Uploads/03E2BEEB-5C68-4743-A835-98227EF8F22A_zpsqssb4mg7.jpg (http://s1328.photobucket.com/user/kennymo81/media/Mobile%20Uploads/03E2BEEB-5C68-4743-A835-98227EF8F22A_zpsqssb4mg7.jpg.html)

That 958 is looking pretty sweet....

So was the "858" and look how that turned out!
;)

Ps... That enormous Wolverine logo and giant white CZ lettering that are imprinted on BOTH sides if the receiver is pretty gawdy. Hopefully, those are just "promo" models and not what any final product would look like.

kennymo
03-11-2015, 11:54 AM
I'm not too concerned about a little white lettering, if we don't get off our butts and convince the CPC to finally kaibosh the UN marking requirements they're all gonna look worse than that pretty soon....

harbl_the_cat
03-12-2015, 12:57 PM
Soooo... what's the status with the CZ858 right now?

kennymo
03-12-2015, 01:05 PM
Soooo... what's the status with the CZ858 right now?

Early imports are still non restricted with a 19" barrel, restricted with <18.5". Everything else is currently prohibited with amnesty, awaiting C-42 and a couple say so's from the CPC to return to non-restricted or restricted as the case may be. New imports don't look promising, Wolverine being set on the 958 now.

And I can't remember the cut off date for the unaffected rifles off the top of my head, I think first year of import only, but I can't quite recall....

Steveo9mm
03-12-2015, 01:10 PM
im not a big fan of the 958. it looks like an 858 trying to be an AR and not working very well.

kennymo
03-12-2015, 01:14 PM
http://i1328.photobucket.com/albums/w534/kennymo81/Mobile%20Uploads/03E2BEEB-5C68-4743-A835-98227EF8F22A_zpsqssb4mg7.jpg (http://s1328.photobucket.com/user/kennymo81/media/Mobile%20Uploads/03E2BEEB-5C68-4743-A835-98227EF8F22A_zpsqssb4mg7.jpg.html)

That 958 is looking pretty sweet....

That's not the factory hardware, PressPass is messing around with aftermarket stuff already. I kind of prefer it with the wire folder (appearance wise). I think they're going to be available in full beaver barf as well, which despite appearances I kind of enjoy.....it's very...functional...