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View Full Version : No More BB/Airguns in the Backyard???



Trickle Charge
03-18-2015, 12:06 PM
Is this true depending on municipal bylaws? Even the ones that are under 500 fps?

Drache
03-18-2015, 12:11 PM
Bylaws are created by the city so yeah, they can state no BB/Airguns/Bows/Crossbows/Paintball/Etc within city limits. My home town has had a bylaw like that since I was a kid although no one cared to follow it.

Trickle Charge
03-18-2015, 01:03 PM
The local hunting store sells air guns and told me it was fine to shoot as long as they are under 500 fps. Local bylaw says air gun = firearm period.

Drache
03-18-2015, 03:14 PM
The local hunting store sells air guns and told me it was fine to shoot as long as they are under 500 fps. Local bylaw says air gun = firearm period.

Bylaw is the city's own laws. What you were told is misinformation at the hunting store is misinformation.

blacksmithden
03-18-2015, 07:40 PM
Municipalities can pass bylaws like this and many have. Hell...did you read about the ones Tabor Alberta just passed ? No yelling, no spitting....there might have been something in there about a 7pm curfew but don't quote me on that one. Municipal governments/town councils are notorious for passing wimp laws.

Wendell
03-18-2015, 08:24 PM
https://nfa.ca/news/supreme-court-canada-rules-air-guns-are-firearms

Trickle Charge
03-18-2015, 08:38 PM
So you can't even knock over a few cans in your own back yard? Asinine.

Drache
03-18-2015, 09:33 PM
https://nfa.ca/news/supreme-court-canada-rules-air-guns-are-firearms

Airguns were ruled as "firearms" by bylaw standards long before that ruling was made by the courts. To most bylaws, they define firearms as "anything that shoots a projectile", so by that term even nerf guns are classified as a "firearm".

Steveo9mm
03-19-2015, 07:04 AM
PROHIBITED

http://s1.hubimg.com/u/4012252_f520.jpg

Sadosubliminal
03-19-2015, 10:17 AM
It is lunacy. There is no practical reason why an air gun under 500 fps should be subject to any laws. Even laws dictating air guns be painted orange are pointless in a world where gang members are painting their real guns to look like airsoft.

This tells me that it's okay to participate in an orgy of simulated death in an online multiplayer game, but it's bad to pick off a few cans in your back yard. No logic whatsoever. What happened to the days marksmanship was taught in schools? We live in sad times.

Drache
03-19-2015, 10:30 AM
It is lunacy. There is no practical reason why an air gun under 500 fps should be subject to any laws. Even laws dictating air guns be painted orange are pointless in a world where gang members are painting their real guns to look like airsoft.

This tells me that it's okay to participate in an orgy of simulated death in an online multiplayer game, but it's bad to pick off a few cans in your back yard. No logic whatsoever. What happened to the days marksmanship was taught in schools? We live in sad times.

It was done because people were worried of pellets flying through the air in neighborhoods. Too many stupid people doing things that other stupid people had to make made laws to help protect everyone else.

Edenchef
03-19-2015, 10:45 AM
It was done because people were worried of pellets flying through the air in neighborhoods. Too many stupid people doing things that other stupid people had to make made laws to help protect everyone else.

So, in essence, stupid people, pass stupid laws, to protect stupid people, from the stupid actions of other stupid people. Proof..... Frank Z. was right....stupid is the most common element in the universe.

Cheers!

Gaidheal
03-19-2015, 12:37 PM
Stupid people - why we can't have nice things.

Sadosubliminal
03-20-2015, 10:48 AM
It was done because people were worried of pellets flying through the air in neighborhoods. Too many stupid people doing things that other stupid people had to make made laws to help protect everyone else.

Problem is, we don't need stupid laws. A pellet traveling sub-500fps is hardly a menace. I've been hit by them point blank, so I know what they're capable of - which is to say: not much. If some idiots were running around shooting at neighbours or their houses, we already have laws that deal with that sort of thing, like assault and vandalism laws. Seems to me it would make more sense to use the existing laws to punish stupid behaviour, not make new ones that punish everyone preemptively. More likely it was a bunch of frightened soccer moms calling 911, or optics, or myths, or some other over-reactive BS that resulted in the state of affairs we have now. Common sense is dead.

Neil Burke
03-20-2015, 08:02 PM
Problem is, we don't need stupid laws. A pellet traveling sub-500fps is hardly a menace. I've been hit by them point blank, so I know what they're capable of - which is to say: not much. If some idiots were running around shooting at neighbours or their houses, we already have laws that deal with that sort of thing, like assault and vandalism laws. Seems to me it would make more sense to use the existing laws to punish stupid behaviour, not make new ones that punish everyone preemptively. More likely it was a bunch of frightened soccer moms calling 911, or optics, or myths, or some other over-reactive BS that resulted in the state of affairs we have now. Common sense is dead.

The problem is the stupid kids/adults who know as much and don't think about the possibility of hitting someone in the eye.

Sadosubliminal
03-20-2015, 09:49 PM
So address that stupidity with existing laws. Shouldn't that suffice? You shoot someone in the eye, and you're going to get charged with assault. Works for me. Much the same as blanket legislation that punishes all firearms owners, the new regulations surrounding airsoft and other such toys - and yes, they are toys - are complete nonsense and serve to punish those who never intended to misuse their airsoft/bb guns in the first place.

I grew up surrounded by kids with BB guns and other projectile toys (my parents were lame and never bought me one). Some could be used to take out small birds. No one I knew ever pointed it at anyone or tried to harm someone else's property. There was occasionally some punk teenager who would take his paintball marker and shoot out a light on someones doorstep, and everyone agreed that they should be arrested for vandalism. No one cried for new laws as we already had the tools at hand to deal with rotten punks like that. A law that serves no purpose shouldn't exist in the first place.

Drache
03-21-2015, 07:58 AM
It's also meant to stop people shooting animals, broken windows, dents in cars, etc.

Yes there are laws against these, but it's also revenue for the city because they can also fine the person instead of them just getting a warning from the RCMP.

I certainly don't agree with it.

Sadosubliminal
03-22-2015, 12:18 PM
It's also meant to stop people shooting animals, broken windows, dents in cars, etc.

Yes there are laws against these, but it's also revenue for the city because they can also fine the person instead of them just getting a warning from the RCMP.

I certainly don't agree with it.

I suppose you're right about that. Generating revenue is a reason that laws like this are made, albeit a bad reason. Personally, I think it's legalized robbery and I wish more people disagreed with it. Most people just don't care because it doesn't affect them. Yet.

Trickle Charge
03-22-2015, 12:35 PM
you could also lose your PAL, no?

Drache
03-22-2015, 12:41 PM
you could also lose your PAL, no?

No. Bylaws have nothing to do with Provincial or Federal Laws (unless by breaking a bylaw you also break a provincial/federal law).

TheCenturion
03-22-2015, 01:41 PM
Whenever you find a law, rule, warning, whatever like this, for something that seems so stupid, or so obvious not to do, it's because SOMEBODY DID IT.

Warning on a curling iron that it's for 'external use only?' Guess what somebody tried to do with it. Boiling hot coffee needs a warning that says 'Caution! Contents are Hot! Do not apply to genitals!' Guess what somebody did with it.

Bylaw prohibiting shooting pellet guns? Guess what some idiot kid did? Or some idiot adult?

When the law doesn't say 'You can't build a gun range in your suburban back yard,' you get this:
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/florida-man-built-gun-range-yard-police-article-1.2100861
which then forces them to make such a law.

Sadosubliminal
03-22-2015, 07:39 PM
Whenever you find a law, rule, warning, whatever like this, for something that seems so stupid, or so obvious not to do, it's because SOMEBODY DID IT.

Warning on a curling iron that it's for 'external use only?' Guess what somebody tried to do with it. Boiling hot coffee needs a warning that says 'Caution! Contents are Hot! Do not apply to genitals!' Guess what somebody did with it.

Bylaw prohibiting shooting pellet guns? Guess what some idiot kid did? Or some idiot adult?

When the law doesn't say 'You can't build a gun range in your suburban back yard,' you get this:
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/florida-man-built-gun-range-yard-police-article-1.2100861
which then forces them to make such a law.

Well, there are no laws that state you can't use a curling iron internally. A warning is not a law. And frankly, if someone out there thinks it would be a good idea to use a curling iron internally or to gargle with a cup of lava, I encourage them to try - it will only improve our gene pool. As for gun ranges in suburban back yards, that's a far cry from an 8 year old plinking cans with an airsoft gun and not a fair comparison. I will refrain from repeating the facts about laws that already exist to deal with misuse of airsoft, paintball, and such.

As someone who believes in complete freedom of personal choice and taking responsibility for those choices, I have a hard time accepting your argument. We shouldn't be making redundant, oppressive, blanket laws based on the actions of the lowest common denominator. Yes, sometimes bad things happen that current laws cannot deal with, and in these cases new legislation is necessary to close the gaps. This is not one of those times.

At the risk of being long winded, I will relate a short parable:

Not too long ago, if you wanted enjoy a day on a lake with your boat, all you needed to do was have a 10 dollar fishing license and you were good for the year. Now, I need to make sure I have an outdoors card, a fishing license, a boat operator's license, my boat and trailer paperwork, my boat needs a license number and must be registered, and of course I need my driver's license and insurance, vehicle registration, and God forbid I bring a beer or two on the water with me or they'll seize everything and charge me with a felony (no, I do not advocate getting drunk and operating a vehicle, but not a single drop of alcohol? Am I a child? I can handle a beer or two). This is what we are allowing to happen to our country with laws like these. Soon you will need a stack of licenses and paperwork just to take a walk through the bloody forest. Better not bring a hatchet to cut a walking stick, either, you might frighten the hippies, they'll call 911, and you'll end up tazed.

Ever wonder why some people choose to live far away from the rest of society? Because of 10,000 useless laws regulating every aspect of our lives. If I wasn't married, I'd be on the next chopper to a remote forested area where I can do as I please, when I please.

Gaidheal
03-22-2015, 07:49 PM
^^ you only need a boating license if you are Canadian. Visitors are exempt.

WTF?

TheCenturion
03-23-2015, 09:11 AM
Well, there are no laws that state you can't use a curling iron internally.
No, but they wouldn't have that warning there if they hadn't gotten sued.



As someone who believes in complete freedom of personal choice and taking responsibility for those choices, I have a hard time accepting your argument. We shouldn't be making redundant, oppressive, blanket laws based on the actions of the lowest common denominator. Yes, sometimes bad things happen that current laws cannot deal with, and in these cases new legislation is necessary to close the gaps. This is not one of those times.

Your 'taking responsibility' for accidently wounding somebody while shooting pellets in your back yard still leaves the other person wounded. Your 'taking responsibility' for your kid getting ahold of the pellet gun, taking it out back himself, and doing something bad with it, still leaves that bad thing done. And your 'taking responsibility' for your actions, while laudable, doesn't mean that your next-door neighbor is as virtuous.



Not too long ago, if you wanted enjoy a day on a lake with your boat, all you needed to do was have a 10 dollar fishing license and you were good for the year. Now, I need to make sure I have an outdoors card, a fishing license, a boat operator's license, my boat and trailer paperwork, my boat needs a license number and must be registered, and of course I need my driver's license and insurance, vehicle registration, and God forbid I bring a beer or two on the water with me or they'll seize everything and charge me with a felony (no, I do not advocate getting drunk and operating a vehicle, but not a single drop of alcohol? Am I a child? I can handle a beer or two). This is what we are allowing to happen to our country with laws like these. Soon you will need a stack of licenses and paperwork just to take a walk through the bloody forest. Better not bring a hatchet to cut a walking stick, either, you might frighten the hippies, they'll call 911, and you'll end up tazed.

Then some idiot with a poorly maintained boat he got somewhere, leaking oil all over the place, who has no boating training or experience, decided it would be fun to get tanked up and go do donuts, race as fast as possible up and down a 'residential' river, and generally be an asshole. 'There oughta be a law!' said somebody, and there you go.

A person can be a wonderful human being. People, on average, however, are dicks who will try to get away with what they can. There's a reason there has never been a successful anarchy-based society. Do some rules go overboard? Hell yes. Are many stupid, and fail to fix what they're intended to fix? Hell yes. Can you do something about it? Yes, actually. Figure out how your town does bylaws, and try to get them changed, in this case.

Sadosubliminal
03-23-2015, 10:20 AM
No, but they wouldn't have that warning there if they hadn't gotten sued.

That's an entirely different rant about liability vs. personal responsibility - whether you choose to take responsibility or not - that should be in its own thread.


Your 'taking responsibility' for accidently wounding somebody while shooting pellets in your back yard still leaves the other person wounded. Your 'taking responsibility' for your kid getting ahold of the pellet gun, taking it out back himself, and doing something bad with it, still leaves that bad thing done. And your 'taking responsibility' for your actions, while laudable, doesn't mean that your next-door neighbor is as virtuous.

Once again, personal responsibility does not come with a choice. If you break the law, you are held responsible whether you like it or not. First, let's be clear: a sub 500 FPS air gun is not capable of causing serious wounds with the exception of an eye wound, and that becomes quite unlikely past 7 yards - there simply isn't enough energy in a small plastic BB moving that slowly. A boy throwing a rock or hitting flyballs to his friends presents far more of a risk for injury. Are we treating rocks thrown by hand as a firearm now? Will lawnmowers and baseball bats be subject to safe storage regulations? It's outrageous.

Assault and vandalism laws were always there. If you failed to take the proper precautions and hurt somebody accidentally or you were simply a jerk who thought it was funny to shoot your friends with BBs, you were held responsible and charged accordingly should the parents choose to involve the police. So your unscrupulous neighbour would have been culpable regardless of how virtuous he felt. So tell how the new laws have improved on that model aside from now making it a lot more difficult for a child to responsibly play in his own yard with a nearly harmless airsoft gun. The threat presented by these products did not warrant new legislation. To argue that it was warranted is to argue that any object capable of creating a projectile should be equally subject to that legislation, like your arm or a rubber band or a golf club.


Then some idiot with a poorly maintained boat he got somewhere, leaking oil all over the place, who has no boating training or experience, decided it would be fun to get tanked up and go do donuts, race as fast as possible up and down a 'residential' river, and generally be an asshole. 'There oughta be a law!' said somebody, and there you go.

Once again, you are advocating punishing everyone because of the actions of a couple of morons. It makes more sense to me to throw the book at people who get drunk and operate a boat, car, bike, whatever. And guess what? The laws aren't going to stop someone so inclined. I must remind you that operating a motor vehicle of any kind while intoxicated was already illegal well before they made the laws more strict. Why was it necessary to take it to the next level? Not even my passengers can enjoy a single drink, which is the nanny state at its best. These laws have accomplished nothing but to create red tape and hassle where there doesn't need top be any. As for the condition of said boats, I think you may have the wrong idea about what the licensing accomplishes. No one has ever inspected my boat. It could be an oil-spewing, earth-killing POS and no one would be the wiser (it's not, but you get the idea). The operators card, registration, and licensing are just money grabs, they do nothing to protect the environment or anyone else. Generations of boaters survived just fine without the help of these silly operators cards, the registration, etc, and the training is a joke. You have a couple of hours? You too can get your official card. Wow, such safety.


A person can be a wonderful human being. People, on average, however, are dicks who will try to get away with what they can. There's a reason there has never been a successful anarchy-based society. Do some rules go overboard? Hell yes. Are many stupid, and fail to fix what they're intended to fix? Hell yes. Can you do something about it? Yes, actually. Figure out how your town does bylaws, and try to get them changed, in this case.

Whoa, slow down. Anarchy? Who said anything about that. Personal freedom does not equal anarchy. I advocate for simple, effective rules. Cause and effect. Fewer laws, streamlined and efficient processes. Common sense, clarity, and logic in legislation. No gray area. Raise our children to respect the rights of others, to think critically, and punish those severely who infringe on those rights. We do not need 100,000 regulations to live in peace and civility with each other.

Finally, I do actively work towards improving our laws, as much as any one man can. I write to my MPs and city Councillors, I sign petitions, I seek out dialogue with others who agree so we can speak in a louder voice, and I have attended more than a few town halls. It's mostly like screaming into the wind, but I can say that I have tried.

Much like when the LGR was repealed, many gun owners were thrown into a panic. Long threads were dedicated to people arguing about minimum requirements, due diligence, and what the actual law states. It's funny how we get so used to the cage that when the door is finally opened we are afraid to leave. Which is to say, we got along just fine before our society became such a quagmire of rules and regulations, and too many of us think this is the better way. I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

TL,DR: You say "There oughta be a law"? Well there already was a law or three that could deal with misuse. Blanket bans and restrictions are never the answer, and as gun owners, we should all get that inherently.

Jay
03-23-2015, 10:43 AM
...

Drache
03-23-2015, 11:33 AM
That kid is going to get shot by police, running around like that causing mayhem and destruction.

Could you be any more dramatic? We are talking about a bylaw. Police generally don't get involved in bylaws.

Jay
03-23-2015, 11:51 AM
...

TheCenturion
03-23-2015, 02:13 PM
Sado,

To be clear, I'm not defending or justifying such things, just trying to point out how they came about.



So tell how the new laws have improved on that model aside from now making it a lot more difficult for a child to responsibly play in his own yard with a nearly harmless airsoft gun
From the town's perspective? We're still talking bylaws, I'll assume. From their perspective, they're avoiding having cops called out when somebody sees little Timmy running around with a GUN! They're avoiding being sued by Cayleb's parents when Cayleb gets beaned by an airsoft pellet and it gives him PTSD for life, and also now he can't stand being around packing foam, because he's such a special little snowflake. They're appealing to their loud minority and WON'T SOMEBODY THINK OF THE CHILDREN!

I've got half a mind to look up my town's bylaws on pellet guns, and send council a letter asking them to justify them. I'm kinda curious about what they'd say.

Jay
03-23-2015, 03:26 PM
...

Sadosubliminal
03-23-2015, 05:05 PM
Sado,

To be clear, I'm not defending or justifying such things, just trying to point out how they came about.


From the town's perspective? We're still talking bylaws, I'll assume. From their perspective, they're avoiding having cops called out when somebody sees little Timmy running around with a GUN! They're avoiding being sued by Cayleb's parents when Cayleb gets beaned by an airsoft pellet and it gives him PTSD for life, and also now he can't stand being around packing foam, because he's such a special little snowflake. They're appealing to their loud minority and WON'T SOMEBODY THINK OF THE CHILDREN!

I've got half a mind to look up my town's bylaws on pellet guns, and send council a letter asking them to justify them. I'm kinda curious about what they'd say.

Fair enough, I misunderstood your position. And I too lament the bubble-wrap society we have become. Lol, special snowflakes. Poor kids are in for a rude awakening once they leave the nest.

EDIT: It was not clear in my previous posts, so I would like to clarify that I am speaking of legislation on the municipal level as well as the recent SCC rulings, which have had serious ramifications. For example, people like me who rely on airsoft in film-making now have a minefield of legalities to look out for, whereas before, a simple heads-up to the local PD would have been enough. The potential for legal trouble is great enough now that we may as well fork out the money for a gun wrangler and use real guns. That's a huge chunk of lost production revenue in the low-to-no budget realms of Canadian video and film.