PDA

View Full Version : We Need To Talk



Twiggy
08-01-2015, 09:30 PM
It's clear that the gun community is stereotyped as being some right-wing club, and unfortunately from things I have seen on multiple (Canadian alone) gun forums that stereotype seems to be perpetuated by a lot of us.

Before you go down to the bottom and type "troll" as you are probably thinking of doing, I want to tell you that I sent my PAL application in the mail on Monday and as I said in my intro got 98% on both tests (I see no reason for my application to be denied, so it's a matter of time only). I am one of us, or you (whichever makes more sense).

If we want to make progress and further our cause, which is to get more people to be gun owners and to loosen restrictions or at least make the laws make sense, we need to change the way we are seen, and a big part of that is umm.. not perpetuating stereotypes.

I know a few gun owners who I can tell are not conservatives, one lady at the same course date as I works for social services, another dressed like a hippy and the crowd was very diverse. I think there are a lot of gun owners and aspiring gun owners who have diverse opinions and views, who may not be of any political affiliation, or may be left-wing in their views. Being on any side of the political spectrum, does not mean one has to agree with every single thing associated with that position either.

I honestly think that if this diversity is reflected better in on-line forums, in real life, in the media etc, it will be a great help as it will tear down those stereotypes and help people to see that gun owners are people just like them and each is their own person.

But unfortunately, I see people keep playing "follow the leader" and once someone makes a dissenting comment, they are called trolls, run off forums, and even personally attacked. And then people still wonder why people make offensive and stereotypical statements about gun owners...



In closing, until we change on the inside, don't expect much to change on the outside.

:shoot:

lone-wolf
08-01-2015, 09:39 PM
Yea...

Edenchef
08-01-2015, 10:02 PM
Ok, here it is....... there is only one mainstream party that does not say, that they will take away our guns. If they are brought to power.

kennymo
08-01-2015, 10:06 PM
^^ Pretty much that. I'm not a die hard Conservative but the other two scare the crap out of me, and not just because I'm a firearms owner.....

blacksmithden
08-01-2015, 10:27 PM
First off, everybody is entitled to their opinion. Its as simple as that. Personally, Im as right wing as they come...well...there are a few here who may tie me.....anyway. I view our present government as far too left leaning for my liking. Reality for me is that they are my only option in a vote. Id vote Libertarian in an instant if this wasnt a 3 party country. Maybe Im not the guy you want to parade around as being a center minded gun owner. Lol.

lone-wolf
08-01-2015, 10:33 PM
I used to vote liberal when I got my license in 2007
8 years later and now I've changed into a anarchist capitalist who will vote cpc for lack of a better choice.

As far as newbies showing up, we're pretty forgiving about rookie mistakes and questions relating to the main focus of this forum. Firearms.

Twiggy
08-01-2015, 10:36 PM
For me,

The fact that the present government cut healthcare by $36 billion, snatched $1.3b from Veteran's Affairs, cut OAS by a significant amount, is planing to privatize Canada Post, and much more is all shameful and thus do not have my vote, there's only one party which seeing how the other 2 are now, that I can vote for in good conscience.

lone-wolf
08-01-2015, 10:44 PM
In good conscience, I cannot condone theft and coercion.

RangeBob
08-01-2015, 11:12 PM
The fact that the present government cut healthcare by $36 billion

They didn't.

The provinces, not the federal government, are responsible for Health. (here (http://www.craigmarlatt.com/canada/government/government.html)) While the Federal Liberals portray themselves as the guardians of our national health care system, it was Martin's $25 billion cuts to health care funding when he was finance minister in the early 1990s that led to the crises in the provincial health care systems. Near the end of 2004, Chretien committed the federal government to health care spending using a 6% compounding increment per year for ten years -- and the conservative government since 2006 has been paying that. Now the Conservatives have budgeted for an annual increase of 3% or inflation whichever is greater. So they've been increasing health care payments by 6% every year they've been in office, and they're going to be increasing health care payments by 3% or more from now on.
The difference between 3%+ that the conservatives have agreed to, and the 6% that no one agreed to but the provinces wanted, that the provinces put into 'general income fund' so it might not even actually end up in health care, is the $36 billion that's been falsely plastered all over the televisions for months by the unions.
Unions, which I'll mention are not happy about having their finances made public in 2017, and are trying to get rid of the conservative government so that the NDP will get rid of that legislation that will force them to do so.

A fairly good analysis is at:
http://policyoptions.irpp.org/2014/11/15/the-myth-of-federal-health-care-cuts/


snatched $1.3b from Veteran's Affairs
Which they weren't using.

Veterans Affairs handed back $1.1-billion in unspent funds: documents
-- http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/11-billion-in-unspent-funds-at-veterans-affairs-documents-show/article21665655/

The harper government also closed 9 veterans buildings, moving the employees and paperwork into the 1000+ Service Canada offices. A cost saving measure that delivers improved service. Don't you wish more governments were like that?


cut OAS by a significant amount
The conservatives introduced the largest increase in over 25 years to the Guaranteed Income Supplement, helping improve the financial security of low-income seniors across Canada. The federal government also significantly reduced taxes for seniors with measures like pension income splitting, the increased Age Credit amount, the doubled Pension Income Credit, and more. They've also introduced the Home Accessibility Tax Credit for seniors and persons with disabilities, and enhanced the flexibility of withdrawals from Registered Retirement Income Funds.


is planing to privatize Canada Post
Say what?
Canada Post does hire private contractors to deliver the mail, and have been doing that for 4 decades -- from trucking the mail around, to home delivery.

Rory McCanuck
08-01-2015, 11:17 PM
Once you start to look at politics with a critical rather than emotional mind, one's political stance tends to become more conservative. Pie in the sky ideals are great, but then you learn someone needs to actually pay for it all.

One of the first things when trying to educate yourself politically, don't trust the news.
They're trying to sell you something, an idea, a lifestyle, advertising, or more papers.


present government cut healthcare by $36 billion
Uh, nope. They're increasing healthcare payments.
Lol, went looking for RandeBob's post from another thread on payments, and the search led me to the post above :)

bettercallsaul
08-01-2015, 11:18 PM
For me,

The fact that the present government cut healthcare by $36 billion, snatched $1.3b from Veteran's Affairs, cut OAS by a significant amount, is planing to privatize Canada Post, and much more is all shameful and thus do not have my vote, there's only one party which seeing how the other 2 are now, that I can vote for in good conscience.

Vote Liberal or NDP and you won't be a gun owner for long.

Gun ownership is an exercise in freedom and responsibility, Liberals & NDP believe Canadians are all sheepish wimps.

You won't make friends here coming in and saying you're voting for a party that actively wants to ban & confiscate our property.

blacksmithden
08-01-2015, 11:21 PM
For me,

The fact that the present government cut healthcare by $36 billion, snatched $1.3b from Veteran's Affairs, cut OAS by a significant amount, is planing to privatize Canada Post, and much more is all shameful and thus do not have my vote, there's only one party which seeing how the other 2 are now, that I can vote for in good conscience.

Twiggy...my man.....please don't fall into the trap that the left wing unions, NDP, and Liberals have set for the youth of this country. They count on you not being informed or doing your own research. Their entire base plan relies on you remaining ignorant of the facts, and believing their skewed half version of the truth. Please read Range Bob's post above. Thanks for that RB.

RangeBob
08-01-2015, 11:25 PM
saying you're voting for a party that actively wants to ban & confiscate our property.

The CPC consistently disappoint me, but at least they don't call me a psychopath and try to steal all my sh!t.
Donated $142.68 last night.
-- Hoakster;11553640

Foxer
08-01-2015, 11:40 PM
The fact that the present government cut healthcare by $36 billion, snatched $1.3b from Veteran's Affairs, cut OAS by a significant amount, is planing to privatize Canada Post, and much more is all shameful and thus do not have my vote, there's only one party which seeing how the other 2 are now, that I can vote for in good conscience.

See - here's my problem.

If you want to say "I think we should have more funding for health care and i support a party that will do that", then we can have a discussion about whether or not that's a good idea.

But you started off with something that just plain out and out isn't true. Range bob explained it i believe, and the fact is that health care funding has grown tremendously under the cpc and will now continue to grow at a slower pace, but still above inflation. And that was ALWAYS the CPC's stated plan. Restore funding over time, then reduce the increases to keep pace with inflation or better. That's what they came up with day one - 6 percent for a while, then 3 percent. To be reviewed at the end of that program.

But - somehow the unions claim that's a "cut', just because they didn't offer the provinces 6 percent for the entire plan? That's not a cut. That's a slower rate of increase. it's still an increase, and it's an increase considerably better than inflation after several years of increases which were MUCH better than inflation.

So how do we take you seriously when you start off with something that's not true on the face of it?

Not to mention the fact that say what you like, the libs and dips are committed to taking away our firearms? Even if we did agree with you, it would mean giving up our guns. And we're not cool with that.

When the libs and dips give up this bigoted prejudiced hatred-based attack policy on gun owners and learn to listen to us and respect our rights, then we can have a discussion about other polices. In the meantime - no, we don't need to talk. We need to fight. When you're sick of getting your butts handed to you - then come and talk and we'll talk. But you cannot come here and demand that we respect the views of others who have no respect for our views.

Go change your party's views on us. Then you can come ask for a talk. Until then, if you'll excuse us we've got work to do. It's election time.

RangeBob
08-01-2015, 11:49 PM
But - somehow the unions claim that's a "cut'

We shouldn't imply the unions deserve the credit for making up that lie.
I think they're actually quoting Manitoba Premier Greg Selinger from back in 2012
-- http://www.canada.com/health/Federal+health+cuts+will+total+billion+over+decade +Premiers/7000240/story.html



When the libs and dips give up this bigoted prejudiced hatred-based attack policy on gun owners and learn to listen to us and respect our rights, then we can have a discussion about other polices. In the meantime - no, we don't need to talk. We need to fight. When you're sick of getting your butts handed to you - then come and talk and we'll talk. But you cannot come here and demand that we respect the views of others who have no respect for our views.

Well seriously - they had 15 years to 'fix' it. They didn't want to talk to us - "The debate is over" is what Anne Maclellan had to say.
Now at the 11th hour the Liberals suddenly want to be 'reasonable'?
I'm sorry - but if you cheat on your wife and treat her like dirt for 15 years, then act all surprised and promise to 'change' after she's finally fed up and walking out the door, you really can't be shocked if she doesn't believe you.
And in essence that's what the libs did to us. Lies, confiscations, criminalization, and a complete refusal to listen for 15 years. So now they're all upset we don't want to hear what they've got to say?
They've got to be kidding.
-- Foxer

Foxer
08-01-2015, 11:58 PM
We shouldn't imply the unions deserve the credit for making up that lie.
They're actually quoting Manitoba Premier Greg Selinger from back in 2012
-- http://www.canada.com/health/Federal...240/story.htmlWell they're sure the ones repeating it now :) It's like if your boss gives you a 6 percent raise for 3 years, then when your contract is up he says "well, we can afford to keep doing that for 5 years, then we're going to give you a 3 percent raise moving forward. And when that deal is over we'll talk again" - you wouldn't walk out and say the boss 'cut your salary', you'd say your increases are going to slow down 5 years from now.


Well seriously - they had 15 years to 'fix' it. They didn't want to talk to us - "The debate is over" is what Anne Maclellan had to say.
Now at the 11th hour the Liberals suddenly want to be 'reasonable'?
I'm sorry - but if you cheat on your wife and treat her like dirt for 15 years, then act all surprised and promise to 'change' after she's finally fed up and walking out the door, you really can't be shocked if she doesn't believe you.
And in essence that's what the libs did to us. Lies, confiscations, criminalization, and a complete refusal to listen for 15 years. So now they're all upset we don't want to hear what they've got to say?
They've got to be kidding.
-- Foxer

How do you even remember that stuff :) I don't even remember saying that, but it does sound like me :)

RangeBob
08-02-2015, 12:07 AM
How do you even remember that stuff

That particular one I remember really well. I laughed so hard the first time I read it I nearly did myself an injury.

This one, I'd forgotten


First off - under liberal gov'ts we racked up the largest debt at the highest interest rates in our history (per-capita in adjusted dollars). Trudeau's little debt rampage at a time when we were experiencing GOOD economic conditions set us up for a deficit at insane interest rates that almost flattened us as a country.
The next guy to take a 'crack' at it was Chretien. And let's look at his 'balanced books'. First - the two major economic factors that improved our situation (other than a world wide reduction of interest rates that they had nothing to do with) was the GST and the Free Trade agreement with the Americans (Which increased our trade surplus by a factor of ten.) BOTH of which the liberals campaigned on wiping out, and BOTH of which they kept.
For the remainder - they transferred most of their remaining costs to the provinces. the medical payments for example were 50 50 in Trudeau's day - but only 15 percent of the bill was covered by the time Chretien was done.
Anyone can 'balance' their books by taking their bills and handing them to someone else and saying 'Here - you pay it' In fact all they did was transfer the debts to the provinces, which means we were still going into debt we just did it with a different gov't. How is that better? There's still only one taxpayer.
1980's they gutted the defence department, and still had a deficit.
-- Foxer


http://www.rangebob.com/election2011/CanadianDeficitSurplus.png

Mil Specs
08-02-2015, 12:36 AM
It's clear that the gun community is stereotyped as being some right-wing club, and unfortunately from things I have seen on multiple (Canadian alone) gun forums that stereotype seems to be perpetuated by a lot of us.

Before you go down to the bottom and type "troll" as you are probably thinking of doing, I want to tell you that I sent my PAL application in the mail on Monday and as I said in my intro got 98% on both tests (I see no reason for my application to be denied, so it's a matter of time only). I am one of us, or you (whichever makes more sense).

If we want to make progress and further our cause, which is to get more people to be gun owners and to loosen restrictions or at least make the laws make sense, we need to change the way we are seen, and a big part of that is umm.. not perpetuating stereotypes.

I know a few gun owners who I can tell are not conservatives, one lady at the same course date as I works for social services, another dressed like a hippy and the crowd was very diverse. I think there are a lot of gun owners and aspiring gun owners who have diverse opinions and views, who may not be of any political affiliation, or may be left-wing in their views. Being on any side of the political spectrum, does not mean one has to agree with every single thing associated with that position either.

I honestly think that if this diversity is reflected better in on-line forums, in real life, in the media etc, it will be a great help as it will tear down those stereotypes and help people to see that gun owners are people just like them and each is their own person.

But unfortunately, I see people keep playing "follow the leader" and once someone makes a dissenting comment, they are called trolls, run off forums, and even personally attacked. And then people still wonder why people make offensive and stereotypical statements about gun owners...



In closing, until we change on the inside, don't expect much to change on the outside.

:shoot:

Good points and quite relevant as a new shooter / new to gun culture . But just like the over quoted line from some movie the first rule of fight club is ,don't talk about fight club ... This seems to be the motto of many of the gun owners I know about their chosen past time /hobby .One of our local papers would not even cover our local Jr. shooters in the provincials it is such a taboo subject . The exception to this first rule is the "right wing" we don't want you libtards getting in the way of our hobby types . Personally I agree with a lot of your post but the NDP and the Liberals have made themselves very clear on Guns in the hands of the law abiding and so on this issue I sway to the right , It is not my only concern when voting but it sure makes one wary when for the sole reason of owning a lawful item a political party considers a person a bigger threat to public safety than an actual criminal .

kennymo
08-02-2015, 03:02 AM
For me,

The fact that the present government cut healthcare by $36 billion, snatched $1.3b from Veteran's Affairs, cut OAS by a significant amount, is planing to privatize Canada Post, and much more is all shameful and thus do not have my vote, there's only one party which seeing how the other 2 are now, that I can vote for in good conscience.

Every last item on your list is an outright lie or half truth. The media in this country seems to be hugely biased to the left, possibly led by the Conservative idea that the CBC's job isn't to lose billions of dollars every year, and the union bosses are running scared of Bill C-377 which is going to force them to show their members exactly what they have been spending their hard earned dues on. Lotsa hate. No talk of how the Liberals stole billions out government pensions or the 400 million dollars unaccounted for the last time they were in power. Or the 4 million the NDP currently owes the taxpayer. Nope, Mike Duffy has $90,000 in wonky bills (which has been repayed), and is facing a trial for his misdeeds and it's the end of the freakin' world.

And after following C-42 and C-51 through parliament relatively closely, listening to the massive volume of outright lies spewed about both bills from both the NDP and Liberals, I don't trust either party as far as I could chuck their respective leaders.... I'm a pretty big guy, I could probably toss Trudeau a tad further than Mulcair, but not enough to matter.....

Doug_M
08-02-2015, 04:31 AM
The fact is Twiggy most gun owners are a-political. That is even true on these forums. With the two AGM's for the NFA and CSSA recently it was revealed that between the those orgs there are only 40,000 members. That's just 2% of PAL holders. I don't know the percentage of GOC or CGN that are active on the political threads, it is probably higher than 2% but still a minority of the overall board membership.

My point being, the bulk of gun owners out there in "real life" that you will run across are a-political (talking "gun politics") and come from all backgrounds. It is painfully obvious to me when I talk to them. I don't push my politics on them (unless they say something incorrect first that I can't ignore) just as I don't with anyone else in any situation.

As others have stated, there is only one party that doesn't aim to ban all or some guns and that is the CPC. Hence when in a political discussion online you will be told so if you mention Libs or NDP. That and while all politicians lie or "stretch the truth", the left and their supporting media would win a gold medal for some of the whoppers they tell. Like that healthcare cut RB mentioned. That is an outright fabrication. Oops, I'm starting to talk politics now. But you started it... :eek1:

Steveo9mm
08-02-2015, 05:19 AM
ok, vote conservative. or its australia for us. simple? no? dont start whining when the banners start banning everything they can ban because they dont like it.

Gaidheal
08-02-2015, 06:56 AM
I think a more effective strategy is the re-normalization of guns.

We need them back on the shelves of hardware stores. Not knocking gun shops - LOVE them, but only gun people go there.

There needs to be more exposure so that the back-of-the-brain processes of the masses start to to "get it" that guns themselves aren't the problem. They aren't even A problem. No kittens will spontaneously combust if there are guns on teh shelves at Walmart, in the windows of trucks, etc

TJSpeller
08-02-2015, 07:05 AM
For me,

The fact that the present government cut healthcare by $36 billion, ....

That is patently false, straight from Rabble.ca.

edit: NM. I need to learn to read entire threads before commenting... you'd think I'd know that by now. Anyway... what you all said.

Sad to believe that possibly intelligent members of the gun owner community are brainwashed so easily. But they are doing it the media and in the schools every day.

Haywire1
08-02-2015, 07:23 AM
Also, and I really am not bashing here, conservative voters do tend to research claims made by political parties more than liberals or dippers and are less willing to take things at face value for the most part in my experience.

Swampdonkey
08-02-2015, 07:41 AM
Guns are the more liberal of my political views.

I'd love to turn back the clock to pre-WW1 times.

Twiggy
08-02-2015, 09:51 AM
Ok so the healthcare thing isn't entirely true? Where do I go for true news these days? It seems most media stations either have a left or right bias and there's hardly any "true news" out there.

Please forgive my naivete, I'm only 20 and I also have autism (doesn't have anything to do with my intelligence per say, but more with social relatedness and communication and functioning in areas such as those).

I do though politically believe that government should be there to help regular people and not corporations and such, so when I hear things like corporate tax breaks or appointing industry representatives to different government councils, I get a little worked up.

Does anyone know a good unbiased news channel or website where I can get accurate news from? Sun media or Fox News as well as MSNBC and such obviously do not count, although I work for Sun Media to gather some extra income on top of my ODSP at the moment.

Thanks for not attacking me as has so often happened in other places.

kennymo
08-02-2015, 09:56 AM
The Rebel might give you a different viewpoint, but hardly unbiased.... Best thing I've found is to read both sides and form your own opinion, maybe look up a few figures on your own for good measure...

Foxer
08-02-2015, 10:20 AM
Ok so the healthcare thing isn't entirely true? Where do I go for true news these days? It seems most media stations either have a left or right bias and there's hardly any "true news" out there.

It's hard - you have to get into the habit of looking up some of the raw data yourself. I don't know of any news agencies that are bias-free and even if they are, these days they're so pressured to turn out stories fast they don't often double check their facts. I've been involved in several news stories where i know the details, and i've NEVER seen a news story get a single one I know about correct without some errors.

SO you have to dig a bit - which is actually quite easy with the web.


Please forgive my naivete, I'm only 20 and I also have autism (doesn't have anything to do with my intelligence per say, but more with social relatedness and communication and functioning in areas such as those).

It's all good. I'm a bit of a 'neuroatypical' myself.


I do though politically believe that government should be there to help regular people and not corporations and such, so when I hear things like corporate tax breaks or appointing industry representatives to different government councils, I get a little worked up. There's nothing really wrong with that in and of itself. But to get to the bottom of things you have to do a bit of research. For example - some corporate 'tax breaks' are bad. But - what about ones that convince american companies to relocate to canada and create jobs here? We just saw a major american company do that - and the americans are PISSED. There's also industries like the movie industry which employes 10's of thousands of people here, and can only do so if they get breaks. We get the additional tax revenue from all those employed people, isn't that worth it to cut them a deal on their corporate taxes?

now some businesses don't need that - you have to look at what's happening.

Few things are black and white, and understanding them means you have to get past other peoples 'interpretations' and get to the raw data yourself and make your own decisions.


Thanks for not attacking me as has so often happened in other places.

No problem, you b*stard. OH - goddamit, i was trying so hard..... :) :)

lone-wolf
08-02-2015, 10:23 AM
ok, vote conservative. or its australia for us. simple? no?

Australians rolled over.
We basically did too.

I'm not sure next time will result in non-violent compliance. At the very least, non-violent noncompliance.
And then what the government does next, could make things very bad.

wolver
08-02-2015, 10:26 AM
If you don't vote Conservative, you're against gun ownership. Plain and simple.

Rory McCanuck
08-02-2015, 10:27 AM
Ok so the healthcare thing isn't entirely true? Where do I go for true news these days? It seems most media stations either have a left or right bias and there's hardly any "true news" out there.

Please forgive my naivete, I'm only 20 and I also have autism (doesn't have anything to do with my intelligence per say, but more with social relatedness and communication and functioning in areas such as those).

I do though politically believe that government should be there to help regular people and not corporations and such, so when I hear things like corporate tax breaks or appointing industry representatives to different government councils, I get a little worked up.

Does anyone know a good unbiased news channel or website where I can get accurate news from? Sun media or Fox News as well as MSNBC and such obviously do not count, although I work for Sun Media to gather some extra income on top of my ODSP at the moment.

Thanks for not attacking me as has so often happened in other places.

SunNews TV Network was wonderful, but they had a rough go of it, because the Left leaning media companies wouldn't carry them on cable or satellite. Once SunNews went down, a few of them decided to band together and start their own outlet, http://www.therebel.media/
Sun and Rebel are right leaning/conservative, but they tend to be more objective.
Fox news out of the U.S. is another option. They tend to be a bit dramatic, but it is a nice counter balance to all the lefty media.

I think you'd find that most people here are closer to the centre of the political spectrum.
Social programmes are good, but government should be as small as it possibly can be and still function.
Most of us sit in the middle, but if pushed will fall to the right side.

Sorry if a couple of the earlier replies did come off as a bit of an attack, but the gun community has been treated as second class citizens for quite some time. We tend to be a bit defensive when people come around promoting political parties that want to take away all our toys.

Mobusten
08-02-2015, 10:30 AM
I don't have time to read all these post right now, but I do agree with twiggy in that we DO put out a certain right wing vibe here, and everyone who disagrees is a "libtard" or a dirty commie. I think if (over time) the left parties realize that being a gun owner doesn't necessarily mean being a right winger, and they realize they could steal some votes, they might change their tune and we wouldn't have to be backed into a corner with only one party as an option. At least in terms of keeping our firearms.

I don't see it happening any time soon, but widening the divide bigger than it is with all the rhetoric, I don't think is in our best interest in the long run.

Twiggy
08-02-2015, 10:56 AM
SunNews TV Network was wonderful, but they had a rough go of it, because the Left leaning media companies wouldn't carry them on cable or satellite. Once SunNews went down, a few of them decided to band together and start their own outlet, http://www.therebel.media/
Sun and Rebel are right leaning/conservative, but they tend to be more objective.
Fox news out of the U.S. is another option. They tend to be a bit dramatic, but it is a nice counter balance to all the lefty media.

I think you'd find that most people here are closer to the centre of the political spectrum.
Social programmes are good, but government should be as small as it possibly can be and still function.
Most of us sit in the middle, but if pushed will fall to the right side.

Sorry if a couple of the earlier replies did come off as a bit of an attack, but the gun community has been treated as second class citizens for quite some time. We tend to be a bit defensive when people come around promoting political parties that want to take away all our toys.


As far as social programs go, I think the system needs to be cleaned up, I am on one as I already stated at the moment but for an understandable legitimate reason. Unfortunately, there are those that lie about themselves, or where they live etc to milk the system and take things which are not meant for them. I think people like that need to be cracked down on, 1 because it is a waste of money meant for people with a legitimate need, and 2 because it makes the legitimate people look bad because of the actions of a few bad applies, kind of how gangsters and mass shooters make gun owners look bad.

I watched a bit of Sun before the shut-down, didn't agree with everything but I liked a lot. I'm still pro-gay, atheist, anti-theist, pro-choice and secularist though - things they don't like. :p

Twiggy
08-02-2015, 11:03 AM
I don't have time to read all these post right now, but I do agree with twiggy in that we DO put out a certain right wing vibe here, and everyone who disagrees is a "libtard" or a dirty commie. I think if (over time) the left parties realize that being a gun owner doesn't necessarily mean being a right winger, and they realize they could steal some votes, they might change their tune and we wouldn't have to be backed into a corner with only one party as an option. At least in terms of keeping our firearms.

I don't see it happening any time soon, but widening the divide bigger than it is with all the rhetoric, I don't think is in our best interest in the long run.

I think most people got it, but yes, you made a good summary of my point.

kennymo
08-02-2015, 11:06 AM
I watched a bit of Sun before the shut-down, didn't agree with everything but I liked a lot. I'm still pro-gay, atheist, anti-theist, pro-choice and secularist though - things they don't like.

I see sentiments like this brought up often, and I think it must stem from the leftist media's tendency to focus in on right wing pieces of #### and present them as our representatives. I'm not against gays, not religious, and pretty much believe anyone should be able to do whatever the hell they please so long as it doesn't harm others or infringe on their freedom. And almost all of the 'right wingers' I know are the same. Conservatism is often a financial choice, not religious, or racist or whatever the hell else we get portrayed as on the news....

The left has plenty of bigots, racists and religious extremists on their side, they just don't want to talk about it...

lone-wolf
08-02-2015, 11:14 AM
I'm still pro-gay, atheist, anti-theist, pro-choice and secularist though - things they don't like. :p

I think kenny hit a nail. The media puts us done, and now minding your own business is supposed to be a liberal position? Yea... Until it's firearms then the prochoice becomes no-choice, the atheist worships the state, and the secularist doesn't mind pushing their own views of what's moral or not by using the government.

Twiggy
08-02-2015, 11:27 AM
I see sentiments like this brought up often, and I think it must stem from the leftist media's tendency to focus in on right wing pieces of #### and present them as our representatives. I'm not against gays, not religious, and pretty much believe anyone should be able to do whatever the hell they please so long as it doesn't harm others or infringe on their freedom. And almost all of the 'right wingers' I know are the same. Conservatism is often a financial choice, not religious, or racist or whatever the hell else we get portrayed as on the news....

The left has plenty of bigots, racists and religious extremists on their side, they just don't want to talk about it...

True somewhat. I'm starting to see that not all "righties" are like what they are meant out to be. Heck one even defended me when some others found out I was on assistance at the moment and others started making fun of me. Said, I'm doing nothing wrong, I'm one of the people it's meant for and that unfortunately the bad apples make the good people look bad because people like to paint with a broad brush. I was surprised to see someone who identifies as a right-winger become defend me and befriend me, it was surprising and opened my eyes a bit. But he also has autistic people in his larger family so it maybe hit home for him too, none the less still very surprising for me at that moment.

kennymo
08-02-2015, 11:43 AM
Stolen from YLYL thread:

http://i1328.photobucket.com/albums/w534/kennymo81/Mobile%20Uploads/05996F53-14AF-4C77-90CA-39076187A56C_zpsz01zckjb.jpg (http://s1328.photobucket.com/user/kennymo81/media/Mobile%20Uploads/05996F53-14AF-4C77-90CA-39076187A56C_zpsz01zckjb.jpg.html)

Makes me giggle, not to say there aren't a few of them on the right side either.....

FALover
08-02-2015, 01:04 PM
For me,

The fact that the present government cut healthcare by $36 billion, snatched $1.3b from Veteran's Affairs, cut OAS by a significant amount, is planing to privatize Canada Post, and much more is all shameful and thus do not have my vote, there's only one party which seeing how the other 2 are now, that I can vote for in good conscience.


If I recall reading correctly ( and I can read) the 2015 budget indicates an increase in the transfer payments for healthcare.http://www.budget.gc.ca/2015/docs/plan/ch1-eng.html

The budget also says that ''Taking Action for Veterans

Introducing a new Retirement Income Security Benefit to provide additional financial security after the age of 65 for moderately to severely disabled veterans.
Expanding access to the Permanent Impairment Allowance to help compensate disabled veterans for the loss of career opportunities associated with their disabilities.
Modifying the Earnings Loss Benefit to ensure that part-time Reserve Force veterans have access to the same level of income support as Regular and full-time Reserve Force veterans.
Creating a new tax-free Family Caregiver Relief Benefit to recognize the vital contributions of informal caregivers to the health and well-being of veterans.
Increasing the level of individualized care to veterans requiring regular support by improving the ratio of veterans to case managers. "

What are the "significant cuts" to the OAS that you speak of? Have you noticed a difference in your cheque?

As for Canada Post. Rates are to high for service that is to slow. Most of any articles I have searched for regarding privatization are stories written by union hacks and third rate internet 'news' sources.

Vote how you wish but as for myself my financial well being has been stable under the Harper conservatives. The provincial Wynne liberals are what fuque me over and if Trudeau is as 'liberal' as Wynne I wish no part of that hell on earth. Mulcairs dips would be far worse for myself and my children's future. A country of equal, maybe working, poor folks. (except for the socialist leaders)

Twiggy
08-02-2015, 02:57 PM
If I recall reading correctly ( and I can read) the 2015 budget indicates an increase in the transfer payments for healthcare.http://www.budget.gc.ca/2015/docs/plan/ch1-eng.html

The budget also says that ''Taking Action for Veterans

Introducing a new Retirement Income Security Benefit to provide additional financial security after the age of 65 for moderately to severely disabled veterans.
Expanding access to the Permanent Impairment Allowance to help compensate disabled veterans for the loss of career opportunities associated with their disabilities.
Modifying the Earnings Loss Benefit to ensure that part-time Reserve Force veterans have access to the same level of income support as Regular and full-time Reserve Force veterans.
Creating a new tax-free Family Caregiver Relief Benefit to recognize the vital contributions of informal caregivers to the health and well-being of veterans.
Increasing the level of individualized care to veterans requiring regular support by improving the ratio of veterans to case managers. "

What are the "significant cuts" to the OAS that you speak of? Have you noticed a difference in your cheque?

As for Canada Post. Rates are to high for service that is to slow. Most of any articles I have searched for regarding privatization are stories written by union hacks and third rate internet 'news' sources.

Vote how you wish but as for myself my financial well being has been stable under the Harper conservatives. The provincial Wynne liberals are what fuque me over and if Trudeau is as 'liberal' as Wynne I wish no part of that hell on earth. Mulcairs dips would be far worse for myself and my children's future. A country of equal, maybe working, poor folks. (except for the socialist leaders)

I don't get an OAS cheque (so I wouldn't know, just going by what I was told a thousand times), I'm 20, I get an ODSP (ontario disability support program) cheque at the moment as I already stated, and yes I am wrong and need to learn more, I admit that.

I do not like Wynne either with her gas plant scandals, privatizing hydro one, making a new social assistance computer system that costed $250mil that was bugged and releasing it without fixing, luckily I didn't sign up for the computer system or else I may have ended up with a accidental letter of termination or a $1 cheque because of the bugs. Not to mention her new beer tax, I like selling it in grocery stores but if there's a new tax on it, maybe it's best to just keep the LCBO and Beer Store monopoly...

Foxer
08-02-2015, 03:28 PM
I don't get an OAS cheque, I'm 20, I get an ODSP (ontario disability support program) cheque at the moment as I already stated, and yes I am wrong and need to learn more, I admit that.
Don't sweat being wrong - it's nature's way of teaching you things and if you're going to be wrong, 20 is pretty much the age you want to be wrong at. :) :) we ALL were wrong (usually passionately) when we were twenty. Except rangebob. He's kind of the exception. And strewth, but his only thoguht at the time was 'bacon is good' so he was kind of playing the odds. The rest of us were frequently wrong.

The important thing is to learn to be a critical thinker. When you hear something, you need to learn to turn it over in your mind and figure out how to verify it. Look at the numbers and info for yourself and look for the flaws in the argument. Sure - the CPC have had less growth of the economy than others - but when you look into it that's because they also had the worst world wide recession in 80 years to deal with - the last one being the 'great' depression. And you'll note they did better than every other gov't on the planet pretty much, many countries were all but wiped out and we did MUCH better than the US and such - and there's specific things harper did which made a big difference. So - is it really fair to say he did 'badly'? Or that he did better than anyone else did and likely would have? Not to mention that most of those budgets were done during a minority which means the other parties went along with it, so them claiming that it's all 'his fault' is a little shakey to begin with. Now - that doesn't mean you should like him or that there isn't a BETTER way, but at least you're now looking at the facts from an honest point of view when you make your own conclusions.

And that's for pretty much everything you hear, you have to look and dig and come to your own conclusions. It takes practice - but it's a skill that will serve you a lifetime.

wolver
08-02-2015, 03:37 PM
Not to mention her new beer tax, I like selling it in grocery stores but if there's a new tax on it, maybe it's best to just keep the LCBO and Beer Store monopoly...

Gov't will get all their taxes, whether it be sold at a mom and pop store, grocery store, or a gov't outlet.

Twiggy
08-02-2015, 03:39 PM
Don't sweat being wrong - it's nature's way of teaching you things and if you're going to be wrong, 20 is pretty much the age you want to be wrong at. :) :) we ALL were wrong (usually passionately) when we were twenty. Except rangebob. He's kind of the exception. And strewth, but his only thoguht at the time was 'bacon is good' so he was kind of playing the odds. The rest of us were frequently wrong.

The important thing is to learn to be a critical thinker. When you hear something, you need to learn to turn it over in your mind and figure out how to verify it. Look at the numbers and info for yourself and look for the flaws in the argument. Sure - the CPC have had less growth of the economy than others - but when you look into it that's because they also had the worst world wide recession in 80 years to deal with - the last one being the 'great' depression. And you'll note they did better than every other gov't on the planet pretty much, many countries were all but wiped out and we did MUCH better than the US and such - and there's specific things harper did which made a big difference. So - is it really fair to say he did 'badly'? Or that he did better than anyone else did and likely would have? Not to mention that most of those budgets were done during a minority which means the other parties went along with it, so them claiming that it's all 'his fault' is a little shakey to begin with. Now - that doesn't mean you should like him or that there isn't a BETTER way, but at least you're now looking at the facts from an honest point of view when you make your own conclusions.

And that's for pretty much everything you hear, you have to look and dig and come to your own conclusions. It takes practice - but it's a skill that will serve you a lifetime.

That's a good post man.

Twiggy
08-02-2015, 03:42 PM
Gov't will get all their taxes, whether it be sold at a mom and pop store, grocery store, or a gov't outlet.

That's true. They gov (fed) even goes after people who buy native smokes. I don't see what's wrong with buying smokes from natives, they made a product and you are paying them what they ask for it. It's not like alcohol where if it's done wrong can make someone very ill or even kill them (I understand alcohol regulations).

kennymo
08-02-2015, 03:50 PM
That's true. They gov (fed) even goes after people who buy native smokes. I don't see what's wrong with buying smokes from natives, they made a product and you are paying them what they ask for it. It's not like alcohol where if it's done wrong can make someone very ill or even kill them (I understand alcohol regulations).

There's an article about this on The Rebel today, by coincidence...

Twiggy
08-02-2015, 04:14 PM
I rather like Micheal Coran, he used to be on Sun News. I especially like how himself being a christian calls out other christians and also is not afraid to call out the people on the right who are indeed mindless and mean and cruel and making stuff up. Like, watch this:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYYv3os2w2M

My favourite couple quotes of his are:

"It is not the liberals who are obsessed with sex, but the conservative christian right".

and

*about the protest he was at* "It was an attack on Kathlyne Wynne and her sexuality".

Rory McCanuck
08-02-2015, 04:19 PM
Don't sweat being wrong - it's nature's way of teaching you things and if you're going to be wrong, 20 is pretty much the age you want to be wrong at. :) :) we ALL were wrong (usually passionately) when we were twenty. .
Speak for yourelf man. Not me, I was f***ing brilliant at 20.
I wish I now knew half of what I knew at 20 ;)

But for the rest of it, yes, great post.

Doug_M
08-02-2015, 04:58 PM
I'm still pro-gay, atheist, anti-theist, pro-choice and secularist though - things they don't like. :p

I consider myself right-wing and the above describes me too. Also, as others have pointed out, http://therebel.media is quite good. Yes they are conservative/right-wing but they fact check AND they show you the sources they use to do the fact checking. Brian Lilley is particularly good about that. I'd also argue that they are also quite secularist but do point out hypocrisy in the treatment of Christians. Though I agree for the most part they are not pro-choice. Me, I think that issue is anything but black and white, but for some on either side it is very black and white. Anyway, if you see some big claim against the Conservatives in an article or ad, check The Rebel for the fact checking!

Twiggy
08-02-2015, 06:44 PM
I consider myself right-wing and the above describes me too. Also, as others have pointed out, http://therebel.media is quite good. Yes they are conservative/right-wing but they fact check AND they show you the sources they use to do the fact checking. Brian Lilley is particularly good about that. I'd also argue that they are also quite secularist but do point out hypocrisy in the treatment of Christians. Though I agree for the most part they are not pro-choice. Me, I think that issue is anything but black and white, but for some on either side it is very black and white. Anyway, if you see some big claim against the Conservatives in an article or ad, check The Rebel for the fact checking!

Abortion wise, I don't like the idea of terminating a pregnancy, but I also feel that the women has the right to do it since it is her own body.

3MTA3
08-02-2015, 06:48 PM
I rather like Micheal Coran, he used to be on Sun News. I especially like how himself being a christian calls out other christians and also is not afraid to call out the people on the right who are indeed mindless and mean and cruel and making stuff up.
My favourite couple quotes of his are:

"It is not the liberals who are obsessed with sex, but the conservative christian right".

and

*about the protest he was at* "It was an attack on Kathlyne Wynne and her sexuality".

http://www.torontosun.com/2015/03/02/liberals-cant-deny-levins-role-with-sex-ed-curriculum
http://www.therebel.media/exclusive_confidential_e_mails_show_pedophile_ben_ levin_was_a_trusted_friend_and_advisor_to_ontario_ s_ministry_of_education_until_the_moment_he_was_ar rested_in_2013

C1.5,p198-"The Ontario Curriculum Grades 1-8'

harbl_the_cat
08-02-2015, 06:51 PM
I think it's best to be a-political.

I'll vote Conservative because I think the rich deserve more tax breaks since they provide the most efficient form of social welfare: employment to others. The Tories are the least in opposition to that notion of the mainstream parties.

Other than that, I don't like to call myself "conservative," I am an individual.

kennymo
08-02-2015, 06:59 PM
I think it's best to be a-political.

I'll vote Conservative because I think the rich deserve more tax breaks since they provide the most efficient form of social welfare: employment to others. The Tories are the least in opposition to that notion of the mainstream parties.

Other than that, I don't like to call myself "conservative," I am an individual.

Short, to the point and easily agreed to. What the hell have you done with Harbl?

harbl_the_cat
08-02-2015, 07:07 PM
Short, to the point and easily agreed to. What the hell have you done with Harbl?

Everyone always complained I was to verbose... I've been working on it :P

LB303
08-02-2015, 07:07 PM
https://mooselicker.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/enhanced-buzz-22200-1286995714-22.jpg

I like this thread!

lone-wolf
08-02-2015, 07:12 PM
I think it's best to be a-political.

Probably the best option for the blood pressure

3MTA3
08-02-2015, 07:13 PM
I think it's best to be a-political.

I'll vote Conservative because I think the rich deserve more tax breaks since they provide the most efficient form of social welfare: employment to others. The Tories are the least in opposition to that notion of the mainstream parties.

Other than that, I don't like to call myself "conservative," I am an individual.
Maybe the poor should just be paid in bread and water

Twiggy
08-02-2015, 07:19 PM
Corporations also cut jobs in favour of profit often though, I don't entirely trust corporations. Heck, I have applied for jobs and only got a call back from Walmart for a phone interview over 2 months ago and nothing. It was an entry level over-night stocking position too not like it takes great skill lol.

Plus in the states Walmart pays it's workers so low that most of their employees need subsidized housing, Medicare, and food stamps. Corporations are not a godsend, some like the one I just mentioned rely on the government to subsidize low wages. Not that I'm against helping people, I'm not, but I think working people should at least be paid a fair wage. Heck, all I have at the moment is a disability cheque totalling $1,100 CAD (if you round up just a tad) and I probably have more money than most american Walmart employees. Funny.

The main purpose of corporations is to make profit, I doubt they give a crap about employing people, for the most part.

lone-wolf
08-02-2015, 07:35 PM
I think working people should at least be paid a fair wage.
A fair wage is what you and your employer agree upon.
If I was a small shop, I was paying min. wage to two employees.
Government comes along and says I have to pay my employees 50% more each.
I am already not banking much, I have to let one of them go.

It's better to be getting paid what you and your employer agree to, then to have government step in and cost you a job.

Option 2, keep both employees, have the police arrest you for not following the in wage law. How is that right/justice/fair?


Corporations are not a god send, but they can't throw you in jail for voluntary trade of goods and services like the government can.

Foxer
08-02-2015, 07:57 PM
The main purpose of corporations is to make profit, I doubt they give a crap about employing people, for the most part.

Well as you say - thats' the goal of corporations. Which means if you want them to pay you good money, you have to bring a skillset that actually produces them more money than you get paid in order to make it worth it for them to keep you. And that battle goes back and forth of course. :)

If you really want to get paid what you're worth, go into sales. Strong sales skills are valuable to just about everyone, corporations and smaller orgs alike. Sales is the one area nobody can dispute what you're worth. You bring in x, you keep x percent of x, nobody can say you're not worth that. And as your skills improve you can move into sales for things that make you more money. I know a lot of people who do very well selling cars and their customers love them, my dad made a fortune as a real estate sales person and developer for commercial properties and his customers couldn't say enough about him, and never complained once that I heard about the money HE made because they all did very well also.

If you're going to develop a skill that you intend to market - make sure it's a skill that will be in demand and that people will pay appropriately for. Because yes - corporations will try to get the lowest dollar for you they can, and you want to make sure they want your skills bad enough to pay a good going rate for them.

kennymo
08-02-2015, 08:09 PM
Interesting points on corporations and government benefits down South. I read an interesting bit on Seattle increasing minimum wage within the city ($15 an hour, familiar Alberta?), seems it has led some minimum wage earners to demand being cut back to part time because they no longer qualify for those benefits and wound up worse off than before.

Twiggy
08-02-2015, 08:16 PM
Well as you say - thats' the goal of corporations. Which means if you want them to pay you good money, you have to bring a skillset that actually produces them more money than you get paid in order to make it worth it for them to keep you. And that battle goes back and forth of course. :)

If you really want to get paid what you're worth, go into sales. Strong sales skills are valuable to just about everyone, corporations and smaller orgs alike. Sales is the one area nobody can dispute what you're worth. You bring in x, you keep x percent of x, nobody can say you're not worth that. And as your skills improve you can move into sales for things that make you more money. I know a lot of people who do very well selling cars and their customers love them, my dad made a fortune as a real estate sales person and developer for commercial properties and his customers couldn't say enough about him, and never complained once that I heard about the money HE made because they all did very well also.

If you're going to develop a skill that you intend to market - make sure it's a skill that will be in demand and that people will pay appropriately for. Because yes - corporations will try to get the lowest dollar for you they can, and you want to make sure they want your skills bad enough to pay a good going rate for them.

True,

I tried to go into IT, but that crashed and burned. Now it's time to rethink my life, but I also must keep in mind my functioning issues in different areas which may affect how well I perform different types of jobs and such. Right now it's in-between trucker or rail road worker. I should be meeting with people from the employment support portion of ODSP to talk about things like that soon and hopefully I can soon find an understanding employer and start some work history.

Twiggy
08-02-2015, 08:20 PM
Interesting points on corporations and government benefits down South. I read an interesting bit on Seattle increasing minimum wage within the city ($15 an hour, familiar Alberta?), seems it has led some minimum wage earners to demand being cut back to part time because they no longer qualify for those benefits and wound up worse off than before.

Interesting, well, at least here we have universal healthcare and even with a min wage of $15 I think you can find a fair bachelor apartment that's affordable, or a basement apartment like mine.

Foxer
08-02-2015, 08:23 PM
True,

I tried to go into IT, but that crashed and burned. Now it's time to rethink my life, but I also must keep in mind my functioning issues in different areas which may affect how well I perform different types of jobs and such. Right now it's in-between trucker or rail road worker. I should be meeting with people from the employment support portion of ODSP to talk about things like that soon and hopefully I can soon find an understanding employer and start some work history.
Oh you'll do fine. Just keep at it and stay focused and you'll get where you're going, the tough part is finding what really fits you. One thing you will find in life is that if you're on the RIGHT path, the obstacles will tend to vanish when you get to them. So focus on finding the right path and don't worry about the 'problems' with it, and you'll find solutions as you go, guaranteed.

I know a lot of high function autistics do very well in financial occupations, might want to give that a thought. Mortgage stuff or accounting.

Cryptix
08-02-2015, 08:44 PM
Interesting, well, at least here we have universal healthcare and even with a min wage of $15 I think you can find a fair bachelor apartment that's affordable, or a basement apartment like mine.

Twiggy, I'm curious what you think will happen to that monthly rent you speak of, once everyone is making $15/hour..?

Camo tung
08-02-2015, 08:47 PM
They didn't.

The provinces, not the federal government, are responsible for Health. (here (http://www.craigmarlatt.com/canada/government/government.html)) While the Federal Liberals portray themselves as the guardians of our national health care system, it was Martin's $25 billion cuts to health care funding when he was finance minister in the early 1990s that led to the crises in the provincial health care systems. Near the end of 2004, Chretien committed the federal government to health care spending using a 6% compounding increment per year for ten years -- and the conservative government since 2006 has been paying that. Now the Conservatives have budgeted for an annual increase of 3% or inflation whichever is greater. So they've been increasing health care payments by 6% every year they've been in office, and they're going to be increasing health care payments by 3% or more from now on.
The difference between 3%+ that the conservatives have agreed to, and the 6% that no one agreed to but the provinces wanted, that the provinces put into 'general income fund' so it might not even actually end up in health care, is the $36 billion that's been falsely plastered all over the televisions for months by the unions.
Unions, which I'll mention are not happy about having their finances made public in 2017, and are trying to get rid of the conservative government so that the NDP will get rid of that legislation that will force them to do so.

A fairly good analysis is at:
http://policyoptions.irpp.org/2014/11/15/the-myth-of-federal-health-care-cuts/


Which they weren't using.

Veterans Affairs handed back $1.1-billion in unspent funds: documents
-- http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/11-billion-in-unspent-funds-at-veterans-affairs-documents-show/article21665655/

The harper government also closed 9 veterans buildings, moving the employees and paperwork into the 1000+ Service Canada offices. A cost saving measure that delivers improved service. Don't you wish more governments were like that?


The conservatives introduced the largest increase in over 25 years to the Guaranteed Income Supplement, helping improve the financial security of low-income seniors across Canada. The federal government also significantly reduced taxes for seniors with measures like pension income splitting, the increased Age Credit amount, the doubled Pension Income Credit, and more. They've also introduced the Home Accessibility Tax Credit for seniors and persons with disabilities, and enhanced the flexibility of withdrawals from Registered Retirement Income Funds.


Say what?
Canada Post does hire private contractors to deliver the mail, and have been doing that for 4 decades -- from trucking the mail around, to home delivery.


Now, now....don't let a factually incorrect political attack ad cloud the young newb's dreams of unicorns and pixie dust farts.

Twiggy
08-02-2015, 09:04 PM
Twiggy, I'm curious what you think will happen to that monthly rent you speak of, once everyone is making $15/hour..?

I see you are trying to say rents will just go up, well rents are already too high and they may very well go up. I'd hope that they wouldn't though and the rent would be based on the quality, and area of the apartment.

Right now my rent is $500 all inclusive, but the Niagara Region is much less expensive to live in than the GTA is. Heck I pay a $81 phone bill, and still have about $520 left after those monthly things I always pay. I usually budget up to $300 for food, at least 3 meals a day, and then $200 for whatever I want, you know, couple beers, maybe some new music etc.

lone-wolf
08-02-2015, 09:08 PM
Min wage isn't meant to be a career, and if people were asking too much for rent, there wouldn't be people renting and the rate would drop.
And if it wasn't for regulations, likely there would more apartments available for a range of prices.

Haywire1
08-02-2015, 09:15 PM
Hey if it saves one life.....

Twiggy, good on you for being open to suggestions, and actually asking some questions of your own. I do want to point out a couple things. In your first post you say that right wingers view left wingers as libtards and dippers, and take a bit of offence to that, saying right wingers need to view them as individuals not necessarily as a group. Then a couple.posts later you comment you were surprised that a right winger stood up for you. That statement comes across as lumping us right wingers all in the same group, or in other words, what you accused us of doing.

Ones political views are what they are for various reasons, some vote single issue, ie firearms, some vote for personality, ie liberal because of trudeau, some vote for the party they feel will best govern, and still others jump on a bandwagon. I have always voted conservative, mainly because their policies tend to align closest with my own. Looking at the track record of the NDP, which has financially devastated every province they have governed means that I wont vote NDP federally bacuse the platform, amd in some cases the people themselves are the same. I wont vote liberal for a few reasons, their record in Ontario for example, along with the unaccounted for 400 million missing dollars, the over reaction and introduction of a useless firearms act, and a few other things, like balancing the budget by doing passing the buck to the provinces etc. Nor will I vote for any party that basically encourage unions to spend a worker hard earned money on political advertising, there is simply no need for it, and I for one would be very angry if I were a union member, and was basically forced to give a portion of my paycheque to support a political party I myself disliked.

Add in the tendency of the left wing to incredibly exaggerate the facts, like the example in your first post, and that leaves me the conservatives as my only option. I am one of the ones Blacksmithden refers to when he says as right wing as he is. And just an fyi, I am a pagan, have two adopted sisters, both half native, the youngest is fetal alcohol syndrome, and has OCD, as well as aspirgers, while the older of the two is a member of the lgbt community, lives in the U.S. and is married to a Filipino. I dare you to find someone who breaks more of your listed stereotypes than I do.

None of that is an attack on you, as I said, I am glad your open to suggestions and asking questions, but I do think what noone has pointed ojt to you is that your opening post in this thread if similarly worded in other forums, probably has more to do with your reception than the fact firearms owners are mainly right wing. Sure we use the terms libtard and dipper, because those two parties have both stated they want to restrict or deeply affect the one thing all of us have in common here, firearms. I grew up as many others did, using my .22 for gophers, squirrels, badgers etc. I bought .22 ammo by the brick at the local hardware store, took my rifle to school where it sat on my locker until after school when me and my friends would go out shooting after school. All of that changed because one nutjob shot up a university. Suddenly I was automatically a criminal and needed a special permit to break the law, rather than simply co tinue doing what millions of Canadians have done for years and enjoy shooting. Being told that you are a criminal, having to defend your hobby, or how you feed your family, over and over, and seeing the flat out lies told by both the liberals and the ndp regarding bill c-42 doesnt encourage firearms owners to support those who claim those parties are better. Just some food for thought.

Twiggy
08-02-2015, 10:03 PM
Hey if it saves one life.....

Twiggy, good on you for being open to suggestions, and actually asking some questions of your own. I do want to point out a couple things. In your first post you say that right wingers view left wingers as libtards and dippers, and take a bit of offence to that, saying right wingers need to view them as individuals not necessarily as a group. Then a couple.posts later you comment you were surprised that a right winger stood up for you. That statement comes across as lumping us right wingers all in the same group, or in other words, what you accused us of doing.

Ones political views are what they are for various reasons, some vote single issue, ie firearms, some vote for personality, ie liberal because of trudeau, some vote for the party they feel will best govern, and still others jump on a bandwagon. I have always voted conservative, mainly because their policies tend to align closest with my own. Looking at the track record of the NDP, which has financially devastated every province they have governed means that I wont vote NDP federally bacuse the platform, amd in some cases the people themselves are the same. I wont vote liberal for a few reasons, their record in Ontario for example, along with the unaccounted for 400 million missing dollars, the over reaction and introduction of a useless firearms act, and a few other things, like balancing the budget by doing passing he buck to the provinces etc. Nor will I vote for any parties that basically encourage unions to spend a worker hard earned money on political advertising, there is simply no need for it, and I for one would be very angry if I were a union member, and was basically forced to give a portion of my paycheque to support a political party I myself disliked.

Add in the tendency of the left wing to incredibly exaggerate the facts, like the example in your first post, and that leaves me the conservatives as my only option. I am one of the ones Blacksmithden refers to when he says as right wing as he is. And just an fyi, I am a pagan, have two adopted sisters, both half native, the youngest is fetal alcohol syndrome, and has OCD, as well as aspirgers, while the older of the two is a member of the lgbt community, lives in the U.S. and is married to a Filipino. I dare you to find someone who breaks more of your listed stereotypes than I do.

None of that is an attack on you, as I said, I am glad your open to suggestions and asking questions, but I do think what noone has pointed ojt to you is that your opening post in this thread if similarly worded in other forums, probably has more to do with your reception than the fact firearms owners are mainly right wing.

That's a fair criticism. I tend to have communication issues, I have always had that used to be much worse when I was younger of course and a lot of other things were much worse when I was younger and before and even during therapy but you know somone with an ASD so you can probably guess that.

What I meant by that second comment is I used to have a very stereotypical view of right-wingers indeed, but that experience began opening my eyes and now I don't.

this is not really related but you may like this story.

In the second semester of grade 10, because of an incident I had in the first semester, where my school tried to diagnosis me with psychosis and my diagnosing psychiatrist had to reaffirm autism, I had to have no classes that a certain other student had, so I ended up taking grade 11 English the semester after grade 10 english, so in grade 10. That class was full of your stereotypical stupid smoking, class skipping, disrespectful teens. Anyway one day in class, I got into an argument with a couple of them and they were just like "you're a f*cking downy" and "you take the short bus", and "you are allowed to use a laptop in class". I ended up getting the highest grade out of all people in that class, they either failed or got a "curtsey" or "forced pass" and I ended up winning the "Subject Award of Merit" in grade 11 English that year and made the honour roll, I also ended up graduating high school as an Ontario scholar (with honours) and got a $1,000 scholarship to a college. I wish they were still there so I could be like "you barely graduated, I got all this good stuff, now who's retarded?!?".

they also were too stupid to tell the difference between autism and down syndrome, when down syndromed people usually look obvious (not meaning to be offensive but you know what I am hinting at).

Cryptix
08-02-2015, 10:15 PM
I see you are trying to say rents will just go up, well rents are already too high and they may very well go up. I'd hope that they wouldn't though and the rent would be based on the quality, and area of the apartment.

Right now my rent is $500 all inclusive, but the Niagara Region is much less expensive to live in than the GTA is. Heck I pay a $81 phone bill, and still have about $520 left after those monthly things I always pay. I usually budget up to $300 for food, at least 3 meals a day, and then $200 for whatever I want, you know, couple beers, maybe some new music etc.

I appreciate the response. :)

Food for thought: If the cost of an apartment should be dependant upon it's quality and location, shouldn't wages be dependant upon the quality and location of the work produced? No response sought after. Your questions remind me of how I was thinking 10-15years ago.

Cheers!

lone-wolf
08-02-2015, 10:17 PM
My brother has severe autism, and no one was that ignorant to him in my high school. I'm amazed anyone is that ignorant.
But if they were, someone would of punched them, so maybe that's why.

Rory McCanuck
08-02-2015, 10:24 PM
I appreciate the response. :)

Food for thought: If the cost of an apartment should be dependant upon it's quality and location, shouldn't wages be dependant upon the quality and location of the work produced? No response sought after. Your questions remind me of how I was thinking 10-15years ago.

Cheers!You know what though? Judging from the responses, I think Twiggy is going to do alright.
Both here with all us curmudgeons, and in life.

Haywire1
08-02-2015, 10:36 PM
Yup I think he will do fine.

Cryptix
08-02-2015, 10:43 PM
You know what though? Judging from the responses, I think Twiggy is going to do alright.
Both here with all us curmudgeons, and in life.

Absolutely agreed. That's why a discussion is worth the time and effort. :)

762shooter
08-02-2015, 11:06 PM
Corporations also cut jobs in favour of profit often though, I don't entirely trust corporations. Heck, I have applied for jobs and only got a call back from Walmart for a phone interview over 2 months ago and nothing. It was an entry level over-night stocking position too not like it takes great skill lol.

Plus in the states Walmart pays it's workers so low that most of their employees need subsidized housing, Medicare, and food stamps. Corporations are not a godsend, some like the one I just mentioned rely on the government to subsidize low wages. Not that I'm against helping people, I'm not, but I think working people should at least be paid a fair wage. Heck, all I have at the moment is a disability cheque totalling $1,100 CAD (if you round up just a tad) and I probably have more money than most american Walmart employees. Funny.

The main purpose of corporations is to make profit, I doubt they give a crap about employing people, for the most part.

I agree with you. This is a big and growing social problem both here and in the US. This could well lead to significant social turmoil in the next couple of decades.

Twiggy
08-02-2015, 11:19 PM
I agree with you. This is a big and growing social problem both here and in the US. This could well lead to significant social turmoil in the next couple of decades.

Yup, thankfully some people who want to do something for this, are picking up steam, and while they may not win this time around, they will eventually because people are waking up slowly.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFnT4AbJLrw

lone-wolf
08-02-2015, 11:27 PM
lol bernie is not someone to look up to

Twiggy
08-02-2015, 11:30 PM
lol bernie is not someone to look up to

I heard he is rather pro-gun, something which people who would otherwise support him, don't like very much.

From what I heard him say, he seems like the right guy.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohLGRnfCd50

lone-wolf
08-02-2015, 11:34 PM
He's a economic illiterate(is there any other kind) communist.
He voted to ban semi auto firearms according to the video... he sounds pretty anti-gun to me.

Twiggy
08-02-2015, 11:44 PM
He's a economic illiterate(is there any other kind) communist.
He voted to ban semi auto firearms according to the video... he sounds pretty anti-gun to me.

Yeah I just watched the entire video, but at least he understands that a manufacturer is not responsible for a crime committed with their product by somebody else.

lone-wolf
08-03-2015, 12:03 AM
Oh yea, http://reason.com is another source for news/articles.

Twiggy
08-03-2015, 12:30 AM
It was fun talking, but with it being 2:30am and all, I'm calling it a night.

FlyingHigh
08-03-2015, 07:45 AM
Ok so the healthcare thing isn't entirely true? Where do I go for true news these days? It seems most media stations either have a left or right bias and there's hardly any "true news" out there.

Please forgive my naivete, I'm only 20 and I also have autism (doesn't have anything to do with my intelligence per say, but more with social relatedness and communication and functioning in areas such as those).

I do though politically believe that government should be there to help regular people and not corporations and such, so when I hear things like corporate tax breaks or appointing industry representatives to different government councils, I get a little worked up.

Does anyone know a good unbiased news channel or website where I can get accurate news from? Sun media or Fox News as well as MSNBC and such obviously do not count, although I work for Sun Media to gather some extra income on top of my ODSP at the moment.

Thanks for not attacking me as has so often happened in other places.

Hi Knightly :)

harbl_the_cat
08-03-2015, 08:39 AM
FYI - corporations don't exist to make profits. Businesses do - and corporations are a vehicle businesses use to be profitable.

They do that by limiting business owners liability should a business venture fail to whatever upfront capital they expend or procure in the process of running their business. This protects business owners from predatory clients or unforeseen conditions.

This allows business owners the ability to conduct business without the fear of having all their personal assets entangled should something happen to their business. It also allows businesses, as they grow profitable, the ability to raise capital by selling securities (shares) in the company, giving the public the ability to have a stake of ownership in the company.

Governments love corporations because they are huge drivers of economic growth. They enable entrepreneurs who otherwise would be unable to create a business because the consequence of failure is too large or because they don't have the ability to raise capital.

The problem is when government's start forming unholy alliances with corporations - either when big corporations start buying out politicians, when politicians start cozying up to corporations by bailing them out when they should fail, or when government's enact laws and regulations that distort market signals.

It's a myth that corporations only exist to create profits - a myth propagated, generally by government loving socialists who hate profitable private enterprise and set the precedent that profits are bad.

Profits are good, though. They enable entrepreneurs like me to be able to create jobs MUCH more effeciently and fairly than the government would or could.

RangeBob
08-03-2015, 10:17 AM
It's a myth that corporations only exist to create profits - a myth propagated, generally by government loving socialists who hate profitable private enterprise and set the precedent that profits are bad.

If the corporation has shareholders,
a corporation's directors have by Law a duty to protect shareholders interests (as a group, not individual) -- which is primarily profit, even if such action is immoral.

Twiggy
08-03-2015, 11:16 AM
If the corporation has shareholders,
a corporation's directors have by Law a duty to protect shareholders interests (as a group, not individual) -- which is primarily profit, even if such action is immoral.

Yeah, and the problem is while there's a good few corps who do put morality before profit there's many that don't.

Twiggy
08-03-2015, 11:24 AM
Hi Knightly :)

Hello,

How are you today?

Foxer
08-03-2015, 11:28 AM
Yeah, and the problem is while there's a good few corps who do put morality before profit there's many that don't.

Well they're not supposed to. That's why we have regulation. Despite harbl's post, businesses are there to make profit and corporations are the largest business. They are often too big to even consider morality - too many moving parts making too many decisions to have any kind of concensus on the matter. I mean, what IS 'moral'? That definition has been kicked back and forth for the better part of three millennia now.

What you do is reward good behavior and punish bad behavior. Like a dog. THings like the CPC's tax credit for hiring interns and apprentices is an example - hey, if you actually take underqualified people (who are less profitable) on and train them as part of their job, we'll make it worth your while. The corps say "well it's to our advantage to have people trained OUR way, and it's less expensive than a regular employee with experience, so yeah - we'll give you a crack at it kid, lets see what you can do. "

It is as pointless to expect corps to be 'moral' as it is to expect your puppy to not piddle on the carpet on ethical grounds. It won't happen. You train the puppy by rubbing his nose in it when he does and providing him an alternative that suits his needs, like asking to go outside. And when he does well, throw him a treat. They then decide that this is a better way to behave.

lone-wolf
08-03-2015, 12:38 PM
If the corporation has shareholders,
a corporation's directors have by Law a duty to protect shareholders interests (as a group, not individual) -- which is primarily profit, even if such action is immoral.

It's immoral to take people's money and not invest it the best way possible to make money, which is the agreement when investing.

RangeBob
08-03-2015, 07:30 PM
Re the 36 billion,
here's some numbers for federal transfer payments, including health, 2005 - 2015
http://www.fin.gc.ca/fedprov/mtp-eng.asp

Twiggy
08-03-2015, 07:50 PM
Re the 36 billion,
here's some numbers for federal transfer payments, including health, 2005 - 2015
http://www.fin.gc.ca/fedprov/mtp-eng.asp

Seems they've went up by just about 10b then. Wowza.

3MTA3
08-03-2015, 08:15 PM
“Morality governs the actions of rational beings insofar as they affect other rational beings. Formal organizations – for instance, corporations – act. Ford Motor Company produces cars; it also builds factories, hires and fires people, pays them wages, pays taxes, recalls defective models, and so on. Not only do businesses act, they also act rationally according to a rational decision-making procedure. Because their rational actions affect people, these actions can be evaluated from a moral point of view. If it is immoral for an individual to discriminate, it is also immoral for a corporation to discriminate. If it is praiseworthy for an individual to give to charity, it is praiseworthy for a business to give to charity…Actions can be morally evaluated whether done by an individual or by an entity such as a company, corporation, or a nation.-Richard T. De George; Business Ethics

lone-wolf
08-03-2015, 08:54 PM
If judging the moral/immoral actions of a group, with the same standard that we judge individuals, then it would be government buildings we'd be burning down - not corporations.

harbl_the_cat
08-04-2015, 12:26 PM
Corporations, like guns and governments (and heck, let's throw in religion too), are a tool.

Morality is a human attribute - the second you attribute morality to an inanimate object, you are granting it human personhood.

Do guns kill?

Are corporations or governments people?

Any good or evil, whether a gun, corporation, government, or religion is involved is entirely the consequence of the persons who operate them.

Therein lies the blame for all the world's woes and credit for all the worlds triumphs: the deeds or misdeeds of individual human beings.

3MTA3
08-05-2015, 08:35 AM
What is CORPORATION?

An artificial person or legal entity created by or under the authority of the laws of a state or nation, composed, in some rare instances, of a single person and his successors, being the incumbents of a particular office, but ordinarily consisting of an association of numerous individuals, who subsist as a body politic under a special denomination, which is regarded In law as having a personality and existence distinct from that of its several members, and which is, by the same authority, vested with the capacity of continuous succession, irrespective of changes in its membership, either in perpetuity or for a limited term of years, and of acting as a unit or single individual in matters relating to the common purpose of the association, within the scope of the powers and authorities conferred upon such bodies by law

Law Dictionary: What is CORPORATION? definition of CORPORATION (Black's Law Dictionary)
...

Baddog377
08-05-2015, 11:20 AM
I see you are trying to say rents will just go up, well rents are already too high and they may very well go up. I'd hope that they wouldn't though and the rent would be based on the quality, and area of the apartment.

Right now my rent is $500 all inclusive, but the Niagara Region is much less expensive to live in than the GTA is. Heck I pay a $81 phone bill, and still have about $520 left after those monthly things I always pay. I usually budget up to $300 for food, at least 3 meals a day, and then $200 for whatever I want, you know, couple beers, maybe some new music etc.

Rents not only follow what the earners make but they primarily follow the housing costs. The rent will have to be at least what the mortgage and expenses cost each month just to break even. In a place like Toronto ,Calgary or Vancouver the "break even" Rent can seem very over priced. Are the owners expected to lose money each month so people can rent for the price they want, some people think so.

RangeBob
08-05-2015, 11:41 AM
The rent will have to be at least what the mortgage and expenses cost each month just to break even.

The rent has to be at least the interest portion of the mortgage and all the expenses cost just to break even.
These days, many landlords charge the full amount of monthly mortgage (interest + principal payment), which basically means the tenant is paying for the house without owning it.
But in the past, landlords would collect rents that were less than the monthly mortgage (interest + principal payment), and they were still making money because the tenant is paying for part of the house. Also the house's value is going up.

lone-wolf
08-05-2015, 08:52 PM
These days, many landlords charge the full amount of monthly mortgage (interest + principal payment), which basically means the tenant is paying for the house without owning it.
If you going to be renting your property(and not living in it), you should be making money on it and banking it for when repairs and unforeseen expenses come up.
That's my view, if I had a place to rent out :/
It's also why renting feels like throwing money away.

Baddog377
08-05-2015, 09:02 PM
And dealing with all the headaches, getting people in, getting people out, fixing stuff all the time because people don't respect whats not theirs.
No, a carpet is not for putting your cigarettes out on. No a fridge is not for putting graffiti on. I know your child is a gifted artist but please not on the wall. If you wanted to see what was inside the walls you could have just asked me instead of pulling the drywall off.
That house, Is a half million dollar investment and when the market crashes and the owner losses their life savings, It will not be the tenant that loses a dime , nor will it be the socialists crying on his behalf lamenting how unfair everything is.

RangeBob
08-06-2015, 01:39 AM
"the economic success story of the Harper years. Take a look at the following table from tradingeconomics.com and note that during the last 9 years our GDP has nearly doubled, despite the brutal 2008-09 recession... "
http://www.effie.ca/canada-gdp.png
-- hxxp://www.effie.ca/Where-I-Stand.html

You can get the above by going to
http://www.tradingeconomics.com/canada/indicators
finding "GDP" (4th down), and pushing the http://cdn.tradingeconomics.com/charts/preview.png?h=15&w=30&n=4&y=0&y2=0&x=0&title=false&lbl=0&bg=0&url=/canada/gdp&version=20141231 icon on the right.


Hmm, I see Saudi Arabia's Debt/GDP is pretty good.
Japan's is worse than Greece.
http://www.tradingeconomics.com/

harbl_the_cat
08-06-2015, 09:50 AM
The rent has to be at least the interest portion of the mortgage and all the expenses cost just to break even.
These days, many landlords charge the full amount of monthly mortgage (interest + principal payment), which basically means the tenant is paying for the house without owning it.

This is the first part of the winning formula. The next part is to add furnishings, provide utilities and services like cleaning and accept short term tenants, especially through sharing economy systems like VRBO, AirBNB, FlipKey and Homestay.

Then you can rent out a property for easily 1.5 - 3x the full mortgage payments, write off the interest payments, costs for services, utilities, depreciate the capital investment for furnishings, THEN use the excess revenues to reinvest into the property (writing off those expenses as well) to make it even more profitable.


But in the past, landlords would collect rents that were less than the monthly mortgage (interest + principal payment), and they were still making money because the tenant is paying for part of the house. Also the house's value is going up.

This is a losing formula - banking on capital appreciation is a fools errand, especially in current market conditions.

I think this was the biggest reason there was the big housing market crash in 2008. Landlords were lazy and greedy - just buying properties, waiting for the price to go up, doing the bare minimum to the property to keep it operational.

I can foresee for the next 2 decades housing prices staying flat to going down with periodic crashes in between.

Stephen
08-06-2015, 01:53 PM
My girlfriend is way out in left field and supports gun ownership. She supports licensing and training courses because she thinks people are to stupid to be trusted.

I am slowly converting her and she is seeing the light. I never thought I would be dating some little city girl that is almost the complete opposite of me.

no2fembots
08-25-2015, 05:31 PM
Abortion wise, I don't like the idea of terminating a pregnancy, but I also feel that the women has the right to do it since it is her own body.

And what about the man? They BOTH made the zygote, yet she has all the choices? She can keep the baby and he has to support it against his will x 18 years, if that is what she desires. She can terminate the baby and he has no power to stop the "procedure" should he want the baby. She has choices, he has obligations, period.

And that feminist canard of he can just "keep it in his pants", why can't she "keep her damn legs shut"? Things that make you go "Hmmnnn...."

The "it's her body" BS doesn't wash with me. The State can and does procure a man's body against his will to place himself in harms way - AND even worse, force him to kill other men!!! Truly, no body has absolute right over their own body in this, or any State that has ever existed. Check out the word "inalienable": kind of missing in action word to describe a right in Canada.

Blast away, people, blast away...

Haywire1
08-25-2015, 05:45 PM
Well since the op got banned for trolling, quoting hime and looking for a reaction is rather pointless. Back to the original topic or thread will be closed.

no2fembots
08-25-2015, 08:02 PM
OOOPS!

I did not realize the person I was responding to was banned.

Please disregard...

conger
08-25-2015, 08:41 PM
This is the first part of the winning formula. The next part is to add furnishings, provide utilities and services like cleaning and accept short term tenants, especially through sharing economy systems like VRBO, AirBNB, FlipKey and Homestay.

Then you can rent out a property for easily 1.5 - 3x the full mortgage payments, write off the interest payments, costs for services, utilities, depreciate the capital investment for furnishings, THEN use the excess revenues to reinvest into the property (writing off those expenses as well) to make it even more profitable.



This is a losing formula - banking on capital appreciation is a fools errand, especially in current market conditions.

I think this was the biggest reason there was the big housing market crash in 2008. Landlords were lazy and greedy - just buying properties, waiting for the price to go up, doing the bare minimum to the property to keep it operational.

I can foresee for the next 2 decades housing prices staying flat to going down with periodic crashes in between.
Not to mention, one bad tenant can ruin you financially. Once they are in there it's like trying to dig out a tick. Really bad scenario is if a landlord gets one of those "freeman on the land" types. I've heard of a couple of those almost bankrupting a home owner renting out a suite.

Sent from my SGH-I747M using Tapatalk

Haywire1
08-25-2015, 09:13 PM
Final warning. Stay on topic. If you cant remember the topic, reread post number 1. The next off topic post wins a thread review and a really annoyed mod.

Doug_M
08-26-2015, 04:08 AM
Here's a post on topic. From the Op:


In closing, until we change on the inside, don't expect much to change on the outside.

I think Twiggy's view may have been from experience elsewhere. I don't need to "change on the inside". I think most here believe in "live and let live". Now if someone wants to try and sell BS that the Libs are NDP aren't after our guns then they'll be told otherwise. But I doubt people here are pushing others away from hunting or shooting by being intolerant.