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Doug_M
08-10-2015, 04:11 AM
Shawn Bevins announced a new rights org the other day. A coalition. I see Rod Giltaca is involved (which I see as a plus). They're just getting started and are planning a website etc but they of course have a Facebook group. As this is just getting going I am of course skeptical as to what the org will shape into and what their direction/methods will be. But I joined the FB group to keep abreast of things. There was a post last night outlining their purposes and objectives. So without further ado here they are:


Pierre Plourde
August 8 at 7:46pm.

The purposes and objectives of the Canadian Coalition for Firearm Rights (ďthe CoalitionĒ) are:

1. To protect and defend the Constitution of Canada;
2. To promote public safety, law and order, and the national defense;
3. To advocate for legislative change to protect and enhance the inalienable right of the individual Canadian citizen to acquire, possess, collect, exhibit, transport, carry, transfer ownership of, and enjoy the right to use arms, in order that the people may always be in a position to exercise their legitimate individual rights of self-preservation and defense of family, person, and property, as well as to serve effectively in the appropriate militia for the common defense of the Dominion and the individual liberty of its citizens;
4. To promote, support, and protect all safe firearm activities, including the right of self-defence;
5. To foster and promote the shooting sports, including the advancement of amateur competitions in marksmanship at the local, provincial, national, and international levels;
6. To promote hunter safety, and to promote and defend hunting as a shooting sport and as a viable and necessary method of fostering the propagation, growth and conservation, and wise use of our renewable wildlife resources;
7. To provide firearms education for all Canadians;
8. To train members of law enforcement agencies, the armed forces, the militia, and people of good repute in marksmanship and in the safe handling and efficient use of small arms; and
9. To ensure freedom and justice for Canadaís firearms community.

The Coalition may take all actions in accordance with these Articles and the By-Laws necessary and proper in the furtherance of these purposes and objectives.

Doug_M
08-10-2015, 04:17 AM
I find parts of #2, 3 and 8 a little, um, whacky. Specifically I'm referring to the references to "national defence" and "the militia". In Canada "the militia" is the reserves. I was a member and while they have since "rebranded" the army reserves it was quite literally called the Militia. There is no provision for citizens to create their own militia in Canada. And that asside I think any organization that publicly advocates civilian firearms ownership as being beneficial to the defence of Canada is going to get laughed at or worse seen as a bunch of whackos.

I think CLW is right in that we need to talk about self-defence as a legitimate reason to own firearms and this coaltion seems to be support that. But it will get nowhere fast with this "defence of Canada" stuff. Oh boy.

SIR VEYOR
08-10-2015, 06:24 AM
#2 needs the defense clarified maybe? People or of Canada?
#3 is obviously the "No Compromise" camp leaf branch, but way too Yankee for up here.
#6,7,8 seem more at home with a busiiness model, especially when mentioning categories that have their own instruction protocols in place.

This sounds more like an org created to subsidize a business effort, such as a training school.

And until Foxer signs off on the Bylaws and the dollar tracking is quite clear cut I'll be very skeptical.

And this makes how many recent org attempts?

I'm starting to think that most of these attempts are just plays for our $$ and nothing else. Fill our coffers with donations, a bunch of revenue form our assorted sites, etc.

Canadian gun owners are now the silicon valley for startups.

Curly1
08-10-2015, 06:33 AM
Looks more like a beer fuel manifesto, especially the run on sentence that is #3.

Doug_M
08-10-2015, 08:33 AM
Looks more like a beer fuel manifesto, especially the run on sentence that is #3.

and the guy who wrote it is a lawyer!

Curly1
08-10-2015, 08:54 AM
and the guy who wrote it is a lawyer!

If a lawyer wrote that mess, than I know why so many of our laws suck!

kennymo
08-10-2015, 09:03 AM
Clever throwing 'coalition' in there. Should make searches for Wendy's 'coalition' a little more interesting. Watching with interest, if the chest thumping starts up again in the same manner as before, I'm out....

Rory McCanuck
08-10-2015, 09:19 AM
Seeing as it's Bevins, and all the NFA Reloaded people that cut up their NFA cards, I'm sure it will be quite the show.
Too bad that they're probably "going to speak for Canadian Gun Owners" because I'm reasonably sure they're going to spout off a bunch of s*** that I want no part of.
You know, like militias, which are illegal in Canada.
Inalienable rights? Pfft.
Sorry to hear Rod is being associated with a clown show.

Deuce-deuce
08-10-2015, 09:24 AM
I'm going to hold my tongue for now but I will say I don't have high hopes...

Doug_M
08-10-2015, 09:46 AM
Clever throwing 'coalition' in there. Should make searches for Wendy's 'coalition' a little more interesting. Watching with interest, if the chest thumping starts up again in the same manner as before, I'm out....

I think a true coalition of various groups, businesses and the like working on common goals together could actually be very effective. Hopefully this turns into such a thing and not a repeat of the "no compromise" campaign.

If it is successful I can see it now at the next C-## committee hearings:

Coalition spokeman: "Mr. Chairman I'm here representing over 300 firearms businesses, rights organizations, shooting clubs and group..."

Mark-II
08-10-2015, 10:15 AM
This sounds more like an org created to subsidize a business effort, such as a training school.


Considering Rod runs a training school and Bevins just started a mall-ninja business, you could have a point.

Bevins also has some sort of position with the libertardian party now as well - and you can clearly see those concepts in this manifesto.

No.... I'm neither impressed nor interested

Zinilin
08-10-2015, 10:37 AM
I read this as airy-fairy motherhood and apple pie.
The motives are too diverse, the objective to numerous and the membership criteria are fuzzy.

I maintain that a business centered profit driven cabal could be more effective.
Canadian Range Operators (http://www.gunownersofcanada.ca/showthread.php?21096-Follow-me-I-want-to-start-a-new-firearms-org&p=230046&viewfull=1#post230046)

lone-wolf
08-10-2015, 11:25 AM
http://www.firearmrights.ca/

88 louie
08-10-2015, 11:50 AM
To me it looks like they are trying to reinforce some of the criteria in the magna carta. Tagged for interest.:popcorn:

CivilAdvantage
08-10-2015, 02:02 PM
Gents,
This seems to be a thread that went off the rails basically immediately. I was informed of the existence of this new org last Wednesday. I was asked to help. I looked at the roster and saw a lot of committed people who have done an incredible amount of work on behalf of all gun owners in Canada for basically no benefit of their own. Work on behalf of fudds, novices, target shooters, law enforcement and military gun owners. I trust those people and said I was willing to help. With the anonymous, defeatist, narcissistic attitude that keep roaring out of it's lair in our community it's a miracle that anyone takes us seriously.

This is why I find some posts in this thread ridiculous. The freaking website isn't even finished, not one meeting to finalize the bylaws or constitution has occurred yet. I haven't even talked in person to Pierre Plourde yet. Cool your keyboards.

I spoke to Bevins this morning after reading the draft constitution for the first time last night. These items come from the Canadian Constitution and the English Bill of Rights which is still actually law today. The militia reference is to groups like the Canadian Rangers. Yes, a branch of the Canadian Forces and yes, a government sanctioned militia.

Look at the people involved. Do you think there will be chest thumping????? And for sure, Pierre Plourde and others have donated OVER $20,000 worth of legal structure to make money in firearms training. Good God man.

I recommend you wait until the org is up and running and strongly consider supporting it. Or, continue criticizing and crushing everyone's attempts to help you keep your guns.

lone-wolf
08-10-2015, 02:09 PM
Refreshing.

Deuce-deuce
08-10-2015, 02:19 PM
Nice shirt though.

Steveo9mm
08-10-2015, 02:33 PM
interesting

Foxer
08-10-2015, 03:50 PM
Nice shirt though.

Ok, i don't care who you are, that's funny right there :)

Foxer
08-10-2015, 04:16 PM
Well - it's interesting. I'll have to take a look at the bylaws and the structure, but at the end of the day I think any org should be judged on it's performance. It's unclear what their 'vehicle' for obtaining their stated objectives will be... will it be political advocacy/lobbying? Or perhaps public education and engagement? Or media work? Or something else perhaps.

Way too soon to pass judgement I think, but we all respect Rod, who clearly isn't endorsing the org without reservation but is taking a serious look and we probably should give it a bit and see what they come up with for an action plan. I'll get around to looking at the bylaws and such in a bit, but for now it's worth watching to see where they're going with it.


BTW - guys, nobody who's even remotely sane tangles their business that puts bread on the table up with an untested political org. Can you imagine how a business that was closely related to the NFA would be doing right now? You'd get a lot more mileage out of REAL advertising and doing an e-magazine or something than you ever would from something like this and with far less risk. Rod for example would get much more mileage out of throwing up more videos on his channel than he would from anything that could come out of this for the same amount of time. I think we can probably write off the 'in it for the business' angle.

Pizzed
08-10-2015, 04:22 PM
Cool your keyboards.Bah! E-mobs rule!


;)

Doug_M
08-10-2015, 04:26 PM
Fair enough Rod. Although the criticisms here are also strongly echoed in Pierre's FB post.

FALover
08-10-2015, 04:29 PM
Bah! E-mobs rule!


;)



E-MOBS!!! Where does the line start! :Beer time:

Foxer
08-10-2015, 05:48 PM
Fair enough Rod. Although the criticisms here are also strongly echoed in Pierre's FB post.

Given those involved there's plenty of reason to be slightly skeptical at this point. But - any org is more than any one person and this one is just brand new, so we'll have to wait and see.

CivilAdvantage
08-10-2015, 06:13 PM
Fair enough Rod. Although the criticisms here are also strongly echoed in Pierre's FB post.

Appreciated. Let's just get a month or two in and see if it's something any of us want to be associated with. I stepped up for the NFA, had a bad experience and backed off. I'll continue to step up for people who put in the effort to do something. We need a good, balanced org from somewhere or we will have no real voice. I'm prepared to take the risk. If it works, great. If not, I'll continue to do my best with my own stuff and carry on.

Cryptix
08-10-2015, 06:56 PM
I've enjoyed watching the Civil Advantage and 11 Minutes channels for one simple reason: Rod comes off as genuine.

Right or wrong, he's been pro-actively open and honest about his knowledge (or lack of) of a particular subject, and on more than one occasion has held a different opinion than I. But the overall message he pushes is something I believe in and will support. Not with blind devotion but rather with sceptical mind, and I think later is worth more than the former.

Let us wait for the Figure 11's to pop up, before we send rounds down range.

RimfireFans
08-10-2015, 10:59 PM
Are they going to ask for forty thousand dollars to make an $800 website? If so I'll pass.

Yogi05
08-10-2015, 11:39 PM
Gents, "snip"....I recommend you wait until the org is up and running and strongly consider supporting it. Or, continue criticizing and crushing everyone's attempts to help you keep your guns.

They should probably have waited until their "mission" was clearly defined before publishing their purposes and objectives.

They apparently are at a draft stage with a constitution and by-laws, so not ready to go.

You don't open the doors to a new store until you get the stock laid out and ready to sell. (IMO)

Jarlath
08-11-2015, 07:55 AM
Appreciated. Let's just get a month or two in and see if it's something any of us want to be associated with. I stepped up for the NFA, had a bad experience and backed off. I'll continue to step up for people who put in the effort to do something. We need a good, balanced org from somewhere or we will have no real voice. I'm prepared to take the risk. If it works, great. If not, I'll continue to do my best with my own stuff and carry on.

So any reason then why you wouldn't work with the CSSA? Or just that we haven't approached you in any official capacity?

SIR VEYOR
08-11-2015, 08:06 AM
Given those involved there's plenty of reason to be slightly skeptical at this point. But - any org is more than any one person and this one is just brand new, so we'll have to wait and see.

And just how many brand new orgs are we talking about here? All typically asking for support and giving differing opinions on where\how to spend\give our money. It's all just seeming to look like a "look at me and give me money". Start an org, collect donations\memberships, siphon off the cash for executive costs, and away we go. Pump and dump is one term starting to come mind here.

In any industry with a growth spurt, lots of startup are expected. But can we please get the consolidation underway just a little bit? Or least some obvious talks? Like org12 is talking with org3 and org69. We think we're finding some common ground and a merge or a coalition may be likely, based on a poll of our memebers.

Guns all shoot in mostly the same direction, with similar mechanics, but none of the orgs seem to be willing to work together to even agree on what downrange is.

If nothing else, can we agree that this niche market might be getting a little saturated?

Doug_M
08-11-2015, 08:18 AM
In any industry with a growth spurt, lots of startup are expected. But can we please get the consolidation underway just a little bit? Or least some obvious talks? Like org12 is talking with org3 and org69. We think we're finding some common ground and a merge or a coalition may be likely, based on a poll of our memebers.

Guns all shoot in mostly the same direction, with similar mechanics, but none of the orgs seem to be willing to work together to even agree on what downrange is.

I don't have a problem with multiple orgs if they aren't working against each other. They are kind of like political parties in a sense though, with their own ideologies. Many don't like the CSSA as they seem them as being passive and ineffective (not my view at all). I've had to tell some on FB who thought the CSSA were all that F-word Foxer hates, that the CSSA started out as a handgun org. Anyway, I too would like to see a true coalition of various orgs. Wouldn't it be nice if when one of the orgs gets a little momentum going on some change/bill/petition/idea that the other orgs get behind it too? Instead egos get in the way.

Metric Warrior
08-11-2015, 08:21 AM
How about writing in the charter of the club, that club dues and donations cannot be used for legal defense funds for in house fights?

Foxer
08-11-2015, 08:35 AM
You don't open the doors to a new store until you get the stock laid out and ready to sell. (IMO)That's very true, for stores. The problem with volunteer or activist orgs is that in order to attract the people you'd like to be involved you kind of have to put yourself out there before you're ready to go because you need to recruit the people necessary to GET ready to go. :)

And that's a good thing because I think they really need to have some different points of view to help craft a good org. For me - it's going to boil down to their bylaws and their plan. Good bylaws can help make sure that we don't see another 'nfa' series of incidents where there's one guy in charge for life or there's palace coups by radical elements. It can ensure that the members get good representation without having 'management by opinion poll'. And it can deal with arbitration and dispute resolution so that when there is the inevitable disagreements (and there will be - guaranteed) then there's a way to address that in a more healthy fashion.

Then there's the plan. You can't just say "we're going to do 'stuff'. MAN - you won't believe the stuff we're going to do. When you see our stuff that we do, all other stuff will pale in comparison. We are the stuff kings!"

That doesnt' work - you have to have an actual idea of what you're really going to do. If you're going into the car industry it's got to be something like 'we'll buy engines from these guys, we'll build chassis in a factory we buy, then we'll sell the finished cars directly to the public for 20 percent mark up'. Ok - that's a plan. "we intend to get into the car industry because we believe in the right to cars' is not a plan.

When they're actually ready to launch - what's the plan? What will they be doing? Specifically. How will they split their energies between recruiting members and achieving results? 50 50? 20 80? Or is it 99 percent recruiting and 1 percent actually doing anything? What's the longer term goals? Like - "we intend to build up a grass roots list of letter writers made up of both members and non members that we can call on to pressure the gov't over critical issues when they arise". Ok - that'd be cool. 50 thousand people who'll write a well written letter telling the gov't we want something at a critical time in support of other actions would be really valuable. Maybe they won't get that many in the first year or three but it's a worthy goal. Or "we're going to build a youtube channel specifically to educate people on 'blank' and we're going to make it appeal to a wide audience to get people thinking about this stuff'" Ok - well at least I know what they're going to be doing and where my support dollars might go. There might still be details to work out - but I know the specific directions they're going in.

The bylaws and the plan - we'll wait and see how that pans out.

CivilAdvantage
08-11-2015, 08:42 AM
It seems like egos have always been a serious problem in gun orgs in Canada. That and sociopathic behavior. I don't know why but I do know it's the reason we aren't further along in our goals. I am pushing for a very serious organization. No crass memes and unnecessary negative publicity, specific goals and a plan to get there. We'll see how it shapes up and all gun owners will have the choice to support it or not. My personal opinion will be transparent throughout. I hope I'm not disappointed as well.

Curly1
08-11-2015, 08:46 AM
So any reason then why you wouldn't work with the CSSA? Or just that we haven't approached you in any official capacity?

Yeah, I have been wondering what's so wrong with the CSSA? Why a new org., when an existing democratic org. is right in front of us. It at least appears to be heard by government and industry, which for me is a great start.

CivilAdvantage
08-11-2015, 08:48 AM
So any reason then why you wouldn't work with the CSSA? Or just that we haven't approached you in any official capacity?

The CSSA has never contacted me to ask about working together. I'm not sure I would be the right guy for them, maybe a little too edgy. I certainly have nothing against them. They are the only org I know of that specifically got a bill through. That can't be denied.

Foxer
08-11-2015, 08:50 AM
And just how many brand new orgs are we talking about here?

I don't know. But historically in any 'activist' arena be it guns or gay rights or womens' rights or the environment, pretty quick you start weeding out the ones who just aren't up to making a go of it. Ones who have the key elements of good structure and a solid plan and who recruit the people capable of executing it will tend to succeed and that's great -we could use more than one of those. Those who can't will quickly fall by the wayside and won't be an issue for long.


If nothing else, can we agree that this niche market might be getting a little saturated?

That is a good and valid question. I have thought much about that over the years. The thing is - our problem seems to be not that we have too many orgs, but we have too many of the same orgs who focus on broad, general concepts and who don't engage with the general gun population all that well. You can't really have that many companies all selling 'coke', but you can have one that sells 'coke' and one that sells 'ginger ale' and one that sells bottled water and one that sells energy drinks. That's actually a healthy cross over and now EVERYONE has something they can support.

If this org just tries to be another nfa or another cssa or whatever - i'm not sure how many of those we need. There WAS a time however back in teh day where the NFA was the org that got stuff done on the legal and lobbying front, and the CSSA was very good at public opinion and education front. That worked (short lived tho it was).

Nobody would argue that the BC wildlife federation and the CSSA should merge for example - they do different things and both are very valuable.

This is a time of experimentation and growth - we should look at what these orgs are putting on the table and if they're putting down solid ideas and plans with solid structure, and actually start doing positive things, then great - lets see where that goes and I think the 'correct' number will sort itself out by market evolution :)

Foxer
08-11-2015, 08:52 AM
Yeah, I have been wondering what's so wrong with the CSSA? Why a new org., when an existing democratic org. is right in front of us. It at least appears to be heard by government and industry, which for me is a great start.

Again - excellent question. This new org will have to answer that if they're going to win support. There are many things the CSSA does not do terribly well yet - and maybe it's never going to be the case that they ever will be able to do EVERYTHING well. So - is this org going to bring things to the table that the CSSA doesn't and make us stronger? Or just going to be a 'me too' copy of the CSSA? There's no way to know just yet, we haven't seen the plan. But - we shouldn't rule it out till we do.

Doug_M
08-11-2015, 08:55 AM
There WAS a time however back in teh day where the NFA was the org that got stuff done on the legal and lobbying front,

Yup. That is the greatest tragedy IMHO of the whole NFA debacle.

Doug_M
08-11-2015, 08:58 AM
It seems like egos have always been a serious problem in gun orgs in Canada. That and sociopathic behavior. I don't know why but I do know it's the reason we aren't further along in our goals. I am pushing for a very serious organization. No crass memes and unnecessary negative publicity, specific goals and a plan to get there. We'll see how it shapes up and all gun owners will have the choice to support it or not. My personal opinion will be transparent throughout. I hope I'm not disappointed as well.

If you can make that happen or steer this org in that direction the support will follow (broad reaching support), of that I have no doubt.

Zinilin
08-11-2015, 09:39 AM
Yeah, I have been wondering what's so wrong with the CSSA?

Self defence is not a sport.
I am not aware of any Canadian 'sports shooting' event that uses 30 round mags in AR-15's or snub-nose 38's.

Doug_M
08-11-2015, 10:17 AM
Self defence is not a sport.
I am not aware of any Canadian 'sports shooting' event that uses 30 round mags in AR-15's or snub-nose 38's.

While I don't know their stance on self-defence you are right in that they aren't pushing for more rights there. Doesn't mean they are against more rights though. There was an excellent couple of videos someone posted to Youtube a while back with Tony of the CSSA and he talks about all kinds of things they want and their approach to getting there. I'd be surprised if they were against self-defence (even CCW).

3-gun uses 30 round mags in AR's and didn't Olympic shooters all have short barrelled pistols before C-68 came in?

Doug_M
08-11-2015, 10:20 AM
Here we go. This was made very recently (6 months ago?) and gives one a good idea where the NFA and CSSA stand, though it is long at almost 30 minutes. But if you ever wondered just what the CSSA is aiming for it is worth the watch.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BFP-a1qIe4

Foxer
08-11-2015, 10:25 AM
Self defence is not a sport.
I am not aware of any Canadian 'sports shooting' event that uses 30 round mags in AR-15's or snub-nose 38's.

That's because we can't. Let us have 'em, I'll bet we come up with a few pretty damn quick :)

You raise a fair point, there's a lot of activities other than 'sports' that guns encompass. Even hunting isn't really a 'sport', although we use the term to differentiate between that and commercial animal harvest. But you don't exactly see 'competitions' in hunting the way you might with IPSC. :) Then there's self defense, and then there's militia issues in the older sense of the word, and so on. Would a father teaching a kid responsibility, ethics and safety thru the use of firearms training be a 'sport'? Has the CSSA ever gone to war for hunters or to get more crown land made available to shooters in provinces that don't allow it? i'm not sure they have.

At the same time - it could also be argued that a more specialized org would not be bad, like one that was focused on public education, awareness and engagement into all things guns. Fighting for better laws is great, but we know that's largely driven by how the public percieves us and it's worth looking at that side of things too, and the CSSA doesn't do all that much along those lines. There's certainly room for expanded efforts there and it's one where the more people doing it the better anyway.

Maybe even legal defense - it'd be nice to have an org that really set itself up and worked with the existing insurers and perhaps some laywers to be avaliable every time someone gets a bullcrap charge thrown at them so you could keep a card in your wallet and the moment you're having a problem you call 24 hrs a day and they step in to help deal with that. It might help fight some of this 'punishment by process' crap we've seen. Fight that with the police AND with the public, shaming cops who do that kind of thing and really hyping public awareness.

I mean, there's so many areas that are not being addressed right now by the surviving org we do have, we'll just have to see what these guys are planning on putting on the table. If it's another 'do all' org that doesn't really do a lot, well... that'd be disappointing. But if they've got some solid ideas about how to make things better then great.

Doug_M
08-11-2015, 10:30 AM
Maybe even legal defense - it'd be nice to have an org that really set itself up and worked with the existing insurers and perhaps some laywers to be avaliable every time someone gets a bullcrap charge thrown at them so you could keep a card in your wallet and the moment you're having a problem you call 24 hrs a day and they step in to help deal with that. It might help fight some of this 'punishment by process' crap we've seen. Fight that with the police AND with the public, shaming cops who do that kind of thing and really hyping public awareness.

Firearms Legal Defence (http://www.firearmlegaldefence.com). Not free with CSSA membership but you do get a small discount.

oilman28
08-11-2015, 10:38 AM
Gents,
This seems to be a thread that went off the rails basically immediately. I was informed of the existence of this new org last Wednesday. I was asked to help. I looked at the roster and saw a lot of committed people who have done an incredible amount of work on behalf of all gun owners in Canada for basically no benefit of their own. Work on behalf of fudds, novices, target shooters, law enforcement and military gun owners. I trust those people and said I was willing to help. With the anonymous, defeatist, narcissistic attitude that keep roaring out of it's lair in our community it's a miracle that anyone takes us seriously.

This is why I find some posts in this thread ridiculous. The freaking website isn't even finished, not one meeting to finalize the bylaws or constitution has occurred yet. I haven't even talked in person to Pierre Plourde yet. Cool your keyboards.

I spoke to Bevins this morning after reading the draft constitution for the first time last night. These items come from the Canadian Constitution and the English Bill of Rights which is still actually law today. The militia reference is to groups like the Canadian Rangers. Yes, a branch of the Canadian Forces and yes, a government sanctioned militia.

Look at the people involved. Do you think there will be chest thumping????? And for sure, Pierre Plourde and others have donated OVER $20,000 worth of legal structure to make money in firearms training. Good God man.

I recommend you wait until the org is up and running and strongly consider supporting it. Or, continue criticizing and crushing everyone's attempts to help you keep your guns.

Sounds like a interesting idea for a organization. One thing that could be used to promote shooting and marksmanship to novice or non gun owners a version of a American style Appleseed marksmanship clinic.

As for some people saying some of the ideas on the charter of this new org are "too yankee", what other country has been as successful at repelling restrictive gun laws and increasing gun rights than the United States. Why not learn from their ideas and apply them to us?

Doug_M
08-11-2015, 10:47 AM
Sounds like a interesting idea for a organization. One thing that could be used to promote shooting and marksmanship to novice or non gun owners a version of a American style Appleseed marksmanship clinic.

I guess at least one "Mapleseed" has taken place already. Would be nice to see more. http://newshootercanada.ca/?p=567


As for some people saying some of the ideas on the charter of this new org are "too yankee", what other country has been as successful at repelling restrictive gun laws and increasing gun rights than the United States. Why not learn from their ideas and apply them to us?

Because they have the 2nd Amendment and we don't. Most of their wins come from winning lawsuits where the 2A is central. I've been an NRA member for a few years now and so I get their magazine where they detail their wins (and losses). One thing we need to bring back again (CLW said it first) is self-defence. No, I don't think Canada is ready to hear "we want CCW" yet. But no reason why we should shy away from self-defence being a legitimate (even primary) reason for owning firearms. We should lobby to get that "reason" put back on the PAL application.

Foxer
08-11-2015, 11:01 AM
Firearms Legal Defence (http://www.firearmlegaldefence.com). Not free with CSSA membership but you do get a small discount.

That's a good start - but it falls short of what i'm talking about. Don't get me wrong - i think it's a great thing - but prepaid legal only does so much and there's much more we can do to help combat that problem. Including talking to police forces before hand, doing publicity stuff when it does happen to 'shame' police and such, and to educate cops on the real laws (we've seen that - "non restricteds must be cased and locked right?")

I'm just saying there's a lot of areas that an org could make it's focus or one of it's focuses that would benefit form an organized effort.

SIR VEYOR
08-11-2015, 11:26 AM
BTW - guys, nobody who's even remotely sane tangles their business that puts bread on the table up with an untested political org. (edited\snipped)
I think we can probably write off the 'in it for the business' angle.

From above:
8. To train members of law enforcement agencies, the armed forces, the militia, and people of good repute in marksmanship and in the safe handling and efficient use of small arms; and

Train versus educate to groups that are supposed to receive training form somewhere already and pay for such services, either in-house, or external. Sounds like at least a "for profit" option.

And while Bevins, Claire, and the NFA may be from different cloths, they are all currently painted with the same brush. It's not double secret probation, but even a hint of impropriety has to be given a lot of thought. Right or wrong, people went too far and personal pride\nobility overran the point of when to stop. So "remotely sane" is still an unproven professional qualifier when those names are involved.

SIR VEYOR
08-11-2015, 11:29 AM
It seems like egos have always been a serious problem in gun orgs in Canada. That and sociopathic behavior. I don't know why but I do know it's the reason we aren't further along in our goals. I am pushing for a very serious organization. No crass memes and unnecessary negative publicity, specific goals and a plan to get there. We'll see how it shapes up and all gun owners will have the choice to support it or not. My personal opinion will be transparent throughout. I hope I'm not disappointed as well.

I'm all in favour and like what you have done.
But until people decide to be happy not being the one at the podium....

This is one time "the greater good" of Hot Fuzz could be a good thing

Foxer
08-11-2015, 12:16 PM
From above:
8. To train members of law enforcement agencies, the armed forces, the militia, and people of good repute in marksmanship and in the safe handling and efficient use of small arms; and

Train versus educate to groups that are supposed to receive training form somewhere already and pay for such services, either in-house, or external. Sounds like at least a "for profit" option.


Sounds more like appleseed to me, and that is one of their goals (if worded slightly differently). And seriously - you're going to start a potentially contentious political org to convince POLICE to sign up for your training programs? For the number of hours you sink into an org to get it off the ground you'd be 100 times better off putting the same energy into legitimate marketing such as youtube channels and one on one discussions with various agencies. It makes no sense from a business perspective - now, if these guys were brand new at the game I could see maybe they'd delude themselves into thinking that starting an org would not take a lot of work or that police agencies just LOVE people that participate in pro gun orgs as teachers.... but these guys have all been around the block at least once and nobody who has could possibly think this is an effective marketing tool for a gun training company when you look at the time involved. If they make any money off of it - they'd have made more doing REAL work on their company.

TheHydrant
08-11-2015, 02:08 PM
I'm fine with advocating guns for self defence only if the argument includes something along the lines of any and all means necessary. Carrying a knife (for example) for self defence is a big no no. I would rather push the acceptance of having the ability to use whatever is in reach to defend yourself without having to bear prosecution afterwards no matter what you use as a "weapon" be it a gun, knife, iron skillet, offensive language or sock full of marbles. Obviously guns are treated with more scrutiny, but seems like the moment a person reaches for any object they are no longer seen as victims.

Foxer
08-11-2015, 02:49 PM
I'm fine with advocating guns for self defence only if the argument includes something along the lines of any and all means necessary. Carrying a knife (for example) for self defence is a big no no. I would rather push the acceptance of having the ability to use whatever is in reach to defend yourself without having to bear prosecution afterwards no matter what you use as a "weapon" be it a gun, knife, iron skillet, offensive language or sock full of marbles. Obviously guns are treated with more scrutiny, but seems like the moment a person reaches for any object they are no longer seen as victims.

Well you're mixing up a couple of issues there. You CAN legally use a gun or knife for self defense right now, and there are court cases aplenty to support that. What you CAN"T do is carry one with that intent very easily.

AND - there's no real way to make it so that the cops can't charge you with something no matter what the law says, as Ian Thompson found out. Think about it - how do you word that law? "Can't be charged if the object was used in self defense'? Well - who decides what's self defense. A cop just says 'we don't think it was really self defense' and you're charged. That ALREADY happens. And if you just say nobody can be charged then all I have to do to kill someone is claim self defense and it can't go before a judge? That's obviously not going to fly either.

The police tendancy for punishment by process is a seperate problem. I would like to see a law that says that you can carry tools specifically for self defense and carry them conceailed if you want, even if it requires some sort of training or something or background check or the like.

TheHydrant
08-11-2015, 02:57 PM
Well you're mixing up a couple of issues there. You CAN legally use a gun or knife for self defense right now, and there are court cases aplenty to support that. What you CAN"T do is carry one with that intent very easily.

AND - there's no real way to make it so that the cops can't charge you with something no matter what the law says, as Ian Thompson found out. Think about it - how do you word that law? "Can't be charged if the object was used in self defense'? Well - who decides what's self defense. A cop just says 'we don't think it was really self defense' and you're charged. That ALREADY happens. And if you just say nobody can be charged then all I have to do to kill someone is claim self defense and it can't go before a judge? That's obviously not going to fly either.

The police tendancy for punishment by process is a seperate problem. I would like to see a law that says that you can carry tools specifically for self defense and carry them conceailed if you want, even if it requires some sort of training or something or background check or the like.

I'm not always good with my wordiness but you just said exactly what I meant. I have nothing mixed up.

CLW .45
08-12-2015, 10:17 AM
I find parts of #2, 3 and 8 a little, um, whacky. Specifically I'm referring to the references to "national defence" and "the militia". In Canada "the militia" is the reserves. I was a member and while they have since "rebranded" the army reserves it was quite literally called the Militia. There is no provision for citizens to create their own militia in Canada. And that asside I think any organization that publicly advocates civilian firearms ownership as being beneficial to the defence of Canada is going to get laughed at or worse seen as a bunch of whackos.

I think CLW is right in that we need to talk about self-defence as a legitimate reason to own firearms and this coaltion seems to be support that. But it will get nowhere fast with this "defence of Canada" stuff. Oh boy.

We may, once again, agree to disagree.

My father, and most other members of the Canadian military at the time, came to the service specifically to fight in WWII.

Some, like my father, were already proficient with firearms.

Many were not.

Those items with which you take exception are simply a recognition of the fact that wars are fought by civilians who join up for the duration, civilians who should already be proficient when they join.

The regular and reserve forces are but a small part of the whole, when considering defence of the nation.

CLW .45
08-12-2015, 10:29 AM
I'm fine with advocating guns for self defence only if the argument includes something along the lines of any and all means necessary. Carrying a knife (for example) for self defence is a big no no. I would rather push the acceptance of having the ability to use whatever is in reach to defend yourself without having to bear prosecution afterwards no matter what you use as a "weapon" be it a gun, knife, iron skillet, offensive language or sock full of marbles. Obviously guns are treated with more scrutiny, but seems like the moment a person reaches for any object they are no longer seen as victims.

The law already provides for as much force as is necessary to stop an attack, and force that may cause grievous bodily harm or death is justified if the attack threatens you, or someone else, with grievous bodily harm or death.

Any weapon or device is legitimate to use, even though it may not be legitimately possessed, as long as its use fits the standard above.

There will never be a provision that guarantees that your actions will not be scrutinized by the courts.

Nor should there be.

However, prosecution of an individual who has clearly acted appropriately should result in a significant penalty for the prosecutor.

CLW .45
08-12-2015, 10:34 AM
Sounds more like appleseed to me, and that is one of their goals (if worded slightly differently). And seriously - you're going to start a potentially contentious political org to convince POLICE to sign up for your training programs? For the number of hours you sink into an org to get it off the ground you'd be 100 times better off putting the same energy into legitimate marketing such as youtube channels and one on one discussions with various agencies. It makes no sense from a business perspective - now, if these guys were brand new at the game I could see maybe they'd delude themselves into thinking that starting an org would not take a lot of work or that police agencies just LOVE people that participate in pro gun orgs as teachers.... but these guys have all been around the block at least once and nobody who has could possibly think this is an effective marketing tool for a gun training company when you look at the time involved. If they make any money off of it - they'd have made more doing REAL work on their company.

NRA has an entire section devoted to police training. Whether that will work here is open to question.

However, significant numbers of police in Canada and abroad seek training from private institutions to supplement what they receive on the job.

Doug_M
08-12-2015, 10:36 AM
We may, once again, agree to disagree.

My father, and most other members of the Canadian military at the time, came to the service specifically to fight in WWII.

Some, like my father, were already proficient with firearms.

Many were not.

Those items with which you take exception are simply a recognition of the fact that wars are fought by civilians who join up for the duration, civilians who should already be proficient when they join.

The regular and reserve forces are but a small part of the whole, when considering defence of the nation.

I am keenly aware of Canadian history with regards to citizen soldiers making up the vast majority of those who fought for Canada in WWII. Up to the ending of the cold war that was still essentially Canada's plan (small trained reg force supplemented by massive militia in time of war). That was then, this is now. The way governments, both Lib and CPC, think about our armed forces and how they may be needed has not included the need for a massive call-up in quite some time. Nor does the public fear an invasion or expect a world war, at least in the same vein as WWI or II. Pick any random group in an office, work site or school and start talking about the need for civilians to be trained up in marksmanship in case the big one happens and you'll get rolled eyes at best.

TheHydrant
08-12-2015, 11:31 AM
The law already provides for as much force as is necessary to stop an attack, and force that may cause grievous bodily harm or death is justified if the attack threatens you, or someone else, with grievous bodily harm or death.

Any weapon or device is legitimate to use, even though it may not be legitimately possessed, as long as its use fits the standard above.

There will never be a provision that guarantees that your actions will not be scrutinized by the courts.

Nor should there be.

However, prosecution of an individual who has clearly acted appropriately should result in a significant penalty for the prosecutor.

I understand that, but I would hope at some point a scenario could play out something like this:

"Thank you for coming so quickly, officer. Only 45 minutes?? You must have had your siren on. Here is my ID proving that this is my home address. Here is the broken window that the intruder was climbing in through while my wife and young son were asleep. And here, a few feet from the window starting to ascend the staircase is the corpse. If you roll him over you should find the three bullet entry wounds in his chest. Oh, why wouldn't he stop when I ordered him to leave at once? Why did he keep coming towards me even after I warned him I was armed?"
Officer: "Calm down, Sir. You did the right thing. You may have saved the lives of your family, and in a world that isn't completely upside-down, that makes YOU.....a hero. I will need you to make a complete statement, but I see no reason that I would need to press charges against you, law abiding firearms owner. I can hardly wait to tell the boys about your brave actions down at the precinct. I salute you!"

that is the world I one day want to live in....where the prosecution could actually end at the investigation level.

Zinilin
08-12-2015, 11:58 AM
"Thank you for coming, officer..."

You: My lawyer advised me to make this firearms and my identification available for your investigation; and not to make any other statements or answer any questions.
Officer: Where is your bathroom?
You: <silence>

CLW .45
08-12-2015, 03:11 PM
Y
I understand that, but I would hope at some point a scenario could play out something like this:

"Thank you for coming so quickly, officer. Only 45 minutes?? You must have had your siren on. Here is my ID proving that this is my home address. Here is the broken window that the intruder was climbing in through while my wife and young son were asleep. And here, a few feet from the window starting to ascend the staircase is the corpse. If you roll him over you should find the three bullet entry wounds in his chest. Oh, why wouldn't he stop when I ordered him to leave at once? Why did he keep coming towards me even after I warned him I was armed?"
Officer: "Calm down, Sir. You did the right thing. You may have saved the lives of your family, and in a world that isn't completely upside-down, that makes YOU.....a hero. I will need you to make a complete statement, but I see no reason that I would need to press charges against you, law abiding firearms owner. I can hardly wait to tell the boys about your brave actions down at the precinct. I salute you!"

that is the world I one day want to live in....where the prosecution could actually end at the investigation level.

It can now.

However, don't expect the officer to pat you on the back.

He won't get a pat on the back if involved in a self defence shooting either.

greywolf67nt
08-12-2015, 06:40 PM
If nothing else, can we agree that this niche market might be getting a little saturated?

This is exactly what I was thinking.

lone-wolf
08-12-2015, 06:43 PM
Congrats Rod

3MTA3
08-12-2015, 07:27 PM
I guess at least one "Mapleseed" has taken place already. Would be nice to see more. http://newshootercanada.ca/?p=567


......
I know more more are being planned currently qnd organization is taking place. -I like the model, educate and inform and increase the number of shooters -normalixe the activity while emphasizing safety.

Foxer
08-12-2015, 07:28 PM
I know more more are being planned currently qnd organization is taking place. -I like the model, educate and inform and increase the number of shooters -normalixe the activity while emphasizing safety.

I think you're right. I like the concept too.

CLW .45
08-12-2015, 10:37 PM
I am keenly aware of Canadian history with regards to citizen soldiers making up the vast majority of those who fought for Canada in WWII. Up to the ending of the cold war that was still essentially Canada's plan (small trained reg force supplemented by massive militia in time of war). That was then, this is now. The way governments, both Lib and CPC, think about our armed forces and how they may be needed has not included the need for a massive call-up in quite some time. Nor does the public fear an invasion or expect a world war, at least in the same vein as WWI or II. Pick any random group in an office, work site or school and start talking about the need for civilians to be trained up in marksmanship in case the big one happens and you'll get rolled eyes at best.

Doesn't change the fact that any major conflict will require a massive call-up.

The reference to militia is only misplaced if you believe that we shouldn't talk about anything but our "hobby."

lone-wolf
08-12-2015, 10:41 PM
Rod is apparently the President, if uh, that wasn't mentioned yet.

Mark-II
08-13-2015, 12:02 AM
That's good, so long as he keeps the loose cannon away from any social or real media

Doug_M
08-13-2015, 04:07 AM
Doesn't change the fact that any major conflict will require a massive call-up.

The reference to militia is only misplaced if you believe that we shouldn't talk about anything but our "hobby."

I don't believe that at all and in fact have said a few times here and "there" that I agree with you that we need to talk more about self-defence. But the term "militia" today has a negative connotation unfortunately. Even the CF have distanced themselves from the term, renaming the Militia to the Reserves.

Doug_M
08-13-2015, 04:09 AM
Rod is apparently the President, if uh, that wasn't mentioned yet.


Really? Didn't catch that. Good news. Rod could be president of "the drunken sailors society advocating for free guns and booze" and I'd support that (being a former drunken sailor myself).

A. LaHaye
08-13-2015, 06:48 AM
That's a good start - but it falls short of what i'm talking about. Don't get me wrong - i think it's a great thing - but prepaid legal only does so much and there's much more we can do to help combat that problem. Including talking to police forces before hand, doing publicity stuff when it does happen to 'shame' police and such, and to educate cops on the real laws (we've seen that - "non restricteds must be cased and locked right?")

I'm just saying there's a lot of areas that an org could make it's focus or one of it's focuses that would benefit form an organized effort.

I think publicity of this type would do a lot for us. Perhaps not so much "shaming" (perhaps too strong a word) police, but shaming the system and highlighting the ways in which we're mistreated at great tax-payer expense. We don't necessarily need to "bring people over to our side" I think we just need people to become more aware of the uses/abuses of the law and say to themselves "geez, that's stupid, that dosen't make any sense."

I'd always thought a TV spot depicting loveable old grandpa being arrested or dragged through the legal wringer for some trumped up charge under C-68, could go a long way.

RangeBob
08-21-2015, 04:10 PM
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/76918135/Screen%20Shot%202015-08-10%20at%2012.53.29%20PM.png

Coke
08-21-2015, 05:50 PM
Interesting...

Thanks, RangeBob.

Canada_Phil
08-23-2015, 05:26 AM
Seeing as it's Bevins, and all the NFA Reloaded people that cut up their NFA cards.....I'm
Sorry to hear Rod is being associated with a clown show.

Yeah....

This takes DOWN Rod's "stature" for me. This is completely opposite to what he made me think he stood for.

Petamocto
08-23-2015, 06:32 AM
This takes DOWN Rod's "stature" for me. This is completely opposite to what he made me think he stood for.

Just because he's associated with them doesn't mean he agrees with everything they've done.

I won't say anymore, and I'll let the man speak for himself, but I think your conclusion is false.

lone-wolf
08-23-2015, 09:12 AM
being the president of their offshoot seems to be pretty heavily associated.
Not that I have a problem with any of it.

Mark-II
08-23-2015, 09:57 AM
I'd be happier to hear of Rod getting involved with the cssa rather than throwing in with the Bevins fan club.

Shawn, as the public face of the NFA, was an embarrassment.

And, face it, if he hadn't been sacked, this crap with the NFA would have never gone down, whatever Sheldon allegedly did or didn't do.

I'm with Rory

Foxer
08-23-2015, 11:39 AM
I'd be happier to hear of Rod getting involved with the cssa rather than throwing in with the Bevins fan club.

Shawn, as the public face of the NFA, was an embarrassment.

And, face it, if he hadn't been sacked, this crap with the NFA would have never gone down, whatever Sheldon allegedly did or didn't do.



I'm not sure that's true. Honestly, there's a lot of evidence that this confrontation had been brewing for some time and was going to come to a head one way or another. He may have been the spark, but the gasoline was already spilled and if it hadn't been that it would have been something else.

I quite agree beavins should not be the public face for anything, but that doesn't mean he has nothing to offer. Rod's background and what we know of him suggests that he's not going into this blind or without reservations, but obviously he thinks there's a chance to do something positive, and if that doesn't work out then he'll step back. We'll see where things go.

Canada_Phil
08-25-2015, 09:23 AM
Must be nice to start a "rights" org with yourself as its self anointed leader!?? And what amounts to your clique of "enablers" being directly under you.

In some circles, this would be likened to a defacto PYRAMID SCHEME.

If anyone recalls, the NFA had declared that Bevins was its only "PAID EMPLOYEE". In the last public disclosure the NFA advised its "salaries" were in excess of $300,000... A huge jump over the prior year which was roughly $150,000ish??

So... Any guess as to what his "PAY" would be here?

Give me a break... I for one have had it with every freaking self appointed know it all starting a "rights org". In case anyone missed it, you HAVE the best "Rights Org" possible, and it just happens to be the Governing Party in this Country!... But that could all change if the CPC base is apathetic.

Foxer
08-25-2015, 09:38 AM
Must be nice to start a "rights" org with yourself as its self anointed leader!?? And what amounts to your clique of "enablers" being directly under you.

In some circles, this would be likened to a defacto PYRAMID SCHEME.

Well no, a pyramid scheme is something quite different.

BUT - there are valid concerns about any org where a group of people are setting it up who are already 'friends' or the like. The devil will be in the details - specifically how the bylaws and voting structure and operational org chart are set up. IF they're done in such a way so as to protect the initial participants to the point where' it's more like a privately owned corp, then there's an issue. If it's done in such a way that it's reasonably fair and democratic and no one person can hold power like we saw in the nfa then that's a very different fish.


If anyone recalls, the NFA had declared that Bevins was its only "PAID EMPLOYEE". In the last public disclosure the NFA advised its "salaries" were in excess of $300,000... A huge jump over the prior year which was roughly $150,000ish??

So... Any guess as to what his "PAY" would be here?

First off - you misread those numbers. Bevin was the NFA's only permanent paid employee working for the org, but the 'salaries' figures also included things like the cost of accounting and such which may not have been permanent employees or may have been providing supporting services (janitor for example). Bevins wasn't making 300 grand.

However - to address the question if we have to 'guess' what ANYONE'S making or what the total overall salaries are, then we have to be very leery of the org in the first place. Again - the devil's in the details, if how they're spending the money isn't fairly clear on pretty much ALL their activities people are going to have to ask whether or not they want to participate. I'm not excited about getting involved with any more 'secret squirrel' org stuff, and while i know that details in many areas will have to be left somewhat vague they CAN pass a budget that outlines salaries and what positions those are for, and how much is going to 'lobbying' and how much to 'advertising' etc etc and produce a report at the end of the year showing actual expenditures in those areas.

It's not like we get a t-4 for each of the paid people in the CSSA either :) But - it is possible to see if over all salaries are in line with the various positions they have.

Give me a break... I for one have had it with every freaking self appointed know it all starting a "rights org". In case anyone missed it, you HAVE the best "Rights Org" possible, and it just happens to be the Governing Party in this Country!... But that could all change if the CPC base is apathetic.


Give me a break... I for one have had it with every freaking self appointed know it all starting a "rights org". In case anyone missed it, you HAVE the best "Rights Org" possible, and it just happens to be the Governing Party in this Country!... But that could all change if the CPC base is apathetic.


Well it's a given that any org that IS started will be started by a self apointed know it all. Someone who knows nothing won't be interested in doing it. :)

And you're absolutely correct that we need to participate with the CPC on a huge scale and make sure we're at the table there. But there's many things the CPC can't do for us. We do need our own orgs dedicated to our agendas to make headway. We might argue that the CSSA is that org, or we may argue that we need more than one because the CSSA doesn't cover everything.

I think there's room for the RIGHT org to do much good even with the CSSA in place - is THIS the 'right org? I have no idea. I haven't seen what they're going to put on the table yet. At this point tho they've gone far enough down the road that it's worth seeing where they're going to end up when it's all put together.

[I'm sure not saying 'support them' - i'm just saying don't dismiss them till we see what they're offering.

Canada_Phil
08-25-2015, 09:46 AM
I CAN dismiss them outright...

As I already have already endured enough press statements, Facebook postings & posted videos on ALL concerned to have arrived at a decision.

Foxer
08-25-2015, 09:55 AM
I CAN dismiss them outright...

As I already have already endured enough press statements, Facebook postings & posted videos on ALL concerned to have arrived at a decision.
Well you CAN vote ndp too, but that doesn't mean it's a good idea :) :)

Maybe you've seen something I haven't and if so fair enough, but really the only things that will count is their final org chart, their bylaws and regulations and structure, and the specific 'plan' they have to actually do something. Those things I have not seen at all. What people say here and there means little, if the thing has good structure and a good plan it'll straighten out and fly right on it's own most likely. Without it, it doesn't matter what people are saying, it's going to go off the rails sooner or later.

Canada_Phil
08-25-2015, 10:16 AM
Maybe you've seen something I haven't and if so fair enough,

Perhaps you had an aluminum pot over your head while banging the side with a steel soup ladle the whole time?

Cuz it really, really wasn't hard to miss.
:D

Rory McCanuck
08-25-2015, 11:00 AM
Lol

Foxer
08-25-2015, 06:05 PM
Perhaps you had an aluminum pot over your head while banging the side with a steel soup ladle the whole time?

Cuz it really, really wasn't hard to miss.
:D

Hey, i've been civil enough and addressed your posts with genuine thought and reasoned arguments. If all you're going to do is throw some insults around then you're not taking this very seriously, and that's largely why we don't get decent orgs.

To the best of my knowledge they're still setting up shop - so what's the problem you're seeing? I'm not on face book so i haven't seen anything there obviously, and i'm unaware of any videos. What's the issue?

Gaidheal
08-25-2015, 06:09 PM
in before the penguin

3MTA3
08-25-2015, 06:25 PM
http://www.firearmrights.ca/#about

Foxer
08-25-2015, 06:32 PM
http://www.firearmrights.ca/#about

Yeah - that level of detail about the org falls under the heading of 'nice hair tho' :)

I just haven't seen much concrete about what the org is really about or how they're structured or what they're going to do. I'll wait to see that (or at least SOMETHING) before I decide to hate them :)

3MTA3
08-25-2015, 07:06 PM
Yeah- haven't seen the videos yet.
https://www.facebook.com/CanadianCoalitionFirearmRights/timeline?ref=page_internal

Canada_Phil
08-26-2015, 08:21 AM
Hey, i've been civil enough

Really?

Wow.

Foxer
08-26-2015, 08:27 AM
Really?

Wow.

That's all you've got. No actual links to any information or videos.

Wow indeed.

jwirecom109
08-26-2015, 08:57 AM
Back to topic on hand.

conger
08-26-2015, 09:16 AM
I'm late to the topic, but I read through most of it. I'm going to look at this new org with some hope that it can become something good for firearms owners and not turn into a side show. Have to wait and see at this point.

Sent from my SGH-I747M using Tapatalk

Sodburner
09-16-2015, 12:14 AM
I just scanned the last two pages of posts on this thread and I'm pretty disappointed no wonder the anti's make so much headway in the public arena. This kind of crap is why I avoid cgn I was hoping for a higher class of gun crowd. Guess not.

Steveo9mm
09-16-2015, 12:31 AM
I just scanned the last two pages of posts on this thread and I'm pretty disappointed no wonder the anti's make so much headway in the public arena. This kind of crap is why I avoid cgn I was hoping for a higher class of gun crowd. Guess not.

what I miss? does it involve booze?

3MTA3
09-16-2015, 04:32 AM
I just scanned the last two pages of posts on this thread and I'm pretty disappointed no wonder the anti's make so much headway in the public arena. This kind of crap is why I avoid cgn I was hoping for a higher class of gun crowd. Guess not.

Sometimes they do a kind of CGN lite, more often recently, usually better.

Mark-II
09-17-2015, 12:56 PM
I just scanned the last two pages of posts on this thread and I'm pretty disappointed no wonder the anti's make so much headway in the public arena. This kind of crap is why I avoid cgn I was hoping for a higher class of gun crowd. Guess not.

Or give Life of Brian a watch for a bit of insight into why we are a bit cynical in having Yet Another Org...

Foxer
09-17-2015, 01:42 PM
Or give Life of Brian a watch for a bit of insight into why we are a bit cynical in having Yet Another Org...

Cynical is good. Keeps you asking the right questions and not drinking the Kool-aid. God knows I'm cynical about just about everything :) But it would be a shame to just dismiss and throw away something that has potential value until it's at least been tested, and it's a little early for that.

Like it or not, the nfa is pretty much baked and the CSSA does not fill all of our needs. There is room for another GOOD org in our community - if we just dismiss them all before we even see what they're putting on the table we'll never find one to address those issues.

Doug_M
09-17-2015, 04:24 PM
Rod's video in his 2 million views thread mentions some of the way forward for this org and a big part seems to be a hearts and minds campaign. Well there is no one better qualified to run such a campaign than Rod if you ask me. That alone is worth supporting.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

webster
09-17-2015, 09:55 PM
I'm optimistic with Rod at the helm, as long as he keeps Bevins strictly behind the scenes. No disrespect to the guy, he's got passion for the cause in spades and I appreciate that, but his approach is not palatable to the "80" in the old 10-80-10 equation. A key part of our national identity to a lot of Canadians is that we're "Not America." If they even sense you're taking inspiration from the US in any way they'll shut you out. Merely mentioning that I own guns at all risks that reaction from a number of folks that I've interacted with. Public opinion has to be won tactfully and gradually, and Bevins is kind of a sledgehammer when it comes to PR.

lone-wolf
09-17-2015, 10:02 PM
Shawn has stepped aside and is focusing on his new business and family iirc

Mark-II
09-19-2015, 10:47 AM
Cynical is good. Keeps you asking the right questions and not drinking the Kool-aid. God knows I'm cynical about just about everything :) But it would be a shame to just dismiss and throw away something that has potential value until it's at least been tested, and it's a little early for that.

Like it or not, the nfa is pretty much baked and the CSSA does not fill all of our needs. There is room for another GOOD org in our community - if we just dismiss them all before we even see what they're putting on the table we'll never find one to address those issues.

I will grant you your points as very valid.

Bevins was my personal sticking point. If he's faded into the background then there's hope.

Since as far as I'm concerned he was half of the equation for the decline and fall of the NFA. And this was BEFORE the failed putsch.

Foxer
09-19-2015, 11:14 AM
Bevins was my personal sticking point. If he's faded into the background then there's hope.
Yeah, that was my initial reaction as well. My first thought was i want no part of anything he's 'leading'. truth be told i'm not excited about any org that has anything to do with any of the former 'key players' in the nfa because I feel they all bear some of the responsibility and the last thing we want is to put blood sweat and tears into another org only to see a repeat.

But - I'm CAUTIOUSLY optimistic considering Rod's involvement, and given that people are voicing their concerns and such which may well get addressed in their structure (like how to handle disputes and to avoid the nfa's debacle). And not because Rod's a nice guy - he is and that's great but that's meaningless when you're putting together an org. And not just because he's knowledgeable about firearms. Obviously he is and that's nice too, but again of little value when addressing the structure of an org and it's activities.

I'm cautiously optimistic because I know (for those who didn't) that Rod has a lot of experience with structuring businesses, and a lot of that translates fairly well to structuring an org. I think we can also agree he has a great deal of skill with interacting with the public - his videos are professional and well laid out, he has an attention to detail, he speaks VERY well, and he's got a successful youtube channel which does require a certain native skill for how to appeal to your target market. He's practical and tactical, not pie in the sky or chest-beating. So - the talent is there to cook up something that might very well deserve an honest chance.

Now - he's not the only person involved and it's hard to say at this point what the final product will be. But - I'd like to see it. The ingredients are there for something exciting, and I'd like to see if the fundamentals are there when the org is ready for the big time and has it's plan and structure in place. I'm sure not ready to throw my backing into that org yet - but i'm also not ready to turn my back on it yet either.

The devil's in the details - lets just keep an open mind till we see where the bouncing balls land is all i'm saying i guess.

Rory McCanuck
09-19-2015, 11:51 AM
I will grant you your points as very valid.

Bevins was my personal sticking point. If he's faded into the background then there's hope.

Since as far as I'm concerned he was half of the equation for the decline and fall of the NFA. And this was BEFORE the failed putsch.
I've seen a couple of posts on facebook suggesting that Bevins has gotten out of the gun lobbying business, and is concentrating on his family and business venture.

Mark-II
09-19-2015, 04:27 PM
Same thing/rumour I heard.

The problem was that he was an agitator and rabble rouser given the job of a diplomat, which requires a different skill set and demeanour.

I like Rod, though. Pretty level headed. And if he's focused on the competition/tactical side of things (which does bother me because it's a narrow focus that may work against wide acceptance) it also balances out the "fuddier" side of other groups.

...just keep the "Up The Revolution!" rhetoric out of it, because that alienates the real audience.

CivilAdvantage
09-20-2015, 11:09 PM
Hey Gents,
There has been a tremendous amount of work done over the last 30 days. We are almost there, about 2 weeks to go. I think most will be quite pleased.

Hang in there.

FALover
09-21-2015, 03:26 AM
If you have seen the photos of my leg/knee you will understand when I say " I may not have two weeks".:eek1:

Hidyn
09-22-2015, 09:21 PM
I just wanted to throw in that while I came onto the scene too late to know anything really about the NFA, I have watched a lot of Rods videos, and will back anything he does. I find him genuine, and he's got the winning personality that will get a lot of people to listen to him.

Rod Giltaca for Prime Minister! [/fanboy]

Doug_M
09-24-2015, 05:32 AM
Policy has been released. Lot's to digest. For those without FaceBook:

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/94qep6ol1rcqxbc/AAD4D3Zl-o81HJbSTMf6QQ6ia?dl=0

PS That is my dropbox account so you're not going to get virus or pawned by a Chinese hacker group ;)

Marcel
09-24-2015, 09:30 AM
#3 is obviously the "No Compromise" camp leaf branch, but way too Yankee for up here.


Well, we should have started this 50 or 60 years ago, then Kookier would not have the ear of certain people today.

conger
09-24-2015, 09:45 AM
Policy has been released. Lot's to digest. For those without FaceBook:

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/94qep6ol1rcqxbc/AAD4D3Zl-o81HJbSTMf6QQ6ia?dl=0

PS That is my dropbox account so you're not going to get virus or pawned by a Chinese hacker group ;)
Can't get it to work. None of the docs will open.

Sent from my SGH-I747M using Tapatalk

Edward Teach
09-24-2015, 09:55 AM
...and as always, mandatory training is a deal breaker for me. Same goes for licensing.
One should NEVER have to jump through hoops in order to own property or protect themselves.
I could maybe grudgingly accept licensing and a demonstration of competence for use in the public sphere, but that should be independent of ownership and possession.

Doug_M
09-24-2015, 09:58 AM
Can't get it to work. None of the docs will open.

Sent from my SGH-I747M using Tapatalk

Might be a mobile issue? I just tried on a desktop computer (not logged in of course). I get the sign in or sign up window but when I close that I can open all the links.

GaryCaine
09-24-2015, 10:00 AM
Can't get it to work. None of the docs will open.

Sent from my SGH-I747M using Tapatalk

I had the same problem until I downloaded them as a zip file and extracted them.

Click on Download

GaryCaine
09-24-2015, 10:00 AM
I see a problem with your safe storage in that it states

“The container, receptacle, vault, safe, or room should be constructed so that it cannot readily be
broken open or into.”

Who gets to decide if my storage room can be readily broken into?

RangeBob
09-24-2015, 10:23 AM
Can't get it to work. None of the docs will open.

Try this
http://www.rangebob.com/CCFR/Policy/home.htm

All the PDF docs are there, as is a zip of them all, and the browser interface should be much simpler and compatible with everything.

lone-wolf
09-24-2015, 10:34 AM
...and as always, mandatory training is a deal breaker for me. Same goes for licensing.
One should NEVER have to jump through hoops in order to own property or protect themselves.
I could maybe grudgingly accept licensing and a demonstration of competence for use in the public sphere, but that should be independent of ownership and possession.

IMO Hunting license covers common public usage.

Hotdog
09-24-2015, 11:15 AM
Just a comment on the logo, since that was the very first thing I saw upon opening the document. It looks like someone shot a hole in the Maple leaf. Firearm organizations just have to stop morphing gun parts and maple leafs. Just don't do it. The logo is politically tone deaf. Stop with the maple leaf and gun parts. Hire a professional for graphic design. Rant over. Good luck to all.

RangeBob
09-24-2015, 11:26 AM
...and as always, mandatory training is a deal breaker for me. Same goes for licensing.
One should NEVER have to jump through hoops in order to own property or protect themselves.
I could maybe grudgingly accept licensing and a demonstration of competence for use in the public sphere, but that should be independent of ownership and possession.

Didn't the United States Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia recently that several of DCís gun registration requirements are unconstitutional, including making possession dependent upon passing a test of knowledge of the Districtís firearms laws.

Marcel
09-24-2015, 02:58 PM
Governments only take on the idea that they can prevent us from defending our lives and prosecuting us if we have no choice BUT to defend our lives because they get away with it.

We have 50 to 60 years of crap to catch and dispel. BIG job ahead of us, but I am in for the long haul and will NEVER give up.

CivilAdvantage
09-25-2015, 08:52 PM
Here's a new video boys, creating controversy everywhere.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_suRWVKVq0

CivilAdvantage
09-25-2015, 08:52 PM
I need a haircut but that's not the controversial thing....

Foxer
09-25-2015, 09:29 PM
I need a haircut but that's not the controversial thing....

I thought it was that you're wearing a plain shirt :)

lone-wolf
09-25-2015, 09:33 PM
The goals sound good to me.

Foxer
09-25-2015, 10:01 PM
Well, as everyone knows I usually dig for the pro's and con's in just about everything we see or hear, and i'm not afraid to be critical of a gun org :)

But honestly, Rod has hit it out of the park with his comments and there's just nothing there I wouldn't agree with pretty much 100 percent. With the possible exeption of 'it hasn't been tried before' or 'it's been tried but with no success'. No gun org tried it, but there was indeed a very powerful grass roots movement that we had going at CGN many years ago when the public still supported the gun registry and I can say with certainty it DID make a difference. But like many grass roots movements it was too hard to keep it going and since it stopped we have DESPERATELY needed an org to stand up and continue that work, and all our political efforts hinge on how the general public sees us and what impression they have of gun owners and gun laws.

So to hear Rod speak of it like that - he's dead right, he couldn't be more right, and if this org can actually do things that are positive in that respect they would be worthy of our support and would be a huge asset. I'm not sure how they plan to do that, but if they can ... wow.

The devil is in the details and I'll still want to see the bylaws and dispute resolution mechanisms and the plan and such, but I have to say that is the first time in a long time I've actually felt a twinge of excitement about a gun org. Nobody is currently doing this work, it needs to be done, it's the foundation that we build everything else on. If they can do it - then our cause will move forward.

conger
09-25-2015, 10:01 PM
I like that.

Sent from my SGH-I747M using Tapatalk

RangeBob
09-26-2015, 12:30 AM
from elsewhere


Let's find a producer and crowd fund a documentary of our own. Show real unbiased stats and positive pro gun news. Show youth learning, speak to Olympian shooters, experts( not the CFO sort) get Dr Mauser in there, classroom shots of firearms courses, native hunters, rangers etc. Call it. Guns in Canada "the real truth".

Foxer
09-26-2015, 12:37 AM
from elsewhere

It ain't the making that's hard. It's getting the networks to show it that is a challenge.

speedloader
09-26-2015, 04:43 AM
oh finally, sounds good Rod!
looking forward to being a member

Petamocto
09-26-2015, 04:59 AM
Rod, I'm very happy for you that you had the drive and contacts to see this through.

3MTA3
09-27-2015, 09:00 AM
Hear,hear!!

TJSpeller
09-27-2015, 09:26 AM
Rod is very well spoken. A great representative for us.

Though we've discussed it plenty in the forums, this is the first time I've heard someone with a significant audience speak about the danger that the NDP plan to transfer firearms laws to the provinces and municipalities posts to us. In my mind this is the single greatest threat to our future. Overnight after that happens, vast swaths of Canada, containing the large majority of its population, will find legislation against gun ownership that is far worse than anything we have face before.

I will join for sure. I hope they get their ducks in a row regarding their mission / purpose statement and their bylaws.

Steveo9mm
09-28-2015, 01:08 AM
good going Rod, your making Foxer twinge with excitement.

OhCanada
09-28-2015, 05:40 AM
In martial arts we talk about two things: Not thinking about just the surface of the target but rather focus past the target and drive the force through and past the target. Also, not counting on just one strike working but throwing out multiple stikes, rather than throw one and go, "Uh did that have the desired effect" before throwing out the second.

I think that is where Rod and this group is at. Some points may seem extreme to some owners but they are punching through to make sure they reach at least some of their target goals because they are focused on not just the surface of the most popular gun owner goals. They are also going after more areas and goals than most gun owner groups so that they will at least obtain some of those goals.

We have too many gun owners with a narrow view of "I only hunt" or "I only punch paper", and those owners don't stand up for the rights of the other owners, just self-interest.

We need to make gun ownership a RIGHT in Canada. A right is universal, unlike the PM, it is just untrue that you can have a right in one country but have it be a privilege in another.

Foxer
09-28-2015, 09:07 AM
good going Rod, your making Foxer twinge with excitement.
Here now...

DanN
09-28-2015, 02:22 PM
Saw this on the NFA Reloaded Facebook page:



Claude Colgan
A few weeks ago, someone told me about the launch of a new firearms organization. I was committed to the National Firearms Association, but I was curious enough to listen to him.

He told me that they had found directors in every province, and the names he gave me were people I recognized as being NFA supporters. I was surprised when he told me that I would be one of the directors from Quebec, which is something I had heard from others in the days leading up to his call. After hearing his pitch, I told him I was not interested. I was disappointed about how my name was being passed around to deceive others into supporting their new organization, which I believe was done with the knowledge of the other organizers. The truth is that I have never had anything to do with the Canadian Coalition for Firearm Rights, and the organizers owe me a personal apology.

However, I know quite well that one officer's rogue misconduct does not always represent the whole organization, so I waited for more to develop before commenting.

Today, after so many people have shown interest in the CCFR, its chairman has shown us its hidden agenda. It is an organization setup to promote the gun control policies of the federal Liberals. It is an attempt to moderate the gun rights debate in Canada. The CCFR and its unelected directors support the licensing and restriction of firearms owners. They support the criminalization of law-abiding Canadian gun owners. Most of you know already that I do not agree with these policies. I support the NO COMPROMISE approach of the National Firearms Association, and I encourage you to do the same. It is the best chance we have for fair treatment of firearms owners in Canada.

While many of you share my disappointment in the corporate developments in the NFA over the past few months, I am committed to resolving them both in and out of court (yes, the court case is in full force). The NFA directors election will be starting soon, and each of you has an important role to play in getting the NFA back on track. It is important that all NFA members vote for candidates that will stand for honesty, integrity, and competence in the fight for firearms rights.

No compromise !



Mark Louie
Wow! Such displays of animosity over the past couple of days.

The Coalition loses a couple of directors, Claude makes a post and heads explode. I have had a number of conversations with some of those involved with the Coalition and have remained publicly quiet until now.

The only thing that the Coalition has achieved so far if to further fracture the firearms community and act as a temporary diversion, keeping activists away from important activities like helping our ONLY friends in the HOC during an election and diverting attention away from Clare's Hijacking of the NFA.

For the record I am profoundly unimpressed with the Coalition's support of licensing. Although this serves the personal and business interests of some of the players within the Coalition, I have personally sent letters and had a number of conversations with Members of Parliament regarding licensing as well as a number of other ill conceived "gun control" measures over the past few years and I'm not about to soften my position just so that I can fit in with a new club even if all the "cool kids" are involved.

I certainly hope for the sake of all gun owners that the Coalition gets it together soon, the last thing that we need is another Fudd group going on television and legitimizing any of the failed policies contained in C-68.

Swampdonkey
09-28-2015, 03:05 PM
I think I'll stay on my team of one, nurturing gun ownership as an individual.

The BCWF is enough for me.

CivilAdvantage
09-28-2015, 03:19 PM
Saw this on the NFA Reloaded Facebook page:

We are an organization that has intelligence and class. I haven't been able to find that anywhere else. This sickening behavior is the reason our community is fractured and completely ineffective. Burning up every hour of effort only to try to destroy fictitious enemies within our own community and nothing to work toward our goals. Check out my single response to Claude's incoherent post. And in fact, check out not only the [exclusively dignified] responses of the CCFR team members but the punitive responses from the R5's own supporters. With this behavior, they have rallied the most toxic of our community and alienated the positive, reasonable and altruistic in their ranks. We experienced a surge of field officer applications over the weekend and many other offers of help.

Instead of spending the weekend spewing gratuitous venom at members of our own community, we formed budgets, worked on the website and dedicated a few hours to our awareness campaign plan.

If the R5's mission is to create enemies and lose supporters then they are "winning". I would have hoped to work with them but so far I've been labeled corrupt, a liberal party infiltrator & dishonest along with characterizations like "pinko", "communist" "Lie-beral".

After all the trash that was thrown our way unprovoked, not one of our people, made not one personally disparaging remark or name-called not one person in retaliation. I am deeply proud of our team's discipline and dignity because that is the type of organization the CCFR is, not in words but in practice.

I would invite you to review the NFA Reloaded Facebook Group and go see for yourself.

If any of you would like to help us, feel fee to contact me anytime.

DanN
09-28-2015, 03:42 PM
Hey Rod - Thank you for the prompt reply.


This sickening behavior is the reason our community is fractured and completely ineffective.

It would be impossible for me to agree more with that statement.

When I made that post I thought to myself that it seemed like a pretty clear "face-palm" moment. When I read your reply above I puckered up a bit and though "oh s__t.. this doesn't come off the way I had intended"...

But then I read your post. And I'm glad I had inadvertently given you an opportunity to respond in the manner that you did. Your reply is well written and professional, as is everything I have seen you present.

Keep up the good work. I would like to help at some point, but I'm not entirely sure what I'd have to offer. Perhaps ypou could let us know what kind of help you need.

Doug_M
09-28-2015, 04:38 PM
I'm going to join and support this new org not because of their stance on this or that, but because a large focus is going to be on educating the broader public. Nothing will get changed, repealed or improved until much of the gen pop is enlightened. Rod is the right spokesperson for this and the CCFR will help make that happen.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

CivilAdvantage
09-28-2015, 04:45 PM
I'm going to join and support this new org not because of their stance on this or that, but because a large focus is going to be on educating the broader public. Nothing will get changed, repealed or improved until much of the gen pop is enlightened. Rod is the right spokesperson for this and the CCFR will help make that happen.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Thank you Doug. Oct 7th at 6pm EST!!!

conger
09-28-2015, 05:07 PM
That kind of behaviour and attitude within the NFA is what made me give up on them. It was obvious what was intended by those two posts.
Good work Rod. I'm looking forward to seeing some good things.

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Coke
09-28-2015, 06:09 PM
I was wondering what the approach of this org would be. I have been away for a couple days, with no internet, and am very happy to see this video coming back onto the site. Rod, I think you've hit it out of the park with this. I have left the NFA, due to the problems of the last while, and I don't think they are salvageable. I am looking forward to becoming a member of this new organization. I hope it stays true to where it starts out. And if I can help (I'm in Ontario), let me know. Cheers...

kennymo
09-28-2015, 06:14 PM
That $35 I didn't send to the NFA is probably some of the best money I never spent. It seems to give me an unending feeling of satisfaction....

I am quite interested to see the end result of this. Very happy to have the focus on PR and sanity. Despite my early reservations due to some of the names involved, I'm excited.....

CivilAdvantage
09-28-2015, 06:21 PM
I was wondering what the approach of this org would be. I have been away for a couple days, with no internet, and am very happy to see this video coming back onto the site. Rod, I think you've hit it out of the park with this. I have left the NFA, due to the problems of the last while, and I don't think they are salvageable. I am looking forward to becoming a member of this new organization. I hope it stays true to where it starts out. And if I can help (I'm in Ontario), let me know. Cheers...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_suRWVKVq0

Baddog377
09-28-2015, 07:07 PM
I'm going to join and support this new org not because of their stance on this or that, but because a large focus is going to be on educating the broader public. Nothing will get changed, repealed or improved until much of the gen pop is enlightened. Rod is the right spokesperson for this and the CCFR will help make that happen.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

That right there is the answer, Public acceptance ,education and growing our numbers. It has always been the answer.

Foxer
09-28-2015, 07:25 PM
That right there is the answer, Public acceptance ,education and growing our numbers. It has always been the answer.

yep. All else springs from that. If the public is with us, it's fairly easy to affect change. If the public is against us, it's virtually impossible. Public awareness efforts have played a large role in the past, and helped kill any support for the gun registry and helped keep support for new 'gun control' to a minimum. That's why dawson and moncton et al have not resulted in any support from the public for more gun control.

There is a real lack of that right now in our community, most of the efforts being made are by total grass roots people and while their efforts are greatly appreciated, they simply cannot have the scale of impact we need without an organized effort. That would be huge.

As to Claude and the NFA 'furious directors', the very fact they're so angry about it is pretty convincing that the new org is on the right track :) Screw 'em.

As always, i'm cautiously guarded till i've seen all the details but i'm also excited where this could go and i'm eager to see it up and running.

kennymo
09-28-2015, 07:55 PM
As to Claude and the NFA 'furious directors', the very fact they're so angry about it is pretty convincing that the new org is on the right track Screw 'em.



Best $35 savings EVER. The lyrics to 'Satisfaction' would be a hell of a lot different if Justin's dad had ever not sent $35 to the NFA....just sayin'....

FlyingHigh
09-28-2015, 07:56 PM
As always, i'm cautiously guarded till i've seen all the details but i'm also excited where this could go and i'm eager to see it up and running.

X2. I'm looking forward to seeing how this new organization pans out. :)

As for Rod's point about being a member of all the organizations...I disagree. The CSSA and CCFR if it turns out like it looks, sure. The NFA? No chance in hell would I ever want to be even remotely associated with that group of clownish cowboys.

DanN
09-28-2015, 08:45 PM
I joined the NFA Reloaded Facebook group thinking it was the proper NFA group in an effort to learn about them. Learn I did, quite quickly. Never sent a dime their way, don't expect I ever will. On the other hand CCFR is very much on my to do list. I'll join up front; it'll be their job to keep me.

Sent from my HTC One M9 using Tapatalk

Doug_M
09-29-2015, 05:35 AM
I joined the NFA Reloaded Facebook group thinking it was the proper NFA group in an effort to learn about them. Learn I did, quite quickly. Never sent a dime their way, don't expect I ever will. On the other hand CCFR is very much on my to do list. I'll join up front; it'll be their job to keep me.

It is a real shame about the NFA. They've done some good work, particularly in the courts. But they are too dysfunctional now to ever recover, and some there are determined to scuttle the ship.

Mark-II
09-29-2015, 09:57 AM
Good video, but I do want to say that there should be a fight to erase the weasel words "Gun Violence" from the political vernacular, because that neatly side steps the other side having to discuss the real problem, and instead focuses on guns. And we all know how progressives refuse to look at core issues, because those issues are rooted in their own world view.

It's as miserable a term as "Assault Weapon" which leads to such things as the dipper "Bad Scary Gun List".

You've got to own the conversation, and constantly redirect it away from politispeak.


As for keeping with the NFA.... The fact that their bylaws obviously don't address a blatant conflict of interest regarding executive members who seek political office, I'm letting that one lapse. Sheldon sold out the whole org to further his personal ambitions, it's plain to see now.

Foxer
09-29-2015, 10:19 AM
You've got to own the conversation, and constantly redirect it away from politispeak.

That is very true. You frame the debate when you frame the language. There's a lot of 'abused' terms that need to be addressed.



As for keeping with the NFA.... The fact that their bylaws obviously don't address a blatant conflict of interest regarding executive members who seek political office, I'm letting that one lapse. Sheldon sold out the whole org to further his personal ambitions, it's plain to see now.
Well it's deeper than that, although what you say is also true. There's no real dispute mechanism to address fights at the board level, the structure is very poorly set up where the board elects the president but also the president is a board member and the board has direct input into day to day functions, etc. That's not how it's normally done, and for good reason. Traditionally there is a seperation between the board and the executive - the board proposes and the president disposes. And normally you would not want the president of the board (or directors or whatever) to also be the president of the org. And there has to be a dispute mechanism (there are many good ones) to make sure that in the event of a serious disagreement the smooth running of the org continues and the dispute can be resolved. The election process also has to be refined to be more effective, and the meeting process needs to be better structured (no calling sudden secret type meetings - board meets at regular times unless there's special circumstances. ) The powers of various positions also needs to be spelled out.

And this is something I feel strongly about - there has to be provisions for the active members of the executive and org other than the directors to draw pay. I'm sorry - but 'volunteer' does NOT cut it for those who are actively expected to perform. It may be fine for directors and board members, but NOT for presidents, staff etc. Those positions should be manned by professionals with a clear expectation of performance and you do NOT get that with unpaid positions. All you get is power hungry folks who are doing it for the wrong reasons - as we have seen. You MIGHT get lucky once in a while, but over time it's a recipe for disaster.

Here's a birds eye view of what i'll be looking for -

There is a board or directorship or council who is elected and unpaid who's job it is to set the priorities and the projects of the org. The board will elect a chairperson, who's job it is to run the meetings and prepare the agenda and to cast a tie breaking vote if necessary, and that's IT. None of this 'the board hires or fires' crap - that just leads to people putting 'friends' or 'supporters' in key positions.

The board then hires or appoints a president or ceo of the org to manage the day to day operations and execute the priorites and budget as laid out by the directors/board. That position should eventually be paid - either a part time wage if a part time effort is expected or a full time wage if that's the level of effort expected. The president should have clear powers and clear direction from the board. The board should have the right to terminate the president if they wish, with the appropriate compensation. That's important because it should not be 'free' for the board to dismiss someone like that on a whim and they deserve compensation to have time to find other work, but at the same time they should not be able to say 'no' to being fired if the board really feels its worth replacing them. And there should be an appropriate non compete - they can work for other established orgs but not start their own or take any members.

The dispute mechanism - there's a lot of choices, but it should be clear and easy to trigger if necessary and be funded.

And if a board member wishes to resign to run for public office fine - but not while they're on the board.

And there should be provisions for proper bylaw reviews every now and then.

It may be necessary to create an interim exclusion - say for the first 3 years a person can sit on the board AND be president - chances are the president is going to be largely volunteer for the first few years. And you're not going to attract unpaid professionals till the thing is established except by those who are willing to build the org in the first place.

But in the long term - that's probably how it should look. More or less.

kennymo
10-18-2015, 09:59 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_suRWVKVq0

I'm completely pissed off. Went to track down this video on YouTube to share with a friend and there's a ####ing Liberal Party ad tagged onto the front, lol. F##k me am I worked up now.....guess it's going to be another hour before I get to bed...

Steveo9mm
10-18-2015, 10:06 PM
I'm completely pissed off. Went to track down this video on YouTube to share with a friend and there's a ####ing Liberal Party ad tagged onto the front, lol. F##k me am I worked up now.....guess it's going to be another hour before I get to bed...

beer

RangeBob
10-18-2015, 10:07 PM
there's a ####ing Liberal Party ad tagged onto the front.

Technically, the ad that appears is dependent upon the viewer, not the video.
So, sometime in the past couple months you may have looked at something about Justin Trudeau or Stephen Harper, somewhere on the internet.

Foxer
10-18-2015, 10:09 PM
I'm completely pissed off. Went to track down this video on YouTube to share with a friend and there's a ####ing Liberal Party ad tagged onto the front, lol. F##k me am I worked up now.....guess it's going to be another hour before I get to bed...

almost all the youtube vids i've watched in the last week (that are monetized) are showing liberal ads. It's been insane - the libs must have bought every single ounce of space for anyone with a canadian ip.

kennymo
10-18-2015, 10:10 PM
Oh, and any word on when memberships will hit the market? I know it's supposed to be almost any day now....and I just made a credit card payment....:p

DanN
10-18-2015, 10:20 PM
I am pretty sick of political ads and the worry of the outcome; time to get it overwith!

Sent from my HTC One M9 using Tapatalk

Edward Teach
10-18-2015, 10:53 PM
almost all the youtube vids i've watched in the last week (that are monetized) are showing liberal ads. It's been insane - the libs must have bought every single ounce of space for anyone with a canadian ip.

Yeah well I tried looking at youtube with a browser that wasn't equipped with an ad blocker and all i got was frigging mulcair, EVERY TIME I STARTED A NEW VID! I really wanted to destroy something.

conger
10-19-2015, 09:34 AM
almost all the youtube vids i've watched in the last week (that are monetized) are showing liberal ads. It's been insane - the libs must have bought every single ounce of space for anyone with a canadian ip.
Same here.

Sent from my SGH-I747M using Tapatalk

Steveo9mm
10-19-2015, 09:39 AM
Even trumps videos are tagged with liberal ads.

conger
10-19-2015, 09:41 AM
Even trumps videos are tagged with liberal ads.
The pony is like a tick. Latches on to anything of opportunity and then sucks the life out of it. Just like his dad.

Sent from my SGH-I747M using Tapatalk

Rory McCanuck
10-19-2015, 11:13 AM
AdBlock plus folks.
It's great for the blood pressure.

Edward Teach
10-19-2015, 11:25 AM
I also notice that Google News tends to give me a hell of a lot more leftist-slanted stories, and youtube is owned by them. Gotta wonder if there isn't some nudging going on there.

Swampdonkey
10-19-2015, 11:48 AM
almost all the youtube vids i've watched in the last week (that are monetized) are showing liberal ads. It's been insane - the libs must have bought every single ounce of space for anyone with a canadian ip.

Where did they get the money?

conger
10-19-2015, 11:56 AM
Where did they get the money?
They probably borrowed it and we will all be paying it back.

Sent from my SGH-I747M using Tapatalk

kennymo
10-19-2015, 10:43 PM
So, uh, where we at with this thing? Might be needing it pretty soon.....

CivilAdvantage
10-20-2015, 12:05 AM
Last round of website changes were done today, membership database is working, membership cards and machine is secured, most of the outward-facing marketing plan is complete, inward-facing still left to do, mission, vision and policies all complete. FO team at 100, member benefits secured (contracts not signed but received), two contests ready to release on launch, SSL certificate still pending, online transactions & PayPal complete.

The hardest part has been holding this band of volunteers together with all the gunnie drama that our community is notorious for. Some people in our community are truly our most effective enemies.

Canada will need a group like the CCFR now more than ever. I'm hoping that this week will be our launch!! Hope this helps :)

DanN
10-20-2015, 12:16 AM
Last round of website changes were done today, membership database is working, membership cards and machine is secured, most of the outward-facing marketing plan is complete, inward-facing still left to do, mission, vision and policies all complete. FO team at 100, member benefits secured (contracts not signed but received), two contests ready to release on launch, SSL certificate still pending, online transactions & PayPal complete.

The hardest part has been holding this band of volunteers together with all the gunnie drama that our community is notorious for. Some people in our community are truly our most effective enemies.

Canada will need a group like the CCFR now more than ever. I'm hoping that this week will be our launch!! Hope this helps :)
Need any more help?

Sent from my HTC One M9 using Tapatalk

Foxer
10-20-2015, 12:56 AM
The hardest part has been holding this band of volunteers together with all the gunnie drama that our community is notorious for. Some people in our community are truly our most effective enemies. That's true. However - sh*t just got real. Straighten out the misguided, beat the crap out of the stupid. We're going to have a challenging 4 years.

conger
10-20-2015, 03:27 AM
That's true. However - sh*t just got real. Straighten out the misguided, beat the crap out of the stupid. We're going to have a challenging 4 years.
Fairly sleepless night for me. Can't seem to turn my brain off. Foxer, you said a mouthful. We need to get organized and be smart about the way that we present ourselves to the public. This should absolutely be the wakeup call for many.

Sent from my SGH-I747M using Tapatalk

kennymo
10-20-2015, 03:38 AM
Fairly sleepless night for me. Can't seem to turn my brain off. Foxer, you said a mouthful. We need to get organized and be smart about the way that we present ourselves to the public. This should absolutely be the wakeup call for many.

Sent from my SGH-I747M using Tapatalk

You and me both. Gonna be a long day at work tomorrow....

Steveo9mm
10-20-2015, 04:54 AM
im still drunk from sunday night

Kane63
10-20-2015, 09:14 AM
I'm a member of NFA, CSSA, and NRA and I have split my available donation funds among them. The NFA imploded and I won't be renewing, the CSSA is hiding in a dark corner and I probably won't be renewing, and the NRA can't do anything here. If CCFR can be the group that keeps their sh*t together I'll be sending ALL my donation money their way. We need a war chest the likes of which have never been seen.

speedloader
10-20-2015, 09:29 AM
agreed kane , time to stop screwing the pooch and get behind a serious lobby group or org
that will do the job be at the table with the government and be reasonable

Mark-II
10-20-2015, 09:32 AM
I'll sign up for a lifetime friggin membership if you have one...

DanN
10-20-2015, 09:36 AM
I have never felt so motivated to join a new organization. And more than join, but help. Be involved.

Maybe that is the sliver lining here - MAYBE this election will finally bring us together. That needs to be one of our primary goals.

RangeBob
10-20-2015, 09:57 AM
the CSSA is hiding in a dark corner
The CSSA had to be quiet while they were in advisory/discussion talks with the Minister Of Public Safety while the minister was writing legislation.

Do you anticipate that the CSSA will be assisting the Liberal Minister Of Public Safety in writing legislation? I assume not.
Which should mean that the CSSA might be turning its attentions to public speaking rolls.
Of course, at this precise moment, is probably on its hands and knees like the rest of us who all had the metaphorical rug pulled out from under us.

Gaidheal
10-20-2015, 10:06 AM
I have never felt so motivated to join a new organization. And more than join, but help. Be involved.

Maybe that is the sliver lining here - MAYBE this election will finally bring us together. That needs to be one of our primary goals.

I've offered to help too but I don't think I'm who they want for what they offered me... my public image on social media would not make the org happy if I had a public-facing role in it.

I would like to help but I think I would have to be a behind-the-scenes guy.

My personal life has never been filtered to not offend anyone - often times the opposite has been true.

Not what an effective org needs - especially at launch.

:)

Doug_M
10-20-2015, 10:23 AM
The CSSA had to be quiet while they were in advisory/discussion talks with the Minister Of Public Safety while the minister was writing legislation.

Do you anticipate that the CSSA will be assisting the Liberal Minister Of Public Safety in writing legislation? I assume not.
Which should mean that the CSSA might be turning its attentions to public speaking rolls.
Of course, at this precise moment, is probably on its hands and knees like the rest of us who all had the metaphorical rug pulled out from under us.

RB I think he meant during the election campaign.

Kane63
10-20-2015, 10:24 AM
The CSSA had to be quiet while they were in advisory/discussion talks with the Minister Of Public Safety while the minister was writing legislation.

Do you anticipate that the CSSA will be assisting the Liberal Minister Of Public Safety in writing legislation? I assume not.
Which should mean that the CSSA might be turning its attentions to public speaking rolls.
Of course, at this precise moment, is probably on its hands and knees like the rest of us who all had the metaphorical rug pulled out from under us.

But that doesn't necessarily mean that they have to be quiet altogether. Especially during the campaign.

I assume they'll be shown the door. I can only hope that they generate some positive momentum for us but my main point is that I don't want to divide my donation money up as much anymore. I think one effective group with a sh*t ton of money will be better than a handful with segmented goals and lesser funds.

Foxer
10-20-2015, 10:53 AM
The CSSA had to be quiet while they were in advisory/discussion talks with the Minister Of Public Safety while the minister was writing legislation.

Do you anticipate that the CSSA will be assisting the Liberal Minister Of Public Safety in writing legislation? I assume not.
Which should mean that the CSSA might be turning its attentions to public speaking rolls.
Of course, at this precise moment, is probably on its hands and knees like the rest of us who all had the metaphorical rug pulled out from under us.

they didn't have to be quiet during the election. They should have been noisy as hell, they should have been selling the CPC wherever possible, encouraging donations, appearing in the public to warn gun owners what the consequences of a liberal gov't would be - I don't even think that most of the people here realize what they can do to us and how far back we can backslide.

The unions were sure doing all that stuff for the libs. The libs had all KINDS of special interest groups out there putting the message out every day - ours were silent.

That's what i'm talking about. It might not have changed the results all that much - but then again it might have. THe CSSA really failed gun owners in that regard - the election was NO time to play ostrich.

Mark-II
10-20-2015, 11:05 AM
They are a bit too Run Silent Run Deep, just like the NFA is too much Bullhorn Bombast

Doug_M
10-20-2015, 11:29 AM
They are a bit too Run Silent Run Deep, just like the NFA is too much Bullhorn Bombast

They were sending out near daily emails warning of the perils of the CPC losing. Trouble is they were sending that out to their members. That is only a reach of 23,000 max and probably 90% of those already were voting CPC.

Kane63
10-20-2015, 11:33 AM
They were sending out near daily emails warning of the perils of the CPC losing. Trouble is they were sending that out to their members. That is only a reach of 23,000 max and probably 90% of those already were voting CPC.

Exactly, they were largely talking to the already decided voters.

Foxer
10-20-2015, 11:36 AM
They were sending out near daily emails warning of the perils of the CPC losing. Trouble is they were sending that out to their members. That is only a reach of 23,000 max and probably 90% of those already were voting CPC.

yeah - it's peeing in the wind at that point. The unions were out there talking to tens of millions - the cssa was out there talking to 2 tens of thousands. For an 'org' dedicated to helping gun owners, that's just dropping the ball plain and simple.

The nfa used to run ads in the elections (pretty funny ones too) before they blew up.

I think we need to a) - completely ostricize and dismantle the NFA. they're done. b) - tell the CSSA it's time to either step up their game and get behind the WHOLE community or they can eff off too, and c) help build at least ONE org that actually will do positive things to help our rights by uniting firearms owners and dealing with the general public and preferably organizing for elections.

Edenchef
10-20-2015, 12:08 PM
I'm in when this gets rolling. For today, I'm going to focus my disappointment and fight back by introducing 3 new people to the shooting sports; by taking them to the range for their first time.

Mark-II
10-21-2015, 01:58 PM
The more people you get involved, the less fertile the ground is for the stupid to take root in

I almost want to try dating again so that I can take ladies to the range for the first (and last) meetup

.....almost lol

CivilAdvantage
10-21-2015, 09:18 PM
Hopefully the last update I'll have to do....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7XWdXDUgw-8

Petamocto
10-22-2015, 03:09 AM
Great video, but I miss the club shirts.

Foxer
10-22-2015, 12:13 PM
Great video, but I miss the club shirts.

First thing I thought of :) I guess those are reserved for his other channel stuff :)

TheHydrant
10-22-2015, 02:06 PM
Hopefully the last update I'll have to do....

I rather like the updates. Keep 'em coming.

DanN
10-22-2015, 02:12 PM
Hopefully the last update I'll have to do....

I prefer frequent updates over silence... I can always ignore an update!

Foxer
10-22-2015, 03:01 PM
I rather like the updates. Keep 'em coming.

I think he meant that hopefully it's the last update BEFORE the org gets going and starts doing things on it's own. Sort of the 'last update till we start the org officially'. I'm pretty sure once it's going it'll still be posting updates :)

Which is very refreshing, you never really heard much in the way of updates from the nfa and the cssa used to a bit but i haven't seen any in a long time.

RangeBob
10-22-2015, 04:07 PM
I hear through the grapevine that the CCFRs facebook page should have its comments turned off for a while.
Assuming the purpose of the place is to provide a favourable public perception, right now their facebook page's comments ain't it.
Skip the armed citizenry, "They will do whatever they need to do to fulfill their agenda", crime & law enforcement stuff, and crude remarks.
Stick with what 2 million Canadians actually do with their firearms -- pleasant recreation and food.

https://www.facebook.com/CanadianCoalitionFirearmRights

I'm leaning towards supporting these simultaneously as a plan:
- CSSA handling politics
- CCFR handling 35 million Canadians.

The concern is that right now, the CCFR facebook page is changing public perception for the worse, not the better.
That's worse than not existing at all.

Yes, I know what I'm saying is Harperish and not Justinish.

kennymo
10-22-2015, 04:19 PM
Well certain FB pages were a goddamn embarrassment for most of us. I hope the new one is heavily moderated. Possibly even going so far as to include the 'radicalized penguin' moderation format.....

Mark-II
10-22-2015, 05:48 PM
Sometimes you just have to put the kids in time out

Kane63
10-23-2015, 07:29 AM
Maybe they are moderating them, I don't see any controversial things in the comments. But I think some people are under the impression that this is a reincarnation of the NFA, created by the controversial directors and members. Let's hope that isn't the case.

kennymo
10-23-2015, 07:33 AM
Maybe they are moderating them, I don't see any controversial things in the comments. But I think some people are under the impression that this is a reincarnation of the NFA, created by the controversial directors and members. Let's hope that isn't the case.

I jumped to this conclusion early on, but it seems pretty clear that the goal is to completely abandon the NFA style approach. Again, I'm hopeful.....

Kane63
10-23-2015, 07:37 AM
I jumped to this conclusion early on, but it seems pretty clear that the goal is to completely abandon the NFA style approach. Again, I'm hopeful.....

I think it's a reasonable conclusion given some of the names that were being associated with it.

SIR VEYOR
10-23-2015, 07:52 AM
from elsewhere
Originally Posted by robab
Let's find a producer and crowd fund a documentary of our own. Show real unbiased stats and positive pro gun news. Show youth learning, speak to Olympian shooters, experts( not the CFO sort) get Dr Mauser in there, classroom shots of firearms courses, native hunters, rangers etc. Call it. Guns in Canada "the real truth".


It ain't the making that's hard. It's getting the networks to show it that is a challenge.

How about just a short infomercial or commercial to run at Cineplex during the preview\ad portion. Especially if we can get it in front of Star Wars or something with our initial demographic as opposed to the newest kid movie?

Maybe the new org can just do a "we're here. give us a quick look" kinda thing.

Foxer
10-23-2015, 09:33 AM
How about just a short infomercial or commercial to run at Cineplex during the preview\ad portion. Especially if we can get it in front of Star Wars or something with our initial demographic as opposed to the newest kid movie?

Maybe the new org can just do a "we're here. give us a quick look" kinda thing.
I think they'd have better luck with wild tv or something. It only costs about 2 grand for a decent amount of ad time on their channel, plus the cost of making the ad.

RangeBob
10-23-2015, 09:52 AM
I think they'd have better luck with wild tv or something. It only costs about 2 grand for a decent amount of ad time on their channel, plus the cost of making the ad.

Wild TV could be good for a warm up. A proof that they were doing something of quality.
(Remember those horrible commercials the first six months of Sun News Television)

But ultimately Wild TV is already preaching to the choir, if the purpose is public perception.

Wild TV is the perfect starting place, the ultimate cost effective place for advertising, if the purpose is to grow membership in a low membership org.

The Joe-Man
10-23-2015, 10:07 AM
Wild TV could be good for a warm up. A proof that they were doing something of quality.
(Remember those horrible commercials the first six months of Sun News Television)

But ultimately Wild TV is already preaching to the choir, if the purpose is public perception.

Wild TV is the perfect starting place, the ultimate cost effective place for advertising, if the purpose is to grow membership in a low membership org.

The first step is getting the hunters on board with the black gun guys.

Swampdonkey
10-23-2015, 10:13 AM
The first step is getting the hunters on board with the black gun guys.

Most of us are already, but there's always that little holdout. What can we further do?

The Joe-Man
10-23-2015, 10:55 AM
I was speaking in support of the idea of running ads on WildTV. Ads in hunting magazines wouldn't hurt either.

SIR VEYOR
10-24-2015, 06:29 AM
I think they'd have better luck with wild tv or something. It only costs about 2 grand for a decent amount of ad time on their channel, plus the cost of making the ad.

2K or so should go pretty far here as well:
http://media.cineplex.com/pre-show

TJSpeller
10-24-2015, 06:34 AM
Gunowners need to show that they are regular people, who enjoy a sport that keeps them active, outdoors, socially interacting with a cross-section of Canadians, all races, religions, male and female, young and old.

I have long thought about the idea of crowdfunding a half page ad in a paper somewhere, showing 100 gun owners of all ages, races, professions, men, women and children, in all the provinces, cities and countryside, saying - "we are Canadians, we are gun owners, there are 2 million of us" or something similar.

It should be done professionally - but there are probably members of the gun community who could do it at cost to safe money.

Brad
10-24-2015, 08:54 AM
Well to be honest I'm not too impressed with the other two so I have high hopes for this one.

CivilAdvantage
10-24-2015, 08:55 AM
We are open boys!!!!!!!! Bring it!

https://firearmrights.ca/en/

Foxer
10-24-2015, 09:12 AM
We are open boys!!!!!!!! Bring it!

https://firearmrights.ca/en/

Pretty much deserves a new thread of it's own i'd say :)

I like what i see. I can tell some of those policies are going to annoy some of the 'no compromise' types, but they are real and practical. Any chance of seeing the bylaws and structure stuff?

RangeBob
10-24-2015, 09:23 AM
We are open boys!!!!!!!! Bring it!

https://firearmrights.ca/en/

Cool.

So we have the Canadian Coalition for Firearm Rights, a pro freedom organization, asking for donations and membership and ideas;
and we have the Canadian Coalition for Gun Control, a central control statist organization, asking for donations.

Spectre
10-24-2015, 09:40 AM
IN!

Brad
10-24-2015, 09:41 AM
I'm in. I figure I need to support something and a fresh new organization might be the change we need.

Foxer
10-24-2015, 09:43 AM
I want to join to give it a try, but i'd sure like a litlte more info on the insurance options. Is that going to be coming soon?

glockfan
10-24-2015, 10:00 AM
no wonder i have a lot of interest in the new org.might give them a go even if i'm a member of 3 orgs (NFA,CSSA,NRA)...

but i seriously question myself on the fact that we have 3 pro gun orgs in canada, but none of them have the balls to fight on the public place with the right rethorics .

i liked shawn bevins a lot, as well as claude colgan, i felt they were up the task, they master the anti rethoric like no ones before, but then they're out, i feel the timing of their departure was set on purpose , the end result is we are now left with a serious void into our power to return the anti rethoric against them self .

and please, don't tell me the NFA was persona non gratta with the harper GVT because SC kind of burnt up the '''communication channels'''' with ottawa, i don't give it a single crapp. it's now time to act on the public place fighting the ultra weak anti rethorics in public , bevins and colgan were ultra credible speakers in that matter for us.


with the smoker in power, we soo need this kind of ''fighters'''' on our side.

TJSpeller
10-24-2015, 10:10 AM
Well, I joined. Here's hoping that this organization strikes the right communication and messaging balance when fighting for our rights.

Good luck.

Foxer
10-24-2015, 11:22 AM
no wonder i have a lot of interest in the new org.might give them a go even if i'm a member of 3 orgs (NFA,CSSA,NRA)...

but i seriously question myself on the fact that we have 3 pro gun orgs in canada, but none of them have the balls to fight on the public place with the right rethorics .

i liked shawn bevins a lot, as well as claude colgan, i felt they were up the task, they master the anti rethoric like no ones before, but then they're out, i feel the timing of their departure was set on purpose , the end result is we are now left with a serious void into our power to return the anti rethoric against them self .No, they really weren't. And in the end the nfa has done far more harm to our cause than anything else. Rhetoric is a loser's game, it feels good but it gets you nowhere.


and please, don't tell me the NFA was persona non gratta with the harper GVT because SC kind of burnt up the '''communication channels'''' with ottawa, i don't give it a single crapp. Well then you don't really care about gun rights at all, so why bother caring about gun orgs?


it's now time to act on the public place fighting the ultra weak anti rethorics in public , bevins and colgan were ultra credible speakers in that matter for us.
with the smoker in power, we soo need this kind of ''fighters'''' on our side.

No. we don't. Look - if you want to pound your chest and rend your garments and gnash your teeth - you go have fun. All you need is a mirror. Those of us who actually give a crap about gun rights will get down to the real business of it. The bullcrap the nfa and bevins and others were selling was destructive to our community, and look how that story has ended - the nfa has completely crashed and is burning to the ground. We don't need that at all

CHest beating has never worked - and yes it certainly was tried the last time we had to deal with a liberal gov't. The only thing that DOES work is speaking the truth, in an intelligent manner, over and over. People eventually get it.

RangeBob
10-24-2015, 11:33 AM
The only thing that DOES work is speaking the truth, in an intelligent manner, over and over. People eventually get it.

THE EDITOR'S COLUMN: Facts top feelings, change views on gun issues

February 06, 2011
Ohio

AFTER reading through reporter Taylor Dungjenís front page story today on the relatively trouble-free growth of concealed carry of handguns in Ohio, I have to admit I was wrong.

Back in 2004, when Ohioís law allowing licensed concealed carry of handguns was adopted, I was among the opponents who thought it would make public shoot-outs common and fill the streets with blood.

In part, my view was molded by the accidental gunshot death of a person I very much admired.

He was the guy who gave me my first newspaper byline, as a matter of fact.

We worked together on police beat when I was a reporting intern at The Cleveland Press one summer, and by the time I came back as a full-time reporter after graduation from college, he was gone.

Guns were not part of my city-kid upbringing, and all I saw of them as a young reporter on the police beat spelled trouble.

As this newspaperís Editorial Page editor in 2004, whenever I wrote a negative opinion piece about concealed carry, it got support from some readers who shared the same feeling, but it also got a flood of responses countering my arguments. The response from gun supporters was loud and spirited, to put it politely, and full of factual information. And the difference between opinion based on "feeling" and opinion based on fact, over time, made all the difference in changing my viewpoint.

The facts showed that concealed carry did not bring Ohio more crime, more bloodshed or a Wild West atmosphere. In fact, none of that has happened anywhere in the United States as legal concealed carry has become the rule rather than the exception in the state laws across the land.

Yes, in a perfect world, there would be no need for guns. But the world is not perfect, and never will be perfect. Two-legged predators will always be a threat to good citizens. The law forbids felons from possessing guns, but criminals ignore the law, so it is only proper that law-abiding people be allowed to possess and to carry a weapon if they meet the rules in the law.

Police cannot be everywhere at all times, and most often are not in a position to provide protection from a potentially deadly criminal attack that occurs in seconds. Thatís when a personís right and responsibility to defend themselves and their family members from death or serious harm would call for use of a firearm.

Our nationís founders put their own lives at grave risk to break free of a tyrannical king and give us liberty, something that nobody but us Americans has ever tasted so fully in the history of mankind.

Out of that crucible of the American Revolution, the founders drew up the Constitution and its Bill of Rights.

Second only to free speech, they emphasized the right to keep and bear arms for defense -- a right the Supreme Court recently said belongs to each individual, not just collectively to create state militias.

So, back to Lorain County and concealed carry. Time and events have proven that concealed carry is safe for the public in general. Gun ownership is perfectly fine. Both carry an obligation to follow well-known laws and rules for safety, and thatís exactly what law abiding citizens will do by their nature. Itís criminals, by their nature, that we should worry about.

This column, and Taylor Dungjenís front page story by no means cover every aspect of the long-running debates over firearms. That would take a book, or several books.

For now, letís just say I freely admit I was on the wrong side of this argument for too long, and the facts presented by gun rights advocates over the years finally have brought me to see the issue with appropriate clarity.

If you want to be a gun owner or even a concealed carry license holder, fine. Just do it right.

Itís one of our most fundamental rights as Americans.

Tom Skoch is editor of The Morning Journal, where his Tell the Editor blog appears

hxxp://www.morningjournal.com/articles/2011/02/06/opinion/doc4d4e1b29419fe014211343.txt?viewmode=fullstory

kennymo
10-24-2015, 12:04 PM
Well, now I know what my wallet's doing on payday.....

amolkapoor
10-24-2015, 12:08 PM
We are open boys!!!!!!!! Bring it!

https://firearmrights.ca/en/

I'm in, might be your first student member! Promise I'll become a regular member once I finish school and get back to work next year! :)

labradort
10-24-2015, 12:48 PM
I've been scanning this and the CGN forums for news on an org which can defend our rights and educate the MPs. I don't see it yet. I see something that sounds like a Canadian flavour of the NRA.

When CBC or similar pick up the phone to get "the other viewpoint", they just call the NFA, because they believe the point of view of gun owners is reflected by something like the NRA, and they want to expose the point of view as something like a "Rob Ford crazy". The media already have their mind made up that gun enthusiasts like the set of values put forth by the NRA.

The media see gun owners as three groups: competitive target shooters, hunters, and nuts who enjoy the fantasy they are all potential Rambos ready to fight for freedom, justice and the American way, or something like that.

There are certain things that cannot be part of the conversation to "educate", if we want credibility.

- We can't talk about supporting militias. That means something completely different in the U.S., related to a different set of rights, and has nothing to do with Canada's laws, constitution and charter of rights.

- We can't talk about a right to self defence and property defence via firearms. The law does not work that way in Canada. We run away, we call 911, we do not have "stand your ground" as in the U.S. Self defence is seldom upheld in court in Canada. It can only work when there are absolutely no other options.

We really need to understand. As soon as one of the above is mentioned by a spokesperson, they are lit up as "nut" and no one in the media nor an MP will be really listening to anything they have to say thereafter, other than to hope they say some really wacky quotable stuff.

What we have to defend is not the American dream, but the status quo of owning firearms in Canada. We have some very strong points already in our favour, but the journalists will never learn of the status quo as long as they keep hearing "nut bar" in their inner voice. Our strong points are the current regulations on safety training, PAL/RPAL requirements, laws on storage of firearms, range safety, hunter education requirements, etc. The average non-gun-owner (i.e. journalist and MP) has no idea how this works. The average non-gun-owner knows firearms from movies, TV and video games. None of it reflects the reality of firearm ownership and use in Canada.

I can imagine there are people who are anxious to get the whole service rifle, semi auto, etc. stuff sorted out. You are right, that needs to happen as well. But since people are wired up by a lot of CNN, this has to be done in baby steps. First the public needs to understand they are already protected by laws governing the legal owners of firearms. Then they need to understand crimes are not being committed with legally acquired firearms. Then the attention can be diverted to the real source of theirs and ours concerns: gangs, smugglers, mental health consumers etc.

Magi
10-24-2015, 01:28 PM
I am in and will add the insurance when they clarify the details. Everyone should have the opportunity to prove themselves... The NFA failed, you're up CCFR!

Marc

conger
10-24-2015, 02:09 PM
I've been scanning this and the CGN forums for news on an org which can defend our rights and educate the MPs. I don't see it yet. I see something that sounds like a Canadian flavour of the NRA.

When CBC or similar pick up the phone to get "the other viewpoint", they just call the NFA, because they believe the point of view of gun owners is reflected by something like the NRA, and they want to expose the point of view as something like a "Rob Ford crazy". The media already have their mind made up that gun enthusiasts like the set of values put forth by the NRA.

The media see gun owners as three groups: competitive target shooters, hunters, and nuts who enjoy the fantasy they are all potential Rambos ready to fight for freedom, justice and the American way, or something like that.

There are certain things that cannot be part of the conversation to "educate", if we want credibility.

- We can't talk about supporting militias. That means something completely different in the U.S., related to a different set of rights, and has nothing to do with Canada's laws, constitution and charter of rights.

- We can't talk about a right to self defence and property defence via firearms. The law does not work that way in Canada. We run away, we call 911, we do not have "stand your ground" as in the U.S. Self defence is seldom upheld in court in Canada. It can only work when there are absolutely no other options.

We really need to understand. As soon as one of the above is mentioned by a spokesperson, they are lit up as "nut" and no one in the media nor an MP will be really listening to anything they have to say thereafter, other than to hope they say some really wacky quotable stuff.

What we have to defend is not the American dream, but the status quo of owning firearms in Canada. We have some very strong points already in our favour, but the journalists will never learn of the status quo as long as they keep hearing "nut bar" in their inner voice. Our strong points are the current regulations on safety training, PAL/RPAL requirements, laws on storage of firearms, range safety, hunter education requirements, etc. The average non-gun-owner (i.e. journalist and MP) has no idea how this works. The average non-gun-owner knows firearms from movies, TV and video games. None of it reflects the reality of firearm ownership and use in Canada.

I can imagine there are people who are anxious to get the whole service rifle, semi auto, etc. stuff sorted out. You are right, that needs to happen as well. But since people are wired up by a lot of CNN, this has to be done in baby steps. First the public needs to understand they are already protected by laws governing the legal owners of firearms. Then they need to understand crimes are not being committed with legally acquired firearms. Then the attention can be diverted to the real source of theirs and ours concerns: gangs, smugglers, mental health consumers etc.
I think you've come to the right place. You'll find conversation here much more sedate than some other forums.
You're right about public perception about gun owners. It needs to change and we must be careful about the way we present ourselves.

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FALover
10-24-2015, 02:21 PM
We are open boys!!!!!!!! Bring it!

https://firearmrights.ca/en/


You forgot to mention the girls (ladies)!

You have my cash! The insurance is a good idea considering the fools who will be trying to vilify us at any cost and the chance to win a spiffy Remington bolt rifle is just icing on the cake.
(Hope the membership card looks both attractive yet authoritative)!

conger
10-24-2015, 02:31 PM
I think they'd have better luck with wild tv or something. It only costs about 2 grand for a decent amount of ad time on their channel, plus the cost of making the ad.
Wouldn't it be something to see an ad on CBC. Wouldn't that be a kick in the nuts for the lefties and the anti's. 😃

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FALover
10-24-2015, 02:42 PM
Wouldn't it be something to see an ad on CBC. Wouldn't that be a kick in the nuts for the lefties and the anti's. ��

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Kickstarter for specific projects! I would be in for a few dollars to hear a great radio or tv ad! Rod already has a commanding persona and his topics are clear and concise. Some professional camera work and it could be the first salvo for freedoms and liberty in Canada!

Doug_M
10-24-2015, 03:00 PM
Rod, time to make that Facebook group the type where every single post (not comment) is moderated. While the FB group is not the org, it is the current public face of the org and it is going to hell in a hand basket fast. Better to hurt some feelings now and get a grip on it than to lose it all because of they keyboard warriors. IMHO serious orgs don't have unmoderated sites anyway. Can't think of one that does.


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Coke
10-24-2015, 05:36 PM
I joined, got the insurance, and donated... Let's go!!!

TheHydrant
10-24-2015, 06:14 PM
Gunowners need to show that they are regular people

exactly what I was saying several posts ago. Gun org. members could benefit from some visible Community Outreach volunteerism. Charitable donations are great, but the public needs to see us as an identifiable group in action picking up trash, planting trees or community gardens, etc. etc. What??? Social Activism??? Am I a liberal now?
I've personally helped organize these types of outreach projects at my workplace with some success......however participation has been gradually but steadily declining. Turns out a day off isn't enough to get people to participate in something they don't truly believe in or have a personal investment in. I thinks it's safe to say we all have a personal stake in protecting our liberties.

Foxer
10-24-2015, 06:22 PM
Well i'm in, Normally i wouldn't be till i'd seen a little more but i guess we've all got to take a bit of a leap of faith if this thing is going to get a chance to get off the ground. Plus a small 'donation'.

I chose no insurance because i want to find out with the full insurance includes in detail before buying it - i hope we'll be allowed to buy it later if it turns out to be good. Otherwise - kick to the nads :)

TheHydrant
10-24-2015, 06:32 PM
^^^ right, and same here. Spared no expense on the basic individual membership. Keep it simple and see how it develops.

conger
10-24-2015, 06:39 PM
Well i'm in, Normally i wouldn't be till i'd seen a little more but i guess we've all got to take a bit of a leap of faith if this thing is going to get a chance to get off the ground. Plus a small 'donation'.

I chose no insurance because i want to find out with the full insurance includes in detail before buying it - i hope we'll be allowed to buy it later if it turns out to be good. Otherwise - kick to the nads :)
My wife and I both carry the legal defence insurance. I guess you never know when you need something like this. I've used the advice line 3 times so far. Each time, someone answers the call takes my info and a local attorney called me back with a short time to discuss the question. So far our experience with it has been nothing but positive.

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Foxer
10-24-2015, 06:52 PM
My wife and I both carry the legal defence insurance. I guess you never know when you need something like this. I've used the advice line 3 times so far. Each time, someone answers the call takes my info and a local attorney called me back with a short time to discuss the question. So far our experience with it has been nothing but positive.

So is it the same as the other legal defense insurance? I thiought this might be something different specific to the new org.

conger
10-24-2015, 07:13 PM
So is it the same as the other legal defense insurance? I thiought this might be something different specific to the new org.
Same company. You can view the entire policy thru their website. Basically, if you're not a scumbag criminal trying to get away with a murder. You're covered.

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labradort
10-25-2015, 06:19 AM
I've joined too.

The main thing that needs to be achieved, is for this org to be the number to call
when media go to ask for the gun owners side of a story.

Right now it is NFA and they (CBC, etc.) probably have little interest in changing that.

I don't feel they should be advocating for concealed carry at this time, but what they have for policy on this concept is comprehensive. Baby steps are needed. Calming the "gun nut" reaction is needed. Pretend you are introducing all this material to a fluffy white kitten, not your range buddy or hunting buddy.

leibermuster
10-25-2015, 10:00 AM
Sorry no way I'm supporting this org. I find this detrimental to moving forward.

Rod appears like a good guy but I question him on a multitude of levels. This whole thing is a bad idea and to many of you are naive to support this. We lost in the nineties and we blew the opportunity with the CPC in the 2000s. I wasn't in the meetings but have noticed way to many trends with these orgs. I guess you guys conveniently forgot about the CFI(CANADIAN FIREARMS INSTITUTE) as well? And I don't support them either.


How many orgs are out there? Lol again. Sorry not supporting Rod he doesn't have the metal needed for this by a long shot

Doug_M
10-25-2015, 10:18 AM
Sorry no way I'm supporting this org. I find this detrimental to moving forward.

Rod appears like a good guy but I question him on a multitude of levels. This whole thing is a bad idea and to many of you are naive to support this. We lost in the nineties and we blew the opportunity with the CPC in the 2000s. I wasn't in the meetings but have noticed way to many trends with these orgs. I guess you guys conveniently forgot about the CFI(CANADIAN FIREARMS INSTITUTE) as well? And I don't support them either.


How many orgs are out there? Lol again. Sorry not supporting Rod he doesn't have the metal needed for this by a long shot

Can you expand on this? What do you see as detrimental? What do you question Rod on? What part(s) is a bad idea?


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Magi
10-25-2015, 10:30 AM
Sorry no way I'm supporting this org. I find this detrimental to moving forward.

...not supporting Rod he doesn't have the metal needed for this by a long shot

Please do elaborate, if you feel that strongly about it I believe we should all be made aware of why we should not support Ron.

Marc

amolkapoor
10-25-2015, 10:56 AM
Please do elaborate, if you feel that strongly about it I believe we should all be made aware of why we should not support Ron.

Marc

I think you mean "Rod", and I would like to hear if this gentleman has facts or reasoning too. Even before CCFR, Rod was doing good work through his youtube channel by conveying a positive message. I signed up with the CCFR, it is exactly what we needed in addition to the calculated and quiet political approach of the CSSA.

mikpen14
10-25-2015, 11:00 AM
Just joined

speedloader
10-25-2015, 11:10 AM
Sorry no way I'm supporting this org. I find this detrimental to moving forward.

Rod appears like a good guy but I question him on a multitude of levels. This whole thing is a bad idea and to many of you are naive to support this. We lost in the nineties and we blew the opportunity with the CPC in the 2000s. I wasn't in the meetings but have noticed way to many trends with these orgs. I guess you guys conveniently forgot about the CFI(CANADIAN FIREARMS INSTITUTE) as well? And I don't support them either.


How many orgs are out there? Lol again. Sorry not supporting Rod he doesn't have the metal needed for this by a long shot

Rod has done alot for this industry mostly on his own dime
would be very interested to hear your reasoning

rommel900
10-25-2015, 11:22 AM
I joined yesterday. I have sent word to some friends to sign up as soon as possible. Instead of donating, I later plan on offering paid memberships to those on GOC or CGN who for whatever reason have financial problems and cannot sign up. It would be nice if the CCFR would post monthly updates on their website as to how many members have signed up. I would like to know how effective we as members and CCFR can spread the word and make this organization what we want it to be.

DanN
10-25-2015, 11:34 AM
Sorry not supporting Rod he doesn't have the metal (SIC) needed for this by a long shot

Mettle: a person's ability to cope well with difficulties or to face a demanding situation in a spirited and resilient way.

I think Rod does have the mettle. As a CFSC, he is well versed in the laws. He's motivated, as shown by his Youtube channel. He's articulate and approachable; he has answered my personal emails on several occasions. Simply put, I find him to be a likable guy who's easy to talk to.

Most importantly, I believe he's willing to listen.

To be honest though, it's not those of us who would sign up today that he really even needs to address right away; we don't need to be converted. What we need is unity.

Remember, too, that Rod came to the sport late; he was exactly the demographic we need to appeal to. No doubt we need a voice to respond to the groups who would suppress us, but we also need to bring our sport more into the mainstream. Rod has been on both sides of that fence and I think that experience will serve him well.

My opinion (and plan) are that we should all join both the CSSA and the CCFR.

conger
10-25-2015, 12:00 PM
Sorry no way I'm supporting this org. I find this detrimental to moving forward.

Rod appears like a good guy but I question him on a multitude of levels. This whole thing is a bad idea and to many of you are naive to support this. We lost in the nineties and we blew the opportunity with the CPC in the 2000s. I wasn't in the meetings but have noticed way to many trends with these orgs. I guess you guys conveniently forgot about the CFI(CANADIAN FIREARMS INSTITUTE) as well? And I don't support them either.


How many orgs are out there? Lol again. Sorry not supporting Rod he doesn't have the metal needed for this by a long shot
Also would be interested as to your reasoning. All we've really heard is. Bad bad bad. How about, why why why.

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Steveo9mm
10-25-2015, 12:00 PM
http://ninofilm.net/blog//wp-content/uploads/2012/08/tumblr_lpzaw45ztW1qz4ak4o1_500.jpg

Magi
10-25-2015, 12:19 PM
I think you mean "Rod...

Correct you are, Rod's the man!

RangeBob
10-25-2015, 01:56 PM
Can you expand on this? What do you see as detrimental? What do you question Rod on? What part(s) is a bad idea?

There have been threads where Rod was presenting some of the positions he was in favour of.
Some he was talked out of, some had some opposition but Rod wouldn't be talked out of them.
(not to be confused with Petamocto's proposed org thread which could be described the same way)

If CCFR/Rod's purpose is to explain to the public the current laws, then these are irrelevant since they are talking about what should be rather than what is.
Rod is pretty good with public relations and better than average with content about current laws, which to my mind is worth giving a try.

Foxer
10-25-2015, 02:12 PM
The thing of it is, there's no 'position' that's going to make everyone happy. To a large degree we've got to stop thinking about 'is it perfect' and start thinking in terms of 'is it a good next step' and 'can it be easily explained and sold to the public and the gov't."

If something is better than what we have - great. We should be supporting that. There's nothing to say we can't go to the NEXT step after we achieve that. Education usually happens in stages, and you have to get someone to accept the first stage before they're open to or able to understand the next one.

As gun owners we've got to make peace with that and give the process a chance to work.