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Billythreefeathers
09-13-2015, 05:55 PM
Justin Trudeau, Jean Chrétien slam NDP's stance on Quebec secession

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canada-election-2015-trudeau-chr%C3%A9tien-campaign-hamilton-1.3226216

With the old guard come the old battles.

Liberal Leader Justin Trudeau brought out former prime minister Jean Chrétien on the campaign trail today, rallying up the party faithful in Hamilton and slamming the NDP for its stance on Quebec secession.


It was unclear to many why the Liberals chose to bring up the issue at this point in the electoral race.

"[Mulcair] says I'm talking about problems that don't exist, but I'm not the one who rose it first," Chrétien said.

NDP Leader Tom Mulcair made headlines in June when he brought up the party's so-called Sherbrooke Declaration of 2005, a document that stated Quebec should be granted "specific powers and room for manoeuvring."

Jean Chrétien and Justin Trudeau appeared in front of an enthusiastic crowd of party supporters on Sunday afternoon in Hamilton.

With that declaration, the party endorsed the principle of recognizing a referendum victory by the sovereigntist Yes side, even if it were by a majority of 50 per cent plus one.

That clashes with the federal Clarity Act, which calls for the need for a "clear majority."

Jean Chrétien says Stephen Harper 'has shamed Canada'

Trudeau said Mulcair "wants to roll the dice. He wants to put separation back on the table, and turn the clock back 20 years."

"All Tom Mulcair's experience in politics has taught him is to play politics with anything and everything — including with the unity of this country to gain a few votes from separatists. That's not leadership."

'Quarrels of the past'

Mulcair brushed off the criticism earlier in the day, accusing Chrétien of "trying to revive the quarrels of the past because he sees a political advantage."

"I'll let Justin Trudeau continue with his golden oldies tour," he said in Vancouver. "We're talking about solving the problems for the future."


Chrétien penned an open letter published by a number of newspapers yesterday decrying Stephen Harper's response to the Syrian refugee crisis. He said Harper had helped to cast Canada as a "cold-hearted" nation among the international community and that his actions have "shamed Canada."

A few weeks ago, Trudeau's campaign got another boost from another former prime minister: Paul Martin.

Martin tagged along on the campaign trail and offered choice words to Conservative Leader Stephen Harper and NDP Leader Tom Mulcair, calling the former the "King of Deficits" and accusing the latter of "holding hands" with the Tories on a path to fiscal ruin.

Billythreefeathers
09-13-2015, 05:55 PM
why is he always looking for someone else to do his speaking,, and is he paying them 20k per event?


who's next brian mulroney

Petamocto
09-13-2015, 05:58 PM
The more the Liberals and the NDP hate eachother, the better.

We definitely don't want them working together in a minority situation.

Forbes/Hutton
09-13-2015, 06:02 PM
Getting rid of Cretin, Shiny pony and angry Tom in one move.... what's the downside to Quebec separation?

Petamocto
09-13-2015, 06:08 PM
... what's the downside to Quebec separation?

That's the same sort of emotional argument that the antis make against us.

Any sort of pragmatic and logical thought would show you how wrong you really are.

If Quebec were to ever separate, despite how good it may emotionally feel at first, a staggering amount of the rest of your life would get worse.

Forbes/Hutton
09-13-2015, 06:13 PM
That's the same sort of emotional argument that the antis make against us.

Any sort of pragmatic and logical thought would show you how wrong you really are.

If Quebec were to ever separate, despite how good it may emotionally feel at first, a staggering amount of the rest of your life would get worse.

WRONG.

graz
09-13-2015, 06:18 PM
I can't believe the libs are dredging up Cretin.

Insert "Where da fox hat" joke here.

Petamocto
09-13-2015, 06:22 PM
WRONG.

Okay, mister all caps, how am I wrong?

You think if Quebec were to actually separate that the rest of the world wouldn't automatically think that we're unstable and not worth investing in?

You think that all of that convenient provincial trade that we have now wouldn't matter?

You think that all of the infrastructure and bonds we've invested in wouldn't just evaporate with no dividends to ever be paid? You realize that the federal government has dumped/arranged a disproportionate amount of contracts into Quebec for things like military and aerospace that we'd just lose, right?

You realize that our economies of scale and effort would drop from 34 million to 26 million, and that makes us all weaker, right?

You realize that our country would be cut in half and we'd be on the hook for connecting the rest of Canada with the Maritimes, right?

Look, I'm all for slapping Quebec around when it's deserved, too, but if you're actually of the mindset that we'd be better off with them gone, then you really have no clue about the fallout that would actually happen.

Zinilin
09-13-2015, 06:27 PM
Real Change....

http://thumbnails.cbc.ca/maven_legacy/thumbnails/504/448/20150913CHRETIENMULCAIR_2500kbps_852x480_267537548 6.jpg

http://storage.torontosun.com/v1/dynamic_resize/sws_path/suns-prod-images/1297740976290_ORIGINAL.jpg?quality=80&size=650x

The irony is boundless.

Forbes/Hutton
09-13-2015, 06:38 PM
Okay, mister all caps, how am I wrong?

You think if Quebec were to actually separate that the rest of the world wouldn't automatically think that we're unstable and not worth investing in?

You think that all of that convenient provincial trade that we have now wouldn't matter?

You think that all of the infrastructure and bonds we've invested in wouldn't just evaporate with no dividends to ever be paid? You realize that the federal government has dumped/arranged a disproportionate amount of contracts into Quebec for things like military and aerospace that we'd just lose, right?

You realize that our economies of scale and effort would drop from 34 million to 26 million, and that makes us all weaker, right?

You realize that our country would be cut in half and we'd be on the hook for connecting the rest of Canada with the Maritimes, right?

Look, I'm all for slapping Quebec around when it's deserved, too, but if you're actually of the mindset that we'd be better off with them gone, then you really have no clue about the fallout that would actually happen.

Did you not notice the markets drop every time the referendum comes up? The constant threat of separation hurts Canada. They go and things will settle.

The provincial trade is one sided, Ontario honors the spirit of the agreements, providing contracts in English and French, Quebec shuts out competition from outside by requiring different training (all in French) and requiring all contracts, tenders, correspondence, etc in French.

We would lose those contracts. The contracts all will stated "province of Quebec" if the company is no longer a province, it's no longer in Canada and the contract is void. Even if the contract allows for relocation, the contract can be voided on the basis of national security since it now involves a foreign power.

Offset by manufacturers no longer having to make bilingual labels, pamphlets, etc.

"Quebec" is a narrow stripe on land along the St. Lawrence. The natives in northern Quebec have already made it clear that they are staying with Canada.

Foxer
09-13-2015, 06:46 PM
You think if Quebec were to actually separate that the rest of the world wouldn't automatically think that we're unstable and not worth investing in? No.


You think that all of that convenient provincial trade that we have now wouldn't matter? I think it would matter to quebec. I suspect the rest of us would be in a pretty good position to dictate terms.


You think that all of the infrastructure and bonds we've invested in wouldn't just evaporate with no dividends to ever be paid? no.
You realize that the federal government has dumped/arranged a disproportionate amount of contracts into Quebec for things like military and aerospace that we'd just lose, right? and would now go to other provinces.


You realize that our economies of scale and effort would drop from 34 million to 26 million, and that makes us all weaker, right?I think a lot of quebecers would choose to be in canada when the split occurred. And I think all of the immigration that now goes to quebec would likely be going elsewhere.


You realize that our country would be cut in half and we'd be on the hook for connecting the rest of Canada with the Maritimes, right? You're assuming the part of quebec that was gifted when they joined Canada would stay with them. However - in any case, alaska and the us seem to pull it off.




Look, I'm all for slapping Quebec around when it's deserved, too, but if you're actually of the mindset that we'd be better off with them gone, then you really have no clue about the fallout that would actually happen. THere would be very short term disruption. But in the mid to long term - given how disruptive and destructive and EXPENSIVE quebec is, there is a solid argument that we would be much better off. I'm sorry - for 100 years or more many in canada especially in the west have had to jump and suffer every time quebec decides it wants something or isn't spending enough money. And how much time and money has been spent dealing with their petty little issues which should have been spent dealing with problems of the country?

At the moment quebec seems to have smartened up a little and has rejected the seperatist gov'ts and attitudes we've seen for so long. So, maybe it's worth waiting and seeing. But based on their history I wouldn't be crying any tears if they left.

Hey - in a perfect world they'd want to be here and want to be part of Canada and to contribute TO it rather than demanding FROM it, and we'd be a stronger happier nation for it. But - that's not been the case. And all i can say is that at this point they're just damned lucky that the rest of us never got to vote in a referendum about whether they should stay or not.

Petamocto
09-13-2015, 06:50 PM
The constant threat of separation hurts Canada. They go and things will settle.

This isn't like a strong guy dating a crazy girl, and if he finally dumps her, he can finally get his life on track, you know.

This a massive chunk of land in the middle of us with 7.9 million people, or 22% of our population.

You can't just lop that off and say "okay, well that's solved, we're all better now that the cancer is gone".

The rest of what's left would be completely piece meal. You'd have the Maritimes completely cut off, Ontario, and central/western Canada all fighting for their share of what was left, and the rest of the world wouldn't even bother.

It would likely mean assimilation into either the US or Russia. I hate how Quebec acts sometimes, too, but there's no way Canada survives that loss.

Forbes/Hutton
09-13-2015, 06:57 PM
This isn't like a strong guy dating a crazy girl, and if he finally dumps her, he can finally get his life on track, you know.

This a massive chunk of land in the middle of us with 7.9 million people, or 22% of our population.

You can't just lop that off and say "okay, well that's solved, we're all better now that the cancer is gone".

The rest of what's left would be completely piece meal. You'd have the Maritimes completely cut off, Ontario, and central/western Canada all fighting for their share of what was left, and the rest of the world wouldn't even bother.

It would likely mean assimilation into either the US or Russia. I hate how Quebec acts sometimes, too, but there's no way Canada survives that loss.

WRONG.

Foxer
09-13-2015, 07:00 PM
This isn't like a strong guy dating a crazy girl, and if he finally dumps her, he can finally get his life on track, you know.

This a massive chunk of land in the middle of us with 7.9 million people, or 22% of our population.

You can't just lop that off and say "okay, well that's solved, we're all better now that the cancer is gone".

The rest of what's left would be completely piece meal. You'd have the Maritimes completely cut off, Ontario, and central/western Canada all fighting for their share of what was left, and the rest of the world wouldn't even bother.

It would likely mean assimilation into either the US or Russia. I hate how Quebec acts sometimes, too, but there's no way Canada survives that loss.
The maritimes would be seperated but frankly all of quebec's infrastructure tends to lead out to the rest of Canada. THeir only other choice to recieve or move goods would be the US, who would be even less sympathetic. So i'm pretty confident that there's room to negotiate a pretty reasonable access :) Especially if quebec still wants maritime power.

And it's more like quebec is the abusive husband. I'm sorry, but 'we should stay together for the kids' just doesn't fly. We'd get along just fine, and at least we could ditch this stupid business of having french on all our packaging.

IF they don't want to be here - REALLY want to be here - we don't want them. Something for quebec to consider.

Petamocto
09-13-2015, 08:02 PM
WRONG.


WRONG.

Wow, two posts in one night with no value added whatsoever.

Thank you for this very mature debate, it has been a pleasure trying to understand each other's point of view.

Zinilin
09-13-2015, 08:04 PM
Wow, two posts in one night with no value added whatsoever.

Thank you for this very mature debate, it has been a pleasure trying to understand each other's point of view.

Actually they do add up, he is saying you are RIGHT in a roundabout kind of way.

Two WRONGS...

Edward Teach
09-13-2015, 08:08 PM
This a massive chunk of land in the middle of us with 7.9 million people, or 22% of our population.

Who says they're entitled to anything that wasn't part of Lower Canada when it belonged to the French?

http://media-3.web.britannica.com/eb-media/11/79711-004-AA3F7E3F.jpg

Petamocto
09-13-2015, 08:10 PM
Actually they do add up, he is saying you are RIGHT in a roundabout kind of way. Two WRONGS...

Mind officially blown, good sir!

http://i.imgur.com/IN6A7oQ.gif

Petamocto
09-13-2015, 08:16 PM
Again, too many of you guys are actually thinking with anit-like minds on this issue. You're working completely based off of emotions that allow you to justify truth nuggets in such a way that it shapes your opinion.

Here is an exact comparison to what you are doing:
- Guns have been used in all of mass shootings, so I am coming to the conclusion that guns are bad and nobody should have guns.
- Quebec has been involved in a lot of things that I don't like in Canada's history, so Canada would obviously be better off without Quebec.

That's how dumb this argument is.

You're completely overlooking a huge amount of factors that matter, and placing a disproportionate amount of emphasis on things based on emotions.

Any rational English Canadian would come to the conclusion that they are completely in the right to think that Quebec is spoiled and has caused grief in the past, but getting rid of them to spite them would be akin to chopping off your own leg to fix an ankle that keeps spraining. Yes it will continue to cause you grief in the future, and it's true that you will continue not to feel the occasional sprained ankle in the future, but you'll also never walk, run, play sports, or do anything like that again. Take that, bothersome ankle!

lone-wolf
09-13-2015, 08:24 PM
Getting rid of Cretin, Shiny pony and angry Tom in one move.... what's the downside to Quebec separation?

Dodging anti aircraft fire over Quebec when flying from PEI to AB

Foxer
09-13-2015, 09:01 PM
You're working completely based off of emotions that allow you to justify truth nuggets in such a way that it shapes your opinion.
It would appear that you are the one with the more emotionally based argument. You've said it's 'wrong' and we're somehow bad people for thinking it's not, and each of the few points you've put out have been refuted but you're not addressing that.

Yes, it's the second best solution. First best is quebec actually joins canada and isn't a collossal money and time suck. The THIRD best is they stay and remain a collossal money and time suck. The second best is they go.

The main things that other countries want will still be in "Canada". Oil, lumber, food, tech, manufacturing, etc. Other countries will still deal with us just fine. As to the political power, if anything it will be more balanced, with the west having slightly fewer votes than ontario, but not enough to be a serious imbalance as it was in years gone by, and the maritimes will actually gain influence which would appeal to them.

And of course - Quebec is the largest net beneficiary of equalization and transfer payments. They are very expensive to have around. for decades they have not contributed to the over all national pie, and it's not looking like they intend to in the near future. And that's when they're NOT screwing around their neigbours in power deals. So... we'd actually enjoy a significant fiscal benefit in the mid to long term.

The only people who would REALLY suffer if they left is the people of quebec. They would have far less money to fund their services which they can't afford now, there would be greater instability for a number of years, and they would no longer have any say or power in the affairs of the countries around them. They would have first nations issues up the ying yang i suspect, and their entire trade routes and power infrastructure would be dependant on other countries. And they would lose out on all those gov't contracts to companies like bombardier (who would inevitably move to somewhere in 'Canada'). Their culture would come under even MORE pressure and it would be harder to maintain their french language and heritage.

But serously - the rest of us are done with playing their games. We've tried and been abused for many decades and that has to stop. So - in or out. Don't get me wrong - it's not about punishing them. As the saying goes - we don't want them to go away mad, we just want them to go away.

Petamocto
09-13-2015, 09:24 PM
But serously - the rest of us are done with playing their games. We've tried and been abused for many decades and that has to stop. So - in or out. Don't get me wrong - it's not about punishing them. As the saying goes - we don't want them to go away mad, we just want them to go away.

Can't be done without sacrificing ourselves, sorry.

I have zero emotions involved here, because I know how emotions feel, and when I was 18 I was saying the same dumb things that are being said here.

There is no possible way Canada splits up without everyone suffering a net loss in the end, period.

You'll feel better that Canada will be English-only, but everything will cost more and you'll be paying more taxes, congratulations.

FALover
09-13-2015, 09:32 PM
Another Quebec separation thread!!! WOO! HOO! If I were king of this land I would pull my dusty old plans out of my desk for just this subject.


King FAL's Separation Agreement for the Betterment of Canada.

1. All military personnel and equipment is secured against theft and sabotage. The military would be pulled out over time but would still be used to protect Canadian government and private interests until no longer needed.
2. All Federal government operations make a timely evacuation of the Sovereign State of Quebec.(SSQ)
3. All Federal transfer payments stop immediately.
4. The Saint Lawrence Seaway being an international venture between Canada and the United States will be protected from trespassers and possible terrorist threats that may originate in the SSQ. This will be done by erecting a barricade of walls, fences and other guarded points of entry. This barricade will extend from a distance of two kilometers from both the south and north of the waterway where feasible. Urban or industrial areas encroaching on the waterway would have to be divided by more secured means.
5. As Canada has an interest in the well being of indigenous First Nations peoples, these groups will be given a new Territory that would follow a line from Rouyn-Noranda SSQ east to Labrador City NL and extend north to the border with Nunavut. The new Territory would then have the natural resources as a means to prosperity. The James Bay hydro electric complexes would be 'sold' to the new government for a nominal price and new energy supply contracts would be in order so that Canada's newest addition would be financially stable.
6. Canada would have ONE official language.
7.The SSQ would have to find it's own currency.
8. Canadian passports would be valid until they expired. The SSQ would then have to issue it's own passport to those who required one. There would be no proper border crossings as the Ontario-SSQ border would be difficult to patrol but crossing through the Saint Lawrence Security Zone and onward into the USA would be regulated as it is now. Any residents of the SSQ who come into other parts of Canada would need to show a passport if demanded by the CBSA/RCMP or any other law enforcement agency.
9.The Montreal Canadiens would have to make other arrangements to remain in the NHL.

As the dust settles from these drastic changes the next turn of events would be the transformation of the GTA into it's own city/state, but that is an entirely different subject.


:Beer time:

Foxer
09-13-2015, 09:34 PM
Can't be done without sacrificing ourselves, sorry.

Sure it can.


There is no possible way Canada splits up without everyone suffering a net loss in the end, period.

Show me your math. I've already mentioned mitigating factors for the issues you brought up, what am i missing.


You'll feel better that Canada will be English-only, but everything will cost more and you'll be paying more taxes,
Again - you say that but in reality i've already show that we would likely enjoy a tax benefit. So... where are you getting those numbers from?

Rory McCanuck
09-13-2015, 09:48 PM
I seem to remember a figure of 2 billion a year as the cost for printing everything in both languages, but that is from more than 20 years ago. Of course, that figure may hae been over drinks, and I can't substantiate them right now, but gimme another beer...

Huh, guess prices haven't gone up that much. Here HuffPo is saying 2.4 billion a year, and that's only 3 years ago.
http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2012/01/16/bilingualism-canada-cost-french_n_1209205.html

soulchaser
09-14-2015, 03:22 PM
Was ANYONE (besides the usual suspects - The Bloc) talking about this topic before these nimrods opend their yaps?

Foxer
09-14-2015, 03:30 PM
Was ANYONE (besides the usual suspects - The Bloc) talking about this topic before these nimrods opend their yaps?

honestly even the bloc was being pretty quiet about it.

kennymo
09-14-2015, 05:22 PM
honestly even the bloc was being pretty quiet about it.

Being knocked back to 5% behind the Conservatives in the polls because of your party's core values will do that....

Baddog377
09-14-2015, 09:36 PM
I'm thinking we would see a mass exidous of immigration out of Quebec should a separation vote succeed. My understanding was, they are already having somewhat of a problem keeping their young,best and brightest who are leaving for better opportunities elsewhere in Canada.

oilman28
09-15-2015, 06:23 PM
Again, too many of you guys are actually thinking with anit-like minds on this issue. You're working completely based off of emotions that allow you to justify truth nuggets in such a way that it shapes your opinion.

Here is an exact comparison to what you are doing:
- Guns have been used in all of mass shootings, so I am coming to the conclusion that guns are bad and nobody should have guns.
- Quebec has been involved in a lot of things that I don't like in Canada's history, so Canada would obviously be better off without Quebec.

That's how dumb this argument is.

You're completely overlooking a huge amount of factors that matter, and placing a disproportionate amount of emphasis on things based on emotions.

Any rational English Canadian would come to the conclusion that they are completely in the right to think that Quebec is spoiled and has caused grief in the past, but getting rid of them to spite them would be akin to chopping off your own leg to fix an ankle that keeps spraining. Yes it will continue to cause you grief in the future, and it's true that you will continue not to feel the occasional sprained ankle in the future, but you'll also never walk, run, play sports, or do anything like that again. Take that, bothersome ankle!

Its not so much that we want to kick Quebec out of Canada, we are just sick and tired of giving in every time they whine and complain about something. No matter how much money is sent their way or how many policies are created to benefit Quebec they keep complaining and still want more. People are getting sick and tired of it, especially out west. Usually we are the ones getting screwed over to benefit Quebec and eastern Canada. I think in my lifetime either Quebec is eventually going to separate to preserve its "distinct culture" or the western provinces are going to separate because they will either get sick of funding the rest of the country or another NEP like plan will be attempted to steal our resource money.