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View Full Version : Bill C-19 - The actual bill, as passed by the government



blacksmithden
04-09-2012, 09:33 PM
http://www.parl.gc.ca/HousePublications/Publication.aspx?Docid=5388414&file=4

Could someone with more computer knowledge than I, please download that, and get it into a text format that's suitable for a post ? I keep trying, but it always winds up a horrible mess. Thanks.

Now...here's the one small section that seems to be a point of contention between gun owners.



23. A person may transfer a firearm that is neither a prohibited firearm nor a restricted firearm if, at the time of the transfer,


(a) the transferee holds a licence authorizing the transferee to acquire and possess that kind of firearm; and


(b) the transferor has no reason to believe that the transferee is not authorized to acquire and possess that kind of firearm.

AND

23.1 (1) A transferor referred to in section 23 may request that the Registrar inform the transferor as to whether the transferee, at the time of the transfer, holds and is still eligible to hold the licence referred to in paragraph 23(a), and if such a request is made, the Registrar or his or her delegate, or any other person that the federal Minister may designate, shall so inform the transferor.

My interpretation of that is, as long as the person I'm transfering the firearm to says they have a license...AND....I have no reason to believe that they don't, I'm ok to give them the firearm.

My question is....Is there ANYWHERE in there that actually says I must physically see their PAL, or see a copy of their PAL ? Has anyone actually clarified this with a lawyer ?

Ar180shooter
04-11-2012, 04:26 PM
I believe you do. Section a) stipulates that the transferee has to have their PAL. In other sections of the firearms act such as section 23 (ammunition transfer), the wording is very similar, and it is interpreted that you need to show the PAL to prove that you have your PAL. Section b) is the catch all that makes sure the transferor does their due diligence and has no reason to believe the PAL is not valid.

BuckingFastard
04-11-2012, 04:47 PM
I thought it said but can't find it again, that you must record the firearm & buyers info for your records, basically the owness is now on you to keep a personal registry. Someone please tell I'm wrong

Ar180shooter
04-11-2012, 04:49 PM
I believe you're (thankfully) wrong on that one. Never read anything like that.

BuckingFastard
04-11-2012, 05:22 PM
Good, so far this is what I found


On April 5, 2012, Bill C-19, Ending the Long-Gun Registry Act, came into effect. The key changes are as follows:

Removal of the requirement to register non-restricted firearms
Destruction of the existing non-restricted firearms registration records
Allowing the transferor of a non-restricted firearm to obtain confirmation of a transferee’s firearms acquisition licence prior to the transfer being finalized
Until further notice, due to a Court Order issued by the Quebec Superior Court, residents of Quebec are still required to register non-restricted firearms with the RCMP Canadian Firearms Program.

It is important to note that the new law does not change the requirement for all individuals to hold a licence in order to possess a firearm. The licensing, safety training and safe storage requirements for anyone who uses or owns a firearm continue to be in force.

The legislation also does not impact registration requirements for restricted or prohibited firearms.

Ar180shooter
04-11-2012, 05:39 PM
The bold section refers to section 23.1 of the act, which reads:


23.1 (1) A transferor referred to in section 23 may request that the Registrar inform the transferor as to whether the transferee, at the time of the transfer, holds and is still eligible to hold the licence referred to in paragraph 23(a), and if such a request is made, the Registrar or his or her delegate, or any other person that the federal Minister may designate, shall so inform the transferor.

(2) Despite sections 12 and 13 of the Library and Archives of Canada Act and subsections 6(1) and (3) of the Privacy Act, neither the Registrar or his or her delegate nor a designated person shall retain any record of a request made under subsection (1).

Basically, you can call in the buyers PAL # and check that it's valid, and no record of the inquiry may be kept. This is not mandatory to call it in; however, it can be useful in situations such as dealing on line, where the actual PAL cannot be inspected.

blacksmithden
04-11-2012, 07:29 PM
I believe you do. Section a) stipulates that the transferee has to have their PAL. In other sections of the firearms act such as section 23 (ammunition transfer), the wording is very similar, and it is interpreted that you need to show the PAL to prove that you have your PAL. Section b) is the catch all that makes sure the transferor does their due diligence and has no reason to believe the PAL is not valid.

I hate to be a pain, but, could you do a cut and paste of section "b" ? Word is getting around that the registry is dead and I'm "the gun guy" at work. I've had 4 different people stop me in the shop so far asking me for specifics on what's changed. Personally, I will not do one single thing (to do with buying/selling a gun) that the government doesn't specifically say I absolutely have to do.

Ar180shooter
04-11-2012, 08:47 PM
I hate to be a pain, but, could you do a cut and paste of section "b" ? Word is getting around that the registry is dead and I'm "the gun guy" at work. I've had 4 different people stop me in the shop so far asking me for specifics on what's changed. Personally, I will not do one single thing (to do with buying/selling a gun) that the government doesn't specifically say I absolutely have to do.

No problem.


23. A person may transfer a firearm that is neither a prohibited firearm nor a restricted firearm if, at the time of the transfer,


(a) the transferee holds a licence authorizing the transferee to acquire and possess that kind of firearm; and


(b) the transferor has no reason to believe that the transferee is not authorized to acquire and possess that kind of firearm.

Compare this to:


25. A person may transfer ammunition that is not prohibited ammunition to an individual only if the individual

(a) until January 1, 2001, holds a licence authorizing him or her to possess firearms or a prescribed document; or

(b) after January 1, 2001, holds a licence authorizing him or her to possess firearms.

It's accepted that section 25.(b) requires the recipient of ammunition to present their licence to show that they are indeed authorized to acquire it. My argument is that the same applies in regards to the transfer of firearms because of section 23.(a), and section 23.(b) goes further than that and requires the transferor have no reason to believe that the transferee is not authorized to acquire and possess firearms. Notice that the language in the two sections [23.(a) and 23.(b)] differs slightly. 23.(a) notes that the buyer must have their license, while 23.(b) says the seller must have no reason to believe the buyer is not authorized to acquire firearms. So basically (a) = buyer needs a licence, (b) = seller must believe licence is valid.

One point I made in regards to this on the other site was that the default state of licencing is to not have one, and the default state of belief in the licencing status of another person is skepticism until proven otherwise. Thus, it is necessary to establish that the person does indeed hold a PAL. IMO, in FTF transfers, look at the PAL, not expired, says Acquisition, picture matches the guy that handed it to you = hand over the gun. If you do that, I believe you are in full compliance with the law, and have covered your ass legally. There is no requirement to call it in or record and file the transfer in your own private registry. For non-FTF transfers, I'd call it in to be sure, but again wouldn't record it. This way, should you have to explain things to a judge, you can honestly say you did what a reasonable person would think is required to ensure 23.(a) and (b) were complied with.

Now, am I 100% sure that this is the case... no. But I can say with confidence that this is how most police and Crown prosecutors will interpret the new laws. Err on the side of caution, especially since this is a new law. Hopefully, some case law will come out within the next couple of years that will help determine what exactly our requirements are in regards to transfers.

Eclement
05-07-2012, 07:04 AM
The bill is past for all "Canadians" , this proves that in quebec , we are not Canadians... when will someone tell quebec to stop acting like it's own dictatorship country ...