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Marshall
11-17-2015, 02:38 PM
As some of you know we were declined an IIC for the Alexander Arms .50 Beowulf magazines earlier this year. Foreign Affair Canada said they would not issue the IIC due to the controversy surrounding these magazines and asked that we get clarification on the matter from the RCMP. I then wrote to the RCMP asking for said clarification back in May and just now received their response. The following is a direct quote for the letter we received.

The 50 Beowulf Magazine
In the case of AR platform rifles chambered for 50 Beowulf calibre, the magazine is adapted from the original 5.56x45 NATO version of the magazine, generally by one or more of the following: widening the space between the magazine lips, changing the angle of the magazine lips and changing the feed angle of the magazine follower. The adaptations more efficiently feed the much larger diameter 50 Beowulf calibre cartridge. However, the original ability to contain and feed 5.56x45 mm NATO cartridges has not been deleted and the magazines remain serviceable for that purpose.
The 50 Beowulf cartridge is centrefire and the AR platform rifles which use that calibre are semiautomatic. Thus, cartridge magazines for 50 Beowulf calibre firearms are prohibited if more than five 50 Beowulf cartridges can be contained in the magazine (subparagraph ii, as above).
Magazines for the AR platform which contain four or five 50 Beowulf calibre cartridges present a more complicated situation. Such magazines will generally contain 11 and 14 cartridges respectively of 5.56x45 mm NATO (or 223 Remington) calibre. Since the 50 Beowulf calibre magazines are adapted from the original 5.56x45 mm NATO design and the ability of the magazine to perform as originally designed has not been compromised by the adaptation, such magazines are prohibited if they contain more than five 5.56x45 mm NATO cartridges. The magazines are in effect dual calibre magazines and will be prohibited if they exceed five shots capacity of either calibre.
Magazines have recently been manufactured in, or imported into Canada bearing markings suggesting they are exclusively designed for 50 Beowulf ammunition, and at four or five shot capacity, are non-prohibited magazines. This is simply not the case. All magazines for 50 Beowulf calibre AR platform firearms presently on the Canadian market are prohibited devices.
AR Platform Upper Receivers
You had also asked about 50 Beowulf calibre AR upper receivers. Your understanding is correct that they are not prohibited.

Yours Sincerely,
Manager,
Specialized Firearms Support Services
Firearms Investigative and Enforcement Support Services Directorate
Canadian Firearms Program
Specialized Policing Services


I hate to be the bearer of such bad news, but with that said, it is clear that many Canadian shooters and dealers are in possession of prohibited devices and are being lead to believe that such is not the case, so be aware.

Relating to the last item, the .50 Beowulf uppers are not prohibited, but we can only have two round magazines for them... this reminds me of my good friend who offers PAL classes. He has a sign in the classroom that he often points to when students ask questions about our gun laws... the sign says "It doesn't have to make sense, It's the Government"

The entire letter is quite lengthy so if anyone wants to see the whole thing send me a PM and I'll forward it to you.

Deuce-deuce
11-17-2015, 03:01 PM
Oh noes... Our great over lords strike again.

Doug_M
11-17-2015, 03:19 PM
Have you sent a copy of that letter to any of the rights orgs such as the CSSA?


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Tactical870
11-17-2015, 03:34 PM
Is this verified? Has Bulletin #72 changed?

fenceline
11-17-2015, 03:37 PM
Is this verified? Has Bulletin #72 changed?

Nope. They are saying that the magazine is designed for two calibres, so as per the rule the bulletin attempts to explain, if it is designed for two calibres, it will be limited to 5 rounds of the smaller calibre.

They are claiming that the dual feeding capability isn't a happy random occurrence, and that the mags were designed to feed both calibres. Hence why they say it is limited to 5 rounds of 223/556.

webster
11-17-2015, 03:49 PM
Reminds me of the Sig brace in the US. The feds will tolerate it in a don't ask, don't tell sort of way, but keep waving it in their face and they'll eventually come out and say "We know what you're doing, and you can't do it anymore." Next up will be rifles that accept pistol mags.

Run 'n' Gun
11-17-2015, 03:56 PM
Wasn't there a post on here back in the summer about the RCMP's next target (pun intended) was magazine capacity, but it was side lined due to the election call (or something like that)?

lone-wolf
11-17-2015, 04:04 PM
Marshall, you do import/export, can you ship me to Maine? Leave no return address.

GotSauer
11-17-2015, 04:13 PM
So, I’m guessing, the .40cal pistol magazines in a 9mm pistol will be next?

The Joe-Man
11-17-2015, 04:19 PM
The 50 Beowulf Mags take extra 5.56 rounds in EXACTLY the same way that .40 S&W mags take extra 9mm. Do I have to re-pin my .40 S&W mags to 10 rounds of 9mm now? No? Then shove your opinion up your ass "Manager of Specialized Firearms Support Services".

tdod101
11-17-2015, 04:19 PM
So you had to open your big mouth to the RCMP demanding clarification and ended up screwing everyone in the process. Good job eh!

TV-PressPass
11-17-2015, 04:19 PM
Well that was f###in fast.

RangeBob
11-17-2015, 04:25 PM
So, Iím guessing, the .40cal pistol magazines in a 9mm pistol will be next?

This is what "Special Bulletin for Businesses No. 72" says today:


5. Magazines for semiautomatic handguns which contain more than ten (10) rounds of a different calibre

Magazines designed to contain centrefire cartridges and designed or manufactured for use in a semiautomatic handgun, are limited to 10 cartridges. The capacity is measured by the kind of cartridge the magazine was designed to contain. In some cases the magazine will be capable of containing more than 10 rounds of a different caliber; however that is not relevant in the determination of the maximum permitted capacity.

Example:
Heckler and Koch P7 pistol chambered for 9mm Luger caliber:
The magazine designed for the 40 S&W calibre variant of the pistol will hold 13 cartridges of 9mm Luger calibre and function in the 9mm Luger calibre P7 pistol. This is permissible as the maximum permitted capacity of the 40 S&W calibre magazine must be measured by the number of 40 S&W calibre cartridges it is capable of holding, which is 10 such cartridges in the case of the HK P7 pistol magazine.

-- http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/cfp-pcaf/bulletins/bus-ent/20110323-72-eng.htm


In the case of the LAR, that used to be handled under
"4. Magazines designed for one firearm but used in a different firearm"
circa 2015/05/04
To see the old version:
https://web.archive.org/web/20140807120651/http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/cfp-pcaf/bulletins/bus-ent/20110323-72-eng.htm

Doug_M
11-17-2015, 04:26 PM
So you had to open your big mouth to the RCMP demanding clarification and ended up screwing everyone in the process. Good job eh!

Did you not read (or perhaps comprehend) the first paragraph of the op? No more importing of AA mags until RCMP clarify. So you think the importer at that point should have given up on importing those mags?


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Marshall
11-17-2015, 04:29 PM
Have you sent a copy of that letter to any of the rights orgs such as the CSSA?


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Yes... Sent to both CSSA and NFA. I'll let you know if i hear back from them.

The Joe-Man
11-17-2015, 04:33 PM
This is what "Special Bulletin for Businesses No. 72" says today:


5. Magazines for semiautomatic handguns which contain more than ten (10) rounds of a different calibre

Magazines designed to contain centrefire cartridges and designed or manufactured for use in a semiautomatic handgun, are limited to 10 cartridges. The capacity is measured by the kind of cartridge the magazine was designed to contain. In some cases the magazine will be capable of containing more than 10 rounds of a different caliber; however that is not relevant in the determination of the maximum permitted capacity.

Example:
Heckler and Koch P7 pistol chambered for 9mm Luger caliber:
The magazine designed for the 40 S&W calibre variant of the pistol will hold 13 cartridges of 9mm Luger calibre and function in the 9mm Luger calibre P7 pistol. This is permissible as the maximum permitted capacity of the 40 S&W calibre magazine must be measured by the number of 40 S&W calibre cartridges it is capable of holding, which is 10 such cartridges in the case of the HK P7 pistol magazine.

-- http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/cfp-pcaf/bulletins/bus-ent/20110323-72-eng.htm

By the definition that the RCMP are using to prohibit the 50 Beowulf mags as "dual calibre", 40 S&W mags are also "dual calibre". They are "adapted from the original" 9mm "design and the ability of the magazine to perform as originally designed has not been compromised by the adaptation".

blacksmithden
11-17-2015, 04:35 PM
Can somebody please dig up the special letter to business #75 or #76 where they already said these magazines are legal. Thanks.

RangeBob
11-17-2015, 04:37 PM
Can somebody please dig up the special letter to business #75 or #76 where they already said these magazines are legal. Thanks.

75 and 76 were about Zoraki flare guns.
http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/cfp-pcaf/bulletins/index-eng.htm#businesses

kennymo
11-17-2015, 04:37 PM
Can somebody please dig up the special letter to business #75 or #76 where they already said these magazines are legal. Thanks.

As well, did PCV not get their magazines cleared by the RCMP before production? I seem to recall something on that way back.....

Mark-II
11-17-2015, 04:40 PM
no - the 458 socom was designed to feed from a 5.56 mag. the 50beo does NOT feed from a 5.56mag

the fact that 5.56 MAY feed from a 50 mag is irrelevant - the mag is designed for 50cal.

effers... God damned effing nazis

lone-wolf
11-17-2015, 04:42 PM
Pinning 5rd beowulf magazine to what? 1 or 2?
Stay classy

Drache
11-17-2015, 04:43 PM
Pinning 5rd beowulf magazine to what? 1 or 2?
Stay classy

No from what is sounds is that if you load more than 5 rounds of .223/5.56 into the mag, that would be illegal.

Marshall
11-17-2015, 04:44 PM
So you had to open your big mouth to the RCMP demanding clarification and ended up screwing everyone in the process. Good job eh!

That was certainly not my intention... All we are trying to do is import the mags legally. The fact is we could not import them before, so there was obviously already something going on behind the scenes. All We've done is get the RCMP to openly state that their position. The fact is this interpretation is not the way I, and many others, would interpret the law and this letter is in fact contradictory to previous statements they have made. As mentioned I have forwarded this email to the NFA and to CSSA.... We'll see where it goes, but it doesn't end here I can assure you of that.

RangeBob
11-17-2015, 04:44 PM
Since the 50 Beowulf calibre magazines are adapted from the original 5.56x45 mm NATO design and the ability of the magazine to perform as originally designed has not been compromised by the adaptation, such magazines are prohibited if they contain more than five 5.56x45 mm NATO cartridges.

(a) that is capable of containing more than five cartridges of the type for which the magazine was originally designed and that is designed or manufactured for use in
(i) a semi-automatic handgun that is not commonly available in Canada,
(ii) a semi-automatic firearm other than a semi-automatic handgun,
...
-- Regulations Prescribing Certain Firearms and Other Weapons, Components and Parts of Weapons, Accessories, Cartridge Magazines, Ammunition and Projectiles as Prohibited, Restricted or Non-Restricted, SOR/98-462, http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/sor-98-462/fulltext.html

Marshall
11-17-2015, 04:49 PM
By the definition that the RCMP are using to prohibit the 50 Beowulf mags as "dual calibre", 40 S&W mags are also "dual calibre". They are "adapted from the original" 9mm "design and the ability of the magazine to perform as originally designed has not been compromised by the adaptation".

For what it's worth the .40 S&W is derived from the 10mm, so it's not technically an adaptation of the 9mm... but that's just my interpretation.... who knows.

tdod101
11-17-2015, 04:52 PM
That was certainly not my intention... All we are trying to do is import the mags legally. The fact is we could not import them before, so there was obviously already something going on behind the scenes. All We've done is get the RCMP to openly state that their position. The fact is this interpretation is not the way I, and many others, would interpret the law and this letter is in fact contradictory to previous statements they have made. As mentioned I have forwarded this email to the NFA and to CSSA.... We'll see where it goes, but it doesn't end here I can assure you of that.

You could have been like everyone else and manufactured your own. You do realize these things sold for $100 each right? I know guys with 10 - 20 of these things. That's a lot of ban hammer with no compensation.

lone-wolf
11-17-2015, 04:55 PM
No from what is sounds is that if you load more than 5 rounds of .223/5.56 into the mag, that would be illegal.

Oh well, in that case, not a big deal. I don't carry a rcmp officer to the range with me.

Doug_M
11-17-2015, 04:57 PM
You could have been like everyone else and manufactured your own. You do realize these things sold for $100 each right? I know guys with 10 - 20 of these things. That's a lot of ban hammer with no compensation.

That would be akin to sticking your head in the sand like an ostrich and hoping no one sees you. The RCMP previously stated mag "loopholes" would be their target in the coming months.


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Waynetheman
11-17-2015, 04:58 PM
No from what is sounds is that if you load more than 5 rounds of .223/5.56 into the mag, that would be illegal.

Well it says capacity of either calibre. If it were that easy then we could all run unpinned 30 rounders while not loading more than 5. Scouts honor.

The Joe-Man
11-17-2015, 05:00 PM
No from what is sounds is that if you load more than 5 rounds of .223/5.56 into the mag, that would be illegal.

I think you misunderstood it. The fact that you CAN load more than 5 rounds of 5.56 into the mags makes them prohib. Lone-wolf was correct. If you wanted to use this with a beowulf upper the mag would have to be pinned to 2-ish rounds.

Petamocto
11-17-2015, 05:03 PM
I will take this opportunity to recognize that GOC is finally getting recognition as a first class news / information forum.

Even though it's for a crappy topic, props to Aztec and Calibre for fostering GOC in the spotlight, which serves to enhance its status compared to other forums.

Smell the roses, JWIRE, you made it.

Marshall
11-17-2015, 05:04 PM
You could have been like everyone else and manufactured your own. You do realize these things sold for $100 each right? I know guys with 10 - 20 of these things. That's a lot of ban hammer with no compensation.

First, I do know what these were selling for... and it's called gouging. If you check our web site you'll see we have the original Alexander Arms 10rd mags priced at $32.99 which is what they should be worth. Second, I understand that you need to vent on someone, but that fact is this was coming down no matter what... all we did was make it known so all the guys making them here in Canada have a chance to deal with it and not be get caught off guard.

Marshall
11-17-2015, 05:07 PM
I think you misunderstood it. The fact that you CAN load more than 5 rounds of 5.56 into the mags makes them prohib. Lone-wolf was correct. If you wanted to use this with a beowulf upper the mag would have to be pinned to 2-ish rounds.

Yep two rounds is all I can fit in blocked 5.56 mag , so that's all you get if you want to shoot your .50.

CaperJim
11-17-2015, 05:09 PM
Mr/Mrs Mounties,
http://www.stickershoppe.com/mm5/graphics/00000002/SSIM0044.jpg

Marshall
11-17-2015, 05:14 PM
Marshall, you do import/export, can you ship me to Maine? Leave no return address.

We can ship them to any US address... no problem. You can pick them up there and use them when you shoot your .50 when you're on vacation... ;)
We have them shown as out of stock right now on our web site, but just send an email and we'll hook you up.

Mark-II
11-17-2015, 05:16 PM
Pinning 5rd beowulf magazine to what? 1 or 2?
Stay classy

I'm not feeling very classy right now. Unlike most who have these I do shoot a .50cal

DanN
11-17-2015, 05:18 PM
First, I do know what these were selling for... and it's called gouging. If you check our web site you'll see we have the original Alexander Arms 10rd mags priced at $32.99 which is what they should be worth. Second, I understand that you need to vent on someone, but that fact is this was coming down no matter what... all we did was make it known so all the guys making them here in Canada have a chance to deal with it and not be get caught off guard.

We can't begin to deal with it until we know what the issue is. You did the right thing; I don't believe you should be in any way held accountable. Now that we know what the RCMP stance is on the matter we can devise an action plan to perhaps challenge it. Hopefully the CCFR, CSSA and NFA take the info and run with it.

tdod101
11-17-2015, 05:19 PM
First, I do know what these were selling for... and it's called gouging. If you check our web site you'll see we have the original Alexander Arms 10rd mags priced at $32.99 which is what they should be worth. Second, I understand that you need to vent on someone, but that fact is this was coming down no matter what... all we did was make it known so all the guys making them here in Canada have a chance to deal with it and not be get caught off guard.

Yes, sorry for venting. But as far im concerned the rcmp doesnt make the law, and last time i checked, the law as written hasnt changed. so F em

Marshall
11-17-2015, 05:20 PM
I'm not feeling very classy right now. Unlike most who have these I do shoot a .50cal

I hear that. I was planning on bringing a AA .50 upper in for my own use as well... It's a serious cartridge with a lot of potential but two round a round mag limit makes it less attractive.

Marshall
11-17-2015, 05:21 PM
Yes, sorry for venting. But as far im concerned the rcmp doesnt make the law, and last time i checked, the law as written hasnt changed. so F em

Vent all you want... I have broad shoulders...

Marshall
11-17-2015, 05:23 PM
I've sent the letter to CCFR as well... their response... "Bring it on"
Like I said in an earlier post, it doesn't end here.

Mark-II
11-17-2015, 05:29 PM
I hear that. I was planning on bringing a AA .50 upper in for my own use as well... It's a serious cartridge with a lot of potential but two round a round mag limit makes it less attractive.

It's a hoot. I shoot the 465gr Lee flat point .500S&W bullet.

What it does to old computer drives..... hehe

I was thinking of a 458socom down the line, because I cast for 45-70 anyway.

May as well stick with the Sharps rifle at this point...

Oh, and I'm placing blame where it belongs, which sure as hell isn't with you. :)

blacksmithden
11-17-2015, 05:41 PM
Sorry...Special bulletin for business #72....specifically section 4...Sorry....It's been a VERY long day. How does this come into play ?



Maximum Permitted Magazine Capacity

Special Bulletin for Businesses No. 72

Background

The maximum capacity of a cartridge magazine is set out in Part 4 of the Regulations Prescribing Certain Firearms and other Weapons, Components and Parts of Weapons, Accessories, Cartridge Magazines, Ammunition and Projectiles as Prohibited or Restricted. The Regulations prescribe “prohibited devices”, and a magazine that has a capacity which exceeds the maximum permitted capacity is a prohibited device. Businesses can be in possession of prohibited devices if appropriately licensed. However, individuals may not possess prohibited devices.

The magazine regulations have been in force since 1993. However, in recent years, new cartridge magazines have been introduced which have resulted in novel situations as it concerns the application of the Regulations. There has been no change to the Regulations. Nonetheless, the application of the existing Regulations to a few new products has given the appearance of a change in the law. This has been particularly evident in the case of cartridge magazines designed or manufactured for more than one type of firearm.

Purpose

The purpose of this bulletin is to provide greater clarity on the maximum permitted capacity of cartridge magazines designed or manufactured for use in more than one kind of firearm. Note that the maximum permitted capacity of a magazine is determined by the physical characteristics of the firearm it is designed or manufactured for and the type of ammunition for which it is designed. The maximum permitted capacity of the magazine does not depend on the classification of the firearm, nor does the magazine capacity influence the classification of the firearm.

Current Issues

1. Magazines designed or manufactured for both rimfire calibre rifles and handguns

Magazines designed to contain rimfire cartridges and designed or manufactured for use in a rifle do not have a regulated capacity. However, magazines designed to contain rimfire cartridges and designed or manufactured for use in a semiautomatic handgun are limited to 10 cartridges. Magazines designed or manufactured for use in both rifles and semiautomatic handguns are subject to the handgun limit of 10 cartridges.

Example:
Smith & Wesson M&P 15-22 rifle and 15-22P pistol chambered for 22LR caliber:
•the 10 round magazine is unregulated
•the 25 round magazine is a prohibited device

Example 2*: The Ruger BX-25 magazine, chambered for 22 LR calibre, is designed and manufactured for use in the Ruger SR22 rifle, the 10/22 family of rifles/carbines and the 22 Charger handgun. As a result, this magazine is a prohibited device unless modified so its capacity is 10 cartridges or less. (*This information was not included in the original version of this bulletin, but was added on 2013-09-05.)


2. Magazines designed or manufactured for both centrefire calibre rifles and handguns

Magazines designed to contain centrefire cartridges and designed or manufactured for use in a semiautomatic rifle are limited to five cartridges. However, magazines designed to contain centrefire cartridges and designed or manufactured for use in a semiautomatic handgun are limited to 10 cartridges. Magazines designed or manufactured for use in both semiautomatic rifles and semiautomatic handguns are subject to the limit of five cartridges.

Example:
Hi-Point rifle and handgun chambered for 9mm Luger caliber:
•magazine capacities over five rounds are prohibited.


3. Magazines designed or manufactured for both centrefire calibre semiautomatic rifles and other (non-semiautomatic) rifles

Magazines designed to contain centrefire cartridges and designed or manufactured for use in a semiautomatic rifle are limited to five cartridges. However, magazines designed to contain centrefire cartridges and designed or manufactured for use in a rifle other than a semiautomatic or automatic rifle, do not have a regulated capacity. Magazines that are designed or manufactured for use in both semiautomatic rifles and other (non-semiautomatic) rifles are subject to the semiautomatic rifle limit of five cartridges.

Example:
Remington model 7615 pump action rifle chambered for 223 Remington caliber:
•the 10 round magazine is prohibited
•the five round magazine is unregulated


4. Magazines designed for one firearm but used in a different firearm

The maximum permitted capacity of a magazine is determined by the kind of firearm it is designed or manufactured for use in and not the kind of firearm it might actually be used in. As a consequence, the maximum permitted capacity remains the same regardless of which firearm it might be used in.
Example:
The Marlin model 45 (Camp Carbine) rifle chambered for 45 Auto caliber uses magazines designed and manufactured for the Colt 1911 handgun, therefore the seven round and eight round capacities are permitted.


5. Magazines for semiautomatic handguns which contain more than ten (10) rounds of a different calibre

Magazines designed to contain centrefire cartridges and designed or manufactured for use in a semiautomatic handgun, are limited to 10 cartridges. The capacity is measured by the kind of cartridge the magazine was designed to contain. In some cases the magazine will be capable of containing more than 10 rounds of a different caliber; however that is not relevant in the determination of the maximum permitted capacity.

Example:
Heckler and Koch P7 pistol chambered for 9mm Luger caliber:
The magazine designed for the 40 S&W calibre variant of the pistol will hold 13 cartridges of 9mm Luger calibre and function in the 9mm Luger calibre P7 pistol. This is permissible as the maximum permitted capacity of the 40 S&W calibre magazine must be measured by the number of 40 S&W calibre cartridges it is capable of holding, which is 10 such cartridges in the case of the HK P7 pistol magazine.

For more information, please contact the RCMP Canadian Firearms Program by one of the following methods:
telephone: 1 800-731-4000
web site: www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/cfp-pcaf/index-eng.htm
e-mail: cfp-pcaf@rcmp-grc.gc.ca

This bulletin is intended to provide general information only. For legal references, please refer to the Firearms Act, the Criminal Code and Regulations. Provincial, territorial and municipal laws, regulations and policies may also apply.

Petamocto
11-17-2015, 05:49 PM
Error, please delete.

Marshall
11-17-2015, 05:51 PM
Sorry...Special bulletin for business #72....specifically section 4...Sorry....It's been a VERY long day. How does this come into play ?

Hence the contradiction I referred to earlier.

greywolf67nt
11-17-2015, 05:54 PM
As per my comments above, it is not going unnoticed that since this story "broke" on GOC, it is conspicuously unseen on CGN.

Lots of talk here, and especially on the GOC and Calibre Mag Facebook pages, but SFA on CGN.

I love it. It's almost like it's intentionally going unmentioned on CGN, because they'll have to admit that they may not be the best forum.

I hate to rain on your parade but I was just on and there are at least 3 threads going on about this

tdod101
11-17-2015, 05:55 PM
Do you have a scan or copy or even a screen grab of this RCMP letter? that would really help legitamize this issue. feel free to black out any personal info

Marshall
11-17-2015, 06:09 PM
Do you have a scan or copy or even a screen grab of this RCMP letter? that would really help legitamize this issue. feel free to black out any personal info

Pm me your email address and I'll forward the email.

Petamocto
11-17-2015, 06:15 PM
I hate to rain on your parade but I was just on and there are at least 3 threads going on about this

Bah, you're right. I was searching for "Beowolf" not "Beowulf".

Disregard and carry on, I can admit when I'm wrong.

But now, something completely different:

You want my Beowulf mags?

http://freedomoutpost.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/cold-dead-hands-man.jpg

Mark-II
11-17-2015, 06:24 PM
8 members and 89 guests browsing....smile and wave, boys; smile and wave...

tdod101
11-17-2015, 06:31 PM
Pm me your email address and I'll forward the email.

PM sent

FALover
11-17-2015, 06:45 PM
8 members and 89 guests browsing....smile and wave, boys; smile and wave... Uninvited guests or party crashers?

greywolf67nt
11-17-2015, 07:42 PM
Bah, you're right. I was searching for "Beowolf" not "Beowulf".

Disregard and carry on, I can admit when I'm wrong.

But now, something completely different:

You want my Beowulf mags?

http://freedomoutpost.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/cold-dead-hands-man.jpg

Ok Petamocto you are the KING.
I just went and looked at the thread over there and right at the bottom (surprised it is still there) the OP states he found it posted on here and copied it over.
GOC is still leading the way :bananna:

Neil Burke
11-17-2015, 08:01 PM
Doesn't this also affect shotguns in so far as tubular magazines being originally designed for a shorter cartridge?

Petamocto
11-17-2015, 08:03 PM
Doesn't this also affect shotguns in so far as tubular magazines being originally designed for a shorter cartridge?

Oh my god, man, don't post things like this?!

Neil Burke
11-17-2015, 08:50 PM
Oh my god, man, don't post things like this?!

You're kidding yourself if you think it hasn't already crossed their mind. Beowulf, just like the SA and CZ, are low hanging fruit. It would affect a lot more people if they went after the shotguns or the 40 s&w mags based on the same logic than the 50 Beo.

Marshall
11-17-2015, 09:01 PM
It is notable that I sent the request for clarification back in May and only now, after the election, did they respond to me... coincidence?? I think not.

livewire0129
11-17-2015, 09:25 PM
8 members and 89 guests browsing....smile and wave, boys; smile and wave...

Foxer's still writing his novel :)

Foxer
11-17-2015, 09:30 PM
Foxer's still writing his novel :)

Shut up, you. :)

Foxer
11-17-2015, 09:45 PM
For those wondering about the apperent contradiction, they're still saying that magazines designed for one gun are ok if they HAPPEN to fit in another gun.

They claim that the difference here is that it's a magazine designed for two guns. It's 'designed' to fit in a 223 based platform AND a 50 platform, thus being one mag designed for two guns.

That might well be hard for them to argue if it goes to court. The law does say that if a magazine is 'modified' from the original it doesn't count - and mags that are specifically designed for the 50 are designed for the 50.

It doesn't affect things like shotguns because of the nature of tube fed magazines. What was the 'original' capacity of a tube? How was the tube 'modified', etc. Shotguns have always held all kinds of different sizes so while they can say that the ar mags were originally designed for 223 you can't say all shotgun tube mags were originally designed for 2 3/4 or 3 inch or 2.5 or whatever.

Well we knew they were waiting for the results of the election to pick some of the fights they've had in mind so i guess this was inevitable. I don't know what the 'judges' are going to say but at least there's a reasonable chance of winning under the current law, tho i suspect that the powers that be will be looking for ways to come down on the cop's side.

Drache
11-17-2015, 10:48 PM
The law does say that if a magazine is 'modified' from the original it doesn't count - and mags that are specifically designed for the 50 are designed for the 50.

Their argument is, the beowulf mags are just modified 223/556 magazines. Thus the whole law of "what they are originally designed for" comes into play (according to them).

Foxer
11-17-2015, 11:13 PM
Their argument is, the beowulf mags are just modified 223/556 magazines. Thus the whole law of "what they are originally designed for" comes into play (according to them).

Well - more or less, although they're really arguing that they're designed for both - 'dual' designed so to speak. That it's not really a modification, it's actually a design intended to be used for both in the same gun platform. While they use the word 'modified', what they seem to really be saying is that the new design was specifically 'redone' to deliberately suit either chambering and thus it was 'designed' for both.

If you actually modify a magazine to fit a different gun, then the 'original' design doesn't necessarily apply any more, but they're saying it's designed for both.

Now - i don't know if they're going to be able to sell that. It gets a little iffy. I think we would argue that ANY mag that works for 50 beowolf would have to work for 223 and it's not designed that way, it's just the way it is. And there is no way to make a 50 without it also being able to take 223 without a lot of special engineering. So - it IS a 'happy circumstance' that they work for both, not by 'design'. They argue it the other way around, that it's by design and not a 'happy circumstance'.

We'll see how it plays out. They are in a very grey area and i'm not sure how another authority will see it, although they tend to favour the police historically

Marshall
11-17-2015, 11:30 PM
I don't know about other brands, but the Alexander Arms ones which we intended to import are specifically made for the .50 Beowulf rounds. It even says on the their web site that they will only feed .50 Beowulf so therefore this is not in accordance with the law as I understand it. I've responded with this point so we'll see what he has to say... if anything.

RangeBob
11-17-2015, 11:33 PM
They claim that the difference here is that it's a magazine designed for two guns. It's 'designed' to fit in a 223 based platform AND a 50 platform, thus being one mag designed for two guns.

My read was that they felt that it was originally designed for 223,
and that it was subsequently modified/adapted using one of 3 techniques ("widening the space between the magazine lips, changing the angle of the magazine lips, or changing the feed angle of the magazine follower") to feed 50 Beowulf without deleting the ability to feed 223. This makes them prohibited.

That how they are currently is that they are now designed as dual caliber, regardless of what's printed on them, which also makes them prohibited.

Drache
11-17-2015, 11:39 PM
If you actually modify a magazine to fit a different gun, then the 'original' design doesn't necessarily apply any more

Doesn't the law concerning magazines state differently though?



Former Cartridge Magazine Control Regulations

3. (1) Any cartridge magazine

(a) that is capable of containing more than five cartridges of the type for which the magazine was originally designed and that is designed or manufactured for use in

Thus if you take a standard AR15 magazine in 223/556 and modify it to fit a .50 Beowulf cartridge and pin it to only accept five beowulf rounds, you still follow the rules of the original magazine if you try and put 223/556 back into it.

RangeBob
11-17-2015, 11:47 PM
The RCMP are suggesting the designer didn't do this bit, and that it's required:


Former Cartridge Magazine Control Regulations

(4) A cartridge magazine described in subsection (1) that has been altered or re-manufactured so that it is not capable of containing more than five or ten cartridges, as the case may be, of the type for which it was originally designed is not a prohibited device.

although that used to be about riveting.

Foxer
11-18-2015, 12:00 AM
Doesn't the law concerning magazines state differently though?




Thus if you take a standard AR15 magazine in 223/556 and modify it to fit a .50 Beowulf cartridge and pin it to only accept five beowulf rounds, you still follow the rules of the original magazine if you try and put 223/556 back into it.

Well we're kind of mixing two things up, and that's my fault for not being more clear. I worded it poorly. If you take a mag made for a semi auto and 'modifiy' it so it now works in a non semi auto for example then the round count rule doesn't apply. If you were to modify a 223 so that it NOW held 50 (especially for a different gun) then the round count also historically doesn't apply - the 'originally' in the law you quote doesn't refer to pre-mod but rather is meant specifically to ALLOW for the fact that some guns hold different amounts of other ammo (espeically shotguns). So it's the original intended round that 'counts'.

Which should mean that a mag specifically designed for 50 should be pinned to 5 x 50 even if the design came from modifying another design. Because that's what it's designed for.

Let me come at it another way - imagine that the original 223 magazines somehow managed to hold and feed 50's. You could NOT then repin them for 50's and say oh gee now i get to fit 11 223's in there. The mag was orginally designed for 223.

But - if you modify that design in ORDER to allow it to work with 50's specifically and it's no longer the original design, then It's now a magazine designed for 50's. It might happen to take 223, but it is not a 223 mag, it's a new mag based on that design which is made for 50 and there are substantial differences. It's not like you just changed the sticker.

THEY are claiming that while it was modified to fit 50's, the intent of the design is to fit 50's AND 223 and it was purpose designed for both. In other words, the designers purposely intended the mag to be used for both types of cartridges INSTEAD of designing the mag to work with 50's. In other words - the 50's ORIGINAL catridge is BOTH 223 AND 50 intentionally - not 50 by itself.

And i'm saying that because the mag was substantially changed and needed to be in order to accomodate the 50, and because it wasn't designed to be used with the 223 but with the 50 specifically, the original catridge that mag was designed for is 50, not 50 and something else. If you make a magazine that works properly for 50, it just happens to work with 223.

Which is what the law allows for. It was necessary - otherwise how the hell do you 'classify' a shotgun tube mag? you can't. If the shotgun was designed for 3.5 inch shells it's GOING to take 1inch shells, 2 inch shells, 2.5 inch shells, 2.75 etc etc. It's just a tube. You can't make one that'll take the longer shells that doesn't take the shorter ones. So the law accommodates.

And i would argue you can't make a 50 for the ar platform that doesn't also take 223. They argue that you can and these ones were specifically designed for both - or perhaps that it really is a 223 mag and the modifications are insufficient to call it a 'new' type of mag, which it clearly is. Once it is substantially modified it's a new mag.

So they're into a really grey area. Obviously they're going to make an argument that stretches the definitions and such as far in their 'favour' as possible because they hate us. but - that doesn't mean they'll get their way if another authority has to rule on it.

RangeBob
11-18-2015, 12:03 AM
There was a while years ago that greentips was having the mods lock any thread, and delete any advertisement, about Beowulf mags. Today he posted


My personal opinion is that, until the time it is published in an official RCMP bulletin that is the authorized source of interpretation or/and distributed to all stake holders in official letterhead, it is just a copy and paste of a private communication in response to an unknown inquiry.


For example, let's take CRA and tax cases as an example, a CRA employee may tell you something in a communication in response to your particular inquiry. .

Until CRA actually publishes the interpretation in their official bulletins, it is just the opinion of one employee in response to a particular inquiry by one person in one case. It is not the official published interpretation of the law by the CRA and has no legal weight, in my opinion. They can do all kind of "internal interpretations" within their organizations, but if it is not published it is not official.

I am just looking at the technical aspect of how a bureaucracy goes about making an official interpretation of the law.


It appears that RCMP only tells people privately one by one through private communication in response to certain inquiry, but they are not publishing an official interpretation bulletin in the official channel to the public for all to read per normal procedure when it comes to major interpretation of law by government ministry that has the power to do so.

Fruit for thought. Internal interpretation/policy in response to inquiry vs official published interpretation that has legal weight.


Unfortunately, people are publishing these internal letters and writing the PMO, it is going to force the hands.

People need to think ahead and look at the big picture before doing stuff. We have just induced our own Apocalypse.

==============

A response from the RCMP regarding the legality of 50 Beowulf magazines has recently been made public. In this response, the RCMP have stated that any 50 Beowulf magazine capable of holding more than 5 rounds of ANY ammunition is a prohibited device.
This directly contradicts the Canadian Firearms Act as well as previous responses from the RCMP including Bulletin 72.
Despite this contradiction, until this matter is officially resolved, as of November 17, 2015, we are suspending sales of the PCV-50.
At this time, we are not offering refunds or returns on previously purchased magazine as such sales were considered completely legal as per the Canadian Firearms Act and all information available to us at the time.
-- http://presscheckventures.3dcartstores.com/PCV-50-Gen2_p_8.html


==============

https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5762/22686706247_b8b58dae35_z_d.jpg

88 louie
11-18-2015, 12:33 AM
I don't know about other brands, but the Alexander Arms ones which we intended to import are specifically made for the .50 Beowulf rounds. It even says on the their web site that they will only feed .50 Beowulf.

I've always been curious about that statement. But Not curious enough to buy one & have it collect dust, because there actually is something different compared to other Beowulf Mags that do feed .223/556.

RangeBob
11-18-2015, 12:38 AM
I'm wondering if it will boil down to what Alexander Arms did originally.

Did Alexander Arms
a) take a .223 mag they had lying around, and bend it open with a pair of pliers, eor
b) think: we've been building and designing magazines for years, they have to have this and this and that and that, here's an autocad that will fit our new round, press that out.

If (a) then it's prohibited,
and if (b) then its originally designed as 50 Beowulf and not designed for dual caliber.

Foxer
11-18-2015, 01:42 AM
I'm wondering if it will boil down to what Alexander Arms did originally.

Did Alexander Arms
a) take a .223 mag they had lying around, and bend it open with a pair of pliers, eor
b) think: we've been building and designing magazines for years, they have to have this and this and that and that, here's an autocad that will fit our new round, press that out.

If (a) then it's prohibited,
and if (b) then its originally designed as 50 Beowulf and not designed for dual caliber.
That would be my take on it.

Booletsnotreactwell
11-18-2015, 02:41 AM
I hate to say this but I've know this was gonna happen since about a year ago.


I made a post on a certain gun website about a year ago on doing an access to information request as to why the .50 Beowulf E-Lander magazines (attempted to be imported by NRM) were deemed "dual use" and the original Alexander Arms magazines were not, here was my reasoning.


If you've ever seen an actual .50 Beowulf magazine you'll notice it shares the EXACT same CAGE code as 556 NATO STANAG D&H magazines used by the Canadian Forces. Just like all things AR15, AA probably does not actually make their own magazines, nobody is gonna setup the tooling to make aluminum stampings of magazine bodies just to give one out free with every rifle they sell. They probably piggy-backed off D&H and used standard D&H 30 round magazines, fitted them with an old school tilting type 556 NATO follower and MAYBE slightly bent the feed lips out a little bit. Take a set of calipers to a 556 D&H magazine and your overpriced AA .50 Beowulf magazine and look at the measurements.



A few members realized that I was essentially shooting us in the foot if I used that argument and sanitized anything to do with that post. I was actually amazed that nobody had noticed that yet with the product being on the market for almost a year but I also know despite keeping this on the DL that somebody would fill in the blanks at some point. Apparently today was that day.

Mark-II
11-18-2015, 07:11 AM
I saw the problem coming when these Canadian "manufactured" metal ones came out that were obviously reworked 5.56 mags - the epoxied up seams? Really? C'mon....

Then our buddies with the plastic mags that obviously were not tested thoroughly with .50cal ammo because they sure didn't feed my big blunt bullets worth a damn.

But now that the conversation is going and the cat is long out of the bag I think our buddy Rod has to do his thing and take control of the narrative.

See this 30 round mag? See the pop rivet? See how easy it is to remove? See how none of us have done that? See how we've paid big bucks to avoid a rivet? Do you think gangbangers are buying plastic .50cal mags because 30 round ones have rivets?
Given your head a shake lately?

Of course my cynicism says that will only lead to 5 round mag bodies and bullet buttons being mandated, because to a Liberal a failed policy is one that has merely not been taken to its full retard conclusion yet...

Kane63
11-18-2015, 09:20 AM
What ever happened with the Mossberg 715 magazines? This is the exact same sh*t. Someone at the lab said they were now prohibited but I don't see a change in the bulletin.

TV-PressPass
11-18-2015, 09:58 AM
See this 30 round mag? See the pop rivet? See how easy it is to remove? See how none of us have done that? See how we've paid big bucks to avoid a rivet? Do you think gangbangers are buying plastic .50cal mags because 30 round ones have rivets?
Given your head a shake lately?



That's exactly where my head is at.

Foxer
11-18-2015, 10:05 AM
That's exactly where my head is at.

Its true but it's definitely not the fight to pick when the libs are in power. They would just 'close the rivet loophole' and demand we do something even more stupid.

DanN
11-18-2015, 10:29 AM
Its true but it's definitely not the fight to pick when the libs are in power. They would just 'close the rivet loophole' and demand we do something even more stupid.

We know this fight is coming regardless; is there a way we can use this to gain momentum with the public before the libs start drafting laws?

Foxer
11-18-2015, 10:55 AM
We know this fight is coming regardless; is there a way we can use this to gain momentum with the public before the libs start drafting laws?

well sure, there's always a way. It's usually a matter of resources and priorities - if we had endless money we could do it all :)

I think the main focus when it comes to the public is to try to get the message out that we're already under a huge amount of law and that it's getting unreasonable, and any additional laws are unreasonable and expensive and such. But we need to pick issues that they can understand in just a few sentences, and that it's harder to spin by the libs and anti's. For example - we can explain how much we have to go thru to own and shoot a handgun in under 30 seconds, and people will understand that. It will be fairly clear that adding more restrictions are pointless and that the libs are just fostering a culture of intolerance and division. But mag restrictions are more difficult - it takes time to explain the current laws and how they're limited by a pin and such, and the libs can easily counter with "ok, so we'll make it more than a pin" and " do you want a criminal to be able to shoot 5 people or 100? That's why we limit mags". And it's hard to counter that with people who's attention span is perhaps 10 seconds.

It might be even better to take a more general view and point out that Liberals already wasted 2 billion dollars going after gun owners to no benefit, and now they're at it again and it's all about division and intolerance. Why are they wasting money and resources going after us? That's something people can understand in a few seconds.

One of our most powerful points during the last time the libs were in power and grabbing guns was "You fight crime by going after the hells angels, not ducks unlimited". People got that in a second.

About 20 percent of the population knows something about guns and that gun laws like this are useless. About 20 percent are opposed to guns entirely and nothing we say or do will change that. In the middle there's the 60 percent who don't know and don't care about guns - but they are concerned about crime and getting shot and such so it's not hard to manipulate them into accepting more gun control as a 'good' thing UNLESS you can QUICKLY educate them otherwise. So the real solution is to attack gun control itself as being wasteful of money, unfair because it forces people to give up lawfully owned property that's never been misused, and divisive and intolerant.

The libs will only want to spend so much time on this and if there's no political benefit and it turns people off, they'll put in the minimum amount needed to keep their people happy. Unlike our side (which honks me off) their side will accept 'baby steps' and won't crucify them as long as they do SOME 'good', they don't need them to ban all guns. They're playing a long game. They'll hope he gets re-elected and they can do more later.

So if we poison the well, they won't go back to it very often. We should target 'gun control laws' in general as being bad and unnecessary, rather than too many specific exmaples. The specifics just take too long to explain and sell. You can definitely put some out there for people interested but the important thing is 'liberals - gun control - bad'.

DanN
11-18-2015, 11:16 AM
We should target 'gun control laws' in general as being bad and unnecessary, rather than too many specific examples. The specifics just take too long to explain and sell. You can definitely put some out there for people interested but the important thing is 'liberals - gun control - bad'.

Yes, we need to do that.

But..

Remember the "50 things you'd be supporting if you vote for Harper" list? It was a terrible list because it was so vague about everything, but it was effective. This is the kind of thing that needs to go on a list like that of our own. I think we need to flood social media with as much information as possible to get the word out. It worked for them, maybe it can work for us.

Unlike them though, let's keep our information honest and truthful...



1. Banned .50 Beowulf magazines because they were adapted from another design instead of being designed from scratch.
2. Banned a Mossberg .22 rimfire rifle because it vaguely resembled another rifle they don't like.

Foxer
11-18-2015, 11:26 AM
Yes, we need to do that.

But..

Remember the "50 things you'd be supporting if you vote for Harper" list? It was a terrible list because it was so vague about everything, but it was effective. This is the kind of thing that needs to go on a list like that of our own. I think we need to flood social media with as much information as possible to get the word out. It worked for them, maybe it can work for us.

Unlike them though, let's keep our information honest and truthful...

No, no i don't remember that :) But - i'll bet those '50 things' were all things people had some knowledge of. or at least an opinion about. We MUST remember that as hard as it is for us to believe the general public has NO knowledge about guns, other than that guns are often used in crime and can kill so they're a little concerned. But uncle bob had one for hunting so they can't be ALL bad.

That's largely what we've got to work with. The '50 things' idea can work within our community, there's a lot of people who have some knowlege but are not engaged in the fight and don't really care that much and that can bring them around. So - good idea for a commercial for wild tv, not so good for one to air during days of our lives.

THere's really three fronts we have to work on -

the "engaged" community who cares about this stuff, but who may be misinformed or have bought into the whole 'the cpc is evil' thing the NFA was selling. Those people need to be educated and brought onside for the upcoming fight, and detail is important.


The 'disengaged' community - casual gun owners and/or hunters who know a little but don't really care enough to get into the fight. THey need to be educated and encouraged to get involved in a positive manner.

The 'not our community' average person who knows nothing, and just needs to be educated on the most basic concepts because they won't spend the time to learn more. (they are the majority)

The messages we put out there have to be tailored for the appropriate audience.

RangeBob
11-18-2015, 11:39 AM
from elsewhere



One thing I can't wrap my head around is the fact that there are .50 Beowulf uppers and they are not prohibited. So how are you supposed to feed them?


The mags that only have the floor plate stamped or have writing on the side could totally be seen as questionable. The P.C.V. .50 mags are clearly purpose built for .50 bea. Molded plastic with a cut out for the .50 rounds in the body, not curved to aid in feeding .223 ammo.

Booletsnotreactwell
11-18-2015, 11:40 AM
The 'disengaged' community - casual gun owners and/or hunters who know a little but don't really care enough to get into the fight.

I can't believe you just said that.

RangeBob
11-18-2015, 11:48 AM
from elsewhere


AS PER TONY BERNARDO OF THE CSSA NOVEMBER 18TH 11:55AM

THE BEOWULF IS NOT OFFICIALLY BANNED

So talking to Tony, 'cause he called me for something else...what timing!

It was one letter sent to one importer regarding one shipment.
It is NOT an official announcement at this time.
What the future holds, as with anything else is unknown.

Hope this helps a little.

Christine Scott
Regional Director Coordinator
CSSA
www.cssa-cila.org

Drache
11-18-2015, 11:52 AM
from elsewhere

Well that is interesting...

kennymo
11-18-2015, 11:55 AM
Well that is interesting...

I've read the same thing from several other sources 'elsewhere' saying the same thing....it's gonna get interesting....

RangeBob
11-18-2015, 11:57 AM
Lots of people talking about pinning their Beowulf mags.

Edenchef
11-18-2015, 12:16 PM
What I have personally found is the concept that these are massive seizures of legally purchased private property, without recourse and without compensation, by the whim of an unelected, unaccountable, nameless bureaucrat; generates a very positive response with non-gun folks. IMHO, it is because they can see this happening to them too, for something else. Most are totally shocked to find that we have no rights to own private property in Canada.

RangeBob
11-18-2015, 02:06 PM
from elsewhere (this is post 88), but a bit more official


CSSA Communique re: Beowulf Magazines

Despite some recent social media surrounding Beowulf magazines, the CSSA is confirming that no ban on the sale of these magazine in Canada has been issued by the R.C.M.P. or the Minister of Public Safety at this time.

All six 50 Beowulf firearms FRT numbers remain listed as legal with a five round capacity and retailers should continue to sell this product at this time:

A recent letter from the R.C.M.P. addressed to ###### Armoury in response to a denial of their International Import Certificate for these magazines was shared via social media and has caused widespread speculation that the magazines themselves have been banned. This was a private letter to one company regarding one shipment, not a Special Bulletin.

The CSSA continues to work with the office of the Minister of Public Safety regarding this issue and will release further updates as needed.

EDIT
also from
here
http://www.gunownersofcanada.ca/showthread.php?27184-CSSA-Communique-re-Beowulf-Magazines-November-18-2015&p=311343#post311343

RangeBob
11-18-2015, 02:07 PM
What I have personally found is the concept that these are massive seizures of legally purchased private property, without recourse and without compensation, by the whim of an unelected, unaccountable, nameless bureaucrat; generates a very positive response with non-gun folks. IMHO, it is because they can see this happening to them too, for something else. Most are totally shocked to find that we have no rights to own private property in Canada.

There's that (private property, compensation),
there's also the rest of your firearms being seized and destroyed because you've breached an indictable criminal code offence,
and the risk of jail,
which in turn means a loss of job, income, retirement and college education, and divorce.

Trickle Charge
11-18-2015, 02:35 PM
from elsewhere (this is post 88), but a bit more official



EDIT
also from
here
http://www.gunownersofcanada.ca/showthread.php?27184-CSSA-Communique-re-Beowulf-Magazines-November-18-2015&p=311343#post311343

Can we get the FRT numbers with their classifications sheet and should we drag them around with us like all the rest of the paperwork that we bring with us?

88 louie
11-18-2015, 03:28 PM
What a waste of time & tax payers money. 4 1/2 years ago, A global news investigative reporter put the following article together, both the rcmp & justice minister said it was legal according to our laws. So why can they continue to waste resources on something that they(rcmp) do not like & has not been involved in any crimes committed. I think this is a testing ground to see how weak our new Gov. is & what the rcmp can get away with.
Somedays, I feel Canada does not need any outside influence to kill jobs & our economy. Between Notley, Wynne & the rcmp, I'm sure we're well on our way to becoming a have not nation.

Anybody remember this article ? The comments section is good !
http://globalnews.ca/news/619165/packing-heat-how-gun-law-loopholes-tripled-canadas-rifle-magazine-limits/

RangeBob
11-18-2015, 03:45 PM
Solomon Friedman Facebook page (c/o Onagoth)


2015/11/18

Once again, the RCMP gets it wrong.
To be perfectly clear, the RCMP has no authority, under either the Firearms Act or the Criminal Code, to "prohibit" these magazines. This is the RCMP's legal opinion. No more and no less.
More importantly, it is an interpretation of the Regulations that is clearly inconsistent with both the plain meaning and the intention of the Regulations.
It is also inconsistent with the RCMP's previous Bulletin (No. 72) on the subject.
In that Bulletin, the RCMP wrote that: "Magazines designed to contain centrefire cartridges and designed or manufactured for use in a semiautomatic handgun, are limited to 10 cartridges. The capacity is measured by the kind of cartridge the magazine was designed to contain. In some cases the magazine will be capable of containing more than 10 rounds of a different caliber; however that is not relevant in the determination of the maximum permitted capacity."
That reasoning equally applies to semiautomatic centrefire rifles.
Finally, the RCMP has simply invented a new term: "dual-calibre magazines." There is no such concept in the legislation or regulations.
This is just another glaring example of politics and policy trumping legal interpretation at the RCMP.

RangeBob
11-18-2015, 03:50 PM
Can we get the FRT numbers with their classifications sheet and should we drag them around with us like all the rest of the paperwork that we bring with us?

from elsewhere


CSAAA Communique: Beowulf magazines

Despite some recent social media surrounding Beowulf magazines, the CSAAA is confirming that no ban on the sale of these magazine in Canada has been issued by the R.C.M.P. or the Minister of Public Safety at this time.

All six 50 Beowulf firearms FRT numbers remain listed as legal with a five round capacity and retailers should continue to sell this product at this time:

#121656 Alexander Arms
#124566 Alexander Arms
#128962 MGI
#122716 Stag Arms
#136602 VLtor Arms

A recent letter from the R.C.M.P. addressed to ###### Armoury in response to a denial of their International Import Certificate for these magazines was shared via social media and has caused widespread speculation that the magazines themselves have been banned. This was a private letter to one company regarding one shipment, not a Special Bulletin.

The CSAAA continues to work with the office of the Minister of Public Safety regarding this issue and will release further updates as needed.

88 louie
11-18-2015, 06:14 PM
Thanx for the FRT#'s RB. Does Anybody know which # applies to the PCV mag ?
They may not have issued a special bulletin, but by their continued stirring the puddle, at every shop I've asked, (during the last year) if they sell Beowulf mags, responded with - basically - we will not bring any of those into our stock, as the rcmp are planning something or are preventing us from importing the product, & we do not want to have $ tied up in a product that we cannot sell. Marshall's 7 month wait for a reply is pretty much proof of puddle stirring.

Trickle Charge
11-18-2015, 06:21 PM
from elsewhere

Is there such a thing as an official scanned document for the FRT numbers? Would they supply one if asked?

Drache
11-18-2015, 06:25 PM
Is there such a thing as an official scanned document for the FRT numbers? Would they supply one if asked?

There is no official scan and they don't just hand them out.

RealDeckard
11-18-2015, 06:33 PM
8 members and 89 guests browsing....smile and wave, boys; smile and wave...

It does seem like a High River style trial balloon. Pathetic they need four dozen shytbirds gauging our reaction. Nice priorities. Meanwhile, at our open borders...
..

Defenstrator
11-18-2015, 11:33 PM
<sigh> Well that was fast. While I certainly didn't support the Conservatives in all things I did like that they had recognized the RCMP brass was dicking them around, and that they had started to step on said brass's necks whenever they tried to twist things. I think we know if this missive had been sent six months ago a call would gave been made, much lIke the supposed needed delay on implementing the combined licence and permit.

I also do not blame the inporters. They were doing the required due diligence. This is not their fault.

Edenchef
11-18-2015, 11:49 PM
We must also remember that thanks to an SCC ruling, the ArrCMP are under no obligation to tell truth, when answering our inquiry's.

Sent from my Transformer TF101 using Tapatalk

3MTA3
11-19-2015, 05:02 AM
No, no i don't remember that :) But - i'll bet those '50 things' were all things people had some knowledge of. or at least an opinion about. We MUST remember that as hard as it is for us to believe the general public has NO knowledge about guns, other than that guns are often used in crime and can kill so they're a little concerned. But uncle bob had one for hunting so they can't be ALL bad.
Well that' just not true:) The general public has lots of knowledge about guns, its just that the knowledge is largely incorrect and has been gained from Hollywood and biased news reports for the most part. We all need to do our part to shift this in the right direction.


That's largely what we've got to work with. The '50 things' idea can work within our community, there's a lot of people who have some knowlege but are not engaged in the fight and don't really care that much and that can bring them around. So - good idea for a commercial for wild tv, not so good for one to air during days of our lives. I don't remember the '50 things' either- must have targeted to a specific audience.


THere's really three fronts we have to work on -
the "engaged" community who cares about this stuff, but who may be misinformed or have bought into the whole 'the cpc is evil' thing the NFA was selling. Those people need to be educated and brought onside for the upcoming fight, and detail is important. The whole 'the cpc is evil' and "Harper is evil" thing is why Trudeau won, and was pushed by many more the NFA- and they certainly had some valid points. Being forced to support Harper as a single issue "gun" voter is certainly distasteful to me. I would much rather see the gun control political football out of play.http://news.nationalpost.com/full-comment/john-robson-i-cant-vote-for-the-harper-conservatives-i-just-cant



The 'disengaged' community - casual gun owners and/or hunters who know a little but don't really care enough to get into the fight. THey need to be educated and encouraged to get involved in a positive manner.

The 'not our community' average person who knows nothing, and just needs to be educated on the most basic concepts because they won't spend the time to learn more. (they are the majority)

The messages we put out there have to be tailored for the appropriate audience. We need our community to be bigger and span all the political parties :) the disengaged community doesn't know there is a fight.

weasel
11-19-2015, 05:46 AM
Thanx for the FRT#'s RB. Does Anybody know which # applies to the PCV mag ?
They may not have issued a special bulletin, but by their continued stirring the puddle, at every shop I've asked, (during the last year) if they sell Beowulf mags, responded with - basically - we will not bring any of those into our stock, as the rcmp are planning something or are preventing us from importing the product, & we do not want to have $ tied up in a product that we cannot sell. Marshall's 7 month wait for a reply is pretty much proof of puddle stirring.

Those FRT numbers apply to firearms. PCV magazine isn't going to be mentioned.

Booletsnotreactwell
11-19-2015, 09:28 AM
I believe what I stated on page 9 should be stated again. The original AA .50 cal magazines are very likely produced off of genuine 30 round NATO STANAG magazines. This would allow them to fall under the RCMP's "dual use" clause they have created. It's not right and I'm not defending it but it's not as out there as people think because there is some basis as it stands in current law. The PCV magazines and maybe another or so which were actually created from scratch is going to be a much tougher sell for the RCMP to ban under that clause.

88 louie
11-19-2015, 09:34 AM
Those FRT numbers apply to firearms. PCV magazine isn't going to be mentioned.

Thanks, That is what I suspected.

RealDeckard
11-19-2015, 01:01 PM
They probably would love to make an Accessory Table. They are that committed to harassment.

Metatron
08-19-2016, 03:23 AM
Man this is retarded, no wonder my mags never came in.

Millwright99
12-01-2016, 07:12 PM
Any update on this situation??

Jeff Badger
02-24-2017, 11:06 AM
Hi Folks,

Regardless what the RCMP say, I can't find a single mention of "Dual Purpose" any where in the firearms act.

If there is please show it. And as such this means it is the RCMP's made up term, and since it is untested in a court of law, holds no weight with regards to Canadian Law.

Please feel free to correct me, but show facts, and legislation to back it up please.

Cheers

Mark-II
02-24-2017, 11:56 AM
Well, another dealer whose name escapes me posted a pre-order for AA .50cal mags this past week, for the low price of a hunnert bucks a pop. (which is why I can't remember who it was).

So I guess the mags are legal so long as they are so expensive that most will balk at the price.

Marshall
03-01-2017, 06:27 PM
Hi Folks,

Regardless what the RCMP say, I can't find a single mention of "Dual Purpose" any where in the firearms act.

If there is please show it. And as such this means it is the RCMP's made up term, and since it is untested in a court of law, holds no weight with regards to Canadian Law.

Please feel free to correct me, but show facts, and legislation to back it up please.

Cheers

There is no mention of "dual calibre" so you're right... it is a made up term and may or may not hold up in court depending on the judge. However, it is this made up rule that is prohibiting us from getting an IIC for them from foreign affairs.
It is this same set of rules that they are applying to the 25rd 10/22 rifle magazines now... no official laws passed, just an arbitrary decision that made a bunch of people into criminals without them even doing anything.

blacksmithden
03-01-2017, 06:45 PM
Hi Folks,

Regardless what the RCMP say, I can't find a single mention of "Dual Purpose" any where in the firearms act.

If there is please show it. And as such this means it is the RCMP's made up term, and since it is untested in a court of law, holds no weight with regards to Canadian Law.

Please feel free to correct me, but show facts, and legislation to back it up please.

Cheers

Special Bulletin for business #72, section 4 - this bulletin is active on the RCMP website.


4. Magazines designed for one firearm but used in a different firearm

The maximum permitted capacity of a magazine is determined by the kind of firearm it is designed or manufactured for use in and not the kind of firearm it might actually be used in. As a consequence, the maximum permitted capacity remains the same regardless of which firearm it might be used in.

Example:
The Marlin model 45 (Camp Carbine) rifle chambered for 45 Auto caliber uses magazines designed and manufactured for the Colt 1911 handgun, therefore the seven round and eight round capacities are permitted.

Here's a link to the entire thing if anyone wants to read more government dribble. http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/cfp-pcaf/bulletins/bus-ent/20110323-72-eng.htm

I believe this bulletin is the basis for the CSSA lawsuit over the Ruger 10/22 & Charger pistol "more than 10 round" magazine prohibition.

Sinbad
03-01-2017, 11:32 PM
Things like this are why I got insurance. $95 a year here's a link. Your less likely to be involved in a frivolous charge. If they know your backed by a 500,000 defense fund with a lawyer that specializes in firearms.

Until they fix our awful ever changing firearm laws. For me piece of mind is worth it because unless your on a site like this steadily. You never know what they plan on changing without notice. You go to sleep legal and wake a criminal

http://firearmlegaldefence.com/