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View Full Version : PREPPING 101: GUNS & GUITARS NOT GOLD & SILVER



Swampdonkey
01-22-2016, 12:58 PM
https://www.gunsamerica.com/blog/prepping-101-guns-guitars-not-gold-silver/


Too long to cut and paste.

Waterloomike
01-22-2016, 03:44 PM
You can make change with gold. Guns, well what can i say.

shootemup604
01-22-2016, 03:51 PM
It is a different type of change, with guns..

Candychikita
01-22-2016, 03:53 PM
I admit I chuckled when I read the part about the sewing machines being used as currency. If sewing machines are valuable, damn I'll be the 1% bahahah. I pawned jewelry before I considered selling some of my machines, and that was because of the space they took up, so I already know their value to me.

Making change is a problem with all items of large value isn't it? A million dollar picasso in exchange for a loaf of bread...you can't really section off a piece without destroying the value.

infidel29
01-25-2016, 09:12 PM
I admit I chuckled when I read the part about the sewing machines being used as currency. If sewing machines are valuable, damn I'll be the 1% bahahah. I pawned jewelry before I considered selling some of my machines, and that was because of the space they took up, so I already know their value to me.

Making change is a problem with all items of large value isn't it? A million dollar picasso in exchange for a loaf of bread...you can't really section off a piece without destroying the value.

well, and that's why I consider gold as kind of useless. An ounce of gold today goes for around the $1000 mark, plus some. If you are trying to barter that for something of lesser value, say a jerrycan of gas or some ammo, how in the world do you make change for it? And on 630ched in Edmonton theres some guy from the U.S trying to convince people to buy colored diamonds as a hedge instead of gold or silver. how the heck do you make change with that??

Waterloomike
01-25-2016, 09:17 PM
well, and that's why I consider gold as kind of useless. An ounce of gold today goes for around the $1000 mark, plus some. If you are trying to barter that for something of lesser value, say a jerrycan of gas or some ammo, how in the world do you make change for it? And on 630ched in Edmonton theres some guy from the U.S trying to convince people to buy colored diamonds as a hedge instead of gold or silver. how the heck do you make change with that??

cut it off and weigh it out. That's how it was done in the past and will be done in the future.

gold that is.

webster
01-25-2016, 09:56 PM
well, and that's why I consider gold as kind of useless. An ounce of gold today goes for around the $1000 mark, plus some. If you are trying to barter that for something of lesser value, say a jerrycan of gas or some ammo, how in the world do you make change for it? And on 630ched in Edmonton theres some guy from the U.S trying to convince people to buy colored diamonds as a hedge instead of gold or silver. how the heck do you make change with that??

Use silver for smaller purchases, gold for large ones.

Swampdonkey
01-25-2016, 10:13 PM
Use silver for smaller purchases, gold for large ones.

Historic value of 20oz silver to 1oz gold.

TheCenturion
01-26-2016, 09:20 AM
I've always thought it odd that it's an article of faith that 'after the fall,' people will care about gold and silver. Hell, most people won't be able to *identify* gold and silver. But really, 'Give me 1 can of that one-use-only petrol, in exchange for this shiny thing.'

Nope, if you want light, easy to carry, guaranteed trade goods, stock up on .22 ammo, cigarettes, tampons, tooth paste and brushes, soap, hard candy, stuff like that. Or learn a trade that will be in demand, and can be performed without powertools. And that list is going to be pretty far reaching. The guy that can fix old mechanical engines will be in demand, but the guy who can build, or even just describe properly to a blacksmith, a basic moving-type printer and knows a few formulas for good ink will be, too.

Waterloomike
01-26-2016, 10:06 AM
Currency can be anything that people will accept. The shiny stuff is portable, divisible and can more easily have a commonly and more widely accepted value. It's maintained it's value over time and it probably will continue to do so.

There is nothing wrong with anything you mentioned. It's all good. But it may be more difficult and hazardous to carry some of it around.

Silver may have more upside than gold. But gold will still be good.

TheCenturion
01-26-2016, 10:27 AM
Yes, but WHY? Why will gold maintain it's value, other than the exact same reason paper currency does, which is to say, everybody agrees to it? Gold has no intrinsic worth.

Waterloomike
01-26-2016, 10:36 AM
Yes, but WHY? Why will gold maintain it's value, other than the exact same reason paper currency does, which is to say, everybody agrees to it? Gold has no intrinsic worth.

Do what makes you comfortable.

However, since gold has maintained it's value for thousands of years, it will probably continue to do so.

Don't forget that paper money used to be backed with precious metals, now it's backed by nothing at all, and they print it constantly.

The Canadian economy was approaching an almost $2 trillion GDP. But there is only around $4 billion in actual printed currency. So the rest is just numbers in a computer somewhere.

I would rather have gold than numbers in a computer if everything goes to hell.

TheCenturion
01-26-2016, 11:45 AM
I must not be making myself clear.

A .22 round has value; you can put it in a gun and maybe shoot your dinner. A cigarette has value; you can smoke it and get a nicotine buzz. A bottle of alcohol has value; you can disinfect with it, clean with it, drink it, whatever. A hunk of pig iron has value; you can work it into a tool that lets you farm, or hunt, or fight, or whatever. Salt has value; you can preserve with it, you can spice with it. (And salt was used as currency for quite a while.) Personal comfort items have value; they make you feel better, clean you up, whatever.

What value does gold have, other than historical inertia?

After the fall, roll on up to that little post-apocalyptic trading post ran by a guy in little round banker's glasses, with two burly, armed men behind him. You and two other guys are there. You all want, say, a shiny machete he has up for trade, good condition.

Guy number 1 plops a bundle of furs and skins on the table. Guy number 2 plops a box of .22 cartridges on the table. You plop a shiny chunk of gold on the table. What's the point of even considering the gold?

Let me put it another way; what's the difference between a chunk of gold, and a piece of paper saying '100 US Dollars' issued by the government? Yes, dollars used to be backed with gold. But what's the intrinsic value of gold? Gold can be turned in to jewelry, modern electronics, and what? What am I missing?

I'm not trying to fight or argue, I'm trying to learn and understand. What is the value of gold, other than 'everybody believes it has value?'

Waterloomike
01-26-2016, 12:01 PM
I must not be making myself clear.

A .22 round has value; you can put it in a gun and maybe shoot your dinner. A cigarette has value; you can smoke it and get a nicotine buzz. A bottle of alcohol has value; you can disinfect with it, clean with it, drink it, whatever. A hunk of pig iron has value; you can work it into a tool that lets you farm, or hunt, or fight, or whatever. Salt has value; you can preserve with it, you can spice with it. (And salt was used as currency for quite a while.) Personal comfort items have value; they make you feel better, clean you up, whatever.

What value does gold have, other than historical inertia?

After the fall, roll on up to that little post-apocalyptic trading post ran by a guy in little round banker's glasses, with two burly, armed men behind him. You and two other guys are there. You all want, say, a shiny machete he has up for trade, good condition.

Guy number 1 plops a bundle of furs and skins on the table. Guy number 2 plops a box of .22 cartridges on the table. You plop a shiny chunk of gold on the table. What's the point of even considering the gold?

Let me put it another way; what's the difference between a chunk of gold, and a piece of paper saying '100 US Dollars' issued by the government? Yes, dollars used to be backed with gold. But what's the intrinsic value of gold? Gold can be turned in to jewelry, modern electronics, and what? What am I missing?

I'm not trying to fight or argue, I'm trying to learn and understand. What is the value of gold, other than 'everybody believes it has value?'

well, like i said before, those things also have value and will be of use if shtf.

i won't be able to convince you. you'll end up believing what you think.

if it has no value to you, then that's how it is for you.

watch this:

The Hidden Secrets of Money (https://www.hiddensecretsofmoney.com)

TheCenturion
01-26-2016, 12:17 PM
I don't believe anything, I'm trying to learn. I'll take a look at that site. Thanks.

webster
01-26-2016, 12:52 PM
Currency is a placeholder for work, basically. No matter if it's paper money, gold or silver. Its value is that it represents a certain amount of "work" that you can trade. It could just as easily be any other material, but metal is difficult to get out of the ground and refine, so an ounce of gold does represent a certain amount of "work" for someone, and if someone is willing to trade work for shiny metal, then it has worth. It's not really any different than paying with a cord of wood. You put in work to make something that someone else wants and then trade that work for something you want.

If you personally don't value shiny metal, then don't accept it as payment, simple as that. A lot of people do, though, and have for a long time.

Waterloomike
01-26-2016, 02:48 PM
Yes, but WHY? Why will gold maintain it's value, other than the exact same reason paper currency does, which is to say, everybody agrees to it? Gold has no intrinsic worth.

I overlooked this.

Paper currency doesn't maintain it's value. Inflation takes care of that. One source of inflation is printing money. Each dollar that is printed makes every other dollar worth less. When banks or governments print money, it is not wealth creation, it is debt.

But gold will pretty much buy what it always did. The price of gold in paper currency goes up or down. Mostly up for some time now.

I bet someone told you to save your money until you get older and then you can buy that shiny new car. But by the time you got older, that shiny new car cost a lot more than when you fist started saving for it.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_LWQQrpSc4

Kenwp
01-26-2016, 08:35 PM
well, and that's why I consider gold as kind of useless. An ounce of gold today goes for around the $1000 mark, plus some. If you are trying to barter that for something of lesser value, say a jerrycan of gas or some ammo, how in the world do you make change for it? And on 630ched in Edmonton theres some guy from the U.S trying to convince people to buy colored diamonds as a hedge instead of gold or silver. how the heck do you make change with that??

That,s why we call a quarter 2 bits because when they didn't have change in the old days they used to cut a silver dollar into 8ths or 12 and half cents which also is a shillings worth.

Zinilin
01-26-2016, 10:44 PM
Gold has no intrinsic worth.
Worth is a personal evaluation of a thing.

Gold however has always had value.

Most of the computing and communications equipment today requires gold.
Today pretty much anything that uses low voltage electronics contains gold.
Lots of windows, goggles and optic treatments are or include gold.
Gold is a dense, soft, hypoallergenic, malleable, ductile metal that does not fatigue or corrode; gold lasts.

Gold became valuable because of its properties and its scarcity; not because it was gold.

TheCenturion
01-27-2016, 11:39 AM
Ok, so what I'm hearing is that gold is mainly used as a currency, no different than paper currency, with the main differentiator from paper being that gold is scarce, and you can't just make more of it. Gold was settled upon, instead of, say, quartz, because it happens to be easy to work, easily identifiable, non-corroding, and otherwise relatively durable.

So the only reason it might continue to be a valuable trade good after the fall is because people will continue to use it as a currency; that is, a placeholder for value, to solve the old problem of 'you bake bread, I make arrows. I want bread, you don't want arrows, I'm utterly screwed," not because of any intrinsic worth. It won't be a barter good, it will still be a currency.

Sunshine
01-27-2016, 10:38 PM
Yes, but WHY? Why will gold maintain it's value, other than the exact same reason paper currency does, which is to say, everybody agrees to it? Gold has no intrinsic worth.

Gold can not be printed out of thin air, it costs money to mine it, and refine it. If gold had no intrinsic value then it would have collapsed like fiat currencies do. It is still here, and still highly sought after. :)

Sunshine
01-27-2016, 10:41 PM
Ok, so what I'm hearing is that gold is mainly used as a currency, no different than paper currency, with the main differentiator from paper being that gold is scarce, and you can't just make more of it. Gold was settled upon, instead of, say, quartz, because it happens to be easy to work, easily identifiable, non-corroding, and otherwise relatively durable.

So the only reason it might continue to be a valuable trade good after the fall is because people will continue to use it as a currency; that is, a placeholder for value, to solve the old problem of 'you bake bread, I make arrows. I want bread, you don't want arrows, I'm utterly screwed," not because of any intrinsic worth. It won't be a barter good, it will still be a currency.

Gold is money, it's not a currency.

Sunshine
01-27-2016, 10:51 PM
Yes, but WHY? Why will gold maintain it's value, other than the exact same reason paper currency does, which is to say, everybody agrees to it? Gold has no intrinsic worth.

What would you prefer, a hand full of gold or a handful of paper ?

Candychikita
01-27-2016, 11:05 PM
Heh. I looked at your handful of coins and thought "chocolate" BAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Clearly the only gold coins I've been seeing around here :)


And on 630ched in Edmonton theres some guy from the U.S trying to convince people to buy colored diamonds as a hedge instead of gold or silver. how the heck do you make change with that??

Diamonds are a racket. I wouldn't waste money on diamonds, resale value is shit. When I buy myself sparkly rocks it's because I like what they look like (tanzanite or opals mostly) That's just me though, and I'm not looking to resell them.

Sunshine
01-27-2016, 11:09 PM
Guy number 1 plops a bundle of furs and skins on the table. Guy number 2 plops a box of .22 cartridges on the table. You plop a shiny chunk of gold on the table. What's the point of even considering the gold?



Gold is a store of value only, it is not useful in the scenario you have painted above. It is used to preserve wealth.

The central banks are well aware of the value of gold, as are the Russians, the Chinese, The Indians, etc, and me :)

Sunshine
01-27-2016, 11:24 PM
Heh. I looked at your handful of coins and thought "chocolate" BAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Clearly the only gold coins I've been seeing around here :)



Diamonds are a racket. I wouldn't waste money on diamonds, resale value is shit. When I buy myself sparkly rocks it's because I like what they look like (tanzanite or opals mostly) That's just me though, and I'm not looking to resell them.

Some diamonds are worth mega money, others a hundred bucks, they all look the same to me. I would prefer chocolate gold maple leaves any day :)

Swampdonkey
01-28-2016, 12:29 AM
One thing dollars have over gold is that they're more transferrable. However, gold is much more easily transported than barter goods.

Waterloomike
01-28-2016, 04:52 AM
One thing dollars have over gold is that they're more transferrable. However, gold is much more easily transported than barter goods.

I think the gold is being thought of in case the dollars are no longer of any value.

TheCenturion
01-28-2016, 10:25 AM
I appreciate the discussion here, everybody. I'd like to reiterate that I'm just trying to understand the reasoning here; I have no idea how a post-apocalyptic economy is going to wind up working. I have no idea if it will or won't involve gold; I want to understand why some people think it will. But I love the thought experiment element of things like this, so thanks for indulging me.

My thinking goes something like this:

Five guys have bunkers under their houses. Chicxulub Two: Electric Boogaloo happens.

Guy number one comes out of his bunker, and has a horde of preserved food.
Guy number two comes out of his bunker, and has a horde of preserved medicine.
Guy number three comes out of his bunker, and has a horde of hunting and trapping supplies.
Guy number four comes out of his bunker, and has a horde of building materials and tools.
Guy number five comes out of his bunker, and has a horde of gold coins.

Now, in this scenario, guy number five cannot barter. He has nothing of value. You can't eat a gold coin, you can't heal with a gold coin, you can't hunt with a gold coin, you can't build with a gold coin. Unless all five people agree to use gold coins as an independent medium of trade, with a reasonably fixed idea of relative worth, guy number five may as well have a pile of sand. Though, a pile of sand might be more useful, if you happen to know how to blow glass....

Will gold really be all that useful after the fall, in the short term at least? Is the idea that people will naturally turn to it as a placeholder of value due to historical inertia? How long after the fall will it be before economies and communities get to the point of actually being willing to use a currency based, rather than barter, economy?

Sunshine
01-28-2016, 10:46 AM
Five guys have bunkers under their houses. Chicxulub Two: Electric Boogaloo happens.

Guy number one comes out of his bunker, and has a horde of preserved food.
Guy number two comes out of his bunker, and has a horde of preserved medicine.
Guy number three comes out of his bunker, and has a horde of hunting and trapping supplies.
Guy number four comes out of his bunker, and has a horde of building materials and tools.
Guy number five comes out of his bunker, and has a horde of gold coins.




Guy number six has all of the above. He made sure he had 1 2 3 4 and then he took care of # 5. Whatever happens Guy number six will be just fine.


PS, Guy number six also dug a well, he decided to dig it before his ass was on fire..... Guy number six uses his brain :)

TheCenturion
01-28-2016, 11:50 AM
Guy number six has all of the above. He made sure he had 1 2 3 4 and then he took care of # 5. Whatever happens Guy number six will be just fine.


PS, Guy number six also dug a well, he decided to dig it before his ass was on fire..... Guy number six uses his brain :)

Well, obviously it was a reductionist example, intended to invoke a basic separation of functions in a small area. Basically, I'm drawing on what happened to southern Britain after the fall of the Roman Empire; small family groups, widely spaced, subject to random raids by roving marauders, no established framework for abstracted trade using placeholders of value. Straight barter.

Put another way, if we postulate that after the fall, people will use something as a placeholder of value, if for no other reason than 'we're used to using placeholders of value, as we've all grown up using currency, rather than barter,' why would we assume that gold would be that placeholder? Why not bottle caps? Or AA batteries? Or small puppies? Or postcards with pictures of the Hoover Dam? Or those little collectable spoons our grandmothers tended to have? Is there anything about gold, other than 'historical inertia,' that makes it uniquely suited?

Or is it just common shared idea? Like people who think diamonds are actually rare and precious, people in the western world equate 'gold' with 'valuable' and therefore they'll tend to be wiling to trade in it? Maybe Aluminum will go back to it's status as 'more rare and valuable than platinum' after the modern industrial base collapses.

Sunshine
01-28-2016, 12:01 PM
Well, obviously it was a reductionist example, intended to invoke a basic separation of functions in a small area. Basically, I'm drawing on what happened to southern Britain after the fall of the Roman Empire; small family groups, widely spaced, subject to random raids by roving marauders, no established framework for abstracted trade using placeholders of value. Straight barter.

Put another way, if we postulate that after the fall, people will use something as a placeholder of value, if for no other reason than 'we're used to using placeholders of value, as we've all grown up using currency, rather than barter,' why would we assume that gold would be that placeholder? Why not bottle caps? Or AA batteries? Or small puppies? Or postcards with pictures of the Hoover Dam? Or those little collectable spoons our grandmothers tended to have? Is there anything about gold, other than 'historical inertia,' that makes it uniquely suited?

Or is it just common shared idea? Like people who think diamonds are actually rare and precious, people in the western world equate 'gold' with 'valuable' and therefore they'll tend to be wiling to trade in it? Maybe Aluminum will go back to it's status as 'more rare and valuable than platinum' after the modern industrial base collapses.


Guy number six does not worry about any event, he has learned from history

blacksmithden
01-28-2016, 12:04 PM
I've always thought it odd that it's an article of faith that 'after the fall,' people will care about gold and silver. Hell, most people won't be able to *identify* gold and silver. But really, 'Give me 1 can of that one-use-only petrol, in exchange for this shiny thing.'

Nope, if you want light, easy to carry, guaranteed trade goods, stock up on .22 ammo, cigarettes, tampons, tooth paste and brushes, soap, hard candy, stuff like that. Or learn a trade that will be in demand, and can be performed without powertools. And that list is going to be pretty far reaching. The guy that can fix old mechanical engines will be in demand, but the guy who can build, or even just describe properly to a blacksmith, a basic moving-type printer and knows a few formulas for good ink will be, too.

So, you're saying you would welcome me into your camp instead of killing me on sight ? Thanks man. It's nice to feel wanted. :D

Swampdonkey
01-28-2016, 12:39 PM
I think the gold is being thought of in case the dollars are no longer of any value.

Exactly. It's the next best thing because it rates highest in all the qualities that make dollars appealing, with fewer weaknesses.

Sunshine
01-28-2016, 01:28 PM
Exactly. It's the next best thing because it rates highest in all the qualities that make dollars appealing, with fewer weaknesses.

The problem with gold is divisibility, that's where silver comes in, both are needed......... Guy number six has that covered too :)

Zinilin
01-28-2016, 02:26 PM
... why would we assume that gold would be that placeholder? ...

Look at a Canadian One Dollar Bill from back when it was an actual document.

http://canadacurrency.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/1954-1-bank-of-canada-front.jpg

In the bottom left it reads "Bank Of Canada Will Pay The Bearer On Demand"

The paper currency is not 'a dollar' it is an I.O.U that is can be exchanged for 'a dollar'.
You need to understand money to understand the difference, for now just think currency is not money.

If you were optioning to participate in a system based on I.O.Us would you want ones that rust or break or burn or die off or would you want ones that would be exactly the same in 1,000 years?

The Properties of Gold are why it became the universal I.O.U., not because it it gold, but because it lasts.

Sunshine
01-28-2016, 02:45 PM
If you were optioning to participate in a system based on I.O.Us would you want ones that rust or break or burn or die off or would you want ones that would be exactly the same in 1,000 years?

The Properties of Gold are why it became the universal I.O.U., not because it it gold, but because it lasts. If that were true silver alone would be the metal of choice.

Zinilin
01-28-2016, 02:47 PM
If that were true silver alone would be the metal of choice.

Silver corrodes.
Silver does not last like gold.

Sunshine
01-28-2016, 03:02 PM
Silver corrodes.
Silver does not last like gold.

Gold wears easier, it is softer. I have never seen a rusty silver coin. Minting a new silver coin is at least 20 x cheaper than minting a gold one.

Zinilin
01-28-2016, 03:06 PM
Minting a new silver coin is at least 20 x cheaper than minting a gold one.

Cheaper?

(sigh)
Oh, well.

mavrik9
01-28-2016, 03:33 PM
In a shtf scenario I have no doubt that barter will be very strong. Skills, knowledge, and goods will be traded on a daily basis. I also believe gold and silver will be traded for skills, knowledge, and goods because the overwhelming majority of people believe they will continue to hold value. I'm not saying everyone will want your gold or silver for their stuff, but those who can ride out a shtf scenario to the point of civilization starting to rebuild will be better prepared. There will always be value in anything you can offer, but the worth of your contribution will be decided then and there.

Sent from my SM-G870W using Tapatalk

TheCenturion
01-28-2016, 04:46 PM
So, you're saying you would welcome me into your camp instead of killing me on sight ? Thanks man. It's nice to feel wanted. :D

Well, you might just be one of those folks that we kidnap in the middle of the night, break your ankles and set them wrong, then chain you up to the forge, yeah?

knuckledragger
01-28-2016, 05:54 PM
Well, you might just be one of those folks that we kidnap in the middle of the night, break your ankles and set them wrong, then chain you up to the forge, yeah?

Well that escalated quickly...
http://www.tvnotas.com.mx/advf/imagenes/4def78537e67d_350x0.jpg

Sunshine
01-28-2016, 07:06 PM
Cheaper?

(sigh)
Oh, well.

I think it might be. I suspect it's because it's more plentiful.

http://www.kitco.com/images/live/silver.gif

http://www.kitco.com/images/live/gold.gif?0.5340316188586542

Zinilin
01-28-2016, 07:27 PM
I think it might be. I suspect it's because it's more plentiful.


I have never seen a rusty silver coin.
Silver corrodes. It is a fact. You may be confusing stainless steal or a silvery alloy with actual silver.


Minting a new silver coin is at least 20 x cheaper than minting a gold one
That one actually made me smile.
Cheaper in what terms?
Remember we were talking about the initial creation of coins. So you can not base a cost of creating the coin on the value coins you are creating.
The cost of creating both a gold or a silver coin is the same, you need to include only mining, smelting, engraving, casting and so forth; in terms of human time (including all the time to create the tools to perform the mining, smelting, engraving, casting and so forth).

Wealth is created by adding value to natural resources. You mine it, pump it, harvest it or catch it.
Value derives from wealth.
Currency (Money) is just tokens to keep score.

Sunshine
01-28-2016, 07:46 PM
Silver corrodes. It is a fact. You may be confusing stainless steal or a silvery alloy with actual silver.


That one actually made me smile.
Cheaper in what terms?
Remember we were talking about the initial creation of coins. So you can not base a cost of creating the coin on the value coins you are creating.
The cost of creating both a gold or a silver coin is the same, you need to include only mining, smelting, engraving, casting and so forth; in terms of human time (including all the time to create the tools to perform the mining, smelting, engraving, casting and so forth).

Wealth is created by adding value to natural resources. You mine it, pump it, harvest it or catch it.
Value derives from wealth.
Currently (Money) is just tokens to keep score.


Seeing as you know so much you will certainly be on top if the system crashes. As for me, I'm just a poor peasant who has to rely on 5000 years of financial history. :)

Zinilin
01-28-2016, 08:04 PM
The Indian Rupee coin is made from stainless steel.
The face value is one rupee.
But, take the coin and add value to it and it is worth 35 rupees.


Millions of Indian coins are being smuggled into neighbouring Bangladesh and turned into razor blades. And that's creating an acute shortage of coins in many parts of India, officials say.


"Our one rupee coin is in fact worth 35 rupees, because we make five to seven blades out of them,"

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/6766563.stm

Sunshine
01-28-2016, 08:11 PM
The Indian Rupee coin is made from stainless steel.
The face value is one rupee.
But, take the coin and add value to it and it is worth 35 rupees.






http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/6766563.stm

The same is true with both silver and gold, they too have industrial applications.

Waterloomike
01-28-2016, 08:17 PM
The same is true with both silver and gold, they too have industrial applications.

It is a fact. Sony, iirc, was looking into buying a sliver mine.

The Lone Ranger makes bullets from silver.

Swampdonkey
01-28-2016, 11:47 PM
I thought Silver Bullets were made by Coors.

Sunshine
01-29-2016, 12:07 AM
If you have some money to spare there is no point in leaving it in the bank to depreciate. The banks don't want it, that's why they give you no incentive to leave it with them. They only want your debt.

Today we loaded up two shopping carts with food, thought being that we might as well spend it while it still has some value. A few years back it was worth saving, but not any more.......... Everything has changed

Waterloomike
01-29-2016, 06:15 AM
Japan's central bank just introduced negative interest rates. Europe has been fooling with that, Canada and the US have also floated the idea.

Just a few months ago, we were hearing about all this credit card debt, now people are saving too much.

looks as if state and bank efforts to channel spending are failing. Relief. people may be thinking for themselves.

Sunshine
01-29-2016, 08:13 AM
Japan's central bank just introduced negative interest rates. Europe has been fooling with that, Canada and the US have also floated the idea.

Just a few months ago, we were hearing about all this credit card debt, now people are saving too much.

looks as if state and bank efforts to channel spending are failing. Relief. people may be thinking for themselves.

You are right, but the trouble is that if you have what you need there is no incentive to do anything productive, it seems a waste. All that can be done is some cya, then go fishing. Maybe I should just be happy :)

Waterloomike
01-29-2016, 08:32 AM
You are right, but the trouble is that if you have what you need there is no incentive to do anything productive, it seems a waste. All that can be done is some cya, then go fishing. Maybe I should just be happy :)

That's one perspective. Another one is that you are freed up to do something more productive than just racing against rats. I'm not very fast and i hate rats. Fishing is productive. ;-)

762shooter
01-30-2016, 07:23 PM
I appreciate the discussion here, everybody. I'd like to reiterate that I'm just trying to understand the reasoning here; I have no idea how a post-apocalyptic economy is going to wind up working. I have no idea if it will or won't involve gold; I want to understand why some people think it will. But I love the thought experiment element of things like this, so thanks for indulging me.

My thinking goes something like this:

Five guys have bunkers under their houses. Chicxulub Two: Electric Boogaloo happens.

Guy number one comes out of his bunker, and has a horde of preserved food.
Guy number two comes out of his bunker, and has a horde of preserved medicine.
Guy number three comes out of his bunker, and has a horde of hunting and trapping supplies.
Guy number four comes out of his bunker, and has a horde of building materials and tools.
Guy number five comes out of his bunker, and has a horde of gold coins.

Now, in this scenario, guy number five cannot barter. He has nothing of value. You can't eat a gold coin, you can't heal with a gold coin, you can't hunt with a gold coin, you can't build with a gold coin. Unless all five people agree to use gold coins as an independent medium of trade, with a reasonably fixed idea of relative worth, guy number five may as well have a pile of sand. Though, a pile of sand might be more useful, if you happen to know how to blow glass....

Will gold really be all that useful after the fall, in the short term at least? Is the idea that people will naturally turn to it as a placeholder of value due to historical inertia? How long after the fall will it be before economies and communities get to the point of actually being willing to use a currency based, rather than barter, economy?

I recall reading an article by a guy who went through the seige of the city he lived in during the Yugoslav civil war. He said that what had value was food, guns an ammunition, liquor, tobacco, medicines, cooking fuel and toiletries. That makes sense to me.

Tok-man
01-30-2016, 09:50 PM
Gold and silver will always have value, because there will always be people who want them. Yes, bullets and bubble gum will also be valuable, but even post shtf, there will be people who will equate riches with power. people who will covet the shiny. people who will wish to amass and/or re-amass wealth based on a perceived value of gold/silver.

While I do agree that there are other more important things to stock up on, there will always be a value associated with gold and silver.

IMO

Sunshine
01-31-2016, 10:58 AM
I recall reading an article by a guy who went through the seige of the city he lived in during the Yugoslav civil war. He said that what had value was food, guns an ammunition, liquor, tobacco, medicines, cooking fuel and toiletries. That makes sense to me.


What does not make sense to me is why people keep saying what you have just said. Why not just say the sky is blue ?

TheCenturion
02-01-2016, 12:09 PM
What does not make sense to me is why people keep saying what you have just said. Why not just say the sky is blue ?

I think the idea is that IF gold/silver are accepted as universal currency, it makes sense to stock up on them; to some extent, it might make more sense to acquire them than to acquire other goods specifically for trade.
IF, on the other hand, gold/silver AREN'T universally accepted, they're going to be less than useless.

I've heard it said that in some thought experiements, it will swing the other way; people might be SO fixated on the perceived value of gold and silver that you're making yourself a target.

To agree with the Yugoslav comment, I'm reminded about stories of people in the ghettos in WW2 that would sling jewelry, silver candlesticks, and such like, over the wall at prearranged times and places and hope like hell somebody on the other side would sling back bags of food or supplies; within the ghetto, the gold and silver were utterly worthless as who would give up essential supplies in exchange for shiny metal?

So while gold and silver might just eventually become a defacto currency, I question weather it would happen soon enough after 'the fall' that it would be useful for you to have horded it, especially if you're buying it in lieu of practical supplies, trade goods, and the like.

Waterloomike
02-01-2016, 12:17 PM
I think the idea is that IF gold/silver are accepted as universal currency, it makes sense to stock up on them; to some extent, it might make more sense to acquire them than to acquire other goods specifically for trade.
IF, on the other hand, gold/silver AREN'T universally accepted, they're going to be less than useless.

I've heard it said that in some thought experiements, it will swing the other way; people might be SO fixated on the perceived value of gold and silver that you're making yourself a target.

To agree with the Yugoslav comment, I'm reminded about stories of people in the ghettos in WW2 that would sling jewelry, silver candlesticks, and such like, over the wall at prearranged times and places and hope like hell somebody on the other side would sling back bags of food or supplies; within the ghetto, the gold and silver were utterly worthless as who would give up essential supplies in exchange for shiny metal?

So while gold and silver might just eventually become a defacto currency, I question weather it would happen soon enough after 'the fall' that it would be useful for you to have horded it, especially if you're buying it in lieu of practical supplies, trade goods, and the like.


I don't think it will be a one and not the other situation. You would always need things that aren't currency and you will also need some sort of currency, most likely.

it will be like any other time, in that people will need things and they will be willing to trade.

Sunshine
02-01-2016, 12:18 PM
I think gold and silver are completely useless in a shtf situation. Gold and silver are the last thing you need to take care of.

Sunshine
02-01-2016, 12:21 PM
I don't think it will be a one and not the other situation. You would always need things that aren't currency and you will also need some sort of currency, most likely.

it will be like any other time, in that people will need things and they will be willing to trade.

Gold and silver are money. Currency is something that governments magic out of thin air.

Waterloomike
02-01-2016, 12:24 PM
Gold and silver are money. Currency is something that governments magic out of thin air.

I know that. You're talking to a regular Midas Mulligan.

currency, at this point, is mostly numbers in a computer somewhere. Not wealth, not paper, only debt and numbers.

Waterloomike
02-01-2016, 12:28 PM
I think gold and silver are completely useless in a shtf situation. Gold and silver are the last thing you need to take care of.

In an all out apocalypse, they probably are.

But when you need them, you won't be able to pluck it off trees or pull it out of thin air.

Sunshine
02-01-2016, 02:39 PM
In an all out apocalypse, they probably are.

But when you need them, you won't be able to pluck it off trees or pull it out of thin air.


Point I was making is that they should be the last thing you need to worry about............ After getting everything else covered.

pitw
02-02-2016, 10:58 PM
Point I was making is that they should be the last thing you need to worry about............ After getting everything else covered.
How do you know when you have everything covered? I highly doubt you can forsee every situation that could arise.

Sunshine
02-02-2016, 11:09 PM
How do you know when you have everything covered? I highly doubt you can forsee every situation that could arise.


True........ You can only do the best that you can and hope for the best :)


As it happens I very much doubt there will be anything like a total collapse, but even if there were I think I have done everything possible.


PS, And the nice thing about all my preparations is that they cost nothing.

762shooter
02-03-2016, 12:41 AM
What does not make sense to me is why people keep saying what you have just said. Why not just say the sky is blue ?

The point is that in a basic survival situation gold or silver as a medium of exchange is useless. What has value is what is needed immediately. The commodities I mentioned were needed, were put to immediate use or were bartered for anything else required. Whether you agree or not, metals are simply not the be all and end all of value. IMHO precious metals are most useful to preserve value through a period, not sustain you through it.

Sunshine
02-03-2016, 01:18 AM
The point is that in a basic survival situation gold or silver as a medium of exchange is useless. What has value is what is needed immediately. The commodities I mentioned were needed, were put to immediate use or were bartered for anything else required. Whether you agree or not, metals are simply not the be all and end all of value. IMHO precious metals are most useful to preserve value through a period, not sustain you through it.

Then why not just say the sky is blue ?,,,,,,,,,,,,,,it's the same thing :)

pitw
02-03-2016, 08:08 AM
PS, And the nice thing about all my preparations is that they cost nothing.

Then I would be scared of your preparedness. Just the land needed to be able to feed yourself on cost's, not to mention the price of materials required. The number one thing required by a person who plans on living through a shtf scenario is knowledge. Animal husbandry, plant knowledge, mechanical ability, medical, carpentry and a whole host of other needed trades. All of these cost something as we were not born with them which can be witnessed by just watching people. For example just take your average person off the street and have them go cut firewood.

Sunshine
02-03-2016, 08:34 AM
Then I would be scared of your preparedness. Just the land needed to be able to feed yourself on cost's, not to mention the price of materials required. The number one thing required by a person who plans on living through a shtf scenario is knowledge. Animal husbandry, plant knowledge, mechanical ability, medical, carpentry and a whole host of other needed trades. All of these cost something as we were not born with them which can be witnessed by just watching people. For example just take your average person off the street and have them go cut firewood.

Then maybe I'm not the average person, as along with my wife I have everything you have mentioned. We use all of the above regardless of any collapse.

TPK
02-03-2016, 02:03 PM
Well .. my take is that some will still see a value in gold, others .. not.
I would have no problem carrying water, ammo, food, etc. (survival necessities) in my backpack and I would protect these at all costs. I would NOT be carrying around 10 lbs of gold, silver, or diamonds. Absolutely useless to me, just added weight to carry in case I find someone still delusional enough to give me necessities like water, food, and ammo for it.

Sunshine
02-03-2016, 02:21 PM
Well .. my take is that some will still see a value in gold, others .. not.
I would have no problem carrying water, ammo, food, etc. (survival necessities) in my backpack and I would protect these at all costs. I would NOT be carrying around 10 lbs of gold, silver, or diamonds. Absolutely useless to me, just added weight to carry in case I find someone still delusional enough to give me necessities like water, food, and ammo for it.


What, you mean to say that you have managed to work out that gold is not useful in a survival situation ? Wow !;D

TheCenturion
02-03-2016, 02:49 PM
What, you mean to say that you have managed to work out that gold is not useful in a survival situation ? Wow !;D

Everybody knows it's bottlecaps (preferably Nuka Cola) that will become the new currency.

Seriously, though, who knows what will wind up having value. Mad Max 2 correctly pointed out that pig crap (not crap! Energy!) can be incredibly valuable.

Waterloomike
02-03-2016, 02:50 PM
Yeah, these are two different subjects on two different scenarios. And never the twain shall meet.

762shooter
02-03-2016, 03:56 PM
What, you mean to say that you have managed to work out that gold is not useful in a survival situation ? Wow !;D

You seem to be pretty good at making sarcastic, shallow comments that don't add anything to the discussion. Maybe you need to explain your views with bit more depth and logic.

TPK
02-03-2016, 03:59 PM
What, you mean to say that you have managed to work out that gold is not useful in a survival situation ? Wow !;D

Is that not what this thread is about? The question of whether gold, silver, diamonds, etc. (the things we think have value today), will be of any use or value after a SHTF scenario?

Waterloomike
02-03-2016, 04:21 PM
AFTER, the shtf, and a significant amount of the chaos is over, they will be.

TPK
02-03-2016, 04:36 PM
Maybe ... maybe not, this is the speculation. Right now gold is used primarily in what ..electronics and jewelry?, and with silver... I have no clue what's primary use is.

They will only have value again if they are of use. Some things like firearms and ammo will be of just as much use now as then and hence the speculation they would be a better investment.

Waterloomike
02-03-2016, 05:29 PM
Maybe ... maybe not, this is the speculation. Right now gold is used primarily in what ..electronics and jewelry?, and with silver... I have no clue what's primary use is.

They will only have value again if they are of use. Some things like firearms and ammo will be of just as much use now as then and hence the speculation they would be a better investment.

The largest amounts of gold and silver are sitting in vaults, usually bank vaults and central bank vaults.

I know that it's had value in the past, has value now (or banks would not be sitting on so much of it and looking for more), and it will continue to have value.

If you think it's of little or no value, I'm fine with that.

TPK
02-03-2016, 05:57 PM
I guess it all depends on what version of SHTF scenario you want to imagine.

A temporary (or even long term) loss of services would leave those vaults full of gold and current manufacturing processes in place waiting for the return of services and a resumption of the consumption of gold silver etc. , back to normal if you will. In this scenario, you're right, they still have value.

A pandemic knocking out most of the worlds population and those structures etc. would still be standing but next to no one left to care about the "value" of that gold or the re-starting of manufacturing processes, it's going to be survival mode period.

In a scenario like in the movie "The Road" for instance, what was considered wealth (gold, silver, diamonds, etc.) would have little to no appeal to the survivors. They would be going through houses and businesses looking for survival tools (firearms, ammunition, warm clothing, etc.), highly unlikely anyone would be filling their pockets with jewelry and the like ... but if you think they would still be of value, I'm fine with that.

kennymo
02-03-2016, 05:58 PM
I think a significant portion of the problem here (and in the other thread) is that the two sides are envisioning different scenarios for 'the shtf'.
One side seems to be looking at a complete societal collapse and is theorizing we'll be backpacking the countryside hunting, gathering and basically being worried only about surviving the day/month/year. In that case, yeah, shiny objects will lose much of their value for the immediate future, and you will indeed be better off with a gun, or some ammo, or some freeze dried food and TP.
The other side's 'shtf' scenario (and the more likely one to occur on more than a local scale IMO) is an economic collapse, electronic savings being withheld or confiscated by the banks, widespread unemployment, outrageous taxation, etc.... In that case, precious metals stand a good chance of leaving you with at least a portion of whatever wealth you may have accumulated, and could give you a better leg up in the black/grey market. It's also easier to cross an international border with a little gold/silver should things get that bad. The next government over isn't likely to let you walk in with a bunch of rifles strapped to your back, or a truckload of ammo.
So, two differing visions of the future disasterpiece. The question is more which one are you preparing for? May as well be a little of both.....

kennymo
02-03-2016, 05:59 PM
TPK, in the future, please restrain yourself from having the same thought as me until after I finish typing....:p

TPK
02-03-2016, 06:34 PM
lol - will try ...

I look at it like this .. my guns and ammo will be worth a lot in either the end of the world scenario or the economic collapse scenario while gold, silver, diamonds, etc. will only be of value in one of those scenarios .. making guns and ammo a better investment (jmo).... and plus it's my excuse to horde guns and ammo! lol

Sunshine
02-03-2016, 06:37 PM
lol - will try ...

I look at it like this .. my guns and ammo will be worth a lot in either the end of the world scenario or the economic collapse scenario while gold, silver, diamonds, etc. will only be of value in one of those scenarios .. making guns and ammo a better investment (jmo).... and plus it's my excuse to horde guns and ammo! lol


Guns and ammo are completely different from gold and silver.

Just thought I would mention it :)

PS, it slipped my mind for a moment........ The sky is blue ! LOL

mavrik9
02-03-2016, 06:44 PM
Guns and ammo are completely different from gold and silver.

Just thought I would mention it :)
Not necessarily, I would love to have guns and ammo alongside gold and silver to be prepared for either outcome of a shtf scenario. But let's be realistic, most of us will have to make a choice in the now. Financially for me, and probably most of us, guns, ammo and necessities for my family will take priority.

Sent from my SM-G870W using Tapatalk
Edit: I find ''value'' in both

Billythreefeathers
02-03-2016, 06:46 PM
Five guys have bunkers under their houses. Chicxulub Two: Electric Boogaloo happens.

Guy number one comes out of his bunker, and has a horde of preserved food.
Guy number two comes out of his bunker, and has a horde of preserved medicine.
Guy number three comes out of his bunker, and has a horde of hunting and trapping supplies.
Guy number four comes out of his bunker, and has a horde of building materials and tools.
Guy number five comes out of his bunker, and has a horde of gold coins.



Guy number six comes out of his bunker with a gun and lots of ammo,, gets food, medicine, hunting and trapping supplies, building material and the gold coins,,

Sunshine
02-03-2016, 06:59 PM
Not necessarily, I would love to have guns and ammo alongside gold and silver to be prepared for either outcome of a shtf scenario. But let's be realistic, most of us will have to make a choice in the now. Financially for me, and probably most of us, guns, ammo and necessities for my family will take priority.

Sent from my SM-G870W using Tapatalk
Edit: I find ''value'' in both

They have entirely different uses, because they are entirely different.

Sunshine
02-03-2016, 07:03 PM
Guy number six comes out of his bunker with a gun and lots of ammo,, gets food, medicine, hunting and trapping supplies, building material and the gold coins,,


I think you are talking about guy number seven, who meets someone who is a better shot and gets his brains blown out.

Waterloomike
02-03-2016, 07:17 PM
I guess it all depends on what version of SHTF scenario you want to imagine.

A temporary (or even long term) loss of services would leave those vaults full of gold and current manufacturing processes in place waiting for the return of services and a resumption of the consumption of gold silver etc. , back to normal if you will. In this scenario, you're right, they still have value.

A pandemic knocking out most of the worlds population and those structures etc. would still be standing but next to no one left to care about the "value" of that gold or the re-starting of manufacturing processes, it's going to be survival mode period.

In a scenario like in the movie "The Road" for instance, what was considered wealth (gold, silver, diamonds, etc.) would have little to no appeal to the survivors. They would be going through houses and businesses looking for survival tools (firearms, ammunition, warm clothing, etc.), highly unlikely anyone would be filling their pockets with jewelry and the like ... but if you think they would still be of value, I'm fine with that.

Things will change over time, nothing will stay just as it is for eternity. Eventually, things will improve to the point that markets will reappear.

Everything changes, but money will always talk and bullshit will just do what it does.

Like a good boy scout, be prepared.

But everyone must do what they are comfortable doing.

TheCenturion
02-04-2016, 06:59 AM
I think a significant portion of the problem here (and in the other thread) is that the two sides are envisioning different scenarios for 'the shtf'.
One side seems to be looking at a complete societal collapse and is theorizing we'll be backpacking the countryside hunting, gathering and basically being worried only about surviving the day/month/year. In that case, yeah, shiny objects will lose much of their value for the immediate future, and you will indeed be better off with a gun, or some ammo, or some freeze dried food and TP.
The other side's 'shtf' scenario (and the more likely one to occur on more than a local scale IMO) is an economic collapse, electronic savings being withheld or confiscated by the banks, widespread unemployment, outrageous taxation, etc.... In that case, precious metals stand a good chance of leaving you with at least a portion of whatever wealth you may have accumulated, and could give you a better leg up in the black/grey market. It's also easier to cross an international border with a little gold/silver should things get that bad. The next government over isn't likely to let you walk in with a bunch of rifles strapped to your back, or a truckload of ammo.
So, two differing visions of the future disasterpiece. The question is more which one are you preparing for? May as well be a little of both.....

Yup. This is why I specified things like 'Chicxhulub 2'.

But even in the short term, in a 'soft' fall, I don't think gold/silver will be all that useful. Gold/silver is like any other currency; it works because everybody has agreed that it works. When you're sitting on your farm, shotgun in hand, when some city boy rolls up and says 'Hey, pops, what are you selling wheat, barley and lentils for?' is he going to say 'shiney rocks' or is he going to say 'fuel, tractor parts, ammo, labour, bolts of cloth the missus can make into new clothes.'

I predict, 'after the fall,' straight barter for long enough that it would matter to anybody alive here and now. But that's just me.

TPK
02-04-2016, 12:45 PM
Guns and ammo are completely different from gold and silver.

Just thought I would mention it :)

PS, it slipped my mind for a moment........ The sky is blue ! LOL

You seem surprised at the comparison .. maybe you should check the title of the thread you're posting in?

More to consider ... there are very few (if any) controls on who can buy gold (or other similarly valuable metals/gems etc.). So prepping and using these as security can be done by anyone. Now consider what is involved with getting a firearms license and purchasing ammo .. they are not nearly as available and more tightly controlled. So can one draw a conclusion that the value of firearms and ammunition is more stable due to the smaller "captive audience" ... for lack of a better term, and tighter controls?

On one side we see the value of 12.6 firearms plummet as not many have the endorsement to purchase them, then we see crazy increases in the price for Colt Pythons thanks to "Rick Grimes" and the Walking Dead. Hard to figure these "oddities" into the equation of "holding value", so perhaps it's more of a fickle market than I think ....

I was lucky enough to pick up a Colt Python, nothing fancy, shot lots (and continue to shoot lots), holster wear, etc. not a "collectors" piece by any means, it's "a shooter" and used accordingly yet it's value has tripled from what I purchased it for. I did not buy this piece as an investment yet it certainly has increased in value.

If we look in the EE, we can see some older firearms selling for more than newer ones. Usually "quality" is the factor at play here as some older firearms were simply made better back in the day than their newer versions.

If I look in my safes, I don't see more than a couple - three firearms that I would get less than what I paid for them if I sold them today. These are common firearms, Browning A-Bolt, Buckmark pistols, etc. firearms that are low cost with a high volume of them having been manufactured. Not an investment. On a whole though ... most of my firearms are worth more today than when I purchased them.

With ammo, it's even better!! I have not seen the cost of the ammo I shoot drop in price over the years. Boxes and boxes of Target .22 with a faded price tag of $2.99. If you re-load you are even in better shape as you ride out the fluctuations of price and availability (often tied together ...) and continue to make quality ammo and a fraction of purchase price. Granted you are not allowed to sell your home rolled ammo but your "investment" in equipment and components seems to be a fairly good investment.

Sunshine
02-04-2016, 01:03 PM
You seem surprised at the comparison .. maybe you should check the title of the thread you're posting in?
The sky will always be blue regardless of a title.:)

TDC
02-21-2016, 01:44 AM
Yup. This is why I specified things like 'Chicxhulub 2'.

But even in the short term, in a 'soft' fall, I don't think gold/silver will be all that useful. Gold/silver is like any other currency; it works because everybody has agreed that it works. When you're sitting on your farm, shotgun in hand, when some city boy rolls up and says 'Hey, pops, what are you selling wheat, barley and lentils for?' is he going to say 'shiney rocks' or is he going to say 'fuel, tractor parts, ammo, labour, bolts of cloth the missus can make into new clothes.'

I predict, 'after the fall,' straight barter for long enough that it would matter to anybody alive here and now. But that's just me.

What many are missing here is that Gold and Silver will have value OUTSIDE of the nation that has collapsed. Now if the entire planet suffers catastrophic financial/societal collapse then your Gold and Silver will have less value than bullets and beans, but only until markets re appear which is inevitable.

A full on societal collapse does not happen overnight. When society begins to slip and inflation quickly devalues the local currency, Gold and Silver will continue to hold their values on the GLOBAL market, as everyone on the planet is aware of the value of Gold and Silver as both are quite rare and are tangible items of value. Paper(or plastic) money is a fiat currency, it's fake and has no value outside of that which we believe it has. The value of the currency and the demand for goods play critical roles in determining what said goods cost.

Greece is a great example, the government there was limiting ATM withdrawals/purchases to 60 Euros a day about a year ago in an effort to stop hyperinflation. That's not a lot of money to pay bills, buy food and any other necessities for life. With such a limited withdrawal how many people do you think would be shopping for anything other than necessities? So if no one is buying clothes and electronics etc, then I guess as a business owner I don't need to employ people, or perhaps reduce my hours of operation which reduces your income as an employee. If you had/have savings you're ok with less work.... Oh wait, no you're not, you've been limited to 60 Euros a day. So much for that nice nest egg for bad times you've saved up but can't access.

Gold and Silver allows the ability to barter or otherwise deal in a known commodity that is immune to the inflation of a local currency. Gold and Silver are GLOBAL money and retain value regardless of socioeconomic climates.

On a less EOTW scenario, Gold and Silver are good ways to save money for retirement without losing value and without paying tax. It's anonymous, untraceable and accepted globally. Will your Gold and Silver investments(physical not paper investments) offer huge returns? No, but they won't lose a whole lot either. If you're savvy and watch the price trends you can liquidate on a high trend and make a few dollars; if that's what you're converting it to.

TDC

TheCenturion
02-21-2016, 07:26 AM
What many are missing here is that Gold and Silver will have value OUTSIDE of the nation that has collapsed. Now if the entire planet suffers catastrophic financial/societal collapse then your Gold and Silver will have less value than bullets and beans, but only until markets re appear which is inevitable.

A full on societal collapse does not happen overnight. When society begins to slip and inflation quickly devalues the local currency, Gold and Silver will continue to hold their values on the GLOBAL market, as everyone on the planet is aware of the value of Gold and Silver as both are quite rare and are tangible items of value. Paper(or plastic) money is a fiat currency, it's fake and has no value outside of that which we believe it has. The value of the currency and the demand for goods play critical roles in determining what said goods cost.

Greece is a great example, the government there was limiting ATM withdrawals/purchases to 60 Euros a day about a year ago in an effort to stop hyperinflation. That's not a lot of money to pay bills, buy food and any other necessities for life. With such a limited withdrawal how many people do you think would be shopping for anything other than necessities? So if no one is buying clothes and electronics etc, then I guess as a business owner I don't need to employ people, or perhaps reduce my hours of operation which reduces your income as an employee. If you had/have savings you're ok with less work.... Oh wait, no you're not, you've been limited to 60 Euros a day. So much for that nice nest egg for bad times you've saved up but can't access.

Gold and Silver allows the ability to barter or otherwise deal in a known commodity that is immune to the inflation of a local currency. Gold and Silver are GLOBAL money and retain value regardless of socioeconomic climates.

On a less EOTW scenario, Gold and Silver are good ways to save money for retirement without losing value and without paying tax. It's anonymous, untraceable and accepted globally. Will your Gold and Silver investments(physical not paper investments) offer huge returns? No, but they won't lose a whole lot either. If you're savvy and watch the price trends you can liquidate on a high trend and make a few dollars; if that's what you're converting it to.

TDC

Agreed. If the collapse is local, gold and silver will be somewhat more valuable than, as I say, 'Chicxhulub 2,' if you can get out of the locality.

Locally, though, it's still going to be fairly useless unless there's some way to establish broadly agreed upon exchange rates. You roll into town with your gold nuggets, freshly panned from the rivers of California, you don't roll into a store and start paying with them, unless a) they happen to accept them, b) you trust them to give you fair exchange, c) you happen to know the exchange rate of gold, which will fluctuate, and d) possibly even they are licensed and can legally operate as assayers. At which point, out come the scales and chemistry set to determine purity and weight.

Otherwise, you take them to said assayer and get them converted into currency.

Sunshine
02-21-2016, 08:59 AM
Agreed. If the collapse is local, gold and silver will be somewhat more valuable than, as I say, 'Chicxhulub 2,' if you can get out of the locality.

Locally, though, it's still going to be fairly useless unless there's some way to establish broadly agreed upon exchange rates. You roll into town with your gold nuggets, freshly panned from the rivers of California, you don't roll into a store and start paying with them, unless a) they happen to accept them, b) you trust them to give you fair exchange, c) you happen to know the exchange rate of gold, which will fluctuate, and d) possibly even they are licensed and can legally operate as assayers. At which point, out come the scales and chemistry set to determine purity and weight.

Otherwise, you take them to said assayer and get them converted into currency.

Stick with your banknotes or credit / bank card, ( cashless society is already in the pipeline ) I'm sure you will be just fine. :)

TheCenturion
02-22-2016, 07:19 AM
Stick with your banknotes or credit / bank card, ( cashless society is already in the pipeline ) I'm sure you will be just fine. :)

What does this even mean? Bank notes and credit cards are going to be just as useless if society collapses.

I just don't agree that gold and silver have any sort of 'intrinsic' value that everybody will conveniently accept and honour after some sort of collapse. It's not how it worked historically; it's probably not how it's going to work again.

Waterloomike
02-22-2016, 07:34 AM
What does this even mean? Bank notes and credit cards are going to be just as useless if society collapses.

I just don't agree that gold and silver have any sort of 'intrinsic' value that everybody will conveniently accept and honour after some sort of collapse. It's not how it worked historically; it's probably not how it's going to work again.

Got any proof for precious metals not historically having any value or that it won't in the future?

Sunshine
02-22-2016, 08:42 AM
What does this even mean? Bank notes and credit cards are going to be just as useless if society collapses.

I just don't agree that gold and silver have any sort of 'intrinsic' value that everybody will conveniently accept and honour after some sort of collapse. It's not how it worked historically; it's probably not how it's going to work again.

Then don't preserve your excess wealth at all, I'm sure you will be just fine when the economy recovers. :)

TheCenturion
02-22-2016, 09:48 AM
Got any proof for precious metals not historically having any value or that it won't in the future?

Sure. How about the New World nations being stupefied that those strangers from across the ocean were so worked up about the shiny yellow metal that was too soft to make good tools, but were OK as fishhooks and baubles? Or how Ancient Egypt prized imported iron far above relatively abundant local gold? Remember when royalty brought out the gold and platinum service ware for guests, but kept the aluminum service ware for themselves, because aluminum was far more rare, difficult to obtain, and valuable?

Gold is a great material to make coinage out of, due to it's structural properties, but nobody can explain to me why a disc of gold that says '$20' is intrinsically worth more than a disc of iron, or copper, or tin, or aluminum, or plastic, that says '$20'. In other words, while gold makes good coins, the coins don't have value just because they're made out of gold. Golden currency is still currency, backed by the local government. You don't make coins out of iron; iron rusts. You don't make coins out of aluminum; too fragile. Platinum? Too hard to smelt.

Gold has historic value, not intrinsic value. Yes, that historic value might just give it the inertia to become a currency again, but I still think that given the option to buy 200 dollars of gold to squirrel away against the end of the world versus 200 dollars of useful goods and items, you'd be better served doing the latter.

Just like any other material, gold is valuable because everybody has decided that it's valuable. Should the world descend into chaos and anarchy, I don't think the vast majority of people will continue to put collective agreement into the value of gold, versus the value of more immediately useful goods.

Waterloomike
02-22-2016, 10:04 AM
Sure. How about the New World nations being stupefied that those strangers from across the ocean were so worked up about the shiny yellow metal that was too soft to make good tools, but were OK as fishhooks and baubles? Or how Ancient Egypt prized imported iron far above relatively abundant local gold? Remember when royalty brought out the gold and platinum service ware for guests, but kept the aluminum service ware for themselves, because aluminum was far more rare, difficult to obtain, and valuable?

Gold is a great material to make coinage out of, due to it's structural properties, but nobody can explain to me why a disc of gold that says '$20' is intrinsically worth more than a disc of iron, or copper, or tin, or aluminum, or plastic, that says '$20'. In other words, while gold makes good coins, the coins don't have value just because they're made out of gold. Golden currency is still currency, backed by the local government. You don't make coins out of iron; iron rusts. You don't make coins out of aluminum; too fragile. Platinum? Too hard to smelt.

Gold has historic value, not intrinsic value. Yes, that historic value might just give it the inertia to become a currency again, but I still think that given the option to buy 200 dollars of gold to squirrel away against the end of the world versus 200 dollars of useful goods and items, you'd be better served doing the latter.

Just like any other material, gold is valuable because everybody has decided that it's valuable. Should the world descend into chaos and anarchy, I don't think the vast majority of people will continue to put collective agreement into the value of gold, versus the value of more immediately useful goods.

So you're comparing a stone age people versus seafaring nations that conquered and settled the world to make a case that gold has no value.

apples to rocks.

You're not even trying to convince me, you're trying to convince yourself.

If you were convinced, you would have already dropped out of this.

TheCenturion
02-22-2016, 10:50 AM
So you're comparing a stone age people versus seafaring nations that conquered and settled the world to make a case that gold has no value.
What value did gold have to a seafaring nation that the stone age people weren't able to understand? It's not like Columbus was looking to expand their semiconductor industry to the new world.




You're not even trying to convince me, you're trying to convince yourself.

If you were convinced, you would have already dropped out of this.
No, I'm trying to understand the points of view of others, and I don't claim to have all the answers. And you haven't actually been able to explain to me the intrinsic value of gold.

Waterloomike
02-22-2016, 11:16 AM
What value did gold have to a seafaring nation that the stone age people weren't able to understand? It's not like Columbus was looking to expand their semiconductor industry to the new world.

Strange you would say that because your response was


How about the New World nations being stupefied that those strangers from across the ocean were so worked up about the shiny yellow metal that was too soft to make good tools, but were OK as fishhooks and baubles?

No, Columbus, his supporters and cohorts were looking for new riches to plunder and new territory to claim. They found it.



No, I'm trying to understand the points of view of others, and I don't claim to have all the answers. And you haven't actually been able to explain to me the intrinsic value of gold.

Well I have and so has sunshine, but once more: as a historically accepted medium of exchange that can be used forever.

Can you eat it? no. can you make tools? some maybe. You mentioned yourself about semiconductors. There are some medical uses.

There's really very little else to add. Other than history repeats. I'm personally going to take that to the bank.

I will also say this once more, if you're sure it has no value, then why worry?

Sunshine
02-22-2016, 12:14 PM
TheCenturion

If gold has no intrinsic value then why is it so valuable and sought after ?

Tok-man
02-22-2016, 01:15 PM
A friend of mine sold 12 pairs of well used running shoes on kijiji for some decent coin.

value is determined by if it is wanted by someone else, and what they are willing to pay for it.

Gold and silver are no different, if someone wants it, it will have value; regardless of its usefulness.

Sunshine
02-22-2016, 01:19 PM
A friend of mine sold 12 pairs of well used running shoes on kijiji for some decent coin.

value is determined by if it is wanted by someone else, and what they are willing to pay for it.

Gold and silver are no different, if someone wants it, it will have value; regardless of its usefulness.

Gold is completely different . I'm not aware of any war that has been fought over running shoes. :)

awndray
02-22-2016, 01:44 PM
Some wars were fought over more trivial things than shoes.

Waterloomike
02-22-2016, 02:29 PM
Some wars were fought over more trivial things than shoes.

As individuals, we, you and I, can't start wars. Only governments can do that.

So that's out of our hands.

The best we can do is plan for an uncertain future.

awndray
02-22-2016, 02:44 PM
What are trying to say? Check the history books. Wars have been fought for lesser reasons than oil, gold or ideology.

Waterloomike
02-22-2016, 02:47 PM
What are trying to say? Check the history books. Wars have been fought for lesser reasons than oil, gold or ideology.

I'm not arguing with what you said.

Sunshine
02-22-2016, 02:50 PM
What are trying to say? Check the history books. Wars have been fought for lesser reasons than oil, gold or ideology.

What lesser reasons are you talking about ?

Waterloomike
02-22-2016, 03:10 PM
Troy?

BruceW
02-22-2016, 03:25 PM
I think gold/silver will always have good trade value simply because they're accepted as such worldwide and always have been. There will always be something easily transported that can be used to exchange for goods. Has to be; trading labor is only worth so much and above that a recognized means of trade is necessary. Basically, people trust it has value and people trust it can be easily traded for something else.


My guess why gold/silver are the accepted medium; easily malleable, shiny jewelry, not common and not easy to come by?

Waterloomike
02-22-2016, 03:28 PM
Yeah, they can't print it out of thin air.

TDC
02-22-2016, 05:13 PM
Agreed. If the collapse is local, gold and silver will be somewhat more valuable than, as I say, 'Chicxhulub 2,' if you can get out of the locality.

Locally, though, it's still going to be fairly useless unless there's some way to establish broadly agreed upon exchange rates. You roll into town with your gold nuggets, freshly panned from the rivers of California, you don't roll into a store and start paying with them, unless a) they happen to accept them, b) you trust them to give you fair exchange, c) you happen to know the exchange rate of gold, which will fluctuate, and d) possibly even they are licensed and can legally operate as assayers. At which point, out come the scales and chemistry set to determine purity and weight.

Otherwise, you take them to said assayer and get them converted into currency.

The bold section is a moot point if we are trading and bartering goods and precious metals.


What does this even mean? Bank notes and credit cards are going to be just as useless if society collapses.

I just don't agree that gold and silver have any sort of 'intrinsic' value that everybody will conveniently accept and honour after some sort of collapse. It's not how it worked historically; it's probably not how it's going to work again.

It's not about convenience, it's a reality. Gold and Silver are accepted commodities the globe over. Don't for a second think that a societal collapse means zero government or zero outside influence. Even the poorest nations in Africa are governed by someone and they are well aware of the value of Gold and Silver. Like I said above, the collapse will not happen overnight. We will not be living out of tents and cooking over open flame in the blink of an eye. Kosovo in the early nineties was not a third world nation, it was a struggling first world nation. Do you think Gold and Silver would allow you some leverage to barter with outsiders like peacekeepers or warlords, or would you barter with beans and bandaids??

Banks and governments stockpile Gold and Silver, they do not stockpile fiat currencies or food, or clothing, or any other item.

Here's a very valuable bank note from Zimbabwe. A one Trillion dollar note, worth approximately $0.40 USD. That equates to about 0.0003 oz of gold at today's price.
http://www.wsj.com/video/zimbabwes-100-trillion-dollar-note-gains-in-value/E32B371E-2016-4BAC-9FDA-5CBE5DB7FE7C.html

If you bought an oz of Gold in 1980 you would have paid about $600 CDN. That same oz in 2012 was worth $1600 CDN. If you had kept $600 under the mattress, it would still be worth $600. Don't forget inflation does erode the value of any currency and thusly erodes some of the value of Gold. However, Gold and Silver have held their value much much better than any currency ever has, and it's value is accepted everywhere.

TDC

Waterloomike
02-22-2016, 05:41 PM
If you had kept $600 under the mattress, it would still be worth $600

That's a great point. One to keep in mind. The only exception, and you cover that, is that $600 in 1980 was worth more in purchasing power, than it is in 2016.

TDC
02-22-2016, 07:01 PM
That's a great point. One to keep in mind. The only exception, and you cover that, is that $600 in 1980 was worth more in purchasing power, than it is in 2016.

Right. But, if you had poked $600 1980 dollars into a savings account, would it have tripled in value by 2012? I doubt it. Gold and Silver won't generally make you a ton of interest, but they are very resistant to inflation and hold their own. ;)

TDC

Waterloomike
02-22-2016, 07:14 PM
Right. But, if you had poked $600 1980 dollars into a savings account, would it have tripled in value by 2012? I doubt it. Gold and Silver won't generally make you a ton of interest, but they are very resistant to inflation and hold their own. ;)

TDC

For damn sure. You actually did cover that in your first post, but the 'stick it in the mattress' point needed to be said again.

So thanks for that post.

TheCenturion
02-23-2016, 10:56 AM
TheCenturion

If gold has no intrinsic value then why is it so valuable and sought after ?

Gold is useful as a metal to make currency, for the reasons I put above. But like any other good, it's only worth what somebody is willing to give you for it. And to reiterate, when you roll up to Farmer Johnston's armed enclave, looking to trade for some of his wheat, is he going to want shiny discs, or is he going to want something of immediate practical value?

Nothing has 'intrinsic' value; think of the story of a guy in a bunker with ten thousand cans of soup, and no can opener. A freshly cleaned deer carcass is useless to you if you have no way to cook it. A farm full of pigs is useless if you can't maintain them over the winter. A field of perfect soil is useless if you have not the seed, tools, or knowledge to plant, maintain, harvest, prepare, and preserve. A pile of freshly shorn wool is useless to me, as I have no idea how to card, turn it into thread, etc etc.

Gold is valuable because people agree that it's valuable. The question is, will enough people think it's valuable after the fall? Or are there other things that are more likely to have universal value?

TheCenturion
02-23-2016, 10:59 AM
No, Columbus, his supporters and cohorts were looking for new riches to plunder and new territory to claim. They found it.
Yes, they wanted it. The people who had it, had no use for it. It wasn't valuable to them, because 'intrinsic value' is a fiction.





Well I have and so has sunshine, but once more: as a historically accepted medium of exchange that can be used forever.

Can you eat it? no. can you make tools? some maybe. You mentioned yourself about semiconductors. There are some medical uses.

There's really very little else to add. Other than history repeats. I'm personally going to take that to the bank.

I will also say this once more, if you're sure it has no value, then why worry?
I'm not worried. I'm trying to see other people's points of view, on the theory that I'm not omniscient. And it's funny, in a stock-phrase sort of way, that you're taking your faith in non-bank wealth..to the bank.

Waterloomike
02-23-2016, 11:21 AM
Yes, they wanted it. The people who had it, had no use for it. It wasn't valuable to them, because 'intrinsic value' is a fiction.




I'm not worried. I'm trying to see other people's points of view, on the theory that I'm not omniscient. And it's funny, in a stock-phrase sort of way, that you're taking your faith in non-bank wealth..to the bank.

not faith. faith is the absence of reason. i have confidence, not faith.

TheCenturion
02-23-2016, 12:56 PM
not faith. faith is the absence of reason. i have confidence, not faith.

That's a valid distinction. It's still a funny linguistic nuance.

Waterloomike
02-23-2016, 02:27 PM
That's a valid distinction. It's still a funny linguistic nuance.

that i'll count on history to repeat..........again?

TheCenturion
02-23-2016, 03:37 PM
that i'll count on history to repeat..........again?

....I have faith that it will......

Seriously, though, lets agree to meet somewhere, 30 years after The Fall, and compare notes as to what actually wound up happening. We shall find neutral ground, where our respective warbands, clad in roughly patched sports padding, gratuitous metal spikes, Mohawk hairdos and sledgehammers wrapped in barbed wire, can glare balefully at each other, while we discuss the before times, and how things turned out. They will mutter amoungst each other in their rough pidgin, and view us as wizards, as we discuss technology and concepts lost to the mists of time. To celebrate our meeting, there will be a feast, with a freshly killed mutant near-deer, or perhaps some feral pig, who escaped from the government lab where they were uplifted to sentience. There will be tests of strength and manhood, and we will dazzle them by cobbling together an old film projector, a sheet, a diesel generator and some vintage 1980s film reels. One of them will become drunk on moonshine, and one of us will have to pull one of our far-killer artifacts from the before time, and waste a precious bullet to shoot him dead, thus cowing the rest back into fearful submission. Perhaps we will discuss attempting to set up some regular trade routes. We'll dicker about who guards what, how often they should run, who's on the hook for shipments taken by bandits. Finally, we'll move to what to trade in. You'll offer to pay in gold, I'll say I sure could use some to restart my semiconductor factory, we'll have a hearty laugh. The party will continue far into the morning. Finally, as the sky-glow through the ash-filled atmosphere slowly brightens, we'll clasp forearms, and part ways. Somebody will mention that they sure do miss their Timmy's.

Ten years later, you'll hear stories, slowly passing from nomad to settlement, from settlement to trader, from trader to nomad, inexorably making it's way across the blighted and blasted lands, that I've died, in a horrible accident, caught up in the gears of an incredibly large Babbage engine, or perhaps killed when my attempts to create a Zeppelin failed spectacularly. You'll shed a tear, perhaps pour out some maple syrup in memoriam.

TDC
02-23-2016, 06:24 PM
Gold is useful as a metal to make currency, for the reasons I put above. But like any other good, it's only worth what somebody is willing to give you for it. And to reiterate, when you roll up to Farmer Johnston's armed enclave, looking to trade for some of his wheat, is he going to want shiny discs, or is he going to want something of immediate practical value?

Nothing has 'intrinsic' value; think of the story of a guy in a bunker with ten thousand cans of soup, and no can opener. A freshly cleaned deer carcass is useless to you if you have no way to cook it. A farm full of pigs is useless if you can't maintain them over the winter. A field of perfect soil is useless if you have not the seed, tools, or knowledge to plant, maintain, harvest, prepare, and preserve. A pile of freshly shorn wool is useless to me, as I have no idea how to card, turn it into thread, etc etc.

Gold is valuable because people agree that it's valuable. The question is, will enough people think it's valuable after the fall? Or are there other things that are more likely to have universal value?

History indicates that yes, Gold and Silver will always hold their value. Obviously other resources like you mention will have or be of more value at certain times and to specific people. Again, what people are missing here is that a collapse is very unlikely to be complete and global. Society will not revert to caveman days, we will simply struggle to adapt to the limited resources and limited structure of society. The value of comfort items, food, clothing, shelter, etc will still be there. After society has stabilized these items will lose value and the desire to advance or "re modernize" will drive society, at which point a currency of some sort will be instilled. A Gold backed currency gives it real value, hence the desire to stockpile Gold.

Like others mentioned above, stockpiling Gold before adequate levels of food, clothing, shelter, defence, and medical supplies is a foolish venture as Gold is a one trick pony that can't be eaten, worn, or used to keep the elements off. Gold is however a stable commodity that requires no rotation or upkeep.

TDC

Waterloomike
02-23-2016, 08:01 PM
....I have faith that it will......

Seriously, though, lets agree to meet somewhere, 30 years after The Fall, and compare notes as to what actually wound up happening. We shall find neutral ground, where our respective warbands, clad in roughly patched sports padding, gratuitous metal spikes, Mohawk hairdos and sledgehammers wrapped in barbed wire, can glare balefully at each other, while we discuss the before times, and how things turned out. They will mutter amoungst each other in their rough pidgin, and view us as wizards, as we discuss technology and concepts lost to the mists of time. To celebrate our meeting, there will be a feast, with a freshly killed mutant near-deer, or perhaps some feral pig, who escaped from the government lab where they were uplifted to sentience. There will be tests of strength and manhood, and we will dazzle them by cobbling together an old film projector, a sheet, a diesel generator and some vintage 1980s film reels. One of them will become drunk on moonshine, and one of us will have to pull one of our far-killer artifacts from the before time, and waste a precious bullet to shoot him dead, thus cowing the rest back into fearful submission. Perhaps we will discuss attempting to set up some regular trade routes. We'll dicker about who guards what, how often they should run, who's on the hook for shipments taken by bandits. Finally, we'll move to what to trade in. You'll offer to pay in gold, I'll say I sure could use some to restart my semiconductor factory, we'll have a hearty laugh. The party will continue far into the morning. Finally, as the sky-glow through the ash-filled atmosphere slowly brightens, we'll clasp forearms, and part ways. Somebody will mention that they sure do miss their Timmy's.

Ten years later, you'll hear stories, slowly passing from nomad to settlement, from settlement to trader, from trader to nomad, inexorably making it's way across the blighted and blasted lands, that I've died, in a horrible accident, caught up in the gears of an incredibly large Babbage engine, or perhaps killed when my attempts to create a Zeppelin failed spectacularly. You'll shed a tear, perhaps pour out some maple syrup in memoriam.

ok, Max.

TheCenturion
02-24-2016, 08:37 AM
History indicates that yes, Gold and Silver will always hold their value.
http://www.macrotrends.net/1333/historical-gold-prices-100-year-chart
$200 to $2000 in sixty years, adjusted for inflation, then down to ~390 around 25 years later, doesn't seem like 'holding it's value' to me.

Waterloomike
02-24-2016, 08:42 AM
http://www.macrotrends.net/1333/historical-gold-prices-100-year-chart
$200 to $2000 in sixty years, adjusted for inflation, then down to ~390 around 25 years later, doesn't seem like 'holding it's value' to me.

Because you're looking a fiat money numbers, not what it will actually buy.

TheCenturion
02-24-2016, 09:31 AM
How is 'gold' not a fiat? What is one ounce of gold worth, if not set amount of dollars?

Seriously. What is the 'intrinsic value' of one ounce of gold?

And the US went off of the gold standard in 1939. So what does gold swinging from $230 to $620 between 1915 and 1935 have to do with 'fiat currency?'

Waterloomike
02-24-2016, 09:46 AM
How is 'gold' not a fiat? What is one ounce of gold worth, if not set amount of dollars?

Seriously. What is the 'intrinsic value' of one ounce of gold?

Look up the definition of fiat.

Can you just print more gold out of thin air?

Is printing paper currency new wealth? Or is it something else?

awndray
02-24-2016, 09:54 AM
If people value something, it has value; if people do not value something, it does not have value; and there is no intrinsic about it. -- RT. HON. J. ENOCH POWELL, M.P.

https://fee.org/articles/the-fallacy-of-intrinsic-value/
http://www.investopedia.com/articles/investing/071114/why-gold-has-always-had-value.asp

TheCenturion
02-24-2016, 12:00 PM
Look up the definition of fiat.

Can you just print more gold out of thin air?

Is printing paper currency new wealth? Or is it something else?

No, you can't just print more gold out of thin air. Although, with upcoming chemical engineering, you'll be able to. After all, right now you can quite handily synthesize water from hydrogen and oxygen....and vice versa...

But who cares that you can't print more gold? You sure as hell *can* create wealth out of thin air.

Take one acre of land. What's it worth? Is it worth more, or less, once it's been broken into farm land? Is it worth more, or less, once it's been irrigated? Is it worth more, or less, if it's run by a poor farmer? Is it worth more, or less, if it's full of crops that don't happen to get affected by a blight that year? Is it worth more, or less, if somebody invents new mechanical farming tools that quadruple it's output? Is it worth more, or less, if there's a bumper crop? Is it worth more, or less, if it happens to be sitting on a deposit of a natural resource that yesterday was utterly useless, but today, scientists have discovered a use for, and in ten years, is commercially valuable, and in fifty, society cannot run without?

Take a ton of grain. What's it worth to a grain farmer? What's it worth to a bakery? What's it worth during a year of record crops? What's it worth during a drought? What's it worth to a rancher?

Take a litre of pure drinking water. What's it worth to the man who lives on a freshwater lake? What's it worth to the man in a desert?

Gold has no intrinsic value. No physical thing has intrinsic value. There are gold mines, right now, that have been mothballed by their owners, because *it's not worth it to run them.* Because if they dig up more gold, and put it on the market, *the value of gold falls.*

If things had 'intrinsic value,' if you couldn't 'create wealth out of thin air,' then every single solitary manufactured product would be cost of materials to buy. Period. Two cups of flour, a cup of sugar, some apples, some eggs, and some heat can turn into an apple pie. But you can bake a good pie, you can sell the pie for more than the materials cost you. If you *can't* bake a good pie, you've destroyed the value of the ingredients, and you can't sell the pie for even how much you bought the ingredients for.

A dead deer is valueless to you if you don't know how to clean, dress, butcher, cook, and preserve it's meat. A perfectly fertile field is useless if you don't know how to farm it. A pound more of harvest than your farm needs to sustain itself for a year or two is worthless. Gold will be worthless, *unless somebody wants it.* Gold was used to mint currency. The currency was baked with real property. Eventually, people decided that it was the gold itself that was valuable. It isn't.

What currency is supposed to be, is a measure of wealth. It's a problem when you print more currency without happening to have more wealth. But it's *also* a problem when you have more wealth, but can't adjust your economy to reflect it. People are more productive. Industry is more productive. You can get more value out of a ton of resources now than you could a hundred years ago, let alone a thousand years ago.

Waterloomike
02-24-2016, 12:14 PM
No, you can't just print more gold out of thin air. Although, with upcoming chemical engineering, you'll be able to. After all, right now you can quite handily synthesize water from hydrogen and oxygen....and vice versa...

But who cares that you can't print more gold? You sure as hell *can* create wealth out of thin air.

Take one acre of land. What's it worth? Is it worth more, or less, once it's been broken into farm land? Is it worth more, or less, once it's been irrigated? Is it worth more, or less, if it's run by a poor farmer? Is it worth more, or less, if it's full of crops that don't happen to get affected by a blight that year? Is it worth more, or less, if somebody invents new mechanical farming tools that quadruple it's output? Is it worth more, or less, if there's a bumper crop? Is it worth more, or less, if it happens to be sitting on a deposit of a natural resource that yesterday was utterly useless, but today, scientists have discovered a use for, and in ten years, is commercially valuable, and in fifty, society cannot run without?

Take a ton of grain. What's it worth to a grain farmer? What's it worth to a bakery? What's it worth during a year of record crops? What's it worth during a drought? What's it worth to a rancher?

Take a litre of pure drinking water. What's it worth to the man who lives on a freshwater lake? What's it worth to the man in a desert?

Gold has no intrinsic value. No physical thing has intrinsic value. There are gold mines, right now, that have been mothballed by their owners, because *it's not worth it to run them.* Because if they dig up more gold, and put it on the market, *the value of gold falls.*

If things had 'intrinsic value,' if you couldn't 'create wealth out of thin air,' then every single solitary manufactured product would be cost of materials to buy. Period. Two cups of flour, a cup of sugar, some apples, some eggs, and some heat can turn into an apple pie. But you can bake a good pie, you can sell the pie for more than the materials cost you. If you *can't* bake a good pie, you've destroyed the value of the ingredients, and you can't sell the pie for even how much you bought the ingredients for.

A dead deer is valueless to you if you don't know how to clean, dress, butcher, cook, and preserve it's meat. A perfectly fertile field is useless if you don't know how to farm it. A pound more of harvest than your farm needs to sustain itself for a year or two is worthless. Gold will be worthless, *unless somebody wants it.* Gold was used to mint currency. The currency was baked with real property. Eventually, people decided that it was the gold itself that was valuable. It isn't.

What currency is supposed to be, is a measure of wealth. It's a problem when you print more currency without happening to have more wealth. But it's *also* a problem when you have more wealth, but can't adjust your economy to reflect it. People are more productive. Industry is more productive. You can get more value out of a ton of resources now than you could a hundred years ago, let alone a thousand years ago.

i don't believe you will be able to create gold.

you keep talking about things that would have value, but somehow, you deny gold's ancient historical relevance.

suit yourself, i have nothing more to say.

TPK
02-24-2016, 12:53 PM
If I had kept track of each gun I have bought (when it was purchased and how much I paid), and done the same with my bulk ammunition purchases, then I could look at what the value is today and see where I would have been (financially speaking) if that money had been put into gold or silver investments instead.

But I haven't kept that close of track of my firearms and ammunition purchases.. so it's a guess for me at this point but I "believe" I'm further ahead with value of my firearms and ammo than if I had invested that amount in gold and silver.

Guns and ammo seem (to me) to be a lot more level (or less volatile I guess) of an investment. Slow and steady wins the race, they always seem to be going up and very very seldom down.

Just to mention again a thought I brought up many posts ago, that is the purchase of guns and ammo is restricted more than the sale of gold and silver, making guns and ammo a smaller (niche if you will) market and as a result I surmise this adds a little more value to them (guns and ammo) as not everyone can buy sell and trade them as they can with gold and silver.

Another thought, buying and selling firearms can yield a better profit than buying and selling gold or silver as gold and silver have an agreed upon market value throughout the world. What someone is willing to sell a firearm for or purchase a firearm for is no where near as cut and dry with the price as it is with gold and silver. You can't say this troy ounce of gold is worth more than that one because it's been looked after better, there weren't as many made at that time, etc. etc. Way more variance in what something is worth vs what someone is willing to pay for it when it comes to guns and ammo vs gold and silver. I believe properly exploited, these things make guns and ammo more profitable.

There is of course the one aspect of gold and silver where these things also come into play and that would be treasure !! A gold/silver piece with historical value will be worth more than just the weight of the gold/silver, but for the most part, one ounce of gold is worth no more or less than someone else's ounce of gold.

pitw
02-24-2016, 02:01 PM
There are many things that will give a better dollar return than PM's. If all we want to think about is dollar terms. I've always stated that knowledge is the first thing to acquire and then act on that. To me is was land, food, shelter and a community that cares. After learning how to live with nothing and acquiring some material goods it came time to decide what wealth I wanted to have and how best to protect it. I trust no bank and even less a government so I looked around and PM's seemed like a good way. I can bury them and only I know where. I can use them if needed and the aforementioned groups no nothing of what I do. How can this be a bad thing?

TheCenturion
02-24-2016, 03:00 PM
i don't believe you will be able to create gold.
We already create lots of materials, including some not found in nature, at least, not around here. Otherwise, industrial diamond comes to mind.



you keep talking about things that would have value, but somehow, you deny gold's ancient historical relevance.

Fairly sure I spoke highly of gold's historical uses, and that the historical inertia may well wind up in gold becoming a defacto standard again, let alone the metallurgical reasons.



suit yourself, i have nothing more to say.
Well, I appreciate the time and responses. I do leave you with one question: If the SHTF, what of your supplies and stockpile would you be willing to trade me for gold or silver coins, in the immediate aftermath?

I've found many interesting articles of people in SHTF scenarios, like Bosnia, for whom gold and silver were useless as barter, unless you happened to find somebody with contacts to the outside world, as they were the only ones with use for gold and silver.

I agree that gold and silver likely has a place on your list of things to acquire and stockpile. I just think they'll be far, far down the list. Far enough that your average person wouldn't get that far down the list, to be honest.

Swampdonkey
02-24-2016, 03:46 PM
Golg can only be created by splitting or fusing atoms, which while possible, is not economically viable for the forseeable future. Hence synthetic diamonds have nothing to do with creating ir destroying gold.

TheCenturion
02-25-2016, 08:25 AM
Golg can only be created by splitting or fusing atoms, which while possible, is not economically viable for the forseeable future. Hence synthetic diamonds have nothing to do with creating ir destroying gold.

But it's doable. And can be done. And has been done, now that I look into it.

Waterloomike
02-28-2016, 06:37 PM
Well, I appreciate the time and responses. I do leave you with one question: If the SHTF, what of your supplies and stockpile would you be willing to trade me for gold or silver coins, in the immediate aftermath?

Nothing.

TPK
03-04-2016, 03:43 PM
Just heard on the CBC that Canada is down to it's last 77 ounces of gold in the reserve as we are selling it all off. Apparently it has not proven to be as good a return as was hoped.

blacksmithden
03-04-2016, 04:34 PM
Just heard on the CBC that Canada is down to it's last 77 ounces of gold in the reserve as we are selling it all off. Apparently it has not proven to be as good a return as was hoped.

Used stuff aside.Tell me when guns have every gone down in price.

BruceW
03-04-2016, 05:51 PM
More importantly, likely every single person reading this thread has more gold than the country of Canada.........think about that for a second.

Hell, my deceased grandmother likely has more gold in a buried molar than Canada, and she's likely more solvent, but I digress and I'm on my third rye..............

TPK
03-04-2016, 05:52 PM
Used stuff aside.Tell me when guns have every gone down in price.

I mentioned several pages back that looking through my gun safes I see very few that have gone down in price, some have climbed dramatically. All of the ammo on my shelves has gone up and is worth more than I initially paid for it (same with the components .. primers, powder etc.).

Swampdonkey
03-05-2016, 03:17 AM
Used stuff aside.Tell me when guns have every gone down in price.

When they get banned.

Swampdonkey
03-05-2016, 03:19 AM
But it's doable. And can be done. And has been done, now that I look into it.

How much gold has been created? What was the cost per ounce of production? What was is made from?

blacksmithden
03-05-2016, 04:59 AM
When they get banned.

When your government bans you from owning ANY guns is when your guns become priceless. :)

There....THAT ought to have the csis spooks writing reports about me all weekend. Lol !

Waterloomike
03-05-2016, 07:16 AM
kragrihergiponebqrtn[0394NTH[3BQP04TN[034TNB4OIERJGEOIRGOERG

That's the encrypted response.

TPK
03-23-2016, 05:04 PM
Picked up a nice $20 coin at the Post office today, it' one of the coloured ones, a Mule Deer in fact! I was so happy to see a dear other than a Whitetail I bought it. Now why a $20 coin costs almost $100 is hard to fathom .. but I guess being colour and likely a limited run .. don't know if it will ever be worth more than I paid for it or not .. time will tell. Now if I took that same $100 and bought two bricks of .22 ..... I suspect it would increase in value much more and quicker than my coin.

Waterloomike
03-23-2016, 06:23 PM
Picked up a nice $20 coin at the Post office today, it' one of the coloured ones, a Mule Deer in fact! I was so happy to see a dear other than a Whitetail I bought it. Now why a $20 coin costs almost $100 is hard to fathom .. but I guess being colour and likely a limited run .. don't know if it will ever be worth more than I paid for it or not .. time will tell. Now if I took that same $100 and bought two bricks of .22 ..... I suspect it would increase in value much more and quicker than my coin.

Gold is valued at a ratio of about 75 oz to 1 oz of silver. Before this "movement" on gold's cost, silver was historically at 1 to 16 and even 1 to 12 against gold. keep the piece, you may see it worth that again.

TPK
03-24-2016, 09:42 AM
Oh I'll keep it, it's part of a very small but growing collection of this price range coin from the Canadian Mint, they have some pretty cool coins. I collect them for fun and enjoyment, not as an investment. I doubt the coin if considered simply for it's weight in silver will ever reach the price per once I paid for it in my lifetime, but due to it's "collect ability" some interested party may be willing to pay more for it than I did.

TPK
04-04-2016, 03:09 PM
Bought the last $10 coin in the "Canadian Songbirds" four coin set today ($69.50), the Mrs. Loves these. Also ordered 5 of the "$20 coins for $20" series (the T-Rex one) for our Grand kids collections that we started for them a while back. Then wandered over to the hardware store and bought two bags ($35 each) of 230 grn FMJ bullets (100 per bag) for the .45 and a pound of IMR4350 ($56) for some rifle rounds I load. Man has the cost of bullets and powder gone up. I guess if I keep purchasing both silver AND ammunition, I will have a better rounded portfolio .. lol

Waterloomike
04-04-2016, 03:23 PM
gold to silver today is at 81.5 to 1.

pitw
04-04-2016, 08:53 PM
Well we can say what we want about gold/silver being a good store of wealth but as a wealth generator it is woefully bad. 8 years ago i bought a piece of land instead of gold as I got a good deal on it. Today I got a call fro a company who want some dirt and they are willing to pay more for a sall hole than I paid for the 1/4. Should be fun negotiating with them.

TDC
04-10-2016, 12:52 PM
Well we can say what we want about gold/silver being a good store of wealth but as a wealth generator it is woefully bad. 8 years ago i bought a piece of land instead of gold as I got a good deal on it. Today I got a call fro a company who want some dirt and they are willing to pay more for a sall hole than I paid for the 1/4. Should be fun negotiating with them.

Land is valuable, but it's worthless if it's located in a disaster zone(nuclear fall out) or simply an undesirable location. If you can't defend it then you don't own it either. You can't take land with you if you need to relocate. Food for thought.

TDC

pitw
04-10-2016, 01:54 PM
Land is valuable, but it's worthless if it's located in a disaster zone(nuclear fall out) or simply an undesirable location. If you can't defend it then you don't own it either. You can't take land with you if you need to relocate. Food for thought.

TDC

Can you tell me what a person could defend? If you have chosen the place you wish to live and die wisely relocating isn't a requirement. If my land ends up in a nuclear fall out area that probably means I no longer require it, right. If I'm gonna worry about all the what ifs I just as well quit now and save the wear and tear on the brain.
I drive by cities with houses parked a couple feet from each other and a yard big enough to put a kiddy pool in but not much more and wonder why people seem to love living like this. Those houses sell for more than my 1/4 section yard and house. The land I mentioned above has no yardsite but a fellow could build there at any spot they choose. If one of my kids want a decent yard they can have it just so their kids can actually go outside to play.

Candychikita
04-11-2016, 01:34 AM
If I'm gonna worry about all the what ifs I just as well quit now and save the wear and tear on the brain.

You'd be right about that. If there isn't an action you can take, worrying about things isn't helpful...in fact, it stops you from enjoying the moment and is poor for your health.

Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, courage to change the things I can, and wisdom to know the difference.

FALover
04-11-2016, 10:13 AM
Well we can say what we want about gold/silver being a good store of wealth but as a wealth generator it is woefully bad. 8 years ago i bought a piece of land instead of gold as I got a good deal on it. Today I got a call fro a company who want some dirt and they are willing to pay more for a sall hole than I paid for the 1/4. Should be fun negotiating with them.

My ex-fil did a similar thing. When all was done he had a large pond for swimming, thousands of tons of sand all screened and I had a great backstop for plinking.

Waterloomike
04-11-2016, 12:47 PM
Land is wonderful and necessary to survive. Of that there can be no question.

Gold is not so much of an investment as it is insurance.

Being able to sell a soil pit is anecdotal and very few land owners will get to do that.

We're a complicated and multi faceted species. We cannot survive on one or two things we hold dear.

Each person needs to have the freedom to best decide how they will proceed in life and then do it.

What works for one, will not work for all. And vice versa.

pitw
04-12-2016, 07:25 AM
What works for one, will not work for all. And vice versa.

Say what? Are you saying what works for all won't work for one? That makes no sense what so ever.

Waterloomike
04-12-2016, 07:40 AM
What may work for most may not work for all.

I humbly beg your grammatical pardon.

pitw
04-12-2016, 07:56 AM
What may work for most may not work for all.

I humbly beg your grammatical pardon.

Well darn, I was kinda hoping you had figured out a way I didn't have to die.:mad1:

Waterloomike
04-12-2016, 08:13 AM
Well darn, I was kinda hoping you had figured out a way I didn't have to die.:mad1:

I'm hoping you'll figure one out yourself and i'm willing to bet a sum that you will. With or without grammatical mistakes.

:D