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lone-wolf
02-04-2016, 05:01 PM
So yea, it's non-restricted.

http://www.military-today.com/firearms/type_81_l1.jpg

Doug_M
02-04-2016, 05:03 PM
I wondered where your post went!?

Type-81, I'm buying one after October 2019.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

lone-wolf
02-04-2016, 05:08 PM
I wondered where your post went!?

Alright! I thought I made a post about it already, but couldn't find it. Good to know I'm not losing it.

Seeing it non-res, pre-oct 2019 is OK with me. 10rd AK pistol magazines...
I sold my stock pile of 762x39mm UGH

GOC Moderator
02-04-2016, 05:10 PM
I wondered where your post went!?

Type-81, I'm buying one after October 2019.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

As per Rule 18.
Click through (click bait) threads are not allowed. If you have an article you wrote post it on the forum, do not link a short part of it for someone to go to your page, solely to finish reading it.

Please do not post only a link to a article, post the whole article details

lone-wolf
02-04-2016, 05:12 PM
As per Rule 18.

Please do not post only a link to a article, post the whole article details

Seeing how TVPP is a member here, I thought it'd be in poor taste to steal traffic from his site, especially when the important/discussable information is in the title.

TDC
02-04-2016, 05:17 PM
I'm not following. What does this do better than a CZ/VZ 58/858??

TDC

lone-wolf
02-04-2016, 05:28 PM
AK Magazines.
What does a vz58 do better than an xcr?? ect. ect.

Doug_M
02-04-2016, 05:32 PM
I'm not following. What does this do better than a CZ/VZ 58/858??

TDC

I don't think it is a competitor to those (in the Canadian market). Depending on price, I see it more of a competitor to the SKS+Tapco stock combo. I love my SKS as it is cheap and fun, but I really wish it had a pistol grip for ergonomics (don't want a Tapco either).


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lone-wolf
02-04-2016, 05:35 PM
Why does a new rifle entering the market need justification?

TDC
02-04-2016, 06:04 PM
AK Magazines.
What does a vz58 do better than an xcr?? ect. ect.

AK mags are not overly common in Canada, getting better with Magpul mags and the like. The VZ works without issue and for 40% the cost of an XCR, not to mention it has a record as being reliable and in service, the XCR hasn't served anywhere.


I don't think it is a competitor to those (in the Canadian market). Depending on price, I see it more of a competitor to the SKS+Tapco stock combo. I love my SKS as it is cheap and fun, but I really wish it had a pistol grip for ergonomics (don't want a Tapco either).


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I wouldn't hold my breathe as far as pricing goes. I bet it's right up there with a CZ/VZ.


Why does a new rifle entering the market need justification?

No justification needed to come to market. There is however justification needed for it to be a viable option over current offerings. So far I see none.

TDC

The Joe-Man
02-04-2016, 06:08 PM
There is ONE batch of 400 CZ 858s coming in then that's it. No more. These T81s will certainly be a good option for people who want a non-restricted, semi-auto rifle in 7.62x39 after that.

kennymo
02-04-2016, 06:19 PM
There is ONE batch of 400 CZ 858s coming in then that's it. No more. These T81s will certainly be a good option for people who want a non-restricted, semi-auto rifle in 7.62x39 after that.

That's what I was thinking. Depending on price point and with the 958's now delayed until further notice they could attract a lot of attention.... Certainly has my attention.....

firemachine69
02-04-2016, 06:52 PM
I like this.


Can I trade a kidney for it? ;D

JustBen
02-04-2016, 06:55 PM
Interesting. Does it take AK furniture too? Is the muzzle threaded?

Mark-II
02-04-2016, 07:08 PM
Don't know... I won't pay a grand for an 858, and neither would I for this. These are not milsurp rifles, so won't have a milsurp price.

Scope options?

jwirecom109
02-04-2016, 07:10 PM
http://www.kaneohegs.com/images/ak_left_hand_charging_handle_Legion_USA_bad_idea_v s_detail_Original_ak_standard_001.jpg

Mark-II
02-04-2016, 10:15 PM
Mmmm.... I could go for the LMG version that we won't get

Sunshine
02-04-2016, 10:16 PM
Is the type 81 a Soviet Bloc Rifle ?

Call-sign_ENIGMA
02-04-2016, 11:05 PM
Any speculations on the price tag of one of those bad boys?

SIR VEYOR
02-04-2016, 11:08 PM
AK mags are not overly common in Canada, getting better with Magpul mags and the like.

I dunno. I can always order a few direct from a dealer. And cheaper than most mags I see for sale.

TDC
02-04-2016, 11:30 PM
I dunno. I can always order a few direct from a dealer. And cheaper than most mags I see for sale.

Still looks to be lacking. The muzzle device looks permanent, the sights are classic irons with what looks like no decent option for mounting optics. It's a full pound heavier than a VZ/CZ which is still available in the CSA line. Not to mention the use of AK mags negates the bolt hold open feature.

My bet is these will be around the $1000 mark.

TDC

Swampdonkey
02-04-2016, 11:47 PM
No optic mount and no historical significance.

Sunshine
02-04-2016, 11:58 PM
I think they look good, better than the CSA VZ 58, and a thousand times better than the 958 thing.

I have no doubt a side rail will be a piece of cake to install.

$1000 is a fair price given the competition.

RealDeckard
02-05-2016, 02:44 AM
They don't take AK mags, they do hold open, and look how fast CZ-58 railed handguards were developed. In Canada I should point out.

tdod101
02-05-2016, 04:55 AM
This is excellent news. One more rifle available in our market. Love it or hate it, its AVAILABLE!!!!

lone-wolf
02-05-2016, 06:56 AM
They don't take AK mags, they do hold open, and look how fast CZ-58 railed handguards were developed. In Canada I should point out.

They're supposedly will take AK magazines, but won't hold open with them. Did someone confirm otherwise?

I personally have no interest in another 762x39mm rifle, but it's great to see more.

Sunshine
02-05-2016, 07:15 AM
They're supposedly will take AK magazines, but won't hold open with them. Did someone confirm otherwise?

I think type 81 magazines work.

RealDeckard
02-05-2016, 07:51 AM
I believe the 81 mags are wider and the locking lug dimensions are different. So AK mags might work, accounting for the wobble and such. I just wouldn't stock up on AK if you don't have them. It would, theoretically, give room for an AR pistol mag conversion. Galils have these.

RealDeckard
02-05-2016, 08:34 AM
My concern is the fanboys will drive up the price. I recall them on the other forum bragging that they'd pay 'anything' for this or that. Credit card heroes with zero common sense.

3MTA3
02-05-2016, 08:36 AM
I want one for the same price as a SKS.

SIR VEYOR
02-05-2016, 08:40 AM
I want one for the same price as a SKS.

you left off the "D"

RealDeckard
02-05-2016, 09:09 AM
I once bought a D new for $99.

SIR VEYOR
02-05-2016, 09:23 AM
I once bought a D new for $99.

And gas was under 40 cents at the pump...

Type 81 is appealing to those who like the "D" concept. So comparable to going rate now, not when the earlier Trudeau was our Precious Metal king lol

lone-wolf
02-05-2016, 10:10 AM
I believe the 81 mags are wider and the locking lug dimensions are different. So AK mags might work, accounting for the wobble and such. I just wouldn't stock up on AK if you don't have them. It would, theoretically, give room for an AR pistol mag conversion. Galils have these.

Eh, is the AK Pistol magazine a thing, or near a thing, yet?

RealDeckard
02-05-2016, 10:38 AM
The minute you alter that mag it's 5 rounds.

Wendell
02-05-2016, 06:47 PM
I'm just happy to be here. Finally. :Beer time:

murph83
02-05-2016, 07:26 PM
Is the type 81 a Soviet Bloc Rifle ?

No i don't believe it is. The chinese took the SKS and the AK47 and came up with this ( type 81) design.

Sunshine
02-05-2016, 10:17 PM
No i don't believe it is. The chinese took the SKS and the AK47 and came up with this ( type 81) design.

That confirms what I thought........ Thanks

Swampdonkey
02-06-2016, 12:05 AM
My concern is the fanboys will drive up the price. I recall them on the other forum bragging that they'd pay 'anything' for this or that. Credit card heroes with zero common sense.

Same reason cheapskates don't get dates. The goods always go to the highest bidder.

Maybe it'll be like a Model T and Henry Ford will send you a rebate.

Benito
02-06-2016, 01:12 AM
Wow. I am actually totally surprised this.
Does this eject casings out the side or out the top like the VZ?

Foxer
02-06-2016, 01:32 AM
Wow. I am actually totally surprised this.
Does this eject casings out the side or out the top like the VZ?

Well historically with this type of firearm the angle of ejection depends entirely on where i'm standing in relation to the shooter.

RealDeckard
02-06-2016, 03:39 AM
Wow. I am actually totally surprised this.
Does this eject casings out the side or out the top like the VZ?

The bolt and the ejector suggests right and forward ejection.

Petamocto
02-06-2016, 06:58 AM
As with the de-restricted shotgun, this is another gun I don't personally care for, but I am very impressed that it doesn't seem like the deck is stacked against us anymore.

For so long it has seemed like other than some in one party, everyone else involved in the process only wanted to head in the direction of banning everything.

First the Modern Hunter surprise, and now these two this week. Maybe there is hope.

lone-wolf
02-06-2016, 07:51 AM
No... it's not an AK derivative, not exactly. One of the first indigenous Chinese assault rifles, the Type 81 entered service in the early 1980s with the People's Liberation Army and the People's Armed Police and remained in the front lines well into the 2000s, with millions manufactured and sold to armed forces around the globe as well.


Aesthetically patterned after an AK, but based upon a Simonov SKS-type short-stroke piston system with some recoil reduction improvements, the Type 81 was first made in a civilian version in the late 1980s; it was listed as "available" on the United States market only for a few months, though, before being banned from import in 1989.


Now, after many years of hiatus, the North China Industries Corporation (NORINCO) is finally reprising the concept and launching a new semi-automatic civilian version of the Type 81 assault rifle platform, under the NR-81 brand name.

Chambered for the 7.62x39mm round and fed through AK-type magazines, the NR-81 rifles are fully manufactured out of steel, with brown plastic being used only for the furniture.


There are three variants available: the NR-81S and NR-81S1 sport the same frame and 45cm. barrel, but while the model 81S comes with a fixed stock, the 81S1 variant sports a side-folding metal stock with a plastic insert. The Model NR-81S2 is instead a civilian variant of the Type 81 LMG, sporting a different stock and a long, heavy-profile barrel with a folding bipod.

https://www.all4shooters.com/en/specials/Trade-shows-2014/IWA-2014/rifles/Norinco-NR81S/

Seen this on cgn, were the ones made for US import, put into storage?
If so, the initial run should be cheap, or cheaper than the later imports at least.
New production, should be able to use the surplus, or surplus parts. Not the receivers though...

infidel29
02-06-2016, 02:42 PM
always good to have more options to choose from...

Drache
02-06-2016, 02:50 PM
Really really what is the difference between this and say an SKS-D with a stock kit?

RobertMcC
02-06-2016, 03:28 PM
Type 81 is a win for us, being they are finally seeing the logic. That shear looks doesn't = variant.

But I don't think I would buy one. Owning a SKS D, and several VZ58/CSA They just don't do it for me.

lone-wolf
02-06-2016, 03:28 PM
Really really what is the difference between this and say an SKS-D with a stock kit?
I never seen a sks-d stock kit that eliminated the need for a stock for the trigger group to hook into and added a pistol grip and buttstock assembly to the receiver.

Shouldn't be much difference. Looks like the gas piston will be one piece like the vz58 - judging from the small rear sight block. Small but nice improvement if so. The vz58 is easier to clean than the sks.

kennymo
02-06-2016, 04:21 PM
I never seen a sks-d stock kit that eliminated the need for a stock for the trigger group to hook into and added a pistol grip and buttstock assembly to the receiver.

Shouldn't be much difference. Looks like the gas piston will be one piece like the vz58 - judging from the small rear sight block. Small but nice improvement if so. The vz58 is easier to clean than the sks.

Based strictly on what I can see in the various photos, it seems to me this could more or less be the guts of an SKS-D squeezed into a stamped receiver and dust cover with provisions for AK-like furniture. I haven't spent a whole pile of time researching that theory though.... Simply first impressions...

Wendell
02-06-2016, 05:45 PM
Type 81 is a win for us, being they are finally seeing the logic...

No, they are just setting the political stage to create a perception among the masses of a necessity for new firearms legislation with additional restrictions.

oilman28
02-06-2016, 06:01 PM
Based strictly on what I can see in the various photos, it seems to me this could more or less be the guts of an SKS-D squeezed into a stamped receiver and dust cover with provisions for AK-like furniture. I haven't spent a whole pile of time researching that theory though.... Simply first impressions...

I wonder if the new Magpul AK furniture would fit on it..

RealDeckard
02-06-2016, 07:49 PM
I never seen a sks-d stock kit that eliminated the need for a stock for the trigger group to hook into and added a pistol grip and buttstock assembly to the receiver.

Lucky Shot wood stocks are pretty nice.

Booletsnotreactwell
02-07-2016, 07:48 AM
I'm excited for it.

The VZ's are fine rifles but this guns mechanism is entirely different and I'd say more reliable if it's anything like the SKS which it's based off. With the VZ58, particularly the CSA ones, they had issues like broken strikers, etc... The CZ ones were solid but the finish looked like shit.

For those who can't have AKs the SKS is the next best thing except the Russian ones don't have a detachable magazine option which doesn't suck and by the time you get an SKS-D, put on a stock, rails, pistol grip and generally "AK it up", you've spent like $2000 on some custom gun.

I have no doubts regarding Chinese craftsmanship when it comes to guns they build from scratch and not clones of American ones, although some of those can be really good though. Just look at the difference between Chinese SKS's and Russian ones. It'll probably be all chromed up inside, the guts and all and have a chrome lined barrel, exactly what's needed for shooting mass quantities of corrosive surplus.

lone-wolf
02-07-2016, 08:00 AM
Aztech can probably import and pin some friggin cheap AK magazines for it.

Sunshine
02-07-2016, 08:49 AM
The CZ ones were solid but the finish looked like shit.

I would say a better finish never existed, and the CSA VZ's look like shit.

http://i958.photobucket.com/albums/ae70/czechthis_bucket/11823061_1481893535461379_4563030211070794370_o_zp sf7lizeco.jpg

http://i958.photobucket.com/albums/ae70/czechthis_bucket/11060862_1481893658794700_9206702286046954230_o_zp sqheyrghd.jpg


http://i958.photobucket.com/albums/ae70/czechthis_bucket/DSCF1182_zpssolcv821.jpg

Sunshine
02-07-2016, 08:52 AM
Aztech can probably import and pin some friggin cheap AK magazines for it.


What's wrong with the Type 81 magazines ?

lone-wolf
02-07-2016, 09:14 AM
What's wrong with the Type 81 magazines ?

Number of AK magazines in the US: Millions?
Number of type 81 magazines known to exist or plan on being imported: Unknown

What's wrong with cheap magazines from a known source?

Sunshine
02-07-2016, 09:39 AM
What's wrong with cheap magazines from a known source?

AK mags don't work properly :)

RealDeckard
02-07-2016, 10:17 AM
I recall AKs costing $400 and coming with three mags. Vendors would be wise to assemble 5 and 10 packs of 81 mags. The 81 is largely phased out. When the mag supply dries up THEN consider AK mags as back up.

TDC
02-07-2016, 02:47 PM
Number of AK magazines in the US: Millions?
Number of type 81 magazines known to exist or plan on being imported: Unknown

What's wrong with cheap magazines from a known source?

If you are referencing US sales of the type 81 that is not going to happen. If you're thinking about importing AK mags into Canada for the type 81 that will cost a fortune with our crappy dollar.

TDC

lone-wolf
02-07-2016, 02:51 PM
If you are referencing US sales of the type 81 that is not going to happen. If you're thinking about importing AK mags into Canada for the type 81 that will cost a fortune with our crappy dollar.

TDC
Not referencing US sales, referencing that there are known sources of large number of ak magazines vs no known sources of type 81 magazines.
I see ak mags already in canada at decent prices.
Aztech already imported magazines for me at $40 less per mag than they sell in canada. Crappy dollar would of only added $15 dollar per mag, still a steal vs canadian sources.

TDC
02-07-2016, 02:54 PM
Not referencing US sales, referencing that there are known sources of large number of ak magazines vs no known sources of type 81 magazines.
I see ak mags already in canada at decent prices.
Aztech already imported magazines for me at $40 less per mag than they sell in canada. Crappy dollar would of only added $15 dollar per mag, still a steal vs canadian sources.


True, but still expensive.

TDC

lone-wolf
02-07-2016, 02:56 PM
True, but still expensive.

TDC

No kidding!

Dang mini14 magazines. At least I have enough now. Hard to believe they go for $90!
Makes you wonder if they go the printer route, cut pricing to the rifles and make it back on magazines...

Sunshine
02-07-2016, 05:21 PM
Norinco magazines were/are cheap, why should type 81 magazines be different ?

TDC
02-07-2016, 08:27 PM
Norinco magazines were/are cheap, why should type 81 magazines be different ?

An SKS used to $99 bucks as well, so why are they so grossly over priced now? Supply and demand. And the natural tendency for businesses to rape their customers. Seems to be a Canadian thing.

TDC

Sunshine
02-07-2016, 08:39 PM
An SKS used to $99 bucks as well, so why are they so grossly over priced now? Supply and demand. And the natural tendency for businesses to rape their customers. Seems to be a Canadian thing.

TDC$250 or less will buy a like new Russian SKS, hardly over priced. In the US you will pay much more.

Gaidheal
02-07-2016, 09:05 PM
$250 or less will buy a like new Russian SKS, hardly over priced. In the US you will pay much more.

The US has seen an import ban for quite a while now. $600 USD might be cheap for something that is rare or hard to get and will not come in again. $250 CDN for something NOT rare is another story.

That said the last bunch of SKS's that I bought were $144 each for the quantity I ordered. If my local PD ever comes under fire I am more than willing to rent-out some help. Cash up front :)

My local CTC has them for around $229. Considering that my local CTC has had guns of *any* sort for a only few months that is not bad in a small market. PEI is small potatoes no matter what.

BUT you *have* to consider there is an unknown number of them in the supply chain. Could be 7 figures. Could be 8. or 9. Or more.

And that is just the Russian ones. I was into the SKS thing about a quarter century ago with some Chinese stuff. Not as robust as my Czech 52/57s... but the SKS *is* lighter. Not as good, but way more common. Want some cheap-ammo fun with a gun that is surprisingly accurate & will generate questions at the range? Shoot a VZ 52/57. Out-shoot anyone with an SKS with their bullets. Czech border guards seem to have have been issued a very effective weapon against escapees.

All that said I want some '81s now just because it seems to fill a 7.62x39 itch where my probhib Galil SARs seem to live.

a 1911 is a pretty good "get the fuck outta my house" gun, but few things convey fuck-you like an AK-ish sort of thing.

81's being NR makes a judge ruling *WAY* better than a Galil SAR.

:D

TDC
02-07-2016, 09:16 PM
$250 or less will buy a like new Russian SKS, hardly over priced. In the US you will pay much more.

The SKS is a POS. At $99 they were over priced, the current pricing is laughable for what you get. My point is that supply and demand will dictate the price. If there's a rush on AK mags for the type81 you can expect the price to climb rapidly.

TDC

RealDeckard
02-07-2016, 09:42 PM
I'd be more worried about fanboys turning a fairly mundane rifle into a holy grail and encouraging high ticket prices so they can proudly emulate a rural China tactical hipster.

Gaidheal
02-07-2016, 10:05 PM
I'd be more worried about fanboys turning a fairly mundane rifle into a holy grail and encouraging high ticket prices so they can proudly emulate a rural China tactical hipster.

LOL without fanboys you could buy ANYTHING GM made in the last 4 decades (maybe excluding the Corvette) for a few eggs. If *EVER* there was a company that should have withered on the vine...

Why would rifles be any different?

Sunshine
02-08-2016, 12:36 AM
The SKS is a POS. At $99 they were over priced, the current pricing is laughable for what you get. My point is that supply and demand will dictate the price. If there's a rush on AK mags for the type81 you can expect the price to climb rapidly.

TDC


SKS rifles are not sought after here, that is why they are so cheap. Supply and demand. :)

Satain
02-08-2016, 05:07 PM
So yea, it's non-restricted.

http://www.military-today.com/firearms/type_81_l1.jpg

I got $20 for someone who can tell me who made a rifle like that in honor of it's release :P

Mobusten
02-08-2016, 06:27 PM
I love that folding stock. I hope it comes with that. Or both that and the wood. And many mags :)

RealDeckard
02-08-2016, 06:36 PM
That stock is very solid and has a cleaning kit in it. Some 56s had it.

TDC
02-08-2016, 09:32 PM
LOL without fanboys you could buy ANYTHING GM made in the last 4 decades (maybe excluding the Corvette) for a few eggs. If *EVER* there was a company that should have withered on the vine...

Why would rifles be any different?

With or without the fanboys, why would you want a GM product?? Low quality junk with endless recalls from a company that got a large bailout because it is so poorly run it can't stay afloat... Hard pass ;)


SKS rifles are not sought after here, that is why they are so cheap. Supply and demand. :)

I'm not so sure you're right. The price seems to reflect that many are still being sold..

The type 81 looks cheap on paper, but it will be a very over priced rifle by the time it hits the shelves, same goes for mags, parts and accessories. Supply and demand..

TDC

RealDeckard
02-08-2016, 09:59 PM
81Tards. The new term.

Mark-II
02-08-2016, 10:08 PM
So wait for the first wave to sell out and hope the dollar doesn't lose another dime before the second batch.

Dealers will undercut each other to get market share or hold sales to move bulk quantities. It's not like they're selling Glocks

Booletsnotreactwell
02-09-2016, 12:04 AM
I wouldn't mind a few dedicated T81 mags but if and when this does ever hit the market I'd make up most of my inventory with AK mags for the same reason my black rifle inventory is all running on STANAG magazines, it gives you options.

When I buy a gun, I buy a lot of magazines for it and a gun without magazines is useless. While polymer magazines have major advantages most are not STANAG compliant which is why you see people having to shave down or file a certain area to get them to work across other platforms, even the ones claiming to be compliant aren't completely. I'm not gonna spend $300 on the newest polymer hexagonal shaped AR15 mags only for them to be useless in any other black rifle. I know with genuine aluminum mags they'll work in my AR, Tavor, XCR, a freaken M249 SAW, and pretty much everything else NATO. I can only imagine Eastern Block firearms work the same way and most things run off AK mags or are built to interface with them to some extent.


As for the T81 being based off an SKS, we need to stop saying that in the absolute sense. It's actually substantially different, by that logic the AR15 is based off the M1 Garand.

Sadosubliminal
02-09-2016, 08:49 AM
My opinion, FWIW, is that this rifle should be marketed as the step between an SKS and a vz58. It's not as clean looking as a vz58, it looks rough and hacked together (once again, my opinion), and I hate how far forward the mag sits, just like a Crapco'd SKS.

Beauty is surely in the eye of the beholder, so what bugs me aesthetically may be just dandy for others, I simply think it looks like a poor franken-job, much like the T97 (which I own, but damn it's ugly)

Here's my reasoning: the T97 isn't on the same echelon as a Tavor, it doesn't have the looks, the aftermarket support, the parts availability, the functionality, etc etc. Thankfully, the vendors recognized this and priced it accordingly. It is by far the cheapest bullpup solution to be had in Canada, so we can forgive a lot on the T97.

If the Type 81 comes in at the same price point as the vz58, I see no reason why I would buy one. It's uglier, the parts availability may be just as scarce as the t97, and the aftermarket support isn't there and may not ever be. We have no info on how well made it is, how reliable, etc. Now that's not going to stop some people from snatching up the first batch no matter how high they're priced, simply because it's new and different. And that is none of my business; it's called free market capitalism, so I support it.

That said, as a vendor I would ideally want to price them around the $650 mark (unless I paid more for them from the importer). Volume sales trumps all, and it's never a bad thing to flood the market with guns. I think that would be a fair price to pay for an ugly franken-rifle that's better looking than an SKS but not as polished as as vz58 (again, subjective opinion here).

Frankly, I think they'll sell fast enough even at $1K or more, but I personally will not buy one unless it comes in under $700. To each his own.

ilikemoose
02-10-2016, 01:01 PM
This rifle is not even in country, and yet it has collected a dedicated cadre of haters.

RealDeckard
02-10-2016, 01:42 PM
It was great if they Krinked it.

TDC
02-10-2016, 01:49 PM
This rifle is not even in country, and yet it has collected a dedicated cadre of haters.

Well for starters it's a Norc so you know quality is close to zero. Second, it will be grossly over priced, it's the Canadian way. Third, it offers nothing over other rifles already available. Fourth, it will be a nightmare to mount optics if at all, and lastly it has no aftermarket support.

TDC

RealDeckard
02-10-2016, 02:05 PM
I disagree. There are many Type 56s out there operating since the 60s. You still see them in the Middle East. It will be overpriced. I have discovered that CZ-58s were sold for $150. New Type 56s and 84s were $400. The price for these could be in the $650 range. Theoretically. The competition might help. Canadians developed rail mods for both the 58 and Chicom bullpup. Why wouldn't this be the same? Smart vendors should have a side AK mount included in the design. If it comes down to a choice between dealers, whoever does this wins.

Mobusten
02-10-2016, 02:14 PM
Well for starters it's a Norc so you know quality is close to zero. Second, it will be grossly over priced, it's the Canadian way. Third, it offers nothing over other rifles already available. Fourth, it will be a nightmare to mount optics if at all, and lastly it has no aftermarket support.

TDC

Norinco's are typically reliable, not pretty. It might be overpriced, I've not seen a price yet. What it offers is another OPTION for people. I wouldn't want to mount an optic on it anyways, aftermarket support will come after its ON the market if the rifle turns out to be popular.

ilikemoose
02-10-2016, 02:23 PM
Well for starters it's a Norc so you know quality is close to zero. Second, it will be grossly over priced, it's the Canadian way. Third, it offers nothing over other rifles already available. Fourth, it will be a nightmare to mount optics if at all, and lastly it has no aftermarket support.

TDC

I know nothing about its quality....which might range from poor to servicable...time will tell.

Some Norc products offer good value for money...others not so much...will wait and see.

It probably offers little over the VZ and CZ rifles...but some direct competition for them is a good thing IMO, since as you said there is a tendency for Canadian importers to charge what the market will bear.

You are probably right about the shortcomings around optics....but thats the case with other rifles in its class.

Aftremarket support only matters if you want to tapcof##k the thing.

I will be happy to poop on the thing if its warranted, but why jump the gun?

TDC
02-10-2016, 02:59 PM
I know nothing about its quality....which might range from poor to servicable...time will tell.

Some Norc products offer good value for money...others not so much...will wait and see.

It probably offers little over the VZ and CZ rifles...but some direct competition for them is a good thing IMO, since as you said there is a tendency for Canadian importers to charge what the market will bear.

You are probably right about the shortcomings around optics....but thats the case with other rifles in its class.

Aftremarket support only matters if you want to tapcof##k the thing.

I will be happy to poop on the thing if its warranted, but why jump the gun?

True, time will tell. My concern for aftermarket is for better stocks, sights, comps, and grips. Tapco is low end crap for the most part.

TDC

Doug_M
02-10-2016, 03:11 PM
True, time will tell. My concern for aftermarket is for better stocks, sights, comps, and grips. Tapco is low end crap for the most part.

For me I wouldn't want it modernized. Like an SKS or SVT-40, I'd want it "stock" and looking like the older rifle that it is. A removable side rail for optics would be about it but that is only because I have older eyes and irons are a little more difficult for me these days.

Modernized AK-47's don't appeal to me either. Classic wood all the way! Too each their own I suppose, but my point is that there is a market for plain Jane as it were.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Mobusten
02-10-2016, 03:54 PM
Agreed ^

RealDeckard
02-10-2016, 04:37 PM
An AK side rail makes sense. The rest of the junk is pointless.

Satain
02-10-2016, 05:35 PM
http://www.kaneohegs.com/images/ak_left_hand_charging_handle_Legion_USA_bad_idea_v s_detail_Original_ak_standard_001.jpg
Negatory Star Captain
There is a way to put optics on this rifle withoutthe hideous Russian side mount ;)

Sunshine
02-10-2016, 06:20 PM
They will have to be priced competitively or they will not sell.

RealDeckard
02-10-2016, 06:41 PM
It will sell to some degree since the "I'll pay anything" crowd want to step up from their Tapcoized SKS. It would be better for our community if they were affordable, and imported in the thousands.

Sunshine
02-10-2016, 07:49 PM
That would be best, but who is going to fork out the cash to buy thousands of type 81's ?

Stephen
02-10-2016, 10:24 PM
Looks pretty cool and I am glad they are coming here but I don't need one.

Deuce-deuce
02-10-2016, 10:37 PM
That would be best, but who is going to fork out the cash to buy thousands of type 81's ?

There's a few businesses out there that will... FYI thousands of these wouldn't be that much money. My guess is if you ordered a thousand it would be in the 3,000 range. Might even be less.

Sunshine
02-11-2016, 12:07 AM
There's a few businesses out there that will... FYI thousands of these wouldn't be that much money. My guess is if you ordered a thousand it would be in the 3,000 range. Might even be less.


3 bucks each ! Gimme 3 and keep the change. LOL ;)

Doug_M
02-11-2016, 05:50 AM
Looks pretty cool and I am glad they are coming here but I don't need one.

I don't "need" one either. But I want one! I love the 7.62x39 cartridge for plinking and I look forward to all the "you can't have that, its prohibited" converstations at the range!

RealDeckard
02-11-2016, 08:36 AM
I recall one guy sharting when he saw a CZ-58 for the first time many years ago. He actually said that.

RobertMcC
02-11-2016, 09:17 AM
$250 or less will buy a like new Russian SKS, hardly over priced. In the US you will pay much more.

They go on sale for 169 at my CT. Even then I didnt buy one. I got a SKS D that dad trying to throw at me.


The SKS is a POS. At $99 they were over priced, the current pricing is laughable for what you get. My point is that supply and demand will dictate the price. If there's a rush on AK mags for the type81 you can expect the price to climb rapidly.

TDC

I bought my first for 75$

Sunshine
02-11-2016, 09:42 AM
I hope I'm wrong, but think it will be a looong time before we see the type 81 for sale in Canada.

RealDeckard
02-11-2016, 09:47 AM
My intro to SKSs was three Russki laminated for $200. Before it was cool for every 18 year old to buy one.

The Joe-Man
02-11-2016, 11:53 AM
I hope I'm wrong, but think it will be a looong time before we see the type 81 for sale in Canada.

Canada Ammo figures it will be about 8 months.

Benito
02-11-2016, 11:51 PM
It seems interesting. I might get one if the price is reasonable. I am not going to pay out the nose for a Norinco that there are 100 Million of stacked up in warehouses.

Sunshine
02-12-2016, 12:08 AM
It seems interesting. I might get one if the price is reasonable. I am not going to pay out the nose for a Norinco that there are 100 Million of stacked up in warehouses.

The originals are select fire. the type 81's to be imported will need to be purpose built as semi only.

Booletsnotreactwell
02-12-2016, 08:38 AM
Guys that think everything Norinco is bad are seriously mislead. Norinco products are above average quality for the price you pay. In the 90's Americans could buy Polytech AK's for $200, even AK purists agree that for a 1:1 copy of the AKM it's the best clone or non Russian AK available when not considering improvement variants like the Valmets, etc. Norinco products are produced in huge state sponsored arms factory's by people paid $1 an hour, an American manufacture wouldn't even be finished milling you a stripped receiver for $200 if they tried to make an AK yet you get a fully functional product from Norinco for that price. You don't have to look far, Norinco AR15's are alright for the price you pay, except they're leaps and bounds better than NEA which is a Canadian company.

As for Norinco AK's, look at what those AK's sell for on Gunbroker, $3000. It's the closest thing most can get to a real AK, Americans don't get real AK's they get WASR parts imported as kits to be 922R compliant and assembled stateside. The Russian AK's you see are modified Saiga rifles with a blend of original AK parts and U.S. made parts to be 922R compliant. People pay that much because the Polytechs are the closest to the real deal and are really well made. The Chinese SKS's you see in Canada are better than the original Russian ones, the insides are all chromed up, the bore is chromed, more parts are milled, etc...

You look at the Norinco M305, you could buy that for $300 at one point, a US made Springfield M1A is like $2000 or more. When in comes to M1A, M14 type guns the whole rage behind them is making them "USGI" just like the AR15 crowd is obsessed with "milspec". It's faster and cheaper to do that with the Chinese one than the American one, the Chinese used forged receivers and many parts fall within "USGI Spec", a lot more than the commercial Springfield M1A which used MIM and cast parts from Brazil (which they then claim is American made). Baring shitty finish, or shitty furniture that ships with the gun the Norinco M14 clone spanks the American one and it's literally X5 cheaper.


I'm nearly convinced that because this gun is made by Polytech/Norinco or whatever Chinese arms factory, it will be of higher quality than any commercial VZ58 we've seen.

RealDeckard
02-12-2016, 08:53 AM
The milled MAK-90s, even with the crap wood, is one of the best around for that price.

Gaidheal
02-12-2016, 03:35 PM
Love my milled-frame 1911a1

Go Norionco!

Petamocto
02-12-2016, 09:42 PM
I don't at all like this gun as it looks OEM, but I will admit that I'm curious to see if any cool aftermarket kits come out for it. I don't like the tacticool SKS kits, but my fingers are crossed on this, particularly if it's lighter furniture.

The only reason I haven't bought a 7.62x39 so far is that an SKS seems like it weighs more than it needs to, which is too bad because the recoil on the 39 is so little.

That said, Ed from TV Press Pass is esimating the price of this Type 81 to be WAY more than an SKS now, and if that happens, it would be too bad because few people will pay $500+ for these, let alone $800+.

Sunshine
02-12-2016, 10:49 PM
That said, Ed from TV Press Pass is esimating the price of this Type 81 to be WAY more than an SKS now, and if that happens, it would be too bad because few people will pay $500+ for these, let alone $800+. If they advertise Type 81's for under $ 700 they will sell easily.

Petamocto
02-12-2016, 10:52 PM
If they advertise Type 81's for under $ 700 they will sell easily.

You really think so? Why? What makes this gun so special?

I'm happy that it's NR, but it's not 3.5x better than an SKS.

The Joe-Man
02-13-2016, 01:12 AM
You really think so? Why? What makes this gun so special?

I'm happy that it's NR, but it's not 3.5x better than an SKS.

Do you consider a VZ58 5 times better than an SKS? Anything under $1,000 and these will be flying off the shelves. Canada Ammo hinted that the price would be around $800-$900.

Mobusten
02-13-2016, 02:09 AM
You really think so? Why? What makes this gun so special?

I'm happy that it's NR, but it's not 3.5x better than an SKS.

It would be significantly cheaper than cz/vz types, and this gun is literally supposed to be an improved combination between SKS and AK. Whether it actually is I can't say, but I'd be willing to bet that it's more user friendly than an SKS. $200 SKS' are also usually mixed up parts from various old ass rifles too, these will be newly manufactured won't they?

RealDeckard
02-13-2016, 06:06 AM
It could sell for exactly the same as the 305. Even when the 97 was coming in it was meant to be $750 with a reported dealer cost of $400. These are very surplussy. The only reason there is interest is AK fever and banana mag lust. But enough mall ninjas roll that way. Predict $599-699. If dealers factor in mags, which probably have a dealer cost of $5, they still win. When you add the railed handguard undoubtedly to be made by NEA or someone else, you get more buying it. Personally I'm more practical. Give me an AK side rail and a longer sight radius and I'm good.

Booletsnotreactwell
02-13-2016, 07:55 AM
You really think so? Why? What makes this gun so special?

I'm happy that it's NR, but it's not 3.5x better than an SKS.

For one, takes actual detachable box magazines not some half assed aftermarket solution that's slower than just loading it with stripper clips. Those tapco mags kits you see on SKS's rifles, unless it's a Chinese D model aren't "rock n lock", there's a whole half assed procedure to do a mag change on those. Folding stock, pistol grip, basically has all the "upgrades" of a modern military rifle, the kind guys try to turn their SKS into. Not to mention the mechanism is completely different than an SKS and that mechanical action could have advantages over the SKS's operating system.


While I'm a firm believer of SKS rifles being the best bang for you dollar, dollar:firepower wise, it isn't fair to compare a new production guns price to one that was built 60 years or more ago, considered outdated, stashed away and now put out for fire sale prices to get rid of them. It would be like complaining why Remington .223 is $580 per 1000 when Norinco .223 could be had for $200 for 1600 at one point. Both those products were made many years ago, again in state sponsored arms factory's at the cost of whatever the raw materials/labor was in those days. A fair comparison would be the cost of what a newly manufactured SKS would be and say "is it x times better" of whatever price that would be. A newly manufactured SKS would probably be $100 less than whatever this is gonna cost the Chinese to make the Type 81.

That's not to say there won't be some initial hype pricing, I wouldn't be surprised that a greedy Canadian dealer pumps it up due to the hype (it's a free market after all), maybe even pull a second dirty one and jack up the price some more saying it's the "bad Canadian dollar" ending up with a $1500 price tag. That said, $1000 a unit or less, it'll move fast. $800 or less and man that's a lot of modern firepower for that price, I'd say it could be a new black rifle niche just like you have the AR crowd you'll have the T81 crowd, it'll fill the void of the AK crowd you see in the U.S.

Sunshine
02-13-2016, 09:21 AM
You really think so? Why? What makes this gun so special?


Yes I really think so, because $700 is nothing to spend on a new rifle. Similar rifles such as the CSA VZ 58 cost $1,099.95 from a local dealer. I have seen used CZ 858s go for even more. At $700 the Type 81 would be a bargain.





I'm happy that it's NR, but it's not 3.5x better than an SKS.

Don't buy one then :)

RealDeckard
02-13-2016, 09:55 AM
Well dealers like your idea that high prices are okay. VZ-58S were about $500-600 early on. I picked up one from a dealer not used for $375. Then the prices creeped up. It's not 'nothing' to pay high prices. It's everything. The more of these on the market is less likely our foes will come after them without thinking twice.

Sunshine
02-13-2016, 10:06 AM
Well dealers like your idea that high prices are okay. VZ-58S were about $500-600 early on. I picked up one from a dealer not used for $375. Then the prices creeped up. It's not 'nothing' to pay high prices. It's everything. The more of these on the market is less likely our foes will come after them without thinking twice.

If everyone was a miserable old miser who expected something for nothing we would not get them at all, I'm very glad that's not the case.


I'm sure you would be very happy with an SKS. :)

RealDeckard
02-13-2016, 10:13 AM
Lordy. I've given some scenarios in which dealers made money at lower prices. They weren't giving them away. Nice spin though.

ilikemoose
02-13-2016, 05:17 PM
I would love to see price wars between type 81s and the Cz and Vz rifles, or if not wars, then stiff competition.

That idea alone makes me exited.

Petamocto
02-13-2016, 06:40 PM
If everyone was a miserable old miser who expected something for nothing we would not get them at all, I'm very glad that's not the case. I'm sure you would be very happy with an SKS. :)

It's got nothing to do with the dollar amount, it has to do with what you're getting for your money.

I'll happily pay $2000k for a Daniel Defense MilSpec+ AR instead of $500 for a Norinco AR, but I won't spend $800 for a Type 81 if they're not that much better than a $200 SKS.

Time will tell and the market will decide if this was a success or not. It's not that it will cost $800 that's a problem, it's that you can start to buy decent quality rifles for that money. If this were known as the world's best rifle and it came over here selling for $800 then they would sell out.

But if they're just "okay", then they'll sell a few to people who like to get in on fads, but they won't keep selling like the SKS and VZ/CZ models do.

lone-wolf
02-13-2016, 08:00 PM
I think it makes more sense to pay 4x for a rifle with extra features and different ergonomics, paying 4x for a DD that is ergonomically the same as a norc m4? I don't know...

As far as what you get for your money, an sportered enfield is probably a better choice than a sks.
People just buy an sks cause ammo costs nothing, and it goes bang. It's value is noise and a little recoil.

Edit, I'm watching the canucks lose to the leafs, so if I'm crass... it's torontos fault.

SpenceyHR
02-13-2016, 11:42 PM
I'm going to do the same thing i do when I'm trying to decide if a video game or movie is worth the money: wait to see the reviews before I jump to conclusions.

Booletsnotreactwell
02-14-2016, 07:48 AM
It's got nothing to do with the dollar amount, it has to do with what you're getting for your money.

I'll happily pay $2000k for a Daniel Defense MilSpec+ AR instead of $500 for a Norinco AR, but I won't spend $800 for a Type 81 if they're not that much better than a $200 SKS.

I'll just forget that you glanced over the comments regarding the multiple differences between it and an SKS.

Applying that same logic, how is a $1800 DD AR15 $800 better than back when you could get IRG Colt 6920's for $1000 flat to your door? That's nearly two guns for the price of one. Is a KAC $3000 AR three times better? I know the differences, cold hammer forged barrel, cerakote, etc... I got a Colt with 15,000rds through it and it's only a messily button rifled barrel with messily simple parkerized/anodized finish yet it's still grouping and still has yet to see rust...


It's not that it will cost $800 that's a problem, it's that you can start to buy decent quality rifles for that money. If this were known as the world's best rifle and it came over here selling for $800 then they would sell out.

Go a page back, read what I said about Polytech/Norinco, specifically the AK's they were selling in the 90's then don't take my word for it and go look it up for yourself. Norinco makes some pretty decent stuff.


I would love to see price wars between type 81s and the Cz and Vz rifles, or if not wars, then stiff competition.

That idea alone makes me exited.

They probably won't be able to once production starts really rolling. If the Chinese were making F35 Lighting clones they probably wouldn't be as good as the American ones no doubt, but I'd bet my left nut they'd be somewhere in between 80-90% as good. The Chinese win against everyone when it comes to manufacturing, they'll build you 90% of the product of 1/10th of the cost.

Doug_M
02-14-2016, 08:00 AM
Applying that same logic, how is a $1800 DD AR15 $800 better than back when you could get IRG Colt 6920's for $1000 flat to your door?

When IRG Colts were $1000 my DDv7 was $1440 and yes, the fit and finish was worth the extra. Beyond that price? Personal taste and (perhaps false) bragging rights but not value.

At the end of the day, the 81 will need to be priced based on where it fits in the "want" pile of supply and demand. I am confident it will be a nice rifle. I'm not confident it will be an over $800 value. But really, no one can say until they arrive and we get a hands on look at them. I'm looking forward to that day!

Sunshine
02-14-2016, 08:12 AM
Now that the type 81 is approved, there is nothing to stop anyone from importing them. :)

RealDeckard
02-14-2016, 10:11 AM
Except the ship and cargo container and paperwork and all that. Our best case is a Marstar versus Canada Ammo price war.

Sunshine
02-14-2016, 10:19 AM
Except the ship and cargo container and paperwork and all that. Our best case is a Marstar versus Canada Ammo price war.

Why don't you just import them yourself ?

There is nothing stopping you organising the ship and cargo container and paperwork and all that. Someone has to do it !

Once you have done that you can start a price war. :)

Mobusten
02-14-2016, 01:57 PM
I'll be quite disappointed if it comes with this shiny, black plastic furniture. I want wood.

https://www.all4shooters.com/en/specials/Trade-shows-2014/IWA-2014/rifles/Norinco-NR81S/

http://i64.tinypic.com/2qu3c60.jpg

Sunshine
02-14-2016, 03:41 PM
I can't see why the stocks would not be interchangeable , the folder looks practical. I would be happy just to know they were here. :)

RealDeckard
02-14-2016, 06:14 PM
I'll be making a custom grip first thing.

Gaidheal
02-14-2016, 07:45 PM
Would the folding stocks from some of my Galils fit, I wonder?

Petamocto
02-14-2016, 10:06 PM
There are a lot of people willing to put their word on this gun being awesome and worth $1k before any comparison reviews have been made.

I'll wait for the evidence, thanks.

If it proves to be significantly better than other 7.62x39 platforms available then I'll be happy to buy one.

Mobusten
02-15-2016, 12:18 AM
*Incoming transmission from the near future*

What other 7.62x39 platforms? :(

Swampdonkey
02-15-2016, 01:57 AM
*Incoming transmission from the near future*

What other 7.62x39 platforms? :(

CZ 527. Baikal models.

Booletsnotreactwell
02-15-2016, 07:41 AM
There are a lot of people willing to put their word on this gun being awesome and worth $1k before any comparison reviews have been made.

I'll wait for the evidence, thanks.

If it proves to be significantly better than other 7.62x39 platforms available then I'll be happy to buy one.

There is evidence, a quick google search can tell you it uses a rotating bolt instead of a tilting bolt like an SKS (among many other things like videos of complete tear downs of the operating mechanisms).

The people "putting their word" are making educated observations based on information that's widely available, past historical events, etc. Yet you keep putting the blinders on to the mountains of information in this thread from a bunch of posters (like directly ignoring people replying to you) or on the internet that go against anything that supports your position.


Now I understand why that firearms org failed.

RealDeckard
02-15-2016, 08:01 AM
The long receiver is a natural fit for designing a bullpup. Forget the Keltec. Factory built with butt stock permanent and this thing is incredible. You heard it first here.

Mobusten
02-15-2016, 11:43 AM
Deleted, nevermind.

Sinbad
02-20-2016, 12:02 AM
Don't know... I won't pay a grand for an 858, and neither would I for this. These are not milsurp rifles, so won't have a milsurp price.

Scope options?

But they are Chinese so they shouldn't be expensive.I'm hoping around the M14 price.

Benito
02-20-2016, 01:39 PM
I'd love to see some polymer furniture (ideally from a maker like Magpul, but hey, we can all dream, right?) and some provisions more mounting optics, lights, etc. I'm tacticool like that.

bettercallsaul
02-20-2016, 02:16 PM
I'm interested.

tdod101
02-21-2016, 12:25 PM
I'd buy one, but not for more then $700

Lins
02-21-2016, 03:10 PM
I'm very new to weaponry and have little knowledge of ballistics, so this might be a dumb question, but would a 7.65 Mauser take 30.06 ammo? Steel-jacketed, not copper.

Foxer
02-21-2016, 03:36 PM
I'm very new to weaponry and have little knowledge of ballistics, so this might be a dumb question, but would a 7.65 Mauser take 30.06 ammo? Steel-jacketed, not copper.

You mean the 7.65 by 53? No.

Mobusten
02-21-2016, 03:47 PM
I'm very new to weaponry and have little knowledge of ballistics, so this might be a dumb question, but would a 7.65 Mauser take 30.06 ammo? Steel-jacketed, not copper.

However it will take this

https://www.canadaammo.com/product/detail/7-65x53-argentine-180gr-spbt-box-of-20/

Petamocto
02-21-2016, 06:47 PM
Now I understand why that firearms org failed.

You're not talking about the CCFR, are you?

If you are a fan of evidence-based decision making, do you want to compare membership number increases and decreases in the last six months for the CCFR vs other orgs?

I'm not going to get into a p!ssing contest over this, but I'm kind of surprised that you think the CCFR failed when membership numbers are exploding and we have a presence in all major gun and sportsman shows already.

lone-wolf
02-21-2016, 07:04 PM
I suspect it is in reference to the organization you were starting on your own before the ccfr came together.

A low blow of sorts.

firemachine69
02-21-2016, 07:45 PM
I suspect it is in reference to the organization you were starting on your own before the ccfr came together.

A low blow of sorts.


I thought he was just referencing the NFA... :)

Mark-II
02-22-2016, 08:46 AM
But they are Chinese so they shouldn't be expensive.I'm hoping around the M14 price.

I guess it depends on how many surplus parts they have tucked away. We already know that to be NR they need a newly made receiver and barrel, or just the receiver for the LMG

The M14 was mostly made from leftover parts, I thought - them now having run out of receivers.

lone-wolf
03-17-2016, 10:11 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYh6n6iy8j8

Cliff notes, an unmodified AK mags don't really work
And basically $1k price point
Preorder around the 21st of this month, later this year delivery.

Matt, sorry I bet ya to posting your own video. Good work on it though, great to see, pretty much a first look.

Mobusten
03-17-2016, 11:33 PM
Norinco can F right O if it's not coming with pinned 30 rounders.

x0ra
03-18-2016, 12:46 AM
Norinco can F right O if it's not coming with pinned 30 rounders.

it seems it will come with 2 5/30 mag.

UCSPanther
03-18-2016, 01:26 AM
If they ever bring in the LMG version, I would consider getting one.

lone-wolf
03-18-2016, 01:44 PM
Ugh, Tactical Imports is bringing it in. $1k.
I wonder what it would of been priced if marstar or canadaammo had brought it in.

Waynetheman
03-18-2016, 02:01 PM
At 1k I'll stick with the vz cz 58 type guns

Mobusten
03-18-2016, 02:29 PM
Is it exclusively through TI or something? What's stopping Canada Ammo or Marstar from bringing them in?

The Joe-Man
03-18-2016, 03:07 PM
Is it exclusively through TI or something? What's stopping Canada Ammo or Marstar from bringing them in?

Canada Ammo is working on it apparently.

Mark-II
03-18-2016, 03:29 PM
I'm not really digging the parkerized finish. Commie guns should be blued :)

Booletsnotreactwell
03-20-2016, 07:57 AM
Gotta remember that's their sample they got many years ago and submitted to the Royal Canadian disarmament police labs, many things may have changed. For example the reviews on the only American Type 81 from 1989 shows a gun that looks a little different.


I gotta say I want it but having to go through TI is a tough one. Look at what they did with the SG rifles, took pre-orders, took way longer to bring them in than anybody else and they were more expensive than everybody else.

Canada Ammo is no chicken shit either, they do sizable enough orders that they can command certain features or configurations in their respective production runs. I don't think there is a sole supplier with Chinese guns, it's not like a brand or something. You can get a Polytech made one, Norinco, random Chinese mystery factory, etc...

Personally looking for the better plastic furniture like what was posted in CanAms threads about what the gun would look like today and having it take AK mags without modification. Having the gun take AK mags is a big selling feature, I mean if any variant brought in by anybody didn't take it I'd still buy it but if say CanAms version took AK mags without mods and TI's did not, CanAm it is.



This should be a good SHTF gun and something I can take coyote hunting (depending on caliber restrictions) to scare the Ontario Outdoorsmen types.

Mark-II
03-20-2016, 08:20 AM
Best bet is to not be an early adopter. Unless the dollar completely tanks, I'd bet on someone else bringing them in either for less, or with better furniture and finish.

No LMG in the first batch anyway lol

They say Q3 for delivery, so bet on a year at least before the first lot even arrives.

DILLIGAF
03-20-2016, 02:57 PM
This rifle is not even in country, and yet it has collected a dedicated cadre of haters.

Yup, I find it funny people judge things they havent shot or handled. lol...

I will place my pre-order tomorow and hope for the best... Will make a great addition to my 7.62X39 rifle family.

RealDeckard
03-20-2016, 04:03 PM
But....what if the quality is on par with Para? EPIC D meltdown.

Booletsnotreactwell
03-21-2016, 09:16 AM
Well now that we know it's Polytech, I have little doubts that the quality will be as good as you need it to be on a combloc pattern rifle.

I thought about per-ordering it for shits anyway and offloading it on the EE for 50% more than I paid for it. Then I realized I could use that money on better investments that won't potentially take a year to complete.


The whole "iffy" thing on the AK mags, not knowing exactly what the final product will look like (furniture/fit & finish) and the fact that it's through TI is making me pass.

They really did a number on their rep with the SG rifle pre-orders, thankfully I didn't bite on that one but I almost did. They did however get me on some extremely expensive magazines that I ended up buying more of off another distributor for almost half the price.


I want this rifle bad but yea I'll wait this one out, see what competition does.

DILLIGAF
03-21-2016, 09:57 AM
I find it shifty to pay 100% on a pre-order that has no set delivery dates.

Spectre
03-21-2016, 12:08 PM
I'm in the market, but in no rush. I am partial to the wood over plastic furniture, but as well, full up front with a guess-timated delivery date - I will wait and see what others can offer. I can't see this being a limited production rifle by any means.

RealDeckard
03-21-2016, 01:37 PM
I find it shifty to pay 100% on a pre-order that has no set delivery dates.

Like those with RPDs. I was once burned by another dealer with a deposit paid on something that never came after years. I had to ask for a refund. There were never any comms one way or another. This sounds almost like crowd funding to purchase the shipment. Maybe not.

Doug_M
03-21-2016, 01:53 PM
This sounds almost like crowd funding to purchase the shipment. Maybe not.

That's what I was thinking too.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

The Joe-Man
03-21-2016, 03:28 PM
This is a really cool looking rifle and one that I would definitely like to own one day but I'm with most people here. I'm not putting 100% down for something that's coming "sometime this year" while only seeing the prototype which "will have changes to it".

Mark-II
03-21-2016, 06:01 PM
And TI is claiming an exclusive partnership to distribute this.

With the corporate commies of China. Riiiiight lol

Waiting for Marstar

Lee Enfield
03-21-2016, 08:32 PM
Like those with RPDs. I was once burned by another dealer with a deposit paid on something that never came after years. I had to ask for a refund. There were never any comms one way or another. This sounds almost like crowd funding to purchase the shipment. Maybe not.

Crowd funding..that is FUNNY!

Booletsnotreactwell
03-21-2016, 09:18 PM
Yea * that, 100% up front... Yea okay. Not that I can't handle it but in this day and age where massive loans can be had easily, definitively sounds like crowd funding or a way of putting all the risk on the buyers instead of the business.

And as another guy said, there's no such thing as "exclusive" with the Chinese. They sell human organs in China for the right price.


The price seems about right for a first run pre-order, though I have little doubts the price will eventually come down on these. The Chinese pump out fresh Type-56 rifles for $500 according to various reports on world arms trading.

Sinbad
03-24-2016, 04:28 PM
A lot of negativity in this thread. A new rifle to Canada,how can this be bad?

You want a SKS or a CZ go buy one.You don't want to put up 100% there's a payment plan or just don't buy one.

Who cares if they don't take AK mags.The mag's are only $29 anyway chrome Barrel,shoots cheap ammo.When our dollars in the sewer 1k no big deal, customize a SKS and your there anyway and I've never seen a SKS with a after market chassis that wasn't front heavy.

I like CZ's think I'll have both and compare. I'm all over it. If I don't like it then I sell it.With only 1000 coming in on the first shipment shouldn't be hard.

Take advantage of the stuff their letting have now because tomorrow they may be after whatever the flavor of the day is, Mini,Tavor,Kriss,M 14, the list goes on and on. Enjoy

Sinbad
03-24-2016, 04:33 PM
somehow double posted.Deleted

Foxer
03-24-2016, 06:29 PM
A lot of negativity in this thread. A new rifle to Canada,how can this be bad?

You want a SKS or a CZ go buy one.You don't want to put up 100% there's a payment plan or just don't buy one.

Who cares if they don't take AK mags.The mag's are only $29 anyway chrome Barrel,shoots cheap ammo.When our dollars in the sewer 1k no big deal, customize a SKS and your there anyway and I've never seen a SKS with a after market chassis that wasn't front heavy.

I like CZ's think I'll have both and compare. I'm all over it. If I don't like it then I sell it.With only 1000 coming in on the first shipment shouldn't be hard.

Take advantage of the stuff their letting have now because tomorrow they may be after whatever the flavor of the day is, Mini,Tavor,Kriss,M 14, the list goes on and on. Enjoy

Compelling argument.

M39
03-25-2016, 10:26 AM
If you already have a vz58, what would be the point of buying this rifles? It looks kinda the same and shoots the same ammo. And more than likely will be a less of a rifle coming from China.

Mobusten
03-25-2016, 10:32 AM
If you already have a vz58, what would be the point of buying this rifles? It looks kinda the same and shoots the same ammo. And more than likely will be a less of a rifle coming from China.

But it's not the same... You can have more than one semi auto x39 and enjoy them both...

M39
03-25-2016, 10:51 AM
But it's not the same... You can have more than one semi auto x39 and enjoy them both...

Good point, variety if for rich people so I will stick with 4 sks and 1 vz58. Wife has me on a budget no more rifles. ��

lone-wolf
03-25-2016, 10:56 AM
Good point, variety if for rich people so I will stick with 4 sks and 1 vz58. Wife has me on a budget no more rifles. ��

lol

DILLIGAF
03-25-2016, 11:20 AM
Good point, variety if for rich people so I will stick with 4 sks and 1 vz58. Wife has me on a budget no more rifles. ��

WoW, Varerity is because I like collecting different riffles in X39... SKS's are P.O.S and yet I have a nice Izzy and a SKS-D. The Vz858 is far superior... And yet I enjoy shooting my Rasheed and Vz52/57 more.

I guess some people dont get how fun different guns are...

Gaidheal
03-25-2016, 11:38 AM
But it's not the same... You can have more than one semi auto x39 and enjoy them both...

Indeed - I like my SKS's but also really like my VZ 52/57. Heavy, but good.

murph83
03-25-2016, 12:48 PM
It looks scary to the anti gun folk, the government is letting us have it...buy it if you can afford it!!! Its non restricted....what type 81?

Mobusten
03-25-2016, 05:47 PM
The only thing I'm not too sure about is that folding stock. That metal on the top is gonna be damn cold on a cheek in the wintertime.

MitchSteel
03-27-2016, 09:09 PM
Looks like a pretty cool unit.Although I own 2 58's , I wouldn't mind trying this out.
They appear to be well built, simple enough......one concern is parts availability.
Otherwise, a cool retro weapon.

M39
03-27-2016, 09:14 PM
WoW, Varerity is because I like collecting different riffles in X39... SKS's are P.O.S and yet I have a nice Izzy and a SKS-D. The Vz858 is far superior... And yet I enjoy shooting my Rasheed and Vz52/57 more.

I guess some people dont get how fun different guns are...

I personally like the little bigger rifles. Svt-40, Mosin, 1903 Springfield.

Squinty
04-03-2016, 09:40 AM
Greedy capitalists steep of overcharging. one thousand rubles too much cost for five hundred ruble of rifle.

Hornychief
04-03-2016, 06:39 PM
I agree. If it was cheaper id be on board but not at a $1000 same reason i dont own vz

Booletsnotreactwell
04-10-2016, 06:45 PM
I find it hilarious how some compare guns, like the T81 thread on CGN is a lot like this one. Everything is an SKS... It's an SKS that takes AK mags, no it's a CZ58 that takes AK mags but costs more but that's also just an expensive SKS. No it's inferior to an SKS because an SKS-D costs $300, shoots x39 and has mags.... Better yet, an SKS is $200 and you're limited to 5rds so taking mags means SFA and shoots the same x39 so it's a $1000 SKS.


That's how a freaken monkeys brain would make comparisons, like saying a Prius is the same thing as a Corolla, yo seats 5, has four wheels like a Corolla and you can't drive over 100 legally anyway (like the capacity argument when making comparisons, oh double stack pistols have no advantage because you can't legally have more than 10rds).


No mention of the operating mechanisms, the differences between failing block, tilting block, rotating bolt, short/long stroke gas operation, weight distribution, etc... I really question how many people actually know what's happening in their gun or they just pull the trigger and boom booms come out. I guess it's just like a car, plenty of people drive those and don't have the first clue as to how they work but shit were on a gun enthusiast board.

lone-wolf
04-10-2016, 06:56 PM
who cares how the gas system works if the ergonomics and cartridge is the same?

DILLIGAF
04-10-2016, 07:01 PM
I have 5 SKS's :pot:

https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xtp1/v/t1.0-9/12118808_10153754415123552_5969291412406261520_n.j pg?oh=bee1514556901a8ed8d3cbec970da89d&oe=57BC2D67

lone-wolf
04-10-2016, 07:05 PM
I have 5 SKS's :pot:

https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xtp1/v/t1.0-9/12118808_10153754415123552_5969291412406261520_n.j pg?oh=bee1514556901a8ed8d3cbec970da89d&oe=57BC2D67

Which one is superior and worth more due to it's method of bolt lock up?

DILLIGAF
04-10-2016, 07:12 PM
The Vz52/57 is the coolest and best built of the bunch. You can tell lots of time and effort when into the design. The CZ858 is superior to all of them.

The Vz is 1K
The Rasheed is 1K
The Vz 52/57 is 1K
SKS-D rates are now in the 500$ range ( unless you buy the SKS-KD bubbafied, modern day masterpiece for 800$ )
Dropping 1K on the Type 81 is no big deal.

Once I get my hands on one I will do a side by side with the Cz858

Gaidheal
04-10-2016, 07:20 PM
52/57's are worth 1k these days?

DILLIGAF
04-10-2016, 07:23 PM
#'s matching no XXX on the stock with 3 mags, complete cleaning kit in the butt and correct sling. I wouldn't sell mine for less than 1200 lol... Actually I will never sell it.

Beat up forced matched ones are 750+ now with no cleaning kit.

Booletsnotreactwell
04-10-2016, 09:20 PM
Every single rifle I have is an SKS.

Mark-II
04-11-2016, 06:01 AM
My Mosin is an SVD :)

....which is an AK and since Kalasnikov once looked at an SKS in 1946 it's an SKS.

M39
04-14-2016, 05:53 PM
Every single rifle I have is an SKS.

Pics if you don't mind sharing. Sks is one of my top rifles.

TDC
04-14-2016, 06:12 PM
who cares how the gas system works if the ergonomics and cartridge is the same?

The difference between gas systems such as the long stroke vs short stroke has a lot to do with felt recoil and how the rifle reacts. It's also a weight related issue as long strong systems are usually heavier.

Some people are looking at performance over looks or cost, and the type 81 offers nothing over an 858/58. Being comparable in price makes it even less appealing as does the increased weight, lack of available magazines, fixed flash hider, difficulty in mounting optics(same goes for 858/58) and as of yet no parts support. I don't see the appeal but more options are never a bad thing.

TDC

DILLIGAF
04-14-2016, 06:27 PM
I just want one to Add to the collection :-) and it will make a Kick ass picture... LOL...

And its something Americans cant get. I dont see the need to mount optics to these cheap guns. If I want to play dress up I use a Black rifle.

But I have yet to order one since no real pictures exist of the actual production Type 81 and they aren't even built yet.

M39
04-14-2016, 08:13 PM
I just want one to Add to the collection :-) and it will make a Kick ass picture... LOL...

And its something Americans cant get. I dont see the need to mount optics to these cheap guns. If I want to play dress up I use a Black rifle.

But I have yet to order one since no real pictures exist of the actual production Type 81 and they aren't even built yet.

Good thinkin

Mobusten
04-14-2016, 09:25 PM
The difference between gas systems such as the long stroke vs short stroke has a lot to do with felt recoil and how the rifle reacts. It's also a weight related issue as long strong systems are usually heavier.

Some people are looking at performance over looks or cost, and the type 81 offers nothing over an 858/58. Being comparable in price makes it even less appealing as does the increased weight, lack of available magazines, fixed flash hider, difficulty in mounting optics(same goes for 858/58) and as of yet no parts support. I don't see the appeal but more options are never a bad thing.

TDC

I can't speak for the recoil of a gun I've never even handled, but I'm not worried about the weight. According to the TI page it weighs 7.5 lbs empty. After a little searching online, the XCR-L keymod weighs about 7.25 lbs empty(RA website only mentions the weight with light barrel but not keymod upper at 7.5). I've never had any problems with the weight of a loaded keymod XCR with an optic and light, so considering the T81 doesn't really have scope/light options(which I also don't mind), the weight shouldn't be a burden. I think the extra pound it has over the CZ 858 will only help with recoil.

I'm optimistic for this rifle, I like the look of the stock setup and wouldn't plan on changing anything, but I've not even handled one yet so we'll find out later I guess. I never thought the CZ 858 or VZ 58 would leave a bad taste in my mouth but they both did and both were reliability issues I could not get past, so who knows. I'm holding off on the pre-order for now. Fingers crossed that these turn out to be gems.

Ztunelover
04-15-2016, 04:57 PM
I'm interested to see how this performs compared to the cz858/vz58. Then I can make my decision on whether this is worth it. 1k for a norc seems to be a steep price.

TDC
04-15-2016, 06:22 PM
I can't speak for the recoil of a gun I've never even handled, but I'm not worried about the weight. According to the TI page it weighs 7.5 lbs empty. After a little searching online, the XCR-L keymod weighs about 7.25 lbs empty(RA website only mentions the weight with light barrel but not keymod upper at 7.5). I've never had any problems with the weight of a loaded keymod XCR with an optic and light, so considering the T81 doesn't really have scope/light options(which I also don't mind), the weight shouldn't be a burden. I think the extra pound it has over the CZ 858 will only help with recoil.

I'm optimistic for this rifle, I like the look of the stock setup and wouldn't plan on changing anything, but I've not even handled one yet so we'll find out later I guess. I never thought the CZ 858 or VZ 58 would leave a bad taste in my mouth but they both did and both were reliability issues I could not get past, so who knows. I'm holding off on the pre-order for now. Fingers crossed that these turn out to be gems.

I'm guessing you don't walk the back forty or compete with your rifles. That extra pound adds up fast to a painful and exhausting time with zero benefit. I see absolutely nothing in the type 81 that makes it equal to or better than an 858/58. Recoil management can be achieved by a well designed break, and not weigh a pound. The type 81 doesn't afford you that option. Norinco isn't exactly high quality either. Maybe I'm in the minority here but I'm not one to buy guns as toys or collectibles. I buy tools for specific jobs/purposes, and I don't need another hammer.

TDC

Mobusten
04-15-2016, 06:47 PM
I'm guessing you don't walk the back forty or compete with your rifles. That extra pound adds up fast to a painful and exhausting time with zero benefit. I see absolutely nothing in the type 81 that makes it equal to or better than an 858/58. Recoil management can be achieved by a well designed break, and not weigh a pound. The type 81 doesn't afford you that option. Norinco isn't exactly high quality either. Maybe I'm in the minority here but I'm not one to buy guns as toys or collectibles. I buy tools for specific jobs/purposes, and I don't need another hammer.

TDC

Maybe I'm in the minority here, but being in shape, I don't become exhausted carrying around 7.5 lbs of rifle all day.

And you can never have too many hammers :Bang head:

Gaidheal
04-15-2016, 08:03 PM
Maybe I'm in the minority here, but being in shape, I don't become exhausted carrying around 7.5 lbs of rifle all day.

And you can never have too many hammers :Bang head:

I'm 100 pounds overweight ATM and can ride a bike to work and home - 32 km round trip. Not once - but every day of the week. anyone boo-hoos over the weight of a gun is a bitch, plain and simple. Goes double for anyone who would rather carry a POS AR over a real gun like an FN

Doug_M
04-15-2016, 08:37 PM
I'm 100 pounds overweight ATM and can ride a bike to work and home - 32 km round trip. Not once - but every day of the week. anyone boo-hoos over the weight of a gun is a bitch, plain and simple. Goes double for anyone who would rather carry a POS AR over a real gun like an FN

I was going to say I remember schlepping a C1 around the "back forty" and not having a problem, and that thing is at least 9 pounds. On the other hand when we first got the C7 I have to admit the only thing I liked about it (at the time) was the reduced weight.

Foxer
04-15-2016, 08:49 PM
I'm 100 pounds overweight ATM and can ride a bike to work and home - 32 km round trip. Not once - but every day of the week. anyone boo-hoos over the weight of a gun is a bitch, plain and simple. Goes double for anyone who would rather carry a POS AR over a real gun like an FN

Well, it's probably unfair to say anyone who bitches about weight is a bitch :) Eventually they do get too heavy to be comfortable.

But - 7.5 lbs is less than a scoped rem 700 weighs, and i've hiked a lot of miles with that and i'm not exactly in stellar shape, and a lot of other hunters have too. I think it would be more than fair to say that anyone with physical limits that would make it uncomfortable to carry a 7.5 lb rifle will probably be unable to walk very far at all with ANY rifle. That's a pretty comfortable carry weight wise.

Gaidheal
04-15-2016, 10:16 PM
Bah. If I can ride 32km in a day or jog 3-5 km daily then the difference between a 7 pound gun and an 11 pound gun is moot.

HTFU or get your woman to carry it for you.

bettercallsaul
04-16-2016, 07:33 AM
Bah. If I can ride 32km in a day or jog 3-5 km daily then the difference between a 7 pound gun and an 11 pound gun is moot.


It comes down to how long you have to schlep it. Maybe you want the 7 pound gun so you can carry 4 more pounds of ammo or food. Maybe you're just out for a day of hunting and that doesn't matter as much.

Petamocto
04-16-2016, 12:05 PM
... anyone boo-hoos over the weight of a gun is a bitch, plain and simple. Goes double for anyone who would rather carry a POS AR over a real gun like an FN

Consider me a b!tch then. Weight matters when things get added up over and over and over. Not caring about a couple pounds on the rifle and a couple pounds on a radio and a couple pounds on a rucksack and a couple pounds on the vest and a couple pounds on the plate armour ends up being dozens of extra pounds to carry everywhere. No thanks.

I'll also happily take a modern AR over a 60s' FN in battle any day. Getting rounds on target from 200m while running around and getting shot at is very different than getting rounds on target in a peaceful range environment. Even the world's best soldiers would be hard pressed to get rapid rate 7.62mm rounds on target with a 10 pound rifle under contact, but the same troops would be much more accurate, confident, and lethal with a 7 pound AR shooting 5.56mm.

Mobusten
04-16-2016, 03:08 PM
In the context of this thread, a 7.5 lb Type 81 is not overweight.

RealDeckard
04-16-2016, 04:22 PM
I never cared much about the weight while in the service. I appreciated the C7 for its FA capability more than anything. I recall thinking that every little dirtbag adversary had an AK so it was about time.

Petamocto
04-17-2016, 08:46 AM
In the context of this thread, a 7.5 lb Type 81 is not overweight.

True, but that's bare with irons. You can get a lighter weight AR with optics and other goodies on it for under that, though.

Mag limits don't make the ammo issue as much of a deal as it would otherwise be, but if both of these had a 30 round mag you'd notice it that much more.

UCSPanther
04-17-2016, 11:42 AM
You don't know "heavy" until you have handled any of the older milsurp battle rifles. Some of those, like the M1917 enfield are close to 10 pounds in weight.

Petamocto
04-17-2016, 04:31 PM
You don't know "heavy" until you have handled any of the older milsurp battle rifles...

Actually, if we're measuring things here, you don't know heavy until you carry a rifle and a secondary weapon system like a mortar or anti-armour tube.

dancam
04-17-2016, 04:59 PM
Lol, i never had a problem with a gun being heavy except once. I borrowed my brothers gun. It was a .22-250 remington 700 with a heavy barrel and longer than normal. 28 or 29 inches. He also had a huge heavy scope on it. I think it was 9.5 pounds total. I had gone hunting with it before and it was always fine but i shot a coyote with it and had to walk 3/4 of a mile one way to get it through snow that was more than knee deep. Not quite waist deep, about half way between my knees and waist. He had taken the sling off. I was hating that gun by the time i got back, lol. But my gun with no sling would have sucked too i bet.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

TDC
04-17-2016, 05:31 PM
Maybe I'm in the minority here, but being in shape, I don't become exhausted carrying around 7.5 lbs of rifle all day.

And you can never have too many hammers :Bang head:

Why wouldn't you stack the deck in your favour? The type81 offers and does nothing better than a 858/58, so why carry the extra pound of weight?


I'm 100 pounds overweight ATM and can ride a bike to work and home - 32 km round trip. Not once - but every day of the week. anyone boo-hoos over the weight of a gun is a bitch, plain and simple. Goes double for anyone who would rather carry a POS AR over a real gun like an FN

I'm sure you drive a large pickup with oversized tires, blacked out of course and it sports a metal militia sticker and/or a monster energy drink sticker am I right?

You've completely missed the point and are clearly stronger than you are smarter. Like I posted above there is no reason why you wouldn't or shouldn't stack the deck in your favour by reducing the size and weight of your gear. Nowhere did I say the 7.5 lbs was too much to carry. What I am saying is that for the extra pound in weight you are gaining absolutely nothing that benefits performance or reliability. Regardless of ones physical ability it doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand that the person carrying the least amount of weight will be less fatigued and faster in the field than the guy with more weight. Maybe yourself and some others haven't noticed but the military and even those who climb mountains or do endurance races are always seeking lighter gear; some would call that a clue. Have a look at any of the professional instructors and their gear. All of them are after smaller and lighter kit. Same reason we dumped the FAL and 7.62x51 for lighter AR's and 5.56x45. The ability to carry more critical gear or simply more ammo and water is a net gain, and I will add that 5.56x45 is very capable terminally. Contrary to what the old steel and woodstock crowd purport to be fact, larger and heavier wood/steel rifles are not superior and nor is 7.62x51.

TDC

Doug_M
04-17-2016, 06:42 PM
Same reason we dumped the FAL and 7.62x51 for lighter AR's and 5.56x45. The ability to carry more critical gear or simply more ammo and water is a net gain, and I will add that 5.56x45 is very capable terminally. Contrary to what the old steel and woodstock crowd purport to be fact, larger and heavier wood/steel rifles are not superior and nor is 7.62x51.

TDC

Don't rewrite history "we" did no such thing. NATO was standardized on 7.62 and the Americans on their own dumped it for the M16 in 5.56. Essentially forcing the rest of NATO to abandon 7.62 in favour of 5.56 which we all begrudgingly did. After the fact NATO countries realized the benefit, but not before. At the time this occurred the threat was WWIII which was going to be fought in Europe. The 7.62 was thought to be a better round for that theatre and warfare type than 5.56. NATO nations were pissed at the Americans for switching to 5.56.

Mark-II
04-17-2016, 07:38 PM
Yes... 5.56 is just as terminally capable on cardboard and gongs as 7.62 is....

Booletsnotreactwell
04-17-2016, 11:54 PM
If you ask me, in a practical sense weight is everything and nothing at the same time and here's why.

If you're heading into the shit and you need maximum everything, maximum water, maximum ammo, maximum gun, maximum armor, maximum food, maximum whatever then yea shaving every oz off to have more of the above is paramount. People heading into the shit are loaded with gear pretty much to the limit of what they can all physically carry while still being able to perform (that means running/walking/jogging 20+miles in 40 degree weather). They just can't carry anymore without the load starting to negatively impact their capabilities and even that's debatable as a lot of those types of people do complain that they are excessively weighted down with equipment. We'll call this situation "maximum weight".

In the civilian world, hunting, shooting shit in the back forty and even every single feasible armed defense scenario you won't be in any situation where you'll be carrying close to "maximum weight". So if you ask me, the said weight of the firearm isn't of utmost importance until it gets so heavy that it's actually diminishing the capabilities of the firearm. Once you start getting over the 12lb mark, the "swing time" of your gun starts to show and you just cant point it, snap shoot it, etc as fast as a 6lb gun but slicing hairs over 1.1lbs isn't of as much importance or a deal breaker to me in these scenarios.


Now I don't want to take on extra weight for nothing but in the case of this particular firearm I don't see it as nothing. Time will tell, we'll have to wait until we actually get hands on with the said firearms but if Polytech can hold the same quality that it did in 1989 than you all might be in for a surprise. There are other differences besides long vs short stroke piston, the VZ rifles are striker fired and have had issues with bent strikers, the VZ trigger gremlin is a serious problem, etc... So if the T81 with it's more traditional hammer & pin trigger system is rock solid, that and the short stroke rotating bolt design, that's huge advantages over a mag fed SKS or VZ58 even for the 1K price tag, and if it has 1989 Polytech quality, then it's AK contender worthy.

Foxer
04-18-2016, 08:35 AM
Yes... 5.56 is just as terminally capable on cardboard and gongs as 7.62 is....

That may well be true, but what happens if one day you encounter a sheet of zombie cardboard?!?! The corrugated stuff. THEN you'll be happy you had the extra hitting power of 7.62!

Mark-II
04-18-2016, 12:44 PM
That may well be true, but what happens if one day you encounter a sheet of zombie cardboard?!?! The corrugated stuff. THEN you'll be happy you had the extra hitting power of 7.62!

Damn your impeccable logic....

Good think I've got both luminum/tupperware and steel/walnut stuff. I'm set!

Gaidheal
04-18-2016, 01:08 PM
I'm sure you drive a large pickup with oversized tires, blacked out of course and it sports a metal militia sticker and/or a monster energy drink sticker am I right?

Actually it's a Jeep. Add it has a two-story tent. You seem to have a very limited imagination along with your other issues.

http://smithfieldaviation.ca/uploads/labrador-sm.jpg



You've completely missed the point and are clearly stronger than you are smarter. Like I posted above there is no reason why you wouldn't or shouldn't stack the deck in your favour by reducing the size and weight of your gear. Nowhere did I say the 7.5 lbs was too much to carry. What I am saying is that for the extra pound in weight you are gaining absolutely nothing that benefits performance or reliability. Regardless of ones physical ability it doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand that the person carrying the least amount of weight will be less fatigued and faster in the field than the guy with more weight. Maybe yourself and some others haven't noticed but the military and even those who climb mountains or do endurance races are always seeking lighter gear; some would call that a clue. Have a look at any of the professional instructors and their gear. All of them are after smaller and lighter kit. Same reason we dumped the FAL and 7.62x51 for lighter AR's and 5.56x45. The ability to carry more critical gear or simply more ammo and water is a net gain, and I will add that 5.56x45 is very capable terminally. Contrary to what the old steel and woodstock crowd purport to be fact, larger and heavier wood/steel rifles are not superior and nor is 7.62x51.


Do you really take yourself that seriously?

:slap:

Foxer
04-18-2016, 01:43 PM
Damn your impeccable logic....

Good think I've got both luminum/tupperware and steel/walnut stuff. I'm set!

There you go. It is the prepared mind that will survive the upcoming cardboard zombie apocalypse!

Foxer
04-18-2016, 01:54 PM
It occurs to me that it might be worth mentioning that I don't think anyone's planning on going to war with these anytime soon, or being forced to hike huge distances where weight is that much of a concern. I would imagine we could have all kinds of discussions about which gun is best for that kind of thing, and it might not be any of the ones mentioned so far. I would further imagine that if we WERE going to war, someone else would likely be making that decision for us :)

I think people are looking at this because they like it and they think it'll be fun to shoot. I doubt 'extra gear' is much of a consideration. I think some people might just like that particular gun and enjoy shooting it, and its great that the option is there and people should be encouraging others to enjoy a firearm that 'speaks' to them for whatever reason. The more diversity in firearms we have, the better off we are as a community and the harder it is for the anti's to limit us in the future.

In short - we should revel in our differences as much as our similarities :) There is no 'one gun' that suits all of us after all.

TDC
04-19-2016, 03:28 PM
Actually it's a Jeep. Add it has a two-story tent. You seem to have a very limited imagination along with your other issues.

http://smithfieldaviation.ca/uploads/labrador-sm.jpg




Do you really take yourself that seriously?

:slap:

Nice jeep, I like the setup. I had you pegged all wrong. I don't take myself seriously but I do take facts and data seriously. 7.62x51 is not terminally superior to 5.56x45.


It occurs to me that it might be worth mentioning that I don't think anyone's planning on going to war with these anytime soon, or being forced to hike huge distances where weight is that much of a concern. I would imagine we could have all kinds of discussions about which gun is best for that kind of thing, and it might not be any of the ones mentioned so far. I would further imagine that if we WERE going to war, someone else would likely be making that decision for us :)

I think people are looking at this because they like it and they think it'll be fun to shoot. I doubt 'extra gear' is much of a consideration. I think some people might just like that particular gun and enjoy shooting it, and its great that the option is there and people should be encouraging others to enjoy a firearm that 'speaks' to them for whatever reason. The more diversity in firearms we have, the better off we are as a community and the harder it is for the anti's to limit us in the future.

In short - we should revel in our differences as much as our similarities :) There is no 'one gun' that suits all of us after all.

I agree that many will not be humping this rifle any great distances, but the fact remains that the extra weight is of no value and a negative when it comes to carrying or swinging the rifle. Not to mention the other less than desirable attributes. From a competitive point of view this rifle offers nothing great. From the service rifle point of view(the intended role not the discipline) this rifle is very low on the scale.

TDC

Doug_M
04-19-2016, 03:59 PM
7.62x51 is not terminally superior to 5.56x45.

Nothing is as black and white as that. 7.62 still has a valid use in war as proven by the US dusting off some M14s for use and Afghanistan as well as Canada's JTF2 dusting off some C1's. And let's not forget why cartridges like 6.8SPC and 300 Blk were developed. None of those are replacing 5.56, but clearly 5.56 is not up to the task in certain circumstances.

Foxer
04-19-2016, 10:22 PM
I agree that many will not be humping this rifle any great distances, but the fact remains that the extra weight is of no value and a negative when it comes to carrying or swinging the rifle.I don't know that you can make that statement. A rifle that fit me better would definitely be superior to one that didn't, even if it weighed a little more. How can you tell which one is a better fit for me? And extra weight does mean reduced recoil. You might argue that the recoil difference is small given the small difference in weight, but then you'd also be arguing the weight difference wasn't very much either :)

I think at best you might argue that on average for a majority of people it's not necessarily a better gun, but for many it is. And even then, i don't know that even THAT is true. Some guns are just more enjoyable to shoot, for a variety of reasons, i don't think you can judge them on weight alone. I think you're being a little bit black and white with your assertions.

As to the cartridges lethality - suffice to say that that's a more complex issue as well :) and there are times when a 7.62 is preferable.

Mark-II
04-20-2016, 10:52 AM
And bigger gun makes bigger fun, as anyone with a .50(anything) will tell you :P

TDC
04-21-2016, 03:27 PM
It occurs to me that it might be worth mentioning that I don't think anyone's planning on going to war with these anytime soon, or being forced to hike huge distances where weight is that much of a concern. I would imagine we could have all kinds of discussions about which gun is best for that kind of thing, and it might not be any of the ones mentioned so far. I would further imagine that if we WERE going to war, someone else would likely be making that decision for us :)

I think people are looking at this because they like it and they think it'll be fun to shoot. I doubt 'extra gear' is much of a consideration. I think some people might just like that particular gun and enjoy shooting it, and its great that the option is there and people should be encouraging others to enjoy a firearm that 'speaks' to them for whatever reason. The more diversity in firearms we have, the better off we are as a community and the harder it is for the anti's to limit us in the future.

In short - we should revel in our differences as much as our similarities :) There is no 'one gun' that suits all of us after all.

If shooting from the bench is what people are interested in and it seems that is the case. Then the type 81 or any other service rifle for that matter are the wrong tools for the job. Short of zeroing the irons/optic a service rifle does not belong on the bench, nor are they suitable for shooting tiny groups. If you're looking at the type 81 for 3 gun or similar events then it offers nothing special and absolutely nothing over a 58/858. As you say it may be simply personal preference in which case it cannot be argued one way or the other.


Nothing is as black and white as that. 7.62 still has a valid use in war as proven by the US dusting off some M14s for use and Afghanistan as well as Canada's JTF2 dusting off some C1's. And let's not forget why cartridges like 6.8SPC and 300 Blk were developed. None of those are replacing 5.56, but clearly 5.56 is not up to the task in certain circumstances.

The 300 blackout cartridge was designed specifically for suppressed use without sacrificing the ability to use supersonic ammo(with or without a suppressor) in a short barrel rifle. The M14 was pulled from the grave for specific DMR roles at extended ranges where larger projectiles retain their energy better at further distances. They're use was out of necessity not preference. There is no perfect calibre for all roles but the 5.56 does a good job for the role it was intended and more.


I don't know that you can make that statement. A rifle that fit me better would definitely be superior to one that didn't, even if it weighed a little more. How can you tell which one is a better fit for me? And extra weight does mean reduced recoil. You might argue that the recoil difference is small given the small difference in weight, but then you'd also be arguing the weight difference wasn't very much either :)

I think at best you might argue that on average for a majority of people it's not necessarily a better gun, but for many it is. And even then, i don't know that even THAT is true. Some guns are just more enjoyable to shoot, for a variety of reasons, i don't think you can judge them on weight alone. I think you're being a little bit black and white with your assertions.

As to the cartridges lethality - suffice to say that that's a more complex issue as well :) and there are times when a 7.62 is preferable.

Seeing as the type 81 has a fixed LOP folder(or fixed stock) much the same as the 58/858 then I would say it doesn't fit any better or worse. At least with the 58/858 you have the option of using an M4 type tele stock. The extra weight reduces recoil for sure but a good comp/brake would achieve far better recoil reduction without the added weight, which is not an option on the type 81. Add in the extra weight of steel AK mags vs aluminum 58/858 mags and as of yet the absent factory and aftermarket support and the type 81 is a flop.

TDC

Doug_M
04-21-2016, 06:49 PM
The 300 blackout cartridge was designed specifically for suppressed use without sacrificing the ability to use supersonic ammo(with or without a suppressor) in a short barrel rifle. The M14 was pulled from the grave for specific DMR roles at extended ranges where larger projectiles retain their energy better at further distances. They're use was out of necessity not preference. There is no perfect calibre for all roles but the 5.56 does a good job for the role it was intended and more.

Really? You'd make a good politician! Fact is in certain circumstances 7.62 is preferred over 5.56. Also larger calibres (than 5.56) were tested due to experiences in Afghanistan where 5.56 was not stopping the taliban fighters (sometimes hopped up on drugs).

7.62 NATO ammunition is terminally superior to 5.56 NATO ammunition. NATO took this into account in its doctrine for a European war against the Warsaw Pact. Canadian soldiers (like me) were instructed on the difference when we transitioned. We were taught that where the 7.62 would likely be terminal, the 5.56 would likely wound but that that wounding was advantageous as it would mean two or three enemy soldiers taken out of the battle (1 wounded, 1 or 2 to attend to him).

I suppose you know better than NATO and the Canadian Army though. I'm sure you'll tell me the only difference between the two calibres is effective range.

Foxer
04-22-2016, 01:47 AM
If shooting from the bench is what people are interested in and it seems that is the case. Then the type 81 or any other service rifle for that matter are the wrong tools for the job. Short of zeroing the irons/optic a service rifle does not belong on the bench, nor are they suitable for shooting tiny groups. If you're looking at the type 81 for 3 gun or similar events then it offers nothing special and absolutely nothing over a 58/858. As you say it may be simply personal preference in which case it cannot be argued one way or the other.. It's a perfectly good 'bench' gun for those who're into it. Also sounds like fun for those who like target plinking in the woods. And personal preference is the only factor that counts in the civvie market. None of us are buying guns to go to war with, we're buying guns we like to shoot. It would be like saying to you BOTH of those guns are stupid because people should only shoot shotguns.

To listen to you, there should be one kind of gun for each type and that's it. This is the best pistol - no other is allowed. This is the best rifle, all others are of no value, etc. I also own a lot of knives, but i would imagine in your world there should only be one kind of pocket knife. I've owned many cars and trucks, but in your world i'm sure there's just one car, just one truck, etc.

It is quite apparent that you're not really qualified to speak on the subject. you lack a basic understanding of it. Maybe if you were picking one gun for the military to use you might have some useful opinion, but this is the civillian market.


Seeing as the type 81 has a fixed LOP folder(or fixed stock) much the same as the 58/858 then I would say it doesn't fit any better or worse. Man - you really don't understand guns much at all do you. I guarantee you it's a different fit, and for some people they'll prefer one or the other. As if all guns with the same LOP fit the same. Yeash. The weight and balance will be different too, and some will prefer one or the other. Some will prefer one set of controls over another. Some will find the grip fits better on one than another. People will have preferences. There is no such thing as 'one gun is best for all'. In fact it goes against pretty much everything our firearms culture stands for.

You should run for the ndp. They're big on only having 3 or 4 guns that everyone has to use.

Expand your horizons. Dare to dream that there might be more than one gun in the world that's worth shooting just because you think it's fun to shoot. Learn what it's like in our world, where there's thousands of guns which are exciting and fun and valuable.

Oh, and you might actually learn some facts about various cartridges. You appear sadly misinformed.

DILLIGAF
04-27-2016, 07:37 PM
Got my sling today for my Type 81

https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t34.0-12/13084304_10154175736323552_1400910033_n.jpg?oh=067 30911c250f244b9e6a30edaa503f8&oe=5723CACF

Orpheus
04-27-2016, 10:16 PM
I find it hilarious how some compare guns, like the T81 thread on CGN is a lot like this one. Everything is an SKS... It's an SKS that takes AK mags, no it's a CZ58 that takes AK mags but costs more but that's also just an expensive SKS. No it's inferior to an SKS because an SKS-D costs $300, shoots x39 and has mags.... Better yet, an SKS is $200 and you're limited to 5rds so taking mags means SFA and shoots the same x39 so it's a $1000 SKS.


That's how a freaken monkeys brain would make comparisons, like saying a Prius is the same thing as a Corolla, yo seats 5, has four wheels like a Corolla and you can't drive over 100 legally anyway (like the capacity argument when making comparisons, oh double stack pistols have no advantage because you can't legally have more than 10rds).


No mention of the operating mechanisms, the differences between failing block, tilting block, rotating bolt, short/long stroke gas operation, weight distribution, etc... I really question how many people actually know what's happening in their gun or they just pull the trigger and boom booms come out. I guess it's just like a car, plenty of people drive those and don't have the first clue as to how they work but shit were on a gun enthusiast board.

My whole issue with going ahead with ordering one is a little bit more abstract than the usual CGN bickering you just described. If it is an overall "good" gun, I dont have a problem with paying $1K regardless of where its made....as long as it's made well, and a good design. The problem is, we dont really know either of those. Very few made it into the US before the ban, so most of them are safe queens. Its unlikely that anybody is going to torture test or mag dump one for the Youtube era. So we dont know if the "platform" is any good, we dont know how well they are being built and we dont know if there is ever going to be any more than these 1000 brought in. If they do end up being unicorns then forget anykind of aftermarket. For some, that would be a selling point I suppose but not to me. Im not a "collector".

Now, in my specific case prior to the common introduction of civilian vz58 variants to NA, I actually fired them in Slovakia when visiting family. Even if that wasnt the case, my father would always say how much everyone in the armed services liked them, including some WP spec ops guys who had substantial trigger time with most everything in the NATO and WP arsenals.
We dont really have those anecdotes regarding the T81....at least none that I could find.
So this is my long-winded way of saying that until the reviews actually start coming in of these things, and preferably I get to test drive one, I cant see myself getting one.

Mobusten
04-28-2016, 12:14 AM
Sad state of affairs with so many just assuming these rifles are not here to stay. That's an excellent way to lose the fight, give up before it's even begun.

DILLIGAF
04-28-2016, 07:17 AM
Order #2163

Just Bought mine this morning with 6 extra mags :-)

TDC
05-16-2016, 01:12 PM
Really? You'd make a good politician! Fact is in certain circumstances 7.62 is preferred over 5.56. Also larger calibres (than 5.56) were tested due to experiences in Afghanistan where 5.56 was not stopping the taliban fighters (sometimes hopped up on drugs).

7.62 NATO ammunition is terminally superior to 5.56 NATO ammunition. NATO took this into account in its doctrine for a European war against the Warsaw Pact. Canadian soldiers (like me) were instructed on the difference when we transitioned. We were taught that where the 7.62 would likely be terminal, the 5.56 would likely wound but that that wounding was advantageous as it would mean two or three enemy soldiers taken out of the battle (1 wounded, 1 or 2 to attend to him).

I suppose you know better than NATO and the Canadian Army though. I'm sure you'll tell me the only difference between the two calibres is effective range.

I never said 7.62x51 was useless, I simply stated that 5.56x45 is more than capable of doing its job with the benefit of being lighter and offering less recoil than 7.62x51. Have a look at the wound profile from both calibre, the permanent wound cavity of 5.56x45 is devastating for such light projectile. You are correct in that 7.62x51 has a much greater effective range than 5.56x45 but that's merely the physics of a greater mass projectile.

http://www.forensicmed.co.uk/wounds/firearms/ballistics/
The 7.62x51 Nato ball round has a rather mundane wound profile compared to M193 or M855.

The whole "wounded soldiers require more support and therefore 5.56 was designed to wound" is absolute bullsh*t. More myth passed on by generation after generation if misinformed personnel. I'm not surprised that you believe this being a former(current?) serving member. The lack of performance abroad is anecdotal at best. Without autopises and controlled conditions where both the shooters performance and the state of the target are known there is no way to accurately conclude what is or is not a factor relating to the performance of the round in question. Regardless, there is no absolutes when it comes to terminal performance as every living target reacts differently and is engaged under different circumstances. Blaming the calibre/ammunition is an easy excuse. Place your shots and shoot to neutralize.


. It's a perfectly good 'bench' gun for those who're into it. Also sounds like fun for those who like target plinking in the woods. And personal preference is the only factor that counts in the civvie market. None of us are buying guns to go to war with, we're buying guns we like to shoot. It would be like saying to you BOTH of those guns are stupid because people should only shoot shotguns.

It is absolutely no good for bench work, it's a service rifle designed for shooting people at relatively short range. Feel free to compete against the benchrest guys and let us know how hard they laugh at you.

To listen to you, there should be one kind of gun for each type and that's it. This is the best pistol - no other is allowed. This is the best rifle, all others are of no value, etc. I also own a lot of knives, but i would imagine in your world there should only be one kind of pocket knife. I've owned many cars and trucks, but in your world i'm sure there's just one car, just one truck, etc.

Where did I ever say there should be only one gun for each purpose?? You're reading into what I post and coming up wth that ignorance. All I'm saying is that a new offering does not mean it is a worthwhile offering. If there is no performance gain to be had then I see no reason in having said offering.

Having only one tool for a specific job is a wise course of action. Tough to be proficient at any discipline if you constantly change tools. Generally speaking most who own a ton of firearms are more interested in posing/collecting than they are into actually shooting. Those who spend their time and money advancing their skills are usually the ones with a handful of firearms, and often a handful of high end firearms... Just saying.

It is quite apparent that you're not really qualified to speak on the subject. you lack a basic understanding of it. Maybe if you were picking one gun for the military to use you might have some useful opinion, but this is the civillian market.

You might be right. I look at firearms and debate their merits from a purely service point of view. I could care less what people find interesting or wish to collect as that is personal opinion and that cannot be debated.

Man - you really don't understand guns much at all do you. I guarantee you it's a different fit, and for some people they'll prefer one or the other. As if all guns with the same LOP fit the same. Yeash. The weight and balance will be different too, and some will prefer one or the other. Some will prefer one set of controls over another. Some will find the grip fits better on one than another. People will have preferences. There is no such thing as 'one gun is best for all'. In fact it goes against pretty much everything our firearms culture stands for.

You're absolutely correct, the balance and feel will be different from gun to gun. The added weight of the type 81 is a huge negative if you do any shooting off the bench. The BS myth of "feel" is the excuse used by the uninformed to validate their emotional investment into whatever they desire. Again, I am debating the merits from a service point of view. How the rifle "feels" is a moot point and has no bearing on marksmanship or reliability. The control layout is a concern but it is not the only factor to be considered. So far the type 81 has several negatives going against it and zero positive attributes. That may change when we manage to handle one but the odds aren't looking good.


You should run for the ndp. They're big on only having 3 or 4 guns that everyone has to use.

Expand your horizons. Dare to dream that there might be more than one gun in the world that's worth shooting just because you think it's fun to shoot. Learn what it's like in our world, where there's thousands of guns which are exciting and fun and valuable.

There are quite a few guns that are well designed and excellent performers. I don't select my firearms based on what I "think is fun to shoot".

Oh, and you might actually learn some facts about various cartridges. You appear sadly misinformed.

In the blue and below Doug_M's quoted post.

TDC

Doug_M
05-16-2016, 04:32 PM
I never said 7.62x51 was useless, I simply stated that 5.56x45 is more than capable of doing its job with the benefit of being lighter and offering less recoil than 7.62x51. Have a look at the wound profile from both calibre, the permanent wound cavity of 5.56x45 is devastating for such light projectile. You are correct in that 7.62x51 has a much greater effective range than 5.56x45 but that's merely the physics of a greater mass projectile.

Ha! I never said you said 7.62 was useless. You said its use was out of necessity not preference. I said that necessity made it their preference. And as for wounds and ballistics I said 7.62 is terminally superior, key word being terminally not wound. Effective distance isn't the only difference between the two NATO rounds. You can talk about "wound profile" all you want. Armies have fought many battles with both rounds and have amassed large amounts of real world experience.


The whole "wounded soldiers require more support and therefore 5.56 was designed to wound" is absolute bullsh*t. More myth passed on by generation after generation if misinformed personnel. I'm not surprised that you believe this being a former(current?) serving member. The lack of performance abroad is anecdotal at best. Without autopises and controlled conditions where both the shooters performance and the state of the target are known there is no way to accurately conclude what is or is not a factor relating to the performance of the round in question. Regardless, there is no absolutes when it comes to terminal performance as every living target reacts differently and is engaged under different circumstances. Blaming the calibre/ammunition is an easy excuse. Place your shots and shoot to neutralize.

I never said the 5.56 was designed to wound. That is an argument armchair warriors such as yourself pull out of their back pocket when confronted with the truth about the NATO doctrine around the 5.56 round. Much like progressives and social justice warriors who cry racist, homophobe or islamaphobe when confronted with facts. The NATO doctrine was that a wounded soldier takes two to three soldiers out of action and that the 5.56 was more likely to wound than the previously used 7.62 was. You can spout off whatever nonsense you gleaned from whatever cool armchair warrior forum you hang out in but I'm here to tell you, having had the training first hand, that that is what the philosophy and training was. As for anecdotal, without autopsies, controlled conditions etc I would refer you to the various wars, battles, skirmishes, brush wars etc from the 60s through to present. Perhaps talk to soldiers who've been in those wars and battles. Not the fake armchair types (you know, stolen valour and all that), but real vets. Oh and "place you shots and shoot to neutralize", spoken like a true armchair warrior. And to be perfectly clear, I have not been in battle myself but I am close friends with a few who have been and have known many others who have as well. Their stories don't match up with your assertions.

Foxer
05-16-2016, 04:58 PM
It is absolutely no good for bench work, it's a service rifle designed for shooting people at relatively short range. Feel free to compete against the benchrest guys and let us know how hard they laugh at you.Who said anything about competing? It's perfectly fine for plinking off a benchrest. Again - you think the way you shoot is the only way people shoot. Shame on you.


Where did I ever say there should be only one gun for each purpose??
Pretty much everywhere.

Which is proof that this idea that somehow hunters are the ones who are 'against other people's guns' isn't an accurate statement. You are uninformed and judgemental without the benefit of a good argument. You can't envision any use for a gun beyond your own preconceived notions and limited personal parameters. That is grossly inappropriate in this day and age. Shame on you again.


You're absolutely correct,

And you've been absolutely wrong. So there we go. You quite obviously have very limited knowledge about the subject, which is kind of disturbing all things considered.

And no- added weight is not a 'major negative' on or off the bench in most cases - go ask long range shooters if they use the heaviest guns or lightest guns. Yeah - not a lot of sporter weight guns in that class is there.

You have no idea what you're talking about. And you clearly don't understand gun ownership. You don't get to tell other people what works for them. Yeash.

TDC
05-16-2016, 05:32 PM
Ha! I never said you said 7.62 was useless. You said its use was out of necessity not preference. I said that necessity made it their preference. And as for wounds and ballistics I said 7.62 is terminally superior, key word being terminally not wound. Effective distance isn't the only difference between the two NATO rounds. You can talk about "wound profile" all you want. Armies have fought many battles with both rounds and have amassed large amounts of real world experience.

I said that the 7.62x51 round is used because it is what is standard for GPMG's and the like. I have nothing against the calibre especially with modern bullets. The fact remains that twice as many rounds of 5.56x45 can be carried for the same weight in 7.62x51. The terminal performance is not superior to 5.56x45 within the majority of confrontational distances. Terminal performance by the way is the discussion of wound profiles like the ones I linked. Terminal performance has everything to do with how the projectile reacts in human flesh and the profiles are very clear as to the rather minimal permanent wound cavity created by 7.62x51 ball ammo as compared to 5.56x45 ball ammo. Add in the increased recoil which negatively effects ones ability for rapid follow up shots and the 7.62x51 is of no real gain in todays conflicts.

I never said the 5.56 was designed to wound. That is an argument armchair warriors such as yourself pull out of their back pocket when confronted with the truth about the NATO doctrine around the 5.56 round. Much like progressives and social justice warriors who cry racist, homophobe or islamaphobe when confronted with facts. The NATO doctrine was that a wounded soldier takes two to three soldiers out of action and that the 5.56 was more likely to wound than the previously used 7.62 was. You can spout off whatever nonsense you gleaned from whatever cool armchair warrior forum you hang out in but I'm here to tell you, having had the training first hand, that that is what the philosophy and training was. As for anecdotal, without autopsies, controlled conditions etc I would refer you to the various wars, battles, skirmishes, brush wars etc from the 60s through to present. Perhaps talk to soldiers who've been in those wars and battles. Not the fake armchair types (you know, stolen valour and all that), but real vets. Oh and "place you shots and shoot to neutralize", spoken like a true armchair warrior. And to be perfectly clear, I have not been in battle myself but I am close friends with a few who have been and have known many others who have as well. Their stories don't match up with your assertions.

Again, that is all BS perpetuated by misinformed personnel. Please link me to any documents from NATO that indicate the reason for adopting 5.56x45 was due to its wounding capability. The stories you hear from vets are just that, stories. No offence to those who have served or are serving but many a so called accounts of terminal performance or lack thereof are missing important details/data or blatantly made up. In fact current studies indicate that during the second world war only 10% of soldiers on both sides actively engaged the enemy. That makes 90% of the stories told by vets either fake or not entirely true. But I'm sure you knew that, and no vet would ever lie about their actions.. Hang on a minute, I believe the late Chris Kyle lied about several of his so called experiences. All the above aside, have a look at Dr. Martin Facklers data as well as that of Lt.Col. Dave Grossman. Between Dr. Facklers hard data on ballistics performance and Lt.Col. Grossman's data regarding soldiers telling of actual accounts and their fabrications there is a clear consensus that combat stories about terminal performance are far from reliable. Again as I mentioned above there is no guarantee regardless of calibre or shot placement, so wasting time looking for the wonder calibre/bullet is false economy.

As for your thinly veiled ad hominem attacks, they speak volumes.







Who said anything about competing? It's perfectly fine for plinking off a benchrest. Again - you think the way you shoot is the only way people shoot. Shame on you.

I never said the way I shoot is the only way people should shoot. There you go again projecting what you want into the discussion. I am a PRACTICAL shooter and I select my gear and my tactics accordingly. I stated above that I compared the type 81 to other offerings from a purely SERVICE point of view. That is comparing one rifle to another in their intended role as a service rifle for shooting people. Not sure how much more transparent I can get on that point. If you want to plink or otherwise shoot recreationally I really don't care what you choose and your opinion has zero merit when discussing service rifles and the pros and cons.

Pretty much everywhere.
Please quote my previous post(s) where I said there should only be one gun for any one specific purpose.

Which is proof that this idea that somehow hunters are the ones who are 'against other people's guns' isn't an accurate statement. You are uninformed and judgemental without the benefit of a good argument. You can't envision any use for a gun beyond your own preconceived notions and limited personal parameters. That is grossly inappropriate in this day and age. Shame on you again.

And yet again, I am only concerned with the merits of the rifle with regards to its ability to perform as a SERVICE RIFLE. If you are into plinking then there is no argument for or against any rifle as it is all personal preference. From a service point of view the type 81 is inferior to other offerings, it's really not a debate it's called facts.


And you've been absolutely wrong. So there we go. You quite obviously have very limited knowledge about the subject, which is kind of disturbing all things considered.

And no- added weight is not a 'major negative' on or off the bench in most cases - go ask long range shooters if they use the heaviest guns or lightest guns. Yeah - not a lot of sporter weight guns in that class is there.

You talk about being uninformed. Have you any clue what position long range shooters use? The answer is either benched or prone, both of which require near zero physical input from the shooter unlike shooting offhand or kneeling. Weight and balance are very real factors if you shoot from an unsupported position. Furthermore the type 81 is nowhere close to being a long range shooter. You would have to be right out to lunch to think otherwise.

You have no idea what you're talking about. And you clearly don't understand gun ownership. You don't get to tell other people what works for them. Yeah.

Again, where did I tell anyone what they should use? I simply stated why the type 81 is inferior to other offerings. What you do with that information is entirely your business and has zero effect on my life. reading comprehension and self thought seem to be lacking in many. As for understanding gun ownership I'm not sure what you're getting at. Gun ownership is the legal possession of a firearm, nothing more. Perhaps you were trying to convey that I do not understand the firearm community? To that I say that there's nothing much to understand. People buy all kinds of guns for all kinds of reasons, some make sense others don't. No different than any other hobby really.




In the blue

TDC

Doug_M
05-16-2016, 05:47 PM
Buddy they weren't veiled. Let me be clear. You're an armchair warrior who regurgitates "facts" gleaned from other armchair warriors.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

kennymo
05-16-2016, 06:24 PM
A month. We nearly made it a whole month without some asinine goings on in this thread.... Please take the 5.56 vs 7.62 debate elsewhere, we already have a bunch of those threads way back in the library. In fact, all topics not directly related to the release, purchase or specification of the Type 81 rifle can go elsewhere.

Next off topic post is an infraction, there've been enough derails, petty arguments, warnings and off topic posts for ten threads in here already.

Mark-II
05-17-2016, 06:23 AM
Soooo.... Who is pre-ordering vs waiting for someone else to bring it in cheaper or waiting to see what sort of QC/finish they have?

DILLIGAF
05-17-2016, 07:30 AM
I was going to wait, But I have no self control... lol Its Chinese crap and I went in knowing that so my expectations are set very low.

Mark-II
05-17-2016, 08:27 AM
I'd have more confidence if they were made from original parts - Chinese military spec vs commercial spec and all.

New receivers and barrels, at the very least, to get them NR. Maybe the rest will be surplus parts.

I'm mostly waiting for the LMG to tempt me. Plus I seem to have the shotgun bug this year and have not shot a rifle since last year.

Mobusten
05-17-2016, 09:49 AM
I'm just waiting to see how they turn out.

Ztunelover
05-17-2016, 06:28 PM
This is going to be the most bestest carbines ever mk?

M39
05-19-2016, 10:03 PM
What's a type 81?

M39
05-19-2016, 10:04 PM
Oh that type 81.

I will wait to see if elbows bans semi autos before I buy.

Mobusten
05-19-2016, 10:49 PM
Oh that type 81.

I will wait to see if elbows bans semi autos before I buy.

.... so you're just never going to buy a semi auto again until either T-dog bans them, or someone else is in the PM chair?

Doug_M
05-20-2016, 05:10 PM
Just uploaded today
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=O1hvyOn-EZE


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Mark-II
05-20-2016, 06:55 PM
Elbows... *snork*. That has to go on the JT nicknames thread.