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View Full Version : ATRS Modern Hunter 100M zero and evaluation



LifeLine
03-24-2017, 10:27 AM
here is the third and final chapter to this tragic story.

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coastal
03-24-2017, 10:34 AM
So you're using ammo loaded for another rifle and blame the modern hunter because your ammo didn't perform that great in it? Not trying to be a dick, but that is what I am hearing you say. ;)

LifeLine
03-24-2017, 11:47 AM
No I used ammo loaded for the ATRS in another rifle and it outperformed the ATRS

zulu
03-24-2017, 01:12 PM
I'd not be too happy. My 760 shot far better then that although it wasn't as cool lookin

Strewth
03-24-2017, 01:18 PM
So...that's your best load you could find for the ATRS rifle? Are those IMI mags? And sorry man, but are you calling flyers on one group and not the other? Once again with the sorry, but did you try factory ammo? Maybe I missed that in the video?
Not trying to be a dick either, I don't have a horse in this race, just curious.

zulu
03-24-2017, 01:23 PM
^this plus what was the "other rifle?" Just interested

LifeLine
03-24-2017, 01:29 PM
So...that's your best load you could find for the ATRS rifle? Are those IMI mags? And sorry man, but are you calling flyers on one group and not the other? Once again with the sorry, but did you try factory ammo? Maybe I missed that in the video?
Not trying to be a dick either, I don't have a horse in this race, just curious.

that was the best load i could do with the ATRS all ammo was loaded specifically for that rifle and ladder testing done with over 60 rounds total. they are IMI mags that were purchased from ATRS at the time of purchasing the rifle. all flyers and cold bore shots were excluded from measurements.

LifeLine
03-24-2017, 01:33 PM
accuracy international AX .308

Strewth
03-24-2017, 01:42 PM
Thank you for the reply. I thought the IMI mags were hinky in the MH? Needed modification, or something?
Ladder tests are good....hmmm. Hope you can get this resolved to your satisfaction.

LifeLine
03-24-2017, 02:10 PM
I had no idea there was an issue with the IMI mags and the MH when ATRS sold me the rifle and mags at the same time they made no mention that modifications needed to be made.
Thank you for the reply. I thought the IMI mags were hinky in the MH? Needed modification, or something?
Ladder tests are good....hmmm. Hope you can get this resolved to your satisfaction.

Receipt
03-24-2017, 02:29 PM
lmao. An Axis kills it.

zulu
03-24-2017, 02:44 PM
Not an axis.

Receipt
03-24-2017, 03:31 PM
A scoped Axis will most certainly do better than "minute of barn" 4 MOA.
I have shot many sub 4 MOA groupings with open sights on a well used M43 Mauser...

If I owned any rifle over $500 or held no sentimental value to me and it shot 4 MOA; I'd be sending it down the road.
If I'd just laid down $4k I'd be extremely testy about the situation.

I'm confident somethings wrong here; I have my doubts all MH are minute of barn. I certainly hope.. but will never know personally just what they're capable of because I'm not willing to spend that kind of coin on a rifle at this point in my life.

Thank you for showing this Ryan. Whether its indicative of majority of MH or not.

zulu
03-24-2017, 03:50 PM
Sorry I miss read you comment about an axis kills it to mean you thought he meant the other rifle was an axis. I don't care for the bolt slip or magazine on the axis I've used but it is accurate and it would kill it in comparison as you have said

RangeBob
03-24-2017, 04:03 PM
As I recall, Alberta Tactical Rifle corp expects their
- bolt rifles: 0.5 MOA
- Modern Hunter/Varmint: 1 MOA (Varmint with 55gr FMJ AE223 ammo, and Hunter with Federal American Eagle 150 gr FMJ 308)

Dewey Cox
03-24-2017, 04:07 PM
Over on that other site, atrs gives their side of the story.
Kind of makes you wonder why this guy didn't take up his concerns with them in the first place.

Dewey Cox
03-24-2017, 04:22 PM
And he says they got 3/4 Moa out of that very rifle with over the counter rounds.

Dewey Cox
03-24-2017, 04:45 PM
I'm kind of surprised atrs hasn't posted their side of the story on goc.
It seems a little one sided.

RangeBob
03-24-2017, 04:53 PM
Over on that other site, atrs gives their side of the story.

L (https://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php/1545135-ATRS-Modern-Hunter-100M-zero-and-evaluation)ink removed

jwirecom109
03-24-2017, 04:58 PM
While there is two sides to every story, please do not link to issue posts on other sites, as per the rules.


3. No rude or abusive language allowed, including flame wars. We do not allow Gun Owners of Canada.ca to be used to deliberately trash, denigrate, or malign another forum or site. DO NOT drag your board wars over to this site or attempt to use this site as a staging point to start trouble on other sites.

coastal
03-24-2017, 05:38 PM
No I used ammo loaded for the ATRS in another rifle and it outperformed the ATRS

At :40 seconds you said "with my hand loads that I know work in other rifles" So I'm not buying it.

zulu
03-24-2017, 06:12 PM
Although I hear ya coastal. My 700p would throw surplus at 1.5 at 100m no Ammo should make such great a difference in 100m with a 4000$ gun I can see misfires and jams due to semi and length but not accuracy faults of under 1 Moa to 4 moa... something is not right

coastal
03-24-2017, 06:28 PM
Although I hear ya coastal. My 700p would throw surplus at 1.5 at 100m no Ammo should make such great a difference in 100m with a 4000$ gun I can see misfires and jams due to semi and length but not accuracy faults of under 1 Moa to 4 moa... something is not right

How about the two shots at 2:24 and 2:25, not edited, i know when I'm working on groups, 1 second between shots seems a bit short for getting breathing and reticle in check. :P

musky hunter
03-24-2017, 06:29 PM
Lame

zulu
03-24-2017, 06:35 PM
You not wrong coastal

kennyclone
03-24-2017, 06:38 PM
How about the two shots at 2:24 and 2:25, not edited, i know when I'm working on groups, 1 second between shots seems a bit short for getting breathing and reticle in check. :P

could just be edited to have you not stare at a guy for x amount of minutes between trigger pulls.
don't need a 40 nutnfancy video.

no-one special
03-24-2017, 06:44 PM
I'm kind of surprised atrs hasn't posted their side of the story on goc.
It seems a little one sided.

They can't without breaking this forums rules. They no longer pay to advertise here.

LifeLine
03-24-2017, 06:52 PM
What I meant by this was literally minutes before shooting this rifle with my lreloads that I did for the atrs I fired 10 shots with an accuracy international. I had never fired the ammo in the Accuracy International before that.

LifeLine
03-24-2017, 06:54 PM
Although I hear ya coastal. My 700p would throw surplus at 1.5 at 100m no Ammo should make such great a difference in 100m with a 4000$ gun I can see misfires and jams due to semi and length but not accuracy faults of under 1 Moa to 4 moa... something is not right the reloads were done for the atrs i fired them out of an accuracy international minutes before shooting them from the atrs. Having them group sub moa right before was my proof that they were capable

jwirecom109
03-24-2017, 06:55 PM
I'm kind of surprised atrs hasn't posted their side of the story on goc.
It seems a little one sided.
ATRS removed their subscription to post as a Sponsoring dealer at the end of 2016, we thank them for their past sponsorship and wish them well.

Due to forum Rules no Dealer, that does not have a agreement with GOC to post, is unable to post.

Rick and his team is aware of this, and follows posting within the rules of the forum respectfully.

I am sure he is aware of this post, but has not contacted me in regards to requesting to post a response.

Dewey Cox
03-24-2017, 06:56 PM
They can't without breaking this forums rules. They no longer pay to advertise here.

I can't see goc not letting them tell their side of the story.
Sure you have to pay to advertise, but I hope you're not expected to pay to set the record straight when someone is trying to drag your name through the dirt. They're not the mafia. (I hope. If they are, it was nice knowing you guys. Make sure my wife gets fair market value for my guns)

firemachine69
03-24-2017, 06:57 PM
I can't see goc not letting them tell their side of the story.
Sure you have to pay to advertise, but I hope you're not expected to pay to set the record straight when someone is trying to drag your name through the dirt. They're not the mafia. (I hope. If they are, it was nice knowing you guys. Make sure my wife gets fair market value for my guns)

No-no, that's what happens on the other site. :pot:

Dewey Cox
03-24-2017, 06:58 PM
And as I wrote that, jwire set the record straight.
I didn't know how those rules worked. Sounds reasonable to me.

Buster
03-25-2017, 12:27 PM
This doesn't make sense to me. So a ladder test was performed, then a whole batch of ammo loaded with no seating depth testing? Perhaps that particular Bullet doesn't like that jump. Having to beat the bolt open tells me the re-sizing die wasn't adjusted correctly either. Some chamber and some don't? Well that's pretty inconsistent sizing and the rifle certainly isn't at fault for that.

Bi-pods suck. I have them fitted to my rifles for a last resort. Never for load development.

I have a target from last weekend testing various factory ammunition to see what my new .243 rifle likes as I don't have time to develop a load before my wolf trip.

At 91 meters Winchester power points grouped under 1moa. Federal blue box had a shift of impact but 1moa. Federal premium strung 8 inches horizontally and 4 vertically !!!! Remington core lockt 3" wide and 4" tall.

I repeated the test with the same results, with the only change being this time federal premium put 2 nearly bugholing and one 5" left and 3" down.

I've had days developing loads in my .300 wm that saw extremes of 5" to bug holes.

Some loads work and some don't. It's as simple as that. That load may work great in another gun and what's terrible in another may be great in yours. There is no magic load.

Deuce-deuce
03-25-2017, 12:32 PM
I like Ryan's videos. I am left with questions and doubts about this series on the modern hunter... from shooting at roads/power lines to what was going on with these hand loads. The failure to feed makes me think it could be an ammo issue.

Grizz Axxemann
03-25-2017, 05:02 PM
What else would you expect from a rifle with poorly modified DPMS parts?

You'd figure that with enough of these $4000 shotguns out there, there would be a lot more people singing their praises if they shot well and ran reliably. Lots of crickets if you ask me.

Strewth
03-25-2017, 05:56 PM
Lots of load devolpment, or 60 rounds?

LifeLine
03-25-2017, 06:09 PM
Lots of load devolpment, or 60 rounds?
Would you like more then that? When I told atrs about the blown primers they gave me some starting points to work with. Considering Ive been shooting .308 for over 15 years and reloading for just as long I have a little bit of data saved up. Or should I have wasted more ammo with groupings over 4"?

Strewth
03-25-2017, 06:37 PM
Nope, sounds good to me. I see that ATRS has chosen to stop talking about this, so I'll follow their example. As before, I hope this all gets resolved to your satisfaction, sorry you had issues with the rifle, that sucks.

Buster
03-25-2017, 09:46 PM
Ive been interested in one of these rifles, so I'm not meaning to pick your post apart but it's a good chunk of money, so I'd like to understand this.

What's the back ground.. What am I reading and watching in part 1 and 3 (haven't seen part 2)

Was the ladder test performed in approximately the same temperature as the video?

Was there any testing done to find an optimum coal?

Were there any other projectiles tested with corresponding ladder and coal testing?

What range were the ladder tests done at?

How is your brass prepped? Sorted by lots? Volume? Weight? Head stamp?

Why do you presume some chamber, some don't and some get stuck? Die setup?


What I'm gathering here is you performed a ladder test, loaded up a batch and assumed that's her.

A ladder test will help determine an optimum charge weight, but that doesn't mean that load is going to shoot worth a shit.

Just by the chambering and extraction issues I sense your resizing die wasn't setup to ensure all your brass would fit your chamber. Your chamber is not changing dimensions between shots. That's poor brass prep. You get out what you put in.

Is your brass sorted with any sort of consideration? Are some once fired while others are 5? That'll play games with neck tension.

back in my beginnings, I wasted a lot of money tuning loads off the bipod... Big mistake. I don't care who you are... You can not tune loads with a bipod resting on anything but maybe some dead damp sandbags.

Cold weather is a hell of a thing to muscle memory, trigger finger feel.

-20c... Is that the temp your loads were developed in?

-20c will also have a hell of an effect on your bolt and firing pin/hammer function. Too much lube or too much viscosity and you are slowing things right down. Down to the point of not working.

Are the primers popping or blanking? What primers? I had a batch of Winchester primers that required me to reduce charge weights by a massive amount to stop them from bursting at the edges. They collect dust now. Soft cups. Junk.
I've also seen heavy lubricants slow the hammer/firing pin enough to fire the primer but not carry enough energy to support the primer, which means blanking, where a hole is plowing out of the primer cup into the firing pin hole. That is a lubricant and temperature issue.

Have you tried the scope on another rifle? Sure it's not defective? Rings and mounts tight?

I can not fathom what could be physically defective with a rifle other than lap thing being loose between the reticle and muzzle that would cause it to not shoot any load combo.

So this is my take.... Shooting off a bipod, resting on the field, in -20, with the one and only load being tested, with what appears to be terribly inconsitant brass... I woundnt expect anything but this result given all the variables.

Hell, my rob arm xcr shoots better than this with surplus and 1/3 of my barrel having no rifling left in it and that's no exaggeration what so ever.

I'm sorry but I can not see a reason to put blame on your rifle just yet. Garbage in=garbage out.

JustBen
03-26-2017, 06:35 AM
I have only seen the modern varmint rifle once in person, but I know the guy who owns it gets about 0.75 MOA.

Also, if you are seriously reloading for a semiautomatic you need to use small base sizer dies. Otherwise you end up with rounds that won't feed or won't eject.

Doing any load development with a bipod is neatly impossible if you don't preload it the same every time.

I'm sorry, but what exactly are this guys qualifications anyways?

Booletsnotreactwell
03-26-2017, 07:30 AM
Here's the thing with the ATRS Modernwhatevertheheck.

It's about a $4000-5000 rifle. The nature of the rifle and the price puts it in the same price range as things like the KAC SR25 & H&K MR308/223.

Those are $4000 AR10/15 style rifles that can actually preform MOA or better and have extensive government tests to prove it. The "tests" shown by supposed ATRS MH/MV owners are usually just cherry picked three shot groups measured with the extreme spread method, one or two samples and all samples have flyers taken out. That's bullshit, in accounting they call that torturing the numbers, you do it enough and the numbers will tell you whatever you want.

The real way of measuring precision takes into account mean radius, ES and repeats the tests for a statistically relevant sample. They actually have document (CEP) Circular Error Probable that indicate consistent groups that would be considered MOA via the ES method with factory match ammo not some mystical fairy dust unobtainable reloads that somehow the ATRS guy gets sub MOA with but you can't ever seem to get.

They are also top of the line military use battle ready rifles, they can digest all sorts of ammo and unforgiving conditions. Imagine if running some "non-premium" ammo jammed up an H&K? They will digest cheap as shit pot metal steel cased surplus bullshit all day every day. Most parts are actually manufactured in house, significant multi-million dollar R&D team and engineers, etc... Pretty much exactly what I would expect from a $5000 rifle.

With the ATRS rifles/guys the excuse parade comes out, "oh you wouldn't put regular gas in a high end car", "oh you used non-match ammo in a match rifle", etc... It's not like that with guns, cheap guns malfuction and need to be babied, high end guns especially "military style" black rifles the more you pay the more hardcore over-engineered bullet proof of a product you get.

ATRS, Nothing but the lower/upper is made in house likely, small bits are probably DPMS, sure it's got a high end barrel and all on top of a few other high end aftermarket add ons.

There's nothing mystical or unique about it, mechanically I consider it an AR15 and I think anybody who knows anything about guns who then looks at one would agree. It's an AR15 retrofitted to be a side charger, which I don't understand how legally that makes it not an AR15 since there are plenty of side charging AR15's that have existed for ages yet are still considered AR15's. They also mill the lower/upper in a weird way so it wont interface with a standard AR lower/upper, change the location of the barrel indexing pin/barrel extension, use an AR10 one pin trigger and that's about it.


It wouldn't surprise me at all if somewhere a guy with 1 post and yesterdays date for join date starts posting about how awesome his rifle is, "hey check out my .25 MOA group". Companies use google notifications where google alerts business owners if something is posted about one of their products so they can do things exactly like that. IMO ATRS didn't renew their business membership because they couldn't buy the owner of this site out and have a cleanup crew follow and sanitize everything/ban everybody who said otherwise.

kennymo
03-26-2017, 07:53 AM
There's nothing mystical or unique about it, mechanically I consider it an AR15 and I think anybody who knows anything about guns who then looks at one would agree. It's an AR15 retrofitted to be a side charger, which I don't understand how legally that makes it not an AR15

The side charger has nothing to do with it being or not being an AR. The upper will not fit or function on top of an AR lower (including the infamous RCMP duct tape and popscicle stick method) and an AR upper will not fit or function on the lower. Full stop, that's all that's legally required to make this 'not an AR', since 90's Liberal lawmakers wrote the rules that way.

enerflex
03-26-2017, 09:08 AM
Here's the thing with the ATRS Modernwhatevertheheck.

It's about a $4000-5000 rifle. The nature of the rifle and the price puts it in the same price range as things like the KAC SR25 & H&K MR308/223.

Those are $4000 AR10/15 style rifles that can actually preform MOA or better and have extensive government tests to prove it. The "tests" shown by supposed ATRS MH/MV owners are usually just cherry picked three shot groups measured with the extreme spread method, one or two samples and all samples have flyers taken out. That's bullshit, in accounting they call that torturing the numbers, you do it enough and the numbers will tell you whatever you want.

The real way of measuring precision takes into account mean radius, ES and repeats the tests for a statistically relevant sample. They actually have document (CEP) Circular Error Probable that indicate consistent groups that would be considered MOA via the ES method with factory match ammo not some mystical fairy dust unobtainable reloads that somehow the ATRS guy gets sub MOA with but you can't ever seem to get.

They are also top of the line military use battle ready rifles, they can digest all sorts of ammo and unforgiving conditions. Imagine if running some "non-premium" ammo jammed up an H&K? They will digest cheap as shit pot metal steel cased surplus bullshit all day every day. Most parts are actually manufactured in house, significant multi-million dollar R&D team and engineers, etc... Pretty much exactly what I would expect from a $5000 rifle.

With the ATRS rifles/guys the excuse parade comes out, "oh you wouldn't put regular gas in a high end car", "oh you used non-match ammo in a match rifle", etc... It's not like that with guns, cheap guns malfuction and need to be babied, high end guns especially "military style" black rifles the more you pay the more hardcore over-engineered bullet proof of a product you get.

ATRS, Nothing but the lower/upper is made in house likely, small bits are probably DPMS, sure it's got a high end barrel and all on top of a few other high end aftermarket add ons.

There's nothing mystical or unique about it, mechanically I consider it an AR15 and I think anybody who knows anything about guns who then looks at one would agree. It's an AR15 retrofitted to be a side charger, which I don't understand how legally that makes it not an AR15 since there are plenty of side charging AR15's that have existed for ages yet are still considered AR15's. They also mill the lower/upper in a weird way so it wont interface with a standard AR lower/upper, change the location of the barrel indexing pin/barrel extension, use an AR10 one pin trigger and that's about it.


It wouldn't surprise me at all if somewhere a guy with 1 post and yesterdays date for join date starts posting about how awesome his rifle is, "hey check out my .25 MOA group". Companies use google notifications where google alerts business owners if something is posted about one of their products so they can do things exactly like that. IMO ATRS didn't renew their business membership because they couldn't buy the owner of this site out and have a cleanup crew follow and sanitize everything/ban everybody who said otherwise.

Here is my personal take,

I contacted ATRS way back when it was first coming out, asking if i could just buy a stripped upper and lower and build my own, on top of their design, since well they use all AR10 parts.

I was told no.

I'm guessing its to hide the cost of the lower/upper. And to MAXIMIZE the money they make.

Design input cost aside, look at all the uppers and lowers on the market for AR15s/AR10s, you looking a couple hundred, not YES this is not a AR10, but still same CNC process, I mean its an upper and lower.

But buying ATRS you expect overrun costs for no reason except the fact that they have the only Non Restricted AR10 version of a rifle on the market.

I've seen the reviews of guys on the markets, showing 1 MOA, etc etc. Honestly I've seen the better results with a AR15 20" with iron sights and factory rounds.

So what does that say about the ATRS MH? means the Price is based on the fact its only non restricted.

If you look at the market anything Non Restricted and in Canada is expensive, so ATRS took advantage of that.

It has nothing to do with the quality of work, or the accuracy, or the parts, your paying for Non Restricted Status, be it a POS or not. I've heard horror stories about their bolt action rifles, but then again every manufacture has issues, so ATRS can't say they never have.

One thing that comes up on the other forum is the comment about another company trying to degrade the name of the MH.

HA I say, HA! There have been talks about several companies bringing in something similar, and for less then the MH.

If that happens the MH will be done, starting at near 5k, anything under 3k that's similar will kill the MH and the fan boys, there wouldn't be a requirement for a company to damage the name.

Why will the MH be done? well one you can't drop the price that much without everyone being pissed that they over paid for it, and they wouldn't be able to compete against someone lower priced.

I would offer that ATRS didn't name the other company because 1. they are not sure exactly if its true or not and wouldn't like another company owning them for being sued for libel. and 2. its most likely not true and some random internet junkie put two random pieces of information together.

Have I shot a MH? No! Seen them in person, seen the reviews.
Will I? Sure! I'll take any chance to shoot a gun.
Will I buy one? No not for that price.

Now about the Video.

It was Poorly done, I'll focus on the operator issues.

1. Temperature - The Operator - its minus 20, at that temperature you start to see operators make small mistakes that change a lot, do I think that this could have come into play, yes

2. Temperature - The Rounds - What was the temperature you developed your loads in? I'm going to assume its not -20, so if you zero'd and developed loads at a different temperature your going to run into issues.

3. Maintaining Point of Impact - Bipod - does yours shift from side to side? Cant issues can come up from that.

4. Maintaining Point of Impact - No Aim Point - You showed a white target with no reference point for Aiming, hard to reset your aim without a reference point.

5. Comment on hand loads - Every gun, even built exactly the same will need to have its own development, just because they work in another gun doesn't mean that its right for this gun, basic reloaders know that so your comment, and showing a target with the loads for another rifle pretty much is the operator being lazy not making sure he had his own loads, or he just doesn't know what he is doing.

6. Calculation of groupings - Yeah sorry dude calling bullshit on that, the 4 core rounds look like your grouping you have 5 flyers (operator error), also you said 10 round grouping, there are only 9.... Your grouping with the bolt action is as bad as the MH, so i'm going to say your not a very experienced shooter or you were too cold to shoot properly due to your flyers.

7. No reference to the target during the shoot - How can we tell that's the target you shot, how can we tell that the MH didn't shoot the tight group and the other group was zero'ing in, etc etc etc. We have to take your word for it, and we shouldn't have to it should be hard facts.

8. Your comments at the end - You seem biased, very biased I would suggest your out for blood because they wronged you, or looking for your money back because you need the cash, or could just be that your completely unprofessional.

Overall my final thoughts.

1. MH is overpriced, and could be Alot cheaper, but that's ATRS's problem to deal with.
2. The gun might be the issue but I think its the operator for many reasons.
3. The operator is unprofessional and rank amateur, there were so many issues in the video that any basic reloader, or shooter would pick up, that anyone with half a brain wouldn't film that or release it.
4. The operator should remove the video from all locations, issue a formal apology to the company for his unprofessional behavior.
5. The operator should apologize to all of us for wasting our time watching and having to point out how wrong he is.

Booletsnotreactwell
03-26-2017, 11:01 AM
The side charger has nothing to do with it being or not being an AR. The upper will not fit or function on top of an AR lower (including the infamous RCMP duct tape and popscicle stick method) and an AR upper will not fit or function on the lower. Full stop, that's all that's legally required to make this 'not an AR', since 90's Liberal lawmakers wrote the rules that way.

I'm very well aware of that. If I cut funny shapes and weird angles into a lower/upper so that it doesn't interface with a normal upper/lower and the Government of Canada thinks it's an entirely different type of gun that's fine, it's still an AR15 though. It's awesome that they got around that using that loophole, good on them. It's still an AR15.

I say that because that means whether NR or R, doing a direct comparison to "other" AR pattern rifles on the market is fair game. The excuse parade likes to say that it's not since they think it's a different type of gun.


I bet anything if you just plugged in a high quality SS barrel/bolt to a standard generic upper lower that can be had anywhere for cheap you'd get better results. Go build your dream MH/MV, list all the parts you wanna use, now minus everything out that isn't proprietary to ATRS. You'll see that they're probably charging north of a grand for two pieces of billet and a jimmy rigged DPMS bolt. You're essentially paying for a loophole, you're buying a really expensive upper/lower that loopholed the AR designation with just a bunch of high end aftermarket AR parts hooked up to it. Nothing super special custom about that.

It would have been a better business model to sell a "de-restricting kit", just sell people the upper/lower/bolt/lpk sub 1k, the only thing you really need to make is mill out two billets. Since the receiver is considered the firearm, people just hook it up to their current AR15 and done, non-restricted.

I have a theory though on why this doesn't happen. Either I'm wrong and it's a better business model/more lucrative to sell people some outta this world custom rifle, or so they think OR, and this is a big one... I think the whole thing is standing on shaky ground legally and just like the .50 Cal Beowulf mags if things get out of control the powers that be act. When there was only one brand of .50 cal mags, at most a few hundred of them in country and they sold for $100 + each, nobody cared, the powers that be didn't say anything. Kinda like the Valmet, it's an AK and they don't want us to have AKs except they cost a lot, there's very few of them and basically we don't have them. Have a factory start pumping out new "Valmets" however, watch them jump on that like flies on shit.

Westicle
03-26-2017, 11:36 AM
to put it bluntly, atrs does not have the economy of scale to produce its proprietary upper/lower for "cheaper" prices.

its different when us manufacturers manufacture 10k units at time, atrs is building these one at a time..... thats what your paying for, frankly i am surprized a us manufacturer has not done the same with lower/upper fitment and tried to get it approved, but again canada is a small market in a very big pond.

how does NEA do it ? they had a thriving international market long before introducing the ar15 they make, same deal with the ar10 clone.... they have been selling ar10's internationally for a long time, they dont release their straight up ar10 to canadian public as it may gum up classification of the nea102.

is that an excuse for poor accuracy ? nope..... but in the end it is built off of an ar10/sr25 style, the only parts that matter for accuracy are trigger/barrel/bolt/BCG and perhaps gas block.

the notice of lack of a solid reference point on the target also makes me suspicious he might have been chasing bullet holes, notice how the AI group is up at the shoulders and the shooter could use the head/body juncture as a good reference point...... meanwhile, the bottom group is just in a sea of white.

LifeLine
03-26-2017, 01:44 PM
Ive been interested in one of these rifles, so I'm not meaning to pick your post apart but it's a good chunk of money, so I'd like to understand this.

What's the back ground.. What am I reading and watching in part 1 and 3 (haven't seen part 2)

Was the ladder test performed in approximately the same temperature as the video?

Was there any testing done to find an optimum coal?

Were there any other projectiles tested with corresponding ladder and coal testing?

What range were the ladder tests done at?

How is your brass prepped? Sorted by lots? Volume? Weight? Head stamp?

Why do you presume some chamber, some don't and some get stuck? Die setup?


What I'm gathering here is you performed a ladder test, loaded up a batch and assumed that's her.

A ladder test will help determine an optimum charge weight, but that doesn't mean that load is going to shoot worth a shit.

Just by the chambering and extraction issues I sense your resizing die wasn't setup to ensure all your brass would fit your chamber. Your chamber is not changing dimensions between shots. That's poor brass prep. You get out what you put in.

Is your brass sorted with any sort of consideration? Are some once fired while others are 5? That'll play games with neck tension.

back in my beginnings, I wasted a lot of money tuning loads off the bipod... Big mistake. I don't care who you are... You can not tune loads with a bipod resting on anything but maybe some dead damp sandbags.

Cold weather is a hell of a thing to muscle memory, trigger finger feel.

-20c... Is that the temp your loads were developed in?

-20c will also have a hell of an effect on your bolt and firing pin/hammer function. Too much lube or too much viscosity and you are slowing things right down. Down to the point of not working.

Are the primers popping or blanking? What primers? I had a batch of Winchester primers that required me to reduce charge weights by a massive amount to stop them from bursting at the edges. They collect dust now. Soft cups. Junk.
I've also seen heavy lubricants slow the hammer/firing pin enough to fire the primer but not carry enough energy to support the primer, which means blanking, where a hole is plowing out of the primer cup into the firing pin hole. That is a lubricant and temperature issue.

Have you tried the scope on another rifle? Sure it's not defective? Rings and mounts tight?

I can not fathom what could be physically defective with a rifle other than lap thing being loose between the reticle and muzzle that would cause it to not shoot any load combo.

So this is my take.... Shooting off a bipod, resting on the field, in -20, with the one and only load being tested, with what appears to be terribly inconsitant brass... I woundnt expect anything but this result given all the variables.

Hell, my rob arm xcr shoots better than this with surplus and 1/3 of my barrel having no rifling left in it and that's no exaggeration what so ever.

I'm sorry but I can not see a reason to put blame on your rifle just yet. Garbage in=garbage out.

You did see the other grouping performed with the exact same ammunition right? The load was developed for the ATRS and fired perfectly fine out of the other rifle. The other rifle had never used any of that ammo before.

LifeLine
03-26-2017, 01:56 PM
If you read the description for the video it addressed a lot of your issues. As for the target I showed the target backer as I used colour changing paper targets which make the grouping even bigger then it was.

enerflex
03-26-2017, 02:05 PM
If you read the description for the video it addressed a lot of your issues. As for the target I showed the target backer as I used colour changing paper targets which make the grouping even bigger then it was.

Sorry I call BS, we didn't see that target, so we can't take your word for it.



You did see the other grouping performed with the exact same ammunition right? The load was developed for the ATRS and fired perfectly fine out of the other rifle. The other rifle had never used any of that ammo before.

right.....

LifeLine
03-26-2017, 02:10 PM
Why would lie? Rick is that you?

enerflex
03-26-2017, 02:14 PM
Why would lie? Rick is that you?

No my name is not rick, do you accuse everyone that doesn't agree with you because there is no proof of being someone else?

and if you read my summary, you'll understand my position

LifeLine
03-26-2017, 02:25 PM
http://i1277.photobucket.com/albums/y483/mel_ester/IMG_0655_zpse3tb5utz.jpeg (http://s1277.photobucket.com/user/mel_ester/media/IMG_0655_zpse3tb5utz.jpeg.html)
Here is the factory Hornady match 155 gr brass and factory match 168 gr brass fired in temps around -2*c
http://i1277.photobucket.com/albums/y483/mel_ester/IMG_0635_zpskbdrmkbw.jpg (http://s1277.photobucket.com/user/mel_ester/media/IMG_0635_zpskbdrmkbw.jpg.html)
Here is the charging handle that broke after about 3 rounds down range when I first purchased the rifle.
http://i1277.photobucket.com/albums/y483/mel_ester/IMG_0566_zpsyqkyj6u5.jpg (http://s1277.photobucket.com/user/mel_ester/media/IMG_0566_zpsyqkyj6u5.jpg.html)
Here is the target that was set up which makes the grouping look bigger then it actually is. Because of the colour changing paper

no-one special
03-26-2017, 03:20 PM
Here's the thing with the ATRS Modernwhatevertheheck.

It's about a $4000-5000 rifle. The nature of the rifle and the price puts it in the same price range as things like the KAC SR25 & H&K MR308/223.

Those are $4000 AR10/15 style rifles that can actually preform MOA or better and have extensive government tests to prove it. The "tests" shown by supposed ATRS MH/MV owners are usually just cherry picked three shot groups measured with the extreme spread method, one or two samples and all samples have flyers taken out. That's bullshit, in accounting they call that torturing the numbers, you do it enough and the numbers will tell you whatever you want.

The real way of measuring precision takes into account mean radius, ES and repeats the tests for a statistically relevant sample. They actually have document (CEP) Circular Error Probable that indicate consistent groups that would be considered MOA via the ES method with factory match ammo not some mystical fairy dust unobtainable reloads that somehow the ATRS guy gets sub MOA with but you can't ever seem to get.

They are also top of the line military use battle ready rifles, they can digest all sorts of ammo and unforgiving conditions. Imagine if running some "non-premium" ammo jammed up an H&K? They will digest cheap as shit pot metal steel cased surplus bullshit all day every day. Most parts are actually manufactured in house, significant multi-million dollar R&D team and engineers, etc... Pretty much exactly what I would expect from a $5000 rifle.

With the ATRS rifles/guys the excuse parade comes out, "oh you wouldn't put regular gas in a high end car", "oh you used non-match ammo in a match rifle", etc... It's not like that with guns, cheap guns malfuction and need to be babied, high end guns especially "military style" black rifles the more you pay the more hardcore over-engineered bullet proof of a product you get.

ATRS, Nothing but the lower/upper is made in house likely, small bits are probably DPMS, sure it's got a high end barrel and all on top of a few other high end aftermarket add ons.

There's nothing mystical or unique about it, mechanically I consider it an AR15 and I think anybody who knows anything about guns who then looks at one would agree. It's an AR15 retrofitted to be a side charger, which I don't understand how legally that makes it not an AR15 since there are plenty of side charging AR15's that have existed for ages yet are still considered AR15's. They also mill the lower/upper in a weird way so it wont interface with a standard AR lower/upper, change the location of the barrel indexing pin/barrel extension, use an AR10 one pin trigger and that's about it.


It wouldn't surprise me at all if somewhere a guy with 1 post and yesterdays date for join date starts posting about how awesome his rifle is, "hey check out my .25 MOA group". Companies use google notifications where google alerts business owners if something is posted about one of their products so they can do things exactly like that. IMO ATRS didn't renew their business membership because they couldn't buy the owner of this site out and have a cleanup crew follow and sanitize everything/ban everybody who said otherwise.

Wow!! Talk about a TON of not having a clue. Yes the ATRS rifle shares alot of commonality with an AR platform, but there was alot more that was involved in having the NR status bestowed on these guns.
Very few of the parts if any are actually DPMS from what I have asked and been shown 1st hand. Mother always told me if you don't know about something better to remain quiet and look the fool rather than to spout off and remove all doubt.

I am one of the fortunate few who have actually been priviledged to see behind the scenes at ATRS, I seriously doubt you have so making broad statements based on ZERO actual intel makes no sense at all.

I also doubt that the principals of this forum would appreciate their integrity being questioned.

no-one special
03-26-2017, 03:32 PM
http://i1277.photobucket.com/albums/y483/mel_ester/IMG_0655_zpse3tb5utz.jpeg (http://s1277.photobucket.com/user/mel_ester/media/IMG_0655_zpse3tb5utz.jpeg.html)
Here is the factory Hornady match 155 gr brass and factory match 168 gr brass fired in temps around -2*c
http://i1277.photobucket.com/albums/y483/mel_ester/IMG_0635_zpskbdrmkbw.jpg (http://s1277.photobucket.com/user/mel_ester/media/IMG_0635_zpskbdrmkbw.jpg.html)
Here is the charging handle that broke after about 3 rounds down range when I first purchased the rifle.
http://i1277.photobucket.com/albums/y483/mel_ester/IMG_0566_zpsyqkyj6u5.jpg (http://s1277.photobucket.com/user/mel_ester/media/IMG_0566_zpsyqkyj6u5.jpg.html)
Here is the target that was set up which makes the grouping look bigger then it actually is. Because of the colour changing paper

For a self proclaimed "industry expert" the epic fail continues. Any rank amatuer can see the over pressure signs on the casings with the blown primers.
You claim extensive reloading experience, but do you seriously believe that it is the rifle that creates the over pressure????

So after the chage handle broke off I bet you will claim it took ATRS months and months to replace it for you?

Keep trolling, it only helps me in the long run.

LifeLine
03-26-2017, 04:01 PM
Did you even read I said it was factory loads.. for a guy with an opinion you sure don't look too closely do you?

LifeLine
03-26-2017, 04:04 PM
For a self proclaimed "industry expert" the epic fail continues. Any rank amatuer can see the over pressure signs on the casings with the blown primers.
You claim extensive reloading experience, but do you seriously believe that it is the rifle that creates the over pressure????

So after the chage handle broke off I bet you will claim it took ATRS months and months to replace it for you?

Keep trolling, it only helps me in the long run. no I said ATRS replaced it fast several times. As well that's factory ammo Hornady MATCH 155 and 168. MATCH not superformance not reloads Factory match. Ive said it several times. I guess hornady sucks at loading ammo too huh?

firemachine69
03-26-2017, 04:07 PM
I just want to know why there's a dent in every case ...

cobrajr122
03-26-2017, 04:23 PM
I just want to know why there's a dent in every case ...

Some guns eject rounds violently into the deflector, I know for the tavor they pretty much all do it.

Tavor casings dented and a flattened mouth from very strong ejection.
http://truthaboutguns-zippykid.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Tavor-14.png

firemachine69
03-26-2017, 04:29 PM
I guess there isn't much reloading those, eh? :)

coastal
03-26-2017, 06:26 PM
Is this defective rifle for sale?

LifeLine
03-26-2017, 08:28 PM
Is this defective rifle for sale?

No it is not

no-one special
03-26-2017, 08:44 PM
Did you even read I said it was factory loads.. for a guy with an opinion you sure don't look too closely do you?

Regardless of whether they are factory loads or roll your own, as a self proclaimed "industry expert" and accomplished reloader, I would have thought is pretty obvious that these loads were HOT! Auto deprimed brass casings from being fired is just plain dangerous and regardless of the gun is still an ammo issue, not a gun issue.
Blowing primers is seldom if ever caused by a rifle, it is caused by the pressure created within the round. These pressures are used to propel the projectile out of the casing and down the barrel. There are several factors that govern said pressures, type of powder, amount of powder, diameter of projectile in relation to bore diameter, headspacing tolerances as well as many more and now the lesson on how ammo works is over. With seeing very obvious signs of over pressure anyone with a real clue about firearms and reloading would stop shooting them immediately. You claim to have extensive reloading experience, well you know what? The signs of a over pressure load are exactly the same on factory fodder as they are on home grown.

I think you need to learn ALOT more about firearms and ammunition before claiming to be an Industry expert, or even a quasi experienced reloader.

I am sorry but watching your video shows a great deal of unprofessional firearms handling. I noticed how fast you are to open the chamber when you have a fail to fire. Whatever happened to the 1 minute rule of firearms handling safety? Did you sleep through that part of the FSC you had to take to get your PAL?
Apparently you have never witnessed or experienced a hang fire? It can truly be a spectacle to behold. Your shooting positions are not at all consistent hence much of your accuracy problems I suspect. Not keeping your hand in the same place for each shot is also detrimental to accuracy, and the list could go on adnauseum.

LifeLine
03-26-2017, 09:34 PM
No you're right I didn't learn to eject a live round on a firearm safety course I did in basic training.

Booletsnotreactwell
03-26-2017, 11:22 PM
to put it bluntly, atrs does not have the economy of scale to produce its proprietary upper/lower for "cheaper" prices.
its different when us manufacturers manufacture 10k units at time, atrs is building these one at a time..... thats what your paying for, frankly i am surprized a us manufacturer has not done the same with lower/upper fitment and tried to get it approved, but again canada is a small market in a very big pond.

I am aware of that, I don't usually hold it against manufactures that they can't turn out as many parts or whatever in the same price/quality as some huge manufacture as long as the discrepancy in price isn't absurd. At some point though, you gotta call it for what it is. Sometimes you just can't compete in a certain market. It's like the Walmart effect, the local gun store vs Cabelas. Yea the local store gives you better service, does it justify or make sense for the $200 difference?

The effect is very apparent in the AR game. The only reason billet receivers seem to exist is mainly because it's the only way for small shops to do it, they don't have the millions of dollars required to forge receivers on an industrial scale. The end result though is you end up with a more expensive product that really doesn't have any advantage other than looking cool/different.

Same deal with barrels, big manufactures can hammer forge and chrome line barrels by the hundreds every hour, they have the millions invested in machinery and can turn out very high quality barrels even with those detrimental processes being used. FN Herstal for example makes a 1/2 MOA rated bolt rifle that uses a hammer forged chrome lined barrel and starts off with the same blank as an M240 MG.

So if we take FN vs a small time manufacture as an example, the small shop could never do that let alone compete in the same price/performance category. The small shop would take 10x as many man hours to make a traditional unlined cut or button rifled barrel that may be slightly better in precision or it might not yet costs three times as much.

Remember what I said about the excuse parade? The one post wonders that come out of the woodwork all of a sudden that defend the product yet have no vested interest in it... 16 posts, five of which are about ATRS, second post ever on this forum was about ATRS.


Why is it always excuses with this line of products? It's the ammo, the operator, the reloader, the excessive lubricant used, etc... Then there's always somebody that claims to be impartial that comes out of nowhere that starts dissing the original poster, questioning his credentials and resorting to personal attacks. Every other $5000 rifle, H&K, LMT, you don't see any of this funny business and you don't see guys coming out of nowhere trying to destroy the credibility of the person questioning the product or giving it a bad review.

firemachine69
03-27-2017, 04:53 AM
I am aware of that, I don't usually hold it against manufactures that they can't turn out as many parts or whatever in the same price/quality as some huge manufacture as long as the discrepancy in price isn't absurd. At some point though, you gotta call it for what it is. Sometimes you just can't compete in a certain market. It's like the Walmart effect, the local gun store vs Cabelas. Yea the local store gives you better service, does it justify or make sense for the $200 difference?

The effect is very apparent in the AR game. The only reason billet receivers seem to exist is mainly because it's the only way for small shops to do it, they don't have the millions of dollars required to forge receivers on an industrial scale. The end result though is you end up with a more expensive product that really doesn't have any advantage other than looking cool/different.

Same deal with barrels, big manufactures can hammer forge and chrome line barrels by the hundreds every hour, they have the millions invested in machinery and can turn out very high quality barrels even with those detrimental processes being used. FN Herstal for example makes a 1/2 MOA rated bolt rifle that uses a hammer forged chrome lined barrel and starts off with the same blank as an M240 MG.

So if we take FN vs a small time manufacture as an example, the small shop could never do that let alone compete in the same price/performance category. The small shop would take 10x as many man hours to make a traditional unlined cut or button rifled barrel that may be slightly better in precision or it might not yet costs three times as much.

Remember what I said about the excuse parade? The one post wonders that come out of the woodwork all of a sudden that defend the product yet have no vested interest in it... 16 posts, five of which are about ATRS, second post ever on this forum was about ATRS.


Why is it always excuses with this line of products? It's the ammo, the operator, the reloader, the excessive lubricant used, etc... Then there's always somebody that claims to be impartial that comes out of nowhere that starts dissing the original poster, questioning his credentials and resorting to personal attacks. Every other $5000 rifle, H&K, LMT, you don't see any of this funny business and you don't see guys coming out of nowhere trying to destroy the credibility of the person questioning the product or giving it a bad review.




Well, in defense, my $3000 ACR DMR isn't a bad rifle, but it does nothing spectacularly better than an AR, and it happens to weigh more. While I definitely purchased it for it's NR status, I fail to understand why an American would have interest in one.

coastal
03-27-2017, 07:48 AM
I am aware of that, I don't usually hold it against manufactures that they can't turn out as many parts or whatever in the same price/quality as some huge manufacture as long as the discrepancy in price isn't absurd. At some point though, you gotta call it for what it is. Sometimes you just can't compete in a certain market. It's like the Walmart effect, the local gun store vs Cabelas. Yea the local store gives you better service, does it justify or make sense for the $200 difference?

The effect is very apparent in the AR game. The only reason billet receivers seem to exist is mainly because it's the only way for small shops to do it, they don't have the millions of dollars required to forge receivers on an industrial scale. The end result though is you end up with a more expensive product that really doesn't have any advantage other than looking cool/different.

Same deal with barrels, big manufactures can hammer forge and chrome line barrels by the hundreds every hour, they have the millions invested in machinery and can turn out very high quality barrels even with those detrimental processes being used. FN Herstal for example makes a 1/2 MOA rated bolt rifle that uses a hammer forged chrome lined barrel and starts off with the same blank as an M240 MG.

So if we take FN vs a small time manufacture as an example, the small shop could never do that let alone compete in the same price/performance category. The small shop would take 10x as many man hours to make a traditional unlined cut or button rifled barrel that may be slightly better in precision or it might not yet costs three times as much.

Remember what I said about the excuse parade? The one post wonders that come out of the woodwork all of a sudden that defend the product yet have no vested interest in it... 16 posts, five of which are about ATRS, second post ever on this forum was about ATRS.


Why is it always excuses with this line of products? It's the ammo, the operator, the reloader, the excessive lubricant used, etc... Then there's always somebody that claims to be impartial that comes out of nowhere that starts dissing the original poster, questioning his credentials and resorting to personal attacks. Every other $5000 rifle, H&K, LMT, you don't see any of this funny business and you don't see guys coming out of nowhere trying to destroy the credibility of the person questioning the product or giving it a bad review.

I appreciate a small business taking a lot of risk trying to make a product for a small market. As a business owner, I sympathize with their efforts. It amazes me people like you come online to bash products like this that you feel are too expensive based on your assumptions of how they're made and by comparing them to ar rifles that are restricted. Guess what? People that don't live in cities like you have a need for non restricted rifles. Just yesterday I chased after my dog who was chasing a pack of coyotes... Guess what I grabbed? My xcr-l and 3 magazines.

I fully understand that an AR based rifle is cheaper, but that doesn't help us if we want to follow the current laws. Atrs is building something that helps us around those laws, building them one at a time and I expect them to be more expensive. (but I wish they weren't lol)

hawk-i
03-27-2017, 10:11 AM
Thank you for the video review....I hope ATRS gets their shyt together on this rifle but as it stands now its looking pretty pathetic for a 4-5000.00 rifle.

Booletsnotreactwell
03-27-2017, 11:23 AM
comparing them to ar rifles that are restricted.

I've explained my logic for using my comparison, strictly quality/performance per dollar it's fair game to compare. I understand the need for non-restricted rifles but the value and premium those command in this country while it's "real" in the sense that we pay for it, it's artificial. I'm not gonna change the way I see value because of some law, if they banned imports and all you could get was really shitty over priced government motors cars I wouldn't change my standards for what I consider good price/performance/quality.

On a U.S. forum that's exactly how the comparison would go down, it would be pitted up against rifles from the big players and most would probably come to the same conclusion I've come to.



Guess what? People that don't live in cities like you have a need for non restricted rifles. Just yesterday I chased after my dog who was chasing a pack of coyotes... Guess what I grabbed? My xcr-l and 3 magazines.

I'm not here to rage on the whole non-restricted vs restricted thing, it should be obvious that the shittiest non-restricted gun is better than the most high end gun that's restricted and locked up far far away while you're in the bush. That's fine, but once you get that out of the way it's gonna be compared 1:1 with other offerings of the same platform and my assessment is in that realm it sucks. If you turn a blind eye to that you're being willfully ignorant. Kinda like the guys who are paying $1000 for Glocks right now, that price isn't even artificial it's rigged yet people pay it because they don't have that ability to dissect value.


It amazes me people like you come online to bash products like this that you feel are too expensive based on your assumptions of how they're made and by comparing them to ar rifles that are restricted. G Atrs is building something that helps us around those laws, building them one at a time and I expect them to be more expensive. (but I wish they weren't lol)

My other problem is bullshit, if they sold the gun and said that the only thing special about it is that it's non-restricted, you're paying because were the only ones making it and it's non-restricted, you want non-restricted you gotta pay and it's gonna be more expensive because were a small shop and can't turn out high volume/distribute costs like the big guys. I'd be perfectly fine with that and wouldn't be saying any of this, but claim that it's a sub MOA marksman long range capable rifle, turn out the excuse parade, diss the users or always blame them in some way for somehow doing something wrong when no other product has those issues. I don't give the products the maple syrup pass where I overlook issues just because it's a small Canadian business trying hard. If something is lacking, it's gonna get called out and I don't see anything wrong with bashing in that case.


Well, in defense, my $3000 ACR DMR isn't a bad rifle, but it does nothing spectacularly better than an AR, and it happens to weigh more. While I definitely purchased it for it's NR status, I fail to understand why an American would have interest in one.

That's a different gun altogether, I can't play the economies of scale card because nobody else makes it. It's entirely different thus has it's own set of disadvantages/advantages. A comparison could be made but it wouldn't be nearly as simple. I don't think a $3000 ACR is bad value for a non-restricted rifle and I think the rifle has it's own set of advantages over an AR pattern gun.

Rory McCanuck
03-27-2017, 12:43 PM
So, anywhere in all of this, did anyone say or ask how clean the barrel was?
Just curious.

50 B.M.G.
03-27-2017, 12:47 PM
After receiving special permission from the site owner to respond one reply to this thread, here is the official reply from ATRS.

The plain and simple facts here are:
Ryan purchased a USED rifle that was on consignment from us.
Ryan contacted us when the charge handle sheared off. Why it sheared off is open for speculation but none the less we did not question a part failure, we immediately shipped him replacement parts under warranty.
This particular rifle had been tested for accuracy by 4 members of my staff ALL of which were able to attain 1MOA or better groups from this rifle with factory ammo.

At no point since we replaced the charge handle for him has there been any contact whatsoever from Ryan.
IF he was experiencing problems we would have looked after them regardless of what was entailed. We take our clients concerns very seriously.

Rather than contact us with any concerns he chose instead to take the time to shoot a rather dubious video in order to slag the rifle and try to do as much damage to ATRS reputation as possible. His motives are rather unclear at this point, and certainly not something a person with any expensive item would normally do, so I question his motives completely.

Please note that since his posting, the warranty on this particular rifle is now null and void. We have the serial number recorded and knowing he has been trying to sell this rifle there will be absolutely no warranty extended to any owner of this particular rifle. We would hate to see an innocent party get duped into purchasing a rifle that possibly has been tampered with, so potential buyers of this particular rifle beware.


Any firearm can be "made" to perform as poorly as one desires, but this dubious video and commentary in no way can be construed to be an accurate portrayal. There are a few reviews of the MH from reputable and unbiased, true Industry Experts online as well as in print and will be more in the near future. I can't fault folks for taking videos shot by ATRS staff as promotional advertising, but several real reviews exist from outside sources.

Ryan, lend me your AI rifle and I can make a video portraying it to be the worst POS on the planet too.

I am not going to comment on his lack of professionalism, several others already have, but I wonder how many firearms businesses would not now consider him persona non grata if this is how he operates?


There are many incorrect statements made in the thread that I would like to correct.

The price of the basic rifle is $3650.00, not the much higher amounts being thrown around. What a person opts to add to the basic rifle has nothing to do with what the rifles base unit costs. The differences between a base model rifle and the most expensive version possible are strictly in the furniture options unless the Proof Research CFW barrel is ordered. The Proof barrels have a significantly higher cost than the Lilja stainless steel barrels do. BUT an optional upgraded handguard or stock or even CFW barrel does not effect the operation or accuracy of the rifle.

Ammo, shooters ability, shooters form and stability, the care and precision in making reloads ALL play a huge part in whether a semi auto operates correctly and plays a huge part in the accuracy one can achieve from the rifle.

The adding in of tax and shipping costs? They are NOT part of the rifles cost so why inflate the numbers other than for dramatic effect?

Why is it that there are so many guys making statements that are supposed to be taken as factual, when they have not owned 1 of our rifles, never seen our shop or the invoices for the supplied parts that we do not make and generally have no clue about what goes on here? BUT it happens regularly on all of the forums.
The exaggerated claims being made on the cost of the rifle are totally for effect and to create better drama.

Last fact. We have well over 500 of these rifles out in circulation and the instance of concerns from clients has been extremely low. If all were even close to what is being alleged here and especially in today's age of information availability why do we still have a better than 6 month back log on orders?

hawk-i
03-27-2017, 01:53 PM
The warranty on this rifle is Null and Void because you don't like the posting???

RangeBob
03-27-2017, 02:20 PM
ATRS warrantee


Terms and Conditions

Warranty

All Alberta Tactical Rifle Supply ("ATRS") rifles & ATRS manufactured parts are only warranted by ATRS. Any repairs or modifications of any kind performed by any person or business other than ATRS will void the warranty. ATRS will only warranty the parts of the rifle built by ATRS. All other manufactures parts and components on the rifle are the sole responsibility of said manufacturer.

All other products are under the manufactures warranty and are not the responsibility of Alberta tactical rifle supply.

Transportation to and from our repair facilities, government fees, damage caused by failure to perform normal maintenance, sales outside Canada, damage due to high velocity, high pressure, reloaded or other nonstandard ammunition, or any unauthorized repair, modification, misuse, abuse, or alteration of the product is not covered under Warranty.

ATRS will not be held liable for semiautomatic rifle magazine feeding issues. To many variances occur between magazine dimensions and the different ammunition fed through them. We ensure functionality prior to selling each rifle by test firing each one.

All Shipping charges are the responsibility of the customer. Please package your item adequately so it is protected for shipment.

Warranty items will be returned to the customer with a Shipping & Handling charge.

-- hxxps://albertatacticalrifle.com/why-us/faq/39-terms-and-conditions

50 B.M.G.
03-27-2017, 02:57 PM
The warranty on this rifle is Null and Void because you don't like the posting???

No because we have no idea of how much tampering has been done and do not want the liability.

hawk-i
03-27-2017, 03:38 PM
No because we have no idea of how much tampering has been done and do not want the liability.

Hmmmmmm....or even if ANY tampering has been done!

enerflex
03-27-2017, 04:19 PM
No because we have no idea of how much tampering has been done and do not want the liability.

I could understand that, if tampering or modifications were done without the manufacturer knowing it could cause issues.

At the same token if sold to a new user, shouldn't ATRS be able to know if something was done? I mean it is your design, and if so then no warranty would be carried??

I mean if the creator of the video did sell it, why punish the new buyer just cause he wanted an ATRS MH??

But regardless unless ATRS ever gets it back we will never know if it was tampered with.

zulu
03-27-2017, 04:40 PM
I'd have to be super rich to buy a rifle of this price for the sole purpose of tempering with it to make it shoot bad and look bad.

Buster
03-27-2017, 06:18 PM
I find myself in a peculiar position here... I find myself believing those are indeed factory hornady loads, and tris is not the first time I've seen reports of hornady showing over pressure signs.

Couple that to assuming this chamber and freebore may be on the tighter side to enhance accuracy... Resulting in an exponential pressure increase.

Personally I don't care. I'd be hand loading. Short jump with mag length cartridges... Perfect.

I'd be really interested in an unbiased expert gun smith inspecting this. Anyone?

The accuracy reported here means nothing to me. I can provide targets that show how my precision rifle gos from bug holes on sand bags to a scatter pattern like this as soon as those bipod feet hit the dirt.

I'm not a fan of the single point scope mounts either, that's another thing I'd change. Put a 2 point on there, shoot off a sand bag and see what we get.

A rifle is not a complex item. A chamber concentric to a half decent barrel, with a bolt that head spaces correctly on properly sized casings, loaded to an length that that particular Bullet likes, topped off with a secure and functioning optic and it will shoot. The rest is cosmetic.

This is why a $400 axis can shoot.

Moving parts don't matter.

Looks don't matter.



Again in my opinion the target means nothing to me because this was shot off a bipod. The chosen coal/jump for these bullets may be the absolut worst possible size for them and there's something wrong with the resizing die setting.

This video entirely pointless until those things are sorted out. Swap the scope, put a 2 point base on, tune some loads off a bag, try various bullets with various lengths, various charges and I'm sure you will find the pot of gold.

But those over pressures... That is interesting.

None the less, I'd be a confident purchaser warranty or not. I'd be confident I could make it work and that there is not a defect with the rifle, just a combination of hot hornady and tight chamber. But I'd love to hear an experts finding on that rifle.

Buster
03-27-2017, 06:53 PM
To be honest, given my experience shooting off bi-pods I'm impressed with the group. I am not ashamed to post my targets from the last time I had that rifle out to confirm the zero offset comparison dope to my dead rest dope. I've even got 2 dope profiles for each load... Bipod or bagged. I've invested a lot of time to come to my current load of 77.3gr h1000, 210gr bergers, at 3.495", brass is anally sorted... Each load out they are first annealed, neck sized, trimmed, weighed, volume measured then sorted. Charge weights are adjusted by 0.01gr per case 1gr. Iirc my sd is 4fps, Es was something like 11 or 13.

When I do my part, it's bug holes. Under .3moa on a good day.

Off the bipod, it's an accident to get under 1.5'moa. To be entirely honest they will average over 2moa.

Maybe it's just me but I can not shoot off the bipod at all. I'm probably not the only person.

Dewey Cox
03-27-2017, 07:03 PM
Honestly, I'd never heard of "Life line warrior medicine" before.
If you believe all publicity is good publicity, then I guess this was a good video?
Won't get me tuning in, though.

hawk-i
03-27-2017, 07:29 PM
I don't see much difference in any of my rifles shooting off a bi-pod as compared to a rest....also the other gun in this video was shot the same way. :)

JustBen
03-27-2017, 07:51 PM
Aren't Hornady match rounds crimped primer pockets?

Canuck
03-27-2017, 07:53 PM
Aren't Hornady match rounds crimped primer pockets?

Not the ones I use. Different lots perhaps?

JustBen
03-27-2017, 08:46 PM
Not the ones I use. Different lots perhaps?

Could be. That's why I asked.

Crimped primer pockets is why I stopped using Hornady match brass.

Booletsnotreactwell
03-28-2017, 01:57 AM
This is literally more entertaining than Steve Wilkos.

EDIT: Removed the links, apparently this is considered "dragging board wars", whatever I don't need a ban. All I can say is do your research.

mister donut
03-29-2017, 02:47 PM
This is literally more entertaining than Steve Wilkos.

EDIT: Removed the links, apparently this is considered "dragging board wars", whatever I don't need a ban. All I can say is do your research.

Links are useless anyway as the thread looks like it got nuked at the other site.

Sabio
03-29-2017, 06:29 PM
I don't see much difference in any of my rifles shooting off a bi-pod as compared to a rest....also the other gun in this video was shot the same way. :)

So you are not really any good with either then.......... ;)

And on that Bombshell....

I think that somewhere, sometime, some people have to get their heads out of their butts and realize that this is a Hunting Rifle. It is NOT a Precision Sniper Rifle made to shoot quarters @ 800 Meters.
Everytime a rifle comes out people automatically want MOA tests and unless it's sub-moa it's junk. 2 MOA is the standard people, we all know that. Deal with it.

hawk-i
03-29-2017, 07:08 PM
So you are not really any good with either then.......... ;)

And on that Bombshell....

I think that somewhere, sometime, some people have to get their heads out of their butts and realize that this is a Hunting Rifle. It is NOT a Precision Sniper Rifle made to shoot quarters @ 800 Meters.
Everytime a rifle comes out people automatically want MOA tests and unless it's sub-moa it's junk. 2 MOA is the standard people, we all know that. Deal with it.

LOL, at some point people need to know what they are taking about before commenting on certain subjects....Rick from ATRS came right out and said prior to selling the first MH rifle they will be capable of .5-.75 MOA and made rude mention of the poor 1.5 MOA accuracy of the XCR-M.

It is what it is...I hope they (the Modern Hunter and Varminter) eventually prove out to be what Rick stated they would be. When they do, I will buy one!

RangeBob
03-29-2017, 07:47 PM
Rick from ATRS came right out and said prior to selling the first MH rifle they will be capable of .5-.75 MOA

I thought ATRS verifies each Modern Hunter is 1 MOA or better before it leaves the shop, by putting a few rounds through it.
As in some may be capable of 0.75 MOA, but if 0.5 MOA is what you're chasing you should not get a Modern Hunter, get a bolt action instead.


Truth in accuracy reporting (Rant)

I'm so sick and tired of hearing about all these outlandish accuracy claims folks like to make about their guns and the belief that if a gun doesn't shoot sub MOA it's a piece of junk with some kind of problem. In this rant I would like to outline a few guidelines that would go a long ways to making internet accuracy claims much more helpful rather than being pure hyperbole

ONE

Don't make any kind of claim of accuracy on a 3 shot group, You're only 3/5th of the way to a useful indication of potential accuracy with a 3 shot group. Just about any rifle will luck itself into great looking 3 shot groups from time to time. Even the junkiest rifle stands chance of "missing" in the same direction thrice however this likelihood is greatly reduced with a five shot group. which leads me to no2

TWO

Accuracy of your firearm cannot be claimed from ONE lucky group. You must take the good groups and average em in with the bad. In my opinion four 5 shot strings is the MINIMUM to even begin to make any serious claims.

THREE

Understand that every rifle is it's own individual, just because the rem700 you bought shoots 3/4" groups is no guarantee that the rifle that was sitting behind it on the rack will do the same.

FOUR

Don't ever use the cliché "All day long" when making an accuracy claim, as soon as most read those words most assume guideline No2 applies

FIVE

I don't care if you use millimeters or inches, decimals or fractions for the love of god drop the measurements based on US currency. International members may not know how large a dime is and even if so depending on caliber a rifle that would shoot into a dime "all day long" would be benchrest grade. When you apply this claim to a 10/22 or an marlin336 people instantly don't believe you

SIX

Learn how to measure groups properly, groups size is determined by the extreme spread minus the bullet diameter. If you don't want to do the math and your groups aren't one ragged hole simply measure distance to the edge of the farthest holes on the same side

........rant mode now on standby........

hxxps://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/truth-in-accuracy-reporting-rant.415997/#post-5192880

no-one special
03-29-2017, 08:22 PM
Links are useless anyway as the thread looks like it got nuked at the other site.

Yes it did get nuked by the admin over there which was actually unfortunate for ATRS.

no-one special
05-17-2017, 08:12 PM
LOL, at some point people need to know what they are taking about before commenting on certain subjects....Rick from ATRS came right out and said prior to selling the first MH rifle they will be capable of .5-.75 MOA and made rude mention of the poor 1.5 MOA accuracy of the XCR-M.

It is what it is...I hope they (the Modern Hunter and Varminter) eventually prove out to be what Rick stated they would be. When they do, I will buy one!

Here is the most recent 3rd party review I have seen on the Varmint. My only thoughts were if the fellow doing the shooting had used a rear bag his groups should have been better. Apart from that a decent and semi professional review.
https://hoplitetactical.com/articles/105-gun-reviews/270-alberta-tacitcal-rifle-supply-modern-varminter-100m-groups

Westicle
05-17-2017, 08:57 PM
in before the lock....

considering those groups were shot with Agulia .223 Remington 55grain FMJ, those groups are impressive.

Rory McCanuck
05-17-2017, 10:41 PM
Bi-pod, no bags, no cool downs, not rushing, but he wasn't real slow about it, using the cheapest factory ammo you can find, I think those are pretty good results.

Booletsnotreactwell
05-19-2017, 07:05 AM
I take it none of you guys are in the loop as to what happened with Hoplite tactical supply?

Mark-II
05-19-2017, 07:39 AM
So, because someone pissed ATRS off they do them one in the eye back by baseless voiding of warranty.

Someone else for the Never Do Business With list

Grizz Axxemann
05-19-2017, 11:00 AM
I take it none of you guys are in the loop as to what happened with Hoplite tactical supply?

I heard a something a couple years back on the other site, but can't remember. Care to give a quick Cole's Notes version to jog my memory?

Westicle
05-19-2017, 11:11 AM
I heard a something a couple years back on the other site, but can't remember. Care to give a quick Cole's Notes version to jog my memory?

went insolvent, refused to pay people back deposits they had for pre-orders and then start selling "stuff" under his personal account on CGN while denying it was actually store stock and that everything was personally owned....

and then told people they would get a refund after he sold the business..... and yeah, that never happened.

or that's what i have heard.....

Booletsnotreactwell
05-20-2017, 06:26 AM
went insolvent, refused to pay people back deposits they had for pre-orders and then start selling "stuff" under his personal account on CGN while denying it was actually store stock and that everything was personally owned....

and then told people they would get a refund after he sold the business..... and yeah, that never happened.

or that's what i have heard.....

Basically this. So Hoplite is a bag of crap in my books.

As for the video review and the accuracy claims, guess what I actually believe them. I don't doubt that this rifle when properly functioning can actually get MOA or sub MOA levels of precision. Guys get that with AR15's as well and guess what these rifles use AR15 pattern barrels and bolts. If you get that right, that's 95% of the precision right there.

The guy from Mystic Precision over at the other site showed a Norinco CQA with an extremely high precision barrel and a headspaced bolt for it, sub MOA even while everything else is sub standard and/or value parts at best.

That's the thing that gets me, there's no mr sub secret sauce or mac sauce effect at play. So when a guy can plug in the same bolt/barrel combo to a $600 CQA and get that same level of precision people will ask you, well what makes up for the $2800 difference?

The proper answer would be...

Hey, we made minor changes to the AR design making it incompatible with normal AR receivers, it's classified non-restricted, it's made in Canada and due to the economies of scale it's more expensive for less in some departments and the kicker, it's non-restricted and only we make it so if you want it you have to pay.

Would never have heard anything from me with that explanation, would have been like hey cool whatever floats your boat, fills a niche and it's cool.


Pretend there's some secret sauce mystical mojo worked into it and the only thing I have to go on is price. I'm gonna compare it to $3000 H&K precision semi-auto rifles, KACs, LMT's, etc... And pretty much all of the criticism I've ever dealt with is in that regard, when I compare to similarly priced, very similar functioning semi-auto rifles.

firemachine69
05-20-2017, 06:29 AM
went insolvent, refused to pay people back deposits they had for pre-orders and then start selling "stuff" under his personal account on CGN while denying it was actually store stock and that everything was personally owned....

and then told people they would get a refund after he sold the business..... and yeah, that never happened.

or that's what i have heard.....



What were the deposits for? Guns?

Watsknew
10-28-2018, 06:17 PM
http://i1277.photobucket.com/albums/y483/mel_ester/IMG_0655_zpse3tb5utz.jpeg (http://s1277.photobucket.com/user/mel_ester/media/IMG_0655_zpse3tb5utz.jpeg.html)
Here is the factory Hornady match 155 gr brass and factory match 168 gr brass fired in temps around -2*c
http://i1277.photobucket.com/albums/y483/mel_ester/IMG_0635_zpskbdrmkbw.jpg (http://s1277.photobucket.com/user/mel_ester/media/IMG_0635_zpskbdrmkbw.jpg.html)
Here is the charging handle that broke after about 3 rounds down range when I first purchased the rifle.
http://i1277.photobucket.com/albums/y483/mel_ester/IMG_0566_zpsyqkyj6u5.jpg (http://s1277.photobucket.com/user/mel_ester/media/IMG_0566_zpsyqkyj6u5.jpg.html)
Here is the target that was set up which makes the grouping look bigger then it actually is. Because of the colour changing paper



A combat medic, not exactly the best background for precision shooting. No offense, overseas they did miracles but not with a firearm. Your video is extremely poorly done and leaves a lot of questions regarding the group size. I have an infidel .308 and it honestly shoots 1/4” 10 shot groups with handloads, I’ve done it a few times, it’s an amazing firearm. I know we’re talking bolt action vs semi but it does prove that ATRS can produce extremely accurate firearms. I saw your little reply where you said you learned to eject a hang fire on basic training. Please keep it real, as a medic you would’ve received virtually non existent weapons training, it doesn’t give you credibility. Take care.

LifeLine
11-06-2018, 06:26 PM
You obviously have no idea who I am. I’ve been competing at an international level for 19 years. My shooting extends well beyond basic training. I’ve taken dozens of courses and fired hundreds of thousands of rounds. But hey if your drinking the KoolAid

no-one special
11-06-2018, 09:52 PM
You obviously have no idea who I am. I’ve been competing at an international level for 19 years. My shooting extends well beyond basic training. I’ve taken dozens of courses and fired hundreds of thousands of rounds. But hey if your drinking the KoolAid

Well Your shooting sure does not show it. Inquiring minds would love to know which shoots you compete at and where you place. I think I already know however.
IF you were nearly as competent as you claim why does your video show such amateur skills?

Dewey Cox
11-06-2018, 10:19 PM
Nothing good will come of the resurrection of this thread.