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View Full Version : Rumoured Trudeau cabinet shuffle this summer may see Sajjan out as Minister of Defence.



soulchaser
06-14-2017, 08:01 PM
So, I've posted an article in the past regarding rumours of ANOTHER Trudeau cabinet shuffle this summer and possible proroguation of parliament in September.

There are now quiet rumblings in the halls of parliament that Sajjan will be gone from Defence.

The problem: His replacemet is rumoured to be another proven liar, Andrew Leslie.

M1917 Enfield
06-14-2017, 08:41 PM
Yeah, he is a real slimy character too, and probably not much better than Sajjan the stolen valour lair!

Andrew Leslie does not even live in the same riding he represents.

I hear that people from that riding never have seen him there since he got elected after he had Justine kick out the longtime running Lieberal candidate David Bertschi and parachute in his new substitute, Leslie.

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/politics/police-break-up-noisy-scuffle-at-meeting-to-nominate-andrew-leslie-as-liberal-candidate-in-ottawa-orleans

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/andrew-leslie-s-liberal-nomination-win-draws-protest-1.2864099

Also Leslie charged taxpayers $72,000 in travel, food allowance and real estate costs to move home only 2 blocks after selling his first Ottawa house and pocketing a profit of $650,000 on the home they sold, which they first bought 13 year before hand for $400,000.

He got $1,050,000 for the sale of his home.

His new smaller home only 2 blocks away from his other home cost him $750,000 and his daughter was the real estate agent on the sale with the $72,000 commission expense. He then soon after took out a new mortgage of $1.1 million on his new home that cost him $750,000 after paying off the first mortgage.

http://ottawacitizen.com/news/national/former-generals-daughter-did-not-benefit-from-controversial-house-sale

Lee Enfield
06-14-2017, 09:36 PM
TURDeau is the captain of the Titanic.

His cabinet appears to have been a attempt to be politically correct not for capability.

Goodale..laughable
Sajjin..a disgrace.
Freeland...out of her league.

Endless stupdity.

soulchaser
06-14-2017, 09:53 PM
Yeah, he is a real slimy character too, and probably not much better than Sajjan the stolen valour lair!

Andrew Leslie does not even live in the same riding he represents.

I hear that people from that riding never have seen him there since he got elected after he had Justine kick out the longtime running Lieberal candidate David Bertschi and parachute in his new substitute, Leslie.

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/politics/police-break-up-noisy-scuffle-at-meeting-to-nominate-andrew-leslie-as-liberal-candidate-in-ottawa-orleans

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/andrew-leslie-s-liberal-nomination-win-draws-protest-1.2864099

Also Leslie charged taxpayers $72,000 in travel, food allowance and real estate costs to move home only 2 blocks after selling his first Ottawa house and pocketing a profit of $650,000 on the home they sold, which they first bought 13 year before hand for $400,000.

He got $1,050,000 for the sale of his home.

His new smaller home only 2 blocks away from his other home cost him $750,000 and his daughter was the real estate agent on the sale with the $72,000 commission expense. He then soon after took out a new mortgage of $1.1 million on his new home that cost him $750,000 after paying off the first mortgage.

http://ottawacitizen.com/news/national/former-generals-daughter-did-not-benefit-from-controversial-house-sale

Worse than that Leslie claimed Croat forces were committing war crimes by intentionally bombing women and children.

The UN investigated and found no evidence.

There was a trial he testified at and he attempted to get a couple officers who were under him to lie under oath and support his story.

While Leslie was under oath he had to admit he never actually saw any bombing of women and children.

He has also been given Meritorious Service Medal that some say is unwarranted.

Doug_M
06-15-2017, 04:43 AM
He has also been given Meritorious Service Medal that some say is unwarranted.

All senior officers and NCMs get that.

Billythreefeathers
06-15-2017, 06:01 AM
Leslie is a liberal,, that's all you need to know,,

Petamocto
06-15-2017, 07:11 AM
All senior officers and NCMs get that.

That is a very false statement; it is not even remotely close to that.

A rough estimate may put the number at something like 10% of senior members having this medal.

Granted it is likely less than 1% of soldiers having the medal, so there is a perception that way more senior people have it.

Therefore yes, technically 10x more senior people have it than junior people, but it is still nowhere even remotely close to "all"; it's not even a quarter.

glockfan
06-15-2017, 07:20 AM
if the turd was responsible, he would shuffle himself, and take the back bencher spot. his tenure as PM is
a shame and doesn't worth what exit the rear end of my cats.

soulchaser
06-15-2017, 07:22 AM
All senior officers and NCMs get that.

But Leslie was awarded one for allegedly saving 40 civilians during a battle.

Some who were there say he didn't.

M1917 Enfield
06-15-2017, 07:29 AM
http://aleslie.liberal.ca/biography/


MEET ANDREW LESLIE


Born into a multi-generational military family, Andrew enjoyed a decorated 35 year career with the Canadian Armed Forces. His career has included a variety of command and staff positions in numerous overseas postings with the UN and NATO. In addition to his extensive military experience in Canada, involving disaster relief in floods and the 1998 Quebec ice storm, Andrew has served on international missions included leading troops in Germany, Cyprus, the former Yugoslavia, and, most recently, Afghanistan. In 2006, he became Chief of the Land Staff/Army Commander- a position he held until 2010, during which time he was responsible for 57,000 military and public service personnel, their equipment, military training and related infrastructure. In 2011 he was appointed the Chief of Transformation until his retirement.

General Leslie’s service has been recognized on numerous occasions; among his Canadian distinctions, he was appointed Commander of the Order of Military Merit in 2005 and was awarded the Meritorious Service Cross. Internationally, he was appointed a Commander of the U.S. Legion of Merit in 2007 and was awarded the Commander’s Cross of the Order of Merit of the Republic of Poland in 2010.

After a successful career in the Canadian military, Andrew retired in 2011, and worked as a senior vice president of, CGI Group Inc., a Canadian information technology corporation. In 2013, he founded his own consulting firm specializing in leadership and strategy. His professional experience is complemented by several academic degrees and courses focusing on economics, history, leadership, strategy, tactics, equipment acquisition and management. He attended the University of Ottawa for his Bachelor’s degree in Economics, the Royal Military College for his MA, as well as professional development at the Harvard Business School in Management.

After leaving the military, Mr. Leslie continued to be an active member of his local and Canadian military communities; he was a member of the advisory committee of the Prince of Wales Charities in Canada; he was the Chair of the Board of Directors of the Royal Canadian Artillery Association and a board member of Opera Lyra Ottawa.

Mr. Leslie was elected as Member of Parliament for the Liberal Party of Canada representing Orléans in October 2015. He was the co-chair of the Liberal Party of Canada for the International Advisory Committee, focusing on foreign affairs, defence, veterans, international trade, international aid, security, immigration and cyber security. In his first term, Mr. Leslie held the role of Chief Government Whip and is now the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Foreign Affairs with special responsibilities for Canada-US relations.

M1917 Enfield
06-15-2017, 07:55 AM
More about Andy -

Andrew Leslie was born in Ottawa in 1957. His father was Brigadier General Edward Murray Dalziel Leslie (né McNaughton), commander of 1st Regiment, Royal Canadian Horse Artillery (1 RCHA) during the Korean War.

Leslie's father changed the family name from McNaughton to Leslie in order to comply with the terms of an inheritance from his aunt (and wife of James Norman Stuart Leslie, who was descendent of British Army Captain James Norman Stewart Leslie and General David Leslie).

His paternal grandfather is former Chief of the General Staff and Minister of National Defence General Andrew McNaughton, and his maternal grandfather is former Canadian Minister of National Defence Brooke Claxton.

Lt.-Gen. Andrew Leslie has responded calmly to questions during the past three days as a witness in the trial of Ante Gotovina at the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia, the CBC's David Common reported from the city, where both the tribunal and the International Criminal Court are based.

Leslie, now chief of the land staff, was a senior soldier with the UN mission in Croatia in 1995 as heavy fighting broke out between Serb and Croat forces.

In news reports from 1995, Leslie insisted Croat forces were targeting civilians in the town, actions that would constitute a war crime.

On the stand, Leslie acknowledged he did not personally witness such attacks but thought they had happened. As lawyers noted, UN investigators found no evidence of them.

The defence team believes the inconsistency may force prosecutors to drop some of the charges against Gotovina.

In their attempts to discredit Leslie, Gotovina's lawyers also called into question the Meritorious Service Medal he received in 2004 after numerous years of service. The medal recognises Leslie's overall outstanding achievements, including a commendation for his rescue of 40 United Nations personnel during the fighting in Knin in August 1995.

When asked on the stand, Leslie acknowledged he wasn't actually there when the rescue took place.

The Department of National Defence issued a statement to defend the award.

"Furthermore, the rescue operation as cited is but one demonstration of General Leslie's leadership as Chief of Staff, Sector South HQ in Croatia. It was for his overall performance during the operation that General Leslie received the award."

DND spokesman Doug Drever also admitted the 40 people rescued in Knin were not UN employees but maybe Serbian civilians.

When asked whether Leslie was present during the rescue, the DND spokesman never confirmed that but instead said, all I can say is "The general was in command during the operation."

Apparently his homemade jams are nice -

http://wpmedia.ottawacitizen.com/2016/11/do-not-use-prior-to-ottawa-citizen-style-use-ashley.jpeg?quality=55&strip=all

triq
06-15-2017, 08:52 AM
Unfortunately for me he is my mp.

Sent from my SM-G925W8 using Tapatalk

triq
06-15-2017, 09:03 AM
Yeah, he is a real slimy character too, and probably not much better than Sajjan the stolen valour lair!

Andrew Leslie does not even live in the same riding he represents.

I hear that people from that riding never have seen him there since he got elected after he had Justine kick out the longtime running Lieberal candidate David Bertschi and parachute in his new substitute, Leslie.

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/politics/police-break-up-noisy-scuffle-at-meeting-to-nominate-andrew-leslie-as-liberal-candidate-in-ottawa-orleans

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/andrew-leslie-s-liberal-nomination-win-draws-protest-1.2864099

Also Leslie charged taxpayers $72,000 in travel, food allowance and real estate costs to move home only 2 blocks after selling his first Ottawa house and pocketing a profit of $650,000 on the home they sold, which they first bought 13 year before hand for $400,000.

He got $1,050,000 for the sale of his home.

His new smaller home only 2 blocks away from his other home cost him $750,000 and his daughter was the real estate agent on the sale with the $72,000 commission expense. He then soon after took out a new mortgage of $1.1 million on his new home that cost him $750,000 after paying off the first mortgage.

http://ottawacitizen.com/news/national/former-generals-daughter-did-not-benefit-from-controversial-house-sale
All of the links you provided are expired.

Oops. Never mind. My client site may have been blocking them.

Sent from my SM-G925W8 using Tapatalk

Doug_M
06-15-2017, 10:36 AM
That is a very false statement; it is not even remotely close to that.

A rough estimate may put the number at something like 10% of senior members having this medal.

Granted it is likely less than 1% of soldiers having the medal, so there is a perception that way more senior people have it.

Therefore yes, technically 10x more senior people have it than junior people, but it is still nowhere even remotely close to "all"; it's not even a quarter.

Let me correct myself then. All senior officers and NCM's in the air force and navy get it. Petamocto's mileage may vary.

M1917 Enfield
06-15-2017, 10:59 AM
Let me correct myself then. All senior officers and NCM's in the air force and navy get it. Petamocto's mileage may vary.

On 6 June 1991, the Meritorious Service Medal was created to recognise highly professional acts that are of considerable benefit, to the Canadian Forces by military personnel, and to the nation by civilians.

The medal has a little known fact, that is, it is issued to both military and civilians and that a lot of civilians have also been awarded the Meritorious Service Medal (Canada) besides just military members.

Since 1991 approx. 775 MSM's have been issued to military members (mostly to Officer and SNCO ranks) and 471 to civilians as of June 2017

Doug_M
06-15-2017, 11:52 AM
Let me correct myself then. All senior officers and NCM's in the air force and navy get it. Petamocto's mileage may vary.

My apologies Petamocto. I was thinking of the MMM. Obviously a very different thing.

RangeBob
06-15-2017, 11:54 AM
MMM.

Order of Military Merit ?

Doug_M
06-15-2017, 12:44 PM
Order of Military Merit ?

MMM specifically is Member of Military Merit. There is also CMM and OMM (Command and Officer).

M1917 Enfield
06-15-2017, 12:46 PM
My apologies Petamocto. I was thinking of the MMM. Obviously a very different thing.

That makes more sense, so far 3,368 military members have received the Order of Military Merit Medal since its inception in 1972.

Coke
06-15-2017, 07:58 PM
Unfortunately for me he is my mp.

Sent from my SM-G925W8 using Tapatalk

Unfortunately for me, he was my Battery Commander, A Bty, 1 RCHA, while I was in Lahr. We moved at least twice as often as every other Battery... He's a prick of the highest order!!!

Petamocto
06-15-2017, 08:08 PM
Unfortunately for me, he was my Battery Commander, A Bty, 1 RCHA, while I was in Lahr. We moved at least twice as often as every other Battery... He's a prick of the highest order!!!

I have been both a junior ranking soldier and a senior officer, and I can say that your comments may be slightly less than contextually informed.

You may see moving as only negative because that was hard on you at the time, but in hindsight, can you say that you were worse off for it?

Can you honestly say that you were not better trained and more rehearsed than the other Batteries out there?

Don't get me wrong, I have done more than my share of c*ck when I knew there was no training value involved, but at the same time, I can admit that after I have been pull-poled several times per night over and over in the winter, I can say that as much as it sucked, I learned how to have my kit ready to go, and I was able to have my rucksack ready to fight on a moment's notice in case I was overrun.

Once you see things from both sides of the fence, your perspective may change. When you are responsible for results in a higher context, you learn to accept the burden of leadership while trying to balance the welfare of your soldiers with the intent of the mission.

Sometimes that means doing the unpopular thing that makes your troops think you are a "prick of the highest order", even though they end up better off for it.

Even today, as a still serving senior officer, I would be the first to admit that it would suck if I got woken up in the middle of the night with a phone call, just as much as it sucked when I was a private getting woken up with an arty sim, but if there is a general responsible for some sort of standard, then I can accept my discomfort for the sake of the country.

Waterloomike
06-15-2017, 08:12 PM
http://aleslie.liberal.ca/biography/


MEET ANDREW LESLIE


Born into a multi-generational military family, Andrew enjoyed a decorated 35 year career with the Canadian Armed Forces. His career has included a variety of command and staff positions in numerous overseas postings with the UN and NATO. In addition to his extensive military experience in Canada, involving disaster relief in floods and the 1998 Quebec ice storm, Andrew has served on international missions included leading troops in Germany, Cyprus, the former Yugoslavia, and, most recently, Afghanistan. In 2006, he became Chief of the Land Staff/Army Commander- a position he held until 2010, during which time he was responsible for 57,000 military and public service personnel, their equipment, military training and related infrastructure. In 2011 he was appointed the Chief of Transformation until his retirement.

General Leslie’s service has been recognized on numerous occasions; among his Canadian distinctions, he was appointed Commander of the Order of Military Merit in 2005 and was awarded the Meritorious Service Cross. Internationally, he was appointed a Commander of the U.S. Legion of Merit in 2007 and was awarded the Commander’s Cross of the Order of Merit of the Republic of Poland in 2010.

After a successful career in the Canadian military, Andrew retired in 2011, and worked as a senior vice president of, CGI Group Inc., a Canadian information technology corporation. In 2013, he founded his own consulting firm specializing in leadership and strategy. His professional experience is complemented by several academic degrees and courses focusing on economics, history, leadership, strategy, tactics, equipment acquisition and management. He attended the University of Ottawa for his Bachelor’s degree in Economics, the Royal Military College for his MA, as well as professional development at the Harvard Business School in Management.

After leaving the military, Mr. Leslie continued to be an active member of his local and Canadian military communities; he was a member of the advisory committee of the Prince of Wales Charities in Canada; he was the Chair of the Board of Directors of the Royal Canadian Artillery Association and a board member of Opera Lyra Ottawa.

Mr. Leslie was elected as Member of Parliament for the Liberal Party of Canada representing Orléans in October 2015. He was the co-chair of the Liberal Party of Canada for the International Advisory Committee, focusing on foreign affairs, defence, veterans, international trade, international aid, security, immigration and cyber security. In his first term, Mr. Leslie held the role of Chief Government Whip and is now the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Foreign Affairs with special responsibilities for Canada-US relations.

Wow! a genuine hero of the Quebec Ice Storm! A replacement for the ministry of truth and he's pulled rank to get inferiors to lie. Perfect liberal.

IIRC, he did run into some actual fighters at the Orleans Battle hall where his appointment was announced.

This is what represents us, so hold your nose and piss his way.

Petamocto
06-15-2017, 08:24 PM
A lot of super tough guy comments here from people who may have served a couple years during peace time, making insubordinate comments against the Army Commander during the peak of the Afghanistan fighting.

A man who served in the Army for 30+ years and now continues to serve public office.

I hope you feel extra tough behind your keyboards, knowing you've never been in actual danger or stood by a grieving family in Trenton while the casket came off the back of the Herc or C-130.

You guys sure are showing balls by trying to knock someone down a peg from your computer.

How many times have you @$$holes moved your wives from their jobs and kids from their schools for the sake of Canada?

I'm willing to bet a lot less than this man, so know that every time you take a jab at him, you're making fun of someone who has done 10x more for Canada than you have, so what does that say about you?

Waterloomike
06-15-2017, 08:31 PM
A lot of super tough guy comments here from people who may have served a couple years during peace time, making insubordinate comments against the Army Commander during the peak of the Afghanistan fighting.

A man who served in the Army for 30+ years and now continues to serve public office.

I hope you feel extra tough behind your keyboards, knowing you've never been in actual danger or stood by a grieving family in Trenton while the casket came off the back of the Herc or C-130.

You guys sure are showing balls by trying to knock someone down a peg from your computer.

How many times have you @$$holes moved your wives from their jobs and kids from their schools for the sake of Canada?

I'm willing to bet a lot less than this man, so know that every time you take a jab at him, you're making fun of someone who has done 10x more for Canada than you have, so what does that say about you?

It says thats nothing but hot air.

I am willing to bet any piece I have against anything you have that I want, that I'm not the names you're calling me, so put up or shut up.

Petamocto
06-15-2017, 08:47 PM
It says thats nothing but hot air. I am willing to bet any piece I have against anything you have that I want, that I'm not the names you're calling me, so put up or shut up.

If you actually want to go there then I could name the individual medals, multiple wings, or foreign fighters I have had in my sights with the safety off, but my points were not aimed at you individually.

My points were meant more to fight against the tone of this thread from multiple different sources.

And if you actually are a man of honour who has been there and done that, you would be right there with me in defending another man who has served.

No I don't agree with everything General Leslie has ever done or said, but I can respect that he has served Canada for his entire adult life, at great cost to his own personal comfort.

He didn't even retire from the Army to disappear into some high-paying defence contractor job where he'd never be heard from again, he just went from one public service to another so asshats like the people above could continue to play keyboard sniper against him.

Waterloomike
06-15-2017, 08:59 PM
If you actually want to go there then I could name the individual medals, multiple wings, or foreign fighters I have had in my sights with the safety off, but my points were not aimed at you individually.

My points were meant more to fight against the tone of this thread from multiple different sources.

And if you actually are a man of honour who has been there and done that, you would be right there with me in defending another man who has served.

No I don't agree with everything General Leslie has ever done or said, but I can respect that he has served Canada for his entire adult life, at great cost to his own personal comfort.

He didn't even retire from the Army to disappear into some high-paying defence contractor job where he'd never be heard from again, he just went from one public service to another so asshats like the people above could continue to play keyboard sniper against him.

If you value him, that's fine, go ahead.

I don't. And I will say so.

But the keyboard commando crap is poorly placed and you said it right after I posted.

I served in the infantry, in the front. Not in a recent war. Not in the Canadian forces.

Keyboard sniping is free speech. Don't like it, don't read it.

You're keyboard sniping as well. Political figures are completely fair game.

He was party to a practice the turd swore against. So get ready to be hit by a lot of shit when you do that. And for all the other things he's done.

M1917 Enfield
06-15-2017, 09:14 PM
If you actually want to go there then I could name the individual medals, multiple wings, or foreign fighters I have had in my sights with the safety off, but my points were not aimed at you individually.

My points were meant more to fight against the tone of this thread from multiple different sources.

And if you actually are a man of honour who has been there and done that, you would be right there with me in defending another man who has served.

No I don't agree with everything General Leslie has ever done or said, but I can respect that he has served Canada for his entire adult life, at great cost to his own personal comfort.

He didn't even retire from the Army to disappear into some high-paying defence contractor job where he'd never be heard from again, he just went from one public service to another so asshats like the people above could continue to play keyboard sniper against him.

I guess you must of missed where your boyfriend retired from DND to take a cushy job senior vice president at multi-billion dollar mega-corp CGI, who just so happens to do lots of government and DND contract work and then was offered a plum job with the Lieberals by his other boyfriend JT if he would leave CGI?

It's fine if you have a gushy bromance for the guy, we understand that, after all it is 2017 and that sort of thing is now acceptable in Canada! We are just sorry we big bullies offended you by being so mean by writing nasty things about him.

blacksmithden
06-15-2017, 09:47 PM
Liberals are all the same. Meet the new liar...same as the old liar.

soulchaser
06-15-2017, 10:19 PM
A lot of super tough guy comments here from people who may have served a couple years during peace time, making insubordinate comments against the Army Commander during the peak of the Afghanistan fighting.

A man who served in the Army for 30+ years and now continues to serve public office.

I hope you feel extra tough behind your keyboards, knowing you've never been in actual danger or stood by a grieving family in Trenton while the casket came off the back of the Herc or C-130.

You guys sure are showing balls by trying to knock someone down a peg from your computer.

How many times have you @$$holes moved your wives from their jobs and kids from their schools for the sake of Canada?

I'm willing to bet a lot less than this man, so know that every time you take a jab at him, you're making fun of someone who has done 10x more for Canada than you have, so what does that say about you?

So you're saying he didn't lie about the Croats bombing innocent women and children.

He didn't try to get subordinates to lie under oath to support his claims.

He didn't accept a medal for a rescue mission he didn't participate in.

triq
06-16-2017, 04:16 AM
Unfortunately for me, he was my Battery Commander, A Bty, 1 RCHA, while I was in Lahr. We moved at least twice as often as every other Battery... He's a prick of the highest order!!!
I empathize with u.

Sent from my SM-G925W8 using Tapatalk

Coke
06-16-2017, 07:08 PM
I have been both a junior ranking soldier and a senior officer, and I can say that your comments may be slightly less than contextually informed.

You may see moving as only negative because that was hard on you at the time, but in hindsight, can you say that you were worse off for it?

Can you honestly say that you were not better trained and more rehearsed than the other Batteries out there?

Don't get me wrong, I have done more than my share of c*ck when I knew there was no training value involved, but at the same time, I can admit that after I have been pull-poled several times per night over and over in the winter, I can say that as much as it sucked, I learned how to have my kit ready to go, and I was able to have my rucksack ready to fight on a moment's notice in case I was overrun.

Once you see things from both sides of the fence, your perspective may change. When you are responsible for results in a higher context, you learn to accept the burden of leadership while trying to balance the welfare of your soldiers with the intent of the mission.

Sometimes that means doing the unpopular thing that makes your troops think you are a "prick of the highest order", even though they end up better off for it.

Even today, as a still serving senior officer, I would be the first to admit that it would suck if I got woken up in the middle of the night with a phone call, just as much as it sucked when I was a private getting woken up with an arty sim, but if there is a general responsible for some sort of standard, then I can accept my discomfort for the sake of the country.

Sounds typically what an arrogant officer would say. You may have been "a junior ranking soldier", but you've lost where you came from.

Petamocto
06-16-2017, 07:13 PM
Sounds typically what an arrogant officer would say. You may have been "a junior ranking soldier", but you've lost where you came from.

Why, because I'm loyal to Canada? If you've lost track of that, I think you've never known where you're supposed to be fighting for.

I said nothing more than I understand both sides of the fence. It's not arrogant to say you have a well-rounded understanding of a subject.

It's like calling someone arrogant because they've owned both a car and a truck and now they know they pros and cons of each. Would you call them arrogant because you've only ever had one?

Swampdonkey
06-16-2017, 08:06 PM
Is there more to Canada than the Crown? Are law and ethos the same?

Lee Enfield
06-16-2017, 08:09 PM
Why, because I'm loyal to Canada? If you've lost track of that, I think you've never known where you're supposed to be fighting for.

I said nothing more than I understand both sides of the fence. It's not arrogant to say you have a well-rounded understanding of a subject.

It's like calling someone arrogant because they've owned both a car and a truck and now they know they pros and cons of each. Would you call them arrogant because you've only ever had one?

Hey, you were asked a legit question in post 29, why not answer it or would you look like a fool for your thoughts on Leslie?

Failing to answer proves beyond any doubt you have no idea what you are talking about...just like calling a SKS a POS because you are a lousy shot....not trying to derail this thread.

kennymo
06-16-2017, 08:36 PM
not trying to derail this thread.

Too late....

Let's edge away from insults and steer roughly towards topic maybe.....

Petamocto
06-16-2017, 09:04 PM
Hey, you were asked a legit question in post 29, why not answer it or would you look like a fool for your thoughts on Leslie?

Failing to answer proves beyond any doubt you have no idea what you are talking about...just like calling a SKS a POS because you are a lousy shot....not trying to derail this thread.

Quite a few things to unpack there.
1. I actually just missed the question on that post, sorry. My response to it would be that I would have to research more before making a comment on that specific thing you're suggesting.
2. Again, failing to answer it just means that I apparently missed it. You seem to know me enough to know that I don't dodge controversial subjects.
3. An SKS is a POS because it's a POS, it has nothing to do with my aim. My hatred for the SKS has nothing to do with its accuracy and everything to do with it being a cheap POS.

Back on topic, anyone in this thread saying Andrew Leslie is junk, please raise your hand if you are perfect. Nobody? Okay. Next question, please raise your hand if you have sacrificed anything for this country. A few hands, okay, now we're making progress. Now, who has sacrificed as much as or more for their country than Andrew Leslie? Nobody again? Okay, now I understand that we're dealing with internet tough guys and nothing more.

Lee Enfield
06-16-2017, 09:58 PM
Quite a few things to unpack there.
1. I actually just missed the question on that post, sorry. My response to it would be that I would have to research more before making a comment on that specific thing you're suggesting.
2. Again, failing to answer it just means that I apparently missed it. You seem to know me enough to know that I don't dodge controversial subjects.
3. An SKS is a POS because it's a POS, it has nothing to do with my aim. My hatred for the SKS has nothing to do with its accuracy and everything to do with it being a cheap POS.

Back on topic, anyone in this thread saying Andrew Leslie is junk, please raise your hand if you are perfect. Nobody? Okay. Next question, please raise your hand if you have sacrificed anything for this country. A few hands, okay, now we're making progress. Now, who has sacrificed as much as or more for their country than Andrew Leslie? Nobody again? Okay, now I understand that we're dealing with internet tough guys and nothing more.

"Leslie sacrificed as much or more for his country than anyone else", that is beyond laughable. Countless Canadians paid the ultimate sacrifice, many of them were my dad's men did during the Great War so Leslie is nothing special.

From what I see his medals came from being in the service, not a single combat medal so again there is no merit in being awarded a decoration for "time served".

Show me a LIEberal who has done something positive for our military, you can't, but he will do a great job in the eyes of Moonbeam and the likes of Sajjin.

Did a little research for you.....

Leslie was called to the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia (The Hague) as a witness in the war crimes trial of Croatian general Ante Gotovina. Leslie, an artillery officer, testified to indiscriminate shelling of civilian areas by Croatian forces in August 1995,[9] a conclusion rejected by both the appeals chamber of the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia in the Gotovina case and the International Court of Justice in the Croatia–Serbia genocide case.

M1917 Enfield
06-16-2017, 09:58 PM
I'm going to reach out here and say lets give Petamocto the benefit of the doubt that Andy is really just a fantastic dude and back off criticising him for the time being and see how he turns out if he gets the Defence minister position, hell, he can't possibly be any worse than Sajjan has been so far.

And if Andy is just like your typical lying Lieberal (which so far I'm of the strong feeling he is) then we dump on the guy!

After all, no point worrying about it too much at the moment as it is all hypothetical anyhow.

BTW, a more important question is how is he doing for his new constituents in the riding of Orleans that he is supposed to represent? Is he improving their lot in life?

762shooter
06-16-2017, 10:03 PM
Integrity is important for a senior officer (or an officer for that matter) and should be important for members of parliament as well, although this is all too often not true in practice.

Waterloomike
06-17-2017, 01:28 AM
Quite a few things to unpack there.
1. I actually just missed the question on that post, sorry. My response to it would be that I would have to research more before making a comment on that specific thing you're suggesting.
2. Again, failing to answer it just means that I apparently missed it. You seem to know me enough to know that I don't dodge controversial subjects.
3. An SKS is a POS because it's a POS, it has nothing to do with my aim. My hatred for the SKS has nothing to do with its accuracy and everything to do with it being a cheap POS.

Back on topic, anyone in this thread saying Andrew Leslie is junk, please raise your hand if you are perfect. Nobody? Okay. Next question, please raise your hand if you have sacrificed anything for this country. A few hands, okay, now we're making progress. Now, who has sacrificed as much as or more for their country than Andrew Leslie? Nobody again? Okay, now I understand that we're dealing with internet tough guys and nothing more.

I didn't run for office, agree to go along with a 2 faced lying sack of shit pm candidate speaking from whatever side of his mouth was convenient, or rise to General, make up lies, and try to get lower ranks to lie for me.

And it sounds like thats what you're defending as "well rounded".

You've stepped in a steaming pile and trying to defend it as shoe polish.

Petamocto
06-17-2017, 06:11 AM
Lee Enfield,

I actually can show you a couple examples of Liberals working to increase the budget.

Other that the current sketchy increase announced last week that's very delayed, the Paul Martin government actually started increasing the budget a lot in the 2004-2006 timeframe.

I'm not saying that party is best for the military, but you said that I could not show you any examples of a Liberal ever doing anything for the military, and there are.

triq
06-17-2017, 06:18 AM
I'm going to reach out here and say lets give Petamocto the benefit of the doubt that Andy is really just a fantastic dude and back off criticising him for the time being and see how he turns out if he gets the Defence minister position, hell, he can't possibly be any worse than Sajjan has been so far.

And if Andy is just like your typical lying Lieberal (which so far I'm of the strong feeling he is) then we dump on the guy!

After all, no point worrying about it too much at the moment as it is all hypothetical anyhow.

BTW, a more important question is how is he doing for his new constituents in the riding of Orleans that he is supposed to represent? Is he improving their lot in life?

I can honestly say I have never seen him in Orleans. Ever.

How can you represent a riding you don't live in?

Doug_M
06-17-2017, 06:26 AM
Back on topic, anyone in this thread saying Andrew Leslie is junk, please raise your hand if you are perfect. Nobody? Okay. Next question, please raise your hand if you have sacrificed anything for this country. A few hands, okay, now we're making progress. Now, who has sacrificed as much as or more for their country than Andrew Leslie? Nobody again? Okay, now I understand that we're dealing with internet tough guys and nothing more.

You realize you're saying this politician can't be criticized because nobody is perfect and he has military accomplishments right?

I don't know about those who worked with or under him directly, but I do know he didn't have a good reputation in the forces in general. I also know that someone who was in the Forces for as long as he was and during the time frame he was should not be a Liberal. But his "entitled to his entitlements" $70k move down the block shows why he chose that party.

If he is shuffled to MND he will no doubt do a bang up Liberal job of it. You can count on that.

Petamocto
06-17-2017, 07:17 AM
PLEASE READ THIS ENTIRE POST. I don't always say that, but this is the most important post I will ever write about what it's like being in the Army for life.


...$70k move down the block shows why he chose that party...

And that comment is exactly what proves you don't know what you're talking about on this issue, and it is one of the main reasons I'm defending him (because people who don't understand the life are attacking him).

In the Army we have to move every few years (particularly officers, and even more-so for officers on the fast track).

These moves are never on our terms. They are always framed as "You have to move to X location, starting on Y date, and your position there will be Z".

With each move comes telling your wife she has to get a new job, and telling your kids they have to start at a new school and make new friends.

The one time that a member gets to choose where they want to go, and move on their own terms, is their retirement post. No "you have to be there by X hard date", no "you have to move to Y location". Just once, after having the Army juggle you and your family all over the country 5-10 times on tight timelines, you finally get to move on your terms when you get out. You can pick where you want to go, and this move can happen within a year of releasing, so you (for the first time) finally get to sit down and calmly talk about these things with your wife and family, and decide when and where to go. It is not pressured, and you have all sorts of time to research the exact location and type of house you want, and you can move whenever is convenient for you. Not to mention, you can actually wait for the right deal to come on the house you're in now, instead of taking a loss because you have to move now.

When he was in Ottawa, he could have chosen Victoria BC or Halifax NS as his retirement posting, and that would have cost the taxpayer far more money to move that distance. However, he and his family chose that he actually wanted to stay in the same general area, but the house they bought was not in the exact area they wanted, and more importantly, the exact house was not suitable for them; they just bought it because it was one of the few houses for sale at the time Leslie got posted there, and was told "You have to have a house by X date to start Y job".

It's still a guy who has never been able to choose the house or location he wanted, and just like every other retiring member of any rank, he was allowed to get his retirement posting. And if he had spent more money to move farther away, the irony is that nobody would have said anything. However, how does the media spin the story? That he's an entitled @$$hole who moved down the block at great expense, not that his retirement move was as cheap as it could have possibly been, because he did not move that far. Every other soldier or officer who has gone farther away, and cost the taxpayer more money, but Leslie was targeted for spending less money on a shorter move.

So yes, I am defensive about the retirement posting. I have never chosen where I want to live, either, and it would be nice to get to do that on my family's terms when I retire.

Waterloomike
06-17-2017, 07:43 AM
Is enlisting in the military a choice?

Or are candidates ripped from mommy's bosom?

Did you know what you were in for going in? or were you told lies and fairy tales?

If you volunteered, quit whining.

If you don't like it, get out.

Sheesh, you sound pathetic.

Gawd, every body gets the shaft, most of us far worse than that.

SIR VEYOR
06-17-2017, 08:28 AM
I've been in the same system. Depending on where you go, there's quarters available on base. Not always. And the move process must have gotten tougher from what I recall or because it's a different branch. My recollections are from the time of the unified forces concept and not as the member deciding. But there were options to pass, defer, select from, etc.

You want to defend him because he is a fellow member regardless of personality and dishonourable actions. That's where the "keyboard tough guys" are giving you grief. And your tone with them isn't helping much. Maybe give them a hug.

Retirement posting costs is fluff, being a dick to your subordinates is fluff. You can only please those above you or below you. Typically best to pick making above happy, especially if you want to climb ranks. And it's the military. You and by extension your family have agreed to accept the suck.

His reported actions and behaviour which you say you haven't personally researched, is the crux of whether his selection is good or bad. A rep should be as lily white as possible, especially if you're replacing someone of questionable merit. Questionable merit replacing the same, means a lot of flack and discussion is likely.

As these issues of his character and honour seem to be fairly public and easily conformed, he is not suitable to represent the country of Canada on the world stage. While military background is good for that role, it is not essential. He is not the best candidate for that role out of the existing pool of ministers available.

While I can respect your decision and reasoning to join his defence, the underlying flaws are indicating that more research and thought may be needed. Good idea, wrong horse.

Lee Enfield
06-17-2017, 09:59 AM
I judge people by the company they keep and people they support.

Lee Enfield
06-17-2017, 10:01 AM
Lee Enfield,

I actually can show you a couple examples of Liberals working to increase the budget.

Other that the current sketchy increase announced last week that's very delayed, the Paul Martin government actually started increasing the budget a lot in the 2004-2006 timeframe.

I'm not saying that party is best for the military, but you said that I could not show you any examples of a Liberal ever doing anything for the military, and there are.

Talk is cheap, pretty obvious you didn't do your research on Leslie being "full of it" in regard to his testimony on Croats and war crimes...that tells me enough.

Doug_M
06-17-2017, 10:18 AM
OMG Petamocto, what an arrogant post! To assume I (and other ex members) don't know what postings are like, how they work and how frequent they are, simply outrageous!

As for Leslie, I stand by my "entitled to his entitlements" statement with regards to his retirement posting. He may have moved a lot (which is a sacrifice and part of service) but he was a general. You know, the rank that negotiates their salary. He's wealthy but he acted just like Gerald Butts did when he moved from TO to Ottawa.

Billythreefeathers
06-17-2017, 11:05 AM
and in summation he is a liberal,, that is all you need to know

Lee Enfield
06-17-2017, 11:13 AM
Petamocto.

You comment about Leslie and his "sacrifice for Canada" is disgraceful and so disrespectful for those who paid the ultimate sacrifice and never came home, including my uncle from my mothers side of the family who still remains in Italy.

In air force terms for decades Leslie "flew a desk", big deal.

RangeBob
06-17-2017, 11:16 AM
and in summation he is a liberal

The Conservatives asked him to head the Royal Canadian Mounted Police,
but he elected not to answer the call.
( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Leslie_(general) )

Waterloomike
06-17-2017, 12:45 PM
The Conservatives asked him to head the Royal Canadian Mounted Police,
but he elected not to answer the call.
( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Leslie_(general) )

He knew that whoever took the job as a civilian, would have a life that would be a living hell.

So he would have been an excellent choice.

Coke
06-17-2017, 09:08 PM
Why, because I'm loyal to Canada? If you've lost track of that, I think you've never known where you're supposed to be fighting for.

I said nothing more than I understand both sides of the fence. It's not arrogant to say you have a well-rounded understanding of a subject.

It's like calling someone arrogant because they've owned both a car and a truck and now they know they pros and cons of each. Would you call them arrogant because you've only ever had one?

Have you worked with Leslie? I have.

That's the difference - I have the experience with him.

He's a liar, a prick and slimy...

And yes, you are arrogant. Spouting off on a topic you don't know anything about...

Billythreefeathers
06-18-2017, 04:57 AM
had the misfortune to work for him also