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Gunz
10-09-2012, 12:05 AM
Just wondering if anyone has ever seen or used AP Rounds? I believe they are illegal for the average person. (In Canada anyway..)
Anyone here in the military? Thoughts? Benefits vs disadvantages?

jwirecom109
10-09-2012, 12:06 AM
the NFA has a great article on AP rounds

http://www.nfa.ca/resource-items/armour-piercing-ammunition



Armour Piercing Ammunition
Date:
Saturday, February 19, 2005

Armour Piercing Ammunition

is a confusing subject.

Even within the firearms community, not everyone understands what armour piercing ammunition is or how it works. Armour piercing ammunition is NOT any ammunition that can penetrate armour. We also need to define exactly what is armour with respect to the term armour piercing.

Armour piercing bullets are specifically designed to penetrate steel and other metal armour. Armour piercing bullets behave exactly like any other full-metal jacketed bullet until they impact hard steel armour. In fact standard Canadian Military rifle (C7) ammunition, with its SS109 bullet incorporates an armour piercing capability.

So what is Armour Piercing Ammunition?

Armour piercing bullets are a specific design which incorporates a hard steel or tungsten carbide penetrator inside the bullet's core. Only ammunition with this hard penetrator design is considered to be armour piercing. When the bullet impacts armour, it begins to flatten. As the nose flattens, the hard penetrator continues forward into the armoured surface while being supported by the bullet as it continues to flatten.

Armour Piercing bullets do not explode, fragment or do any of the things you might see in a Hollywood movie. They are a simple kinetic energy penetrator. AP bullets are mainly found in military ammunition.

Why would a firearm owner use Armour Piercing ammunition?

Stocks of surplus military ammunition are sold in the retail market every year because it is inexpensive. Military style shooting competition is popular in the firearm community.

It is important to note that armour piercing ammunition is not legal for hunting in Canada because it does not expand as required by game regulations.

Is Armour Piercing ammunition prohibited under the criminal code?

No, it is not. The term "prohibited ammunition" is defined ONLY in Order is Council SOR/98-462. It defines "prohibited ammunition" as, "Any cartridge that is capable of being discharged from a commonly-available semi- automatic handgun or revolver and that is manufactured or assembled with a projectile that is designed, manufactured or altered so as to be capable of penetrating body armour, including KTW, THV and 5.7X28 mm P-90 cartridges."

AP rifle ammunition is not "prohibited ammunition." Certain other ammunition fits the definition, but we are dealing here only with the part of the OIC that deals with AP ammunition.

The definition above is so vague and inadequate that it would probably be thrown out if it ever got to court. For example; How THICK is that "body armour"? Armour made of WHAT?

For more information please contact the freedom@nfa.ca or call (780)439-1394.

lone-wolf
10-09-2012, 07:18 AM
Buy some FMJ, colour the tip black(?) and bam, AP rounds.

blacksmithden
10-10-2012, 10:14 PM
Just wondering if anyone has ever seen or used AP Rounds? I believe they are illegal for the average person. (In Canada anyway..)
Anyone here in the military? Thoughts? Benefits vs disadvantages?

It's not illegal. Some of the clubs around don't allow it for various reasons. Some of my fellow gun owners sent me some of their pulled SKS bullets that they weren't allowed to shoot at their club....some guys still buy the ammo, pull the bullets, and use regular lead/copper jacket bullets. As for the steel core AP bullets....they're nothing special really. Yes, loaded into a 300 win mag cartridge at full pop, they'll drill holes in 1" thick steel gongs, but what's the point of beating them up if you don't have to. I've tried a few reduced loads, and they worked, but weren't that accurate. I'm thinking I might try them in my lever 30-30 since that's the only other 308 caliber I shoot. We'll see how that goes when I get a little time after hunting season.

Drache
10-10-2012, 10:18 PM
I've got a crate of steel core "AP" rounds in 7.62x39 for my CZ 858 and they are neat little things. They will drill through a car engine pretty easily!

Haywire1
10-10-2012, 10:24 PM
30-30 ap rounds? I LOVE IT, THIS MUST BE DONE!!!!!!

Turkeyslayer 1300
10-15-2012, 05:38 PM
We played with some 7.62x54r AP in my SVT-40. SPectacularly shattered Rocks. Had some AP for my .223 Mini 14, it was fun too, coress had a bad habit of bouncing around.

harbl_the_cat
10-23-2012, 12:32 PM
From http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=277057

Specifically:


As is the case with many technological developments, there is no
clear-cut "first" armor-piercing bullet. Ammunition manufacturers
have always been altering the design of bullets to adjust the speed,
penetrating ability and type of damage the bullet can cause. However,
armor-piercing bullets began being referred to as ?cop killers? in the
late 1970's, due to their ability to pierce most types of soft body
armor, and by the early 1980's numerous attempts to legislate such
ammunition were already being drafted.

Even though they are referring to the US, undoubtably, Canadian law now regarding "Armour Piercing" ammunition is typical, ignorant government regulation over a subject they don't really understand. I'd be willing to bet when the legislation/OIC was drafted, the author had recently watched a Dateline special talking about the evil of "Cop-killer" ammunition.

Ironically, 7.62x25 Tokarov round is "Armour Piercing" but I don't believe it was deliberately designed as such, but you can pretty easily find crates of old military surplus for it.

kshackle1962
01-30-2013, 09:34 PM
I recently bought a case of what I believed to be 7.62x39 FMJ steel core milsurp. When I opened the first tin, lo and behold I see a two piece projectile with black lacquer on the tip. This is from a sealed can, so it is legit. I did notice after the fact that the crate had a few different part numbers. Some research indicates that it is Chinese 7.62x39 API. I am not sure of the legal status of this ammo since the "I" stands for incendiary. Any thoughts?

Drache
01-30-2013, 10:01 PM
I recently bought a case of what I believed to be 7.62x39 FMJ steel core milsurp. When I opened the first tin, lo and behold I see a two piece projectile with black lacquer on the tip. This is from a sealed can, so it is legit. I did notice after the fact that the crate had a few different part numbers. Some research indicates that it is Chinese 7.62x39 API. I am not sure of the legal status of this ammo since the "I" stands for incendiary. Any thoughts?

Highly illegal! I'll take them off your hands for the same price as a case of regular milsurp! :D

blacksmithden
01-30-2013, 10:57 PM
I recently bought a case of what I believed to be 7.62x39 FMJ steel core milsurp. When I opened the first tin, lo and behold I see a two piece projectile with black lacquer on the tip. This is from a sealed can, so it is legit. I did notice after the fact that the crate had a few different part numbers. Some research indicates that it is Chinese 7.62x39 API. I am not sure of the legal status of this ammo since the "I" stands for incendiary. Any thoughts?

I'm a cheapskate, but not as much as Drache !!! LOL !!!! I'd love to buy a few of them off you for my collection if I could.

blaxsun
01-31-2013, 07:48 PM
Thoughts? Benefits vs disadvantages?

Almost everything is armour-piercing, so the point is somewhat moot. Standard 5.7x28mm or 5.56mm Nato ballistic tip will punch through anything up to and including Level-III body armour without a ballistic or ceramic plate. I prefer FMJ because it's infinitely cheaper.

Drache
01-31-2013, 08:17 PM
Almost everything is armour-piercing, so the point is somewhat moot. Standard 5.7x28mm or 5.56mm Nato ballistic tip will punch through anything up to and including Level-III body armour without a ballistic or ceramic plate. I prefer FMJ because it's infinitely cheaper.

The term "Armor Piercing" isn't about penetrating soft armor, it's named that due to being able to penetrate armor plates used in vehicles.

7.62x39 AP will punch pretty much clean through a running engine whereas standard ball ammo will not. About the only thing I found the AP wouldn't penetrate was a brake drum off an old car. Barely a dent.

blaxsun
01-31-2013, 08:29 PM
The term "Armor Piercing" isn't about penetrating soft armor, it's named that due to being able to penetrate armor plates used in vehicles.

I didn't realize depleted uranium was an option...

Drache
01-31-2013, 09:22 PM
I didn't realize depleted uranium was an option...

What does depleted Uranium have to do with anything? Armor piercing was designed during WWI to be able to shoot into the First World War Tanks. Some of the WWI armor piercing ammo was made out of stainless steel which was then heat treated to give it a hardness greater than that of the armor of the tank. Then large bored anti-tank rifles which were nothing more than upside versions of the rifle rounds in essence were used. Nowadays standard "armor piercing" rifle rounds are made with Tungsten steel rods. A standard 7.62x39 AP round will penetrate easily half an inch of steel plate and up to 3/4 of an inch. A single round won't make it through 1" but massed fire in the same spot has a good chance of breaking through.

blaxsun
01-31-2013, 09:50 PM
I just figured that since the discussion had progressed to vehicle and armor penetration...

Drache
01-31-2013, 10:04 PM
I just figured that since the discussion had progressed to vehicle and armor penetration...

This thread was about Armor Piercing ammo. That's what it was designed for.

blaxsun
01-31-2013, 10:06 PM
This thread was about Armor Piercing ammo. That's what it was designed for.

Pretty sure depleted uranium falls under the same heading...

Drache
01-31-2013, 10:35 PM
Pretty sure depleted uranium falls under the same heading...

But as you said it's not an option....

Satain
02-01-2013, 12:26 AM
I am not conferming or denying that I may or may not know of or if I might know or not know some were you can get depleted uranium rounds.

blaxsun
02-01-2013, 06:14 AM
I am not conferming or denying that I may or may not know of or if I might know or not know some were you can get depleted uranium rounds.

Can we add tannerite and tracers to the list? ;)

Dmay
02-01-2013, 06:51 AM
I don't know a great deal about the make-up or use of AP, but have played with some....little amazing how hard those penetrators can be:

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l204/dmay223/flange004.jpg

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l204/dmay223/flange003.jpg

Note how sharp the tip still is. These things make great centre-punches.

I have a 540 yd rock that I've put quite a few into, here's a couple found on the ground in front of the rock, again the tips are sharp, and there's at least one still stuck in there:

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l204/dmay223/50rk014.jpg

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l204/dmay223/50rk011.jpg

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l204/dmay223/Mushrooms018.jpg

RobSmith
02-01-2013, 07:37 AM
You find some at guns shows occasionally, nothing really spectacular IMO.

Skeetgunner
02-01-2013, 08:44 AM
Some of the clubs around don't allow it for various reasons.

Usually because the range warden develops a severe facial twitch when some noob ventilates his backstop plates. ;)

TV-PressPass
02-01-2013, 01:25 PM
Nothing like converting an indoor range into an outdoor range. Something the Shooting Edge has worried about in the past.

Canuck
02-01-2013, 01:37 PM
I don't know a great deal about the make-up or use of AP, but have played with some....little amazing how hard those penetrators can be:

Note how sharp the tip still is. These things make great centre-punches.

I have a 540 yd rock that I've put quite a few into, here's a couple found on the ground in front of the rock, again the tips are sharp, and there's at least one still stuck in there:



Very nice pics, especially the first two.