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jjg
10-18-2012, 03:36 AM
This post is to inform anyone new to the sport that may not be aware of special rules for new people at The Grange shooting club (aka Target Sport Canada)



So most gun clubs have safety courses and probationary periods. This is a legal requirement for them and completely expected and normal. There is no restriction placed on the clubs regarding what can be used during the probationary period and each club makes up their own procedure. Its entirely up the the individual club.

The RCMP requires people be a member of a shooting club in order to receive an ATT (Authorization To Transport).

The RCMP doesn't care what your title, rank or status is in the club as long as you are a member. Probationary Member, Full Member, funny looking Member, doesn't matter as long as you are a member you can receive an ATT.



Sport shooters who are joining The Grange from other clubs and thus already have their ATT may bring their own guns during their probationary period.

People new to the sport shooting sport or who do not have an existing ATT must wait until their entire probationary period is complete before The Grange will inform the RCMP that they are members.

The probationary period at The Grange is 4-6 week wait for a 1 day safety course and a few weeks of supervised shoots. By the time the RCMP does their processing and your issued your ATT your looking at 3 months of your 1 year membership during which you may not transport any of your own firearms. The Grange does provide firearm to use but you must buy their ammo for use in their guns and of course that ammo is very, very expensive. But the main point is an additional 3 month delay to sport shooters for absolutely no reason!

Did I mention the $700 price tag to become a member?

I've also seen some complaints about members there being unable to use AR ammo of some kind. Not sure what thats all about.



Anyway, this post is intended to help those new to shooting or The Grange shooting club get some idea of the types of things to investigate when deciding to join.

I hope it helps someone.

mlehto
10-18-2012, 07:32 AM
Most clubs are like that here in Ontario, minus the ridiculous mark ups on ammo prices.

The ammo issue with AR's at the Grange is that they make you buy their ammo, and it has to be frangible, because they claim their backstop will not handle .223 FMJ, or even soft points. The problem is that ammo is more than double the price of regular stuff.

That place is not worth what they want for memberships IMHO.

kingdarb
10-18-2012, 08:09 AM
I read a thread like this on another site yesterday.

The restrictions are not uncommon to be honest. Alot of places will not issue you a LTATT until you have passed probation. Most that I have seen will have a new member attend and shoot 22LR with an instructors pistol until they have passed probation.

What area do you live in, and what are you looking for out of a club? If you just want an indoor pistol club, The Marksmen Club has 24 hour 7 day access and is much cheaper than Target Sports. You can shoot jacketed ammo there, but not rifle calibres or shotgun. You may also want to consider the range in Burlington.

sDot
10-18-2012, 08:25 AM
Time to move to Iraq.

riderrick
10-18-2012, 08:36 AM
i joined the local fish and game. paid my 80 bucks (i think it was that much) that was it, done.

Cavs42
10-18-2012, 08:42 AM
I love not living in Ontario...

sDot
10-18-2012, 09:02 AM
I need I need to man up and tell my self that Edmonton's 11 months of winter is not so bad. I would love to get out of this dumphole.

Neil Burke
10-18-2012, 10:00 AM
Their guns, their ammo. I don't really have an issue with that rule. I would guess they're charging the rental rates even to members. I can't comment on most ranges waiting on probie time, but I know for a fact that Colby doesn't wait until you're done your probie time before they send in the ATT paperwork. It took three weeks to get it, but I'm told that's par for the course.

Skeetgunner
10-18-2012, 10:41 AM
So most gun clubs have safety courses and probationary periods. This is a legal requirement for them and completely expected and normal. There is no restriction placed on the clubs regarding what can be used during the probationary period and each club makes up their own procedure. Its entirely up the the individual club.

True. Not exactly, but close enough.


The RCMP requires people be a member of a shooting club in order to receive an ATT (Authorization To Transport). The RCMP doesn't care what your title, rank or status is in the club as long as you are a member. Probationary Member, Full Member, funny looking Member, doesn't matter as long as you are a member you can receive an ATT.


False. Only in opt-out provinces does the RCMP issue ATTs. In the opt-in provinces (BC, Ontario, Quebec, one other I forget), the ATT is issued by the local Provincial CFO. In Ontario, the CFO requires that you be a member in good standing of a Club, having been read into the minutes of the monthly Club meeting. Privately held commercial ranges may or may not follow the same practice.


The ammo issue with AR's at the Grange is that they make you buy their ammo, and it has to be frangible, because they claim their backstop will not handle .223 FMJ, or even soft points. The problem is that ammo is more than double the price of regular stuff.

One wonders why they chose to make the backstop out of anything less than 3/8's or 5/8's Hardox 500? Or did they? The difference is price is significant up front. But its minor when amortized/depreciated over the course of the life of the backstop; typically 20 years. And if someone actually did manage to shoot up the range with high-caliber rifle bullets, the range would be out of production until repaired. From a financial and risk assessment perspective, it makes no sense. Unless its a design issue, I'm betting their backstop is rated better than they profess.

50calshooter
10-18-2012, 01:55 PM
One wonders why they chose to make the backstop out of anything less than 3/8's or 5/8's Hardox 500? Or did they? The difference is price is significant up front. But its minor when amortized/depreciated over the course of the life of the backstop; typically 20 years. And if someone actually did manage to shoot up the range with high-caliber rifle bullets, the range would be out of production until repaired. From a financial and risk assessment perspective, it makes no sense. Unless its a design issue, I'm betting their backstop is rated better than they profess.


Good point, financially it makes no sense.

RDSC's backstops will be a Granulated Rubber Berm System, we chose this for many reasons... The biggest being no ammo restrictions whatsoever, FMJ, Steel Core, 338, or even 50 BMG. Shoot whatever floats your boat. The other reasons for this system are zero ricochet and zero lead dust. Since the rubber catches the bullets before they hit the steel plate underneath, they don't deform or fragment, win - win.

It was a no brainer really and since we're building our entire facility from the ground up, we were able to incorporate some really efficient design features that allow us to de-mine the berm in a 1/3 of the time, 1-2 days tops.

sDot
10-18-2012, 02:12 PM
My basement range is built like that. The wife still hates when I fire the .50 inside though..

Xtreme
10-18-2012, 04:13 PM
Good point, financially it makes no sense.

RDSC's backstops will be a Granulated Rubber Berm System, we chose this for many reasons... The biggest being no ammo restrictions whatsoever, FMJ, Steel Core, 338, or even 50 BMG. Shoot whatever floats your boat. The other reasons for this system are zero ricochet and zero lead dust. Since the rubber catches the bullets before they hit the steel plate underneath, they don't deform or fragment, win - win.

It was a no brainer really and since we're building our entire facility from the ground up, we were able to incorporate some really efficient design features that allow us to de-mine the berm in a 1/3 of the time, 1-2 days tops.

Hey 50cal, can you post a Google map of where you will be located? I want to come for a visit of the facility when she's ready, and depending on the travel time door-door it might even make sense to get a membership with you versus someplace closer.

Forbes/Hutton
10-18-2012, 04:37 PM
I looked at joining Grange, but with the price and restrictions, plus the short length of the range, I went with Silverdale instead.

Half the cost, three times the drive, but with almost no restrictions on firearms/ammo, up to 200 yards and 80+ shooting positions I can get three times the shooting and fun per trip.

jwirecom109
10-18-2012, 04:54 PM
I looked at joining Grange, but with the price and restrictions, plus the short length of the range, I went with Silverdale instead.

Half the cost, three times the drive, but with almost no restrictions on firearms/ammo, up to 200 yards and 80+ shooting positions I can get three times the shooting and fun per trip.

just one of the many reasons why i am no longer an indoor range member, -40 outside you say? means no one is on the benches :D

when its the winter and the wife wants to go to the range its calgary shooting centre, for us, no restriction on ammo type, and she likes the shorter range.

Skeetgunner
10-18-2012, 05:06 PM
RDSC's backstops will be a Granulated Rubber Berm System, we chose this for many reasons... The biggest being no ammo restrictions whatsoever, FMJ, Steel Core, 338, or even 50 BMG. Shoot whatever floats your boat. The other reasons for this system are zero ricochet and zero lead dust. Since the rubber catches the bullets before they hit the steel plate underneath, they don't deform or fragment, win - win.

I wouldn't mind seeing pics of that.


features that allow us to de-mine the berm in a 1/3 of the time, 1-2 days tops.

Our snail drops the rounds into a meter-wide, 30cm deep trough that can be shoveled out into barrels and loaded on a truck (through an extra wide access door) in about 4-6 hours. For the life of me, I can't remember how frequently they do this. Quarterly, I think.

50calshooter
10-19-2012, 04:21 PM
Hey 50cal, can you post a Google map of where you will be located? I want to come for a visit of the facility when she's ready, and depending on the travel time door-door it might even make sense to get a membership with you versus someplace closer.

Here you go, thanks for your interest in RDSC...

http://maps.google.ca/maps?f=q&source=embed&hl=en&geocode=&q=40th+Avenue+%26+McKenzie+Road+Red+Deer,+Alberta&aq=&sll=49.891235,-97.15369&sspn=49.785547,135.263672&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=McKenzie+Rd+%26+40+Ave,+Red+Deer+County,+Div ision+No.+8,+Alberta+T0M+1R0&ll=52.201126,-113.789906&spn=0.022962,0.066047&t=m&z=14



I wouldn't mind seeing pics of that.


Our snail drops the rounds into a meter-wide, 30cm deep trough that can be shoveled out into barrels and loaded on a truck (through an extra wide access door) in about 4-6 hours. For the life of me, I can't remember how frequently they do this. Quarterly, I think.


We will have pictures up on our website, here and facebook that will chronicle the construction and evolution of the entire facility. The design is pretty straight forward, 3-4 feet of rubber, steel deck and vertical fins holding the rubber in place.


As far as the steel traps go, I really considered spending the extra money to have a steel trap but at the end of the day it was more attractive to have the rubber berm system. The steel traps are louder, create more lead dust and have a potentially higher ricochet hazard. Not to mention they cost a lot more.

Just my 2 cents

TSE JR
10-26-2012, 05:21 PM
This post is to inform anyone new to the sport that may not be aware of special rules for new people at The Grange shooting club (aka Target Sport Canada)



So most gun clubs have safety courses and probationary periods. This is a legal requirement for them and completely expected and normal. There is no restriction placed on the clubs regarding what can be used during the probationary period and each club makes up their own procedure. Its entirely up the the individual club.

The RCMP requires people be a member of a shooting club in order to receive an ATT (Authorization To Transport).

The RCMP doesn't care what your title, rank or status is in the club as long as you are a member. Probationary Member, Full Member, funny looking Member, doesn't matter as long as you are a member you can receive an ATT.



Sport shooters who are joining The Grange from other clubs and thus already have their ATT may bring their own guns during their probationary period.

People new to the sport shooting sport or who do not have an existing ATT must wait until their entire probationary period is complete before The Grange will inform the RCMP that they are members.

The probationary period at The Grange is 4-6 week wait for a 1 day safety course and a few weeks of supervised shoots. By the time the RCMP does their processing and your issued your ATT your looking at 3 months of your 1 year membership during which you may not transport any of your own firearms. The Grange does provide firearm to use but you must buy their ammo for use in their guns and of course that ammo is very, very expensive. But the main point is an additional 3 month delay to sport shooters for absolutely no reason!

Did I mention the $700 price tag to become a member?

I've also seen some complaints about members there being unable to use AR ammo of some kind. Not sure what thats all about.



Anyway, this post is intended to help those new to shooting or The Grange shooting club get some idea of the types of things to investigate when deciding to join.

I hope it helps someone.

Actually, to clarify, the CFO does care about what kind of membership you have and unless you can show to them that you have taken the "approved" club level safety course that they have mandated and have been signed off as the club having actually seen you shoot safely (to paraphrase), you are not eligible for a LTATT.

The CLSC is run every 2 weeks at the Grange and the probationary shoots are run as needed, one on one, so it ususally takes someone 2-4 weeks max to get the approvals in place to get a LTATT.

I personally think the whole process is horse pucky as we have no requirements for this out west and we seem to operate, in general, in a safe freindly manner at teh 100 or so ranges scattered around. But it is, what it is.

As to the frangible issue: The backstop at Target Sports is old and has a hardness rating that can handle frangible, but nothing harder in the rifle natures. When we allowed members to bring in their own frangible, we had nothing but issues and caught too many substituting regular .223. This is very unsafe, so to avoid issues and to not punish the rest by not allowing it at all, we determined it best to regulate the frangible sales and use closely. Again, it is what it is.

More modern backstops allow more natures, but at this time Target Sports does not have one of these in place.

Hope this answers a few questions.

JR

zulu
10-26-2012, 07:59 PM
I will be stopping by this rdsc for sure