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View Full Version : How the U.S. Got shafted out of the FN FAL



Doug_M
01-14-2018, 12:05 PM
This popped up in my YouTube "recommended" feed and the title caught my attention.


https://youtu.be/jexf8A462jM

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kennymo
01-14-2018, 12:42 PM
It was on mine as well, haven't had time to watch yet...

Gunexpert007
01-14-2018, 12:58 PM
It came up on mine as well ; but it is nearly 17 min. in length . May have to watch it later . :Beer time:

FALover
01-14-2018, 01:02 PM
If memory serves me correctly, Canada was the first to adopt the FAL (with inch pattern drawings) in 1955. C1A1 built by Canadian Arsenals.

ESnel
01-14-2018, 02:16 PM
I'm starting to see a pattern here. Showed up on mine but haven't had time to watch it yet.

Turtlehead
01-14-2018, 02:26 PM
watched it after it showed up on mine. a little on the boring side.

Doug_M
01-14-2018, 02:39 PM
watched it after it showed up on mine. a little on the boring side.

Yeah itís not a shooting video or even a good expose on the FAL. But I did find it interesting to see an American calling out their own military (that Colonel specifically) for screwing NATO over on caliber as well as admitting the M14 wasnít as modern a design as the FAL.


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LB303
01-14-2018, 03:53 PM
I just like his sweater

Ruff
01-14-2018, 05:23 PM
Had a brief chance to own an FN FAL that was limited to semi-auto but it was prohibited within a very short time of that opportunity, so I felt lucky, sort of. Always did like the M14 and Buddy is right, the FN FAL was heavy beyond reason.

Video guy seems to contradict himself, saying the British round was the end all and be all but then goes on to describe how great the FAL was with 7.62X51, blasting through stuff and all. This left me a bit confused about what he was really saying. Anyway, I found the vid to be not at all boring, having watched the initally disastrous introduction of the mass produced M16s into Vietnam in its early days, that sort of gossip is very interesting.

H2O MAN
01-15-2018, 06:08 AM
I never liked the FAL, and us Yanks are happy with our M14s.

Doug_M
01-15-2018, 07:15 AM
I never liked the FAL, and us Yanks are happy with our M14s.

You "Yanks" make some very nice FALs. If they were every removed from the prohib list I'd immediately have an order in with DS Arms.

Ruff
01-15-2018, 07:46 AM
You "Yanks" make some very nice FALs. If they were every removed from the prohib list I'd immediately have an order in with DS Arms.

As I recall seeing it reported in the media, the story is that Alan Rock got mad one time and started pounding on a photo of an FAL his desk and shouting at his flunkies, saying "They're not going to have them!" and the rifles were prohibited the next day. This is of course the same man that became head of Ottawa U and banned their entire men's hockey team from playing for several years, trashing all of their hopes for scholarships or pro careers, simply because two players had been accused of date rape during an away game. But all of his firearms 'decisions' still stand.

Justice
01-15-2018, 12:36 PM
"...U.S. got shafted out of the FN FAL..." That's nonsense. The inferior in every way but accuracy M-14 was adopted because it was American. Done so for political reasons, just like when they adopted the M-16 10 years later.
The British round was not used in the American tests. It was thrown out at the insistence of the U.S who were busy jamming the 7.62x51 down the rest of NATO's throats. The U.S. threaten to take the money and troops out of NATO if they didn't get their way. Just like when they adopted the M-16 10 years later and jammed the 5.56 down other NATO countries throats. NOBODY wanted either rifle or cartridge.
"...C1A1 built by Canadian Arsenals...." Longbranch plant in Mississauga, Ont. Same as our No. 4 Lee-Enfields, BRENS, et al. Still trying to figure out how the very last(documented as such too) C1A1 got released to civilians. The thing came though the shop I worked in long ago.
"...us Yanks are happy with our M14s..." That's because you had nothing to compare 'em with.
"...trashing all of their hopes for scholarships..." No such thing as a 'sports' scholarship in Canada. Pro careers in hockey don't come out of U.S. universities either. And FAL's were declared evil long before Rock was ever heard of.

RangeBob
01-15-2018, 12:46 PM
For example, anyone with a registered lawfully-owned FN FAL or HK or BM59 rifle is "grandfathered" to "acquire and possess any prohibited firearm referred to in that [FA s. 12(5)] subsection" [FA s. 120(2)(b)].

That means that a person who has a registered firearm on that list (such as one of the above) can "acquire and possess" any other firearm on that list, which is called "Prohibited Weapons Order No. 13 [PW 13]." The FN FAL is item 74 on the PW 13 list.

Item 86 on the PW 13 list is "the firearm of the design commonly known as the Thompson submachine gun, and any variant or modified version of it..." Therefore, the people "grandfathered" by FA s. 12(5) are apparently entitled to buy live, full-automatic Thompson submachine guns that are GGs.

That may not have been what the drafters of Bill C-68 intended, but it is the result when one reads what they wrote. The other House passed what they wrote, and it is now the law of the land. If we have to obey this law, so do they. In the near future, someone qualified by being on the PW 13 list is going to buy himself a new Tommy-gun, and that is going to generate a very interesting court case.

Such a case is now before the courts. The buyer lost in provincial court, but only because the judge was so confused by the complexity that he made a very serious error in reading what the 01 Jan 1978 law had to say. The case is now going to appeal, and, if won, will make the above interpretation the law of the land for that province -- unless the government appeals that verdict.

Although PW 12 and PW 13 were reissued as two parts of Order in Council SOR/98-462 in 1998, FA s. 12(4) and (5) say that, for their purposes, the re-issued versions cannot be used. They require anyone affected by FA s. 12(4) or 12(5) to go by the 1992 version of PW 12 and the 1994 version of PW 13.


from https://sencanada.ca/content/sen/committee/372/lega/witn/firearms1-e.htm

Doug_M
01-15-2018, 01:42 PM
"...U.S. got shafted out of the FN FAL..." That's nonsense. The inferior in every way but accuracy M-14 was adopted because it was American. Done so for political reasons, just like when they adopted the M-16 10 years later.

Lol...I can tell you didnít watch the video.


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Doug_M
01-15-2018, 01:48 PM
[indent] For example, anyone with a registered lawfully-owned FN FAL or HK or BM59 rifle is "grandfathered" to "acquire and possess any prohibited firearm referred to in that [FA s. 12(5)] subsection" [FA s. 120(2)(b)].

That means that a person who has a registered firearm on that list (such as one of the above) can "acquire and possess" any other firearm on that list, which is called "Prohibited Weapons Order No. 13 [PW 13]." The FN FAL is item 74 on the PW 13 list.

Item 86 on the PW 13 list is "the firearm of the design commonly known as the Thompson submachine gun, and any variant or modified version of it..." Therefore, the people "grandfathered" by FA s. 12(5) are apparently entitled to buy live, full-automatic Thompson submachine guns that are GGs.

Hmmm. Iíve got a 12.5 license. Hmm. I like full auto. What province is the case from?


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Ruff
01-15-2018, 03:41 PM
"...U.S. got shafted out of the FN FAL..." That's nonsense. The inferior in every way but accuracy M-14 was adopted because it was American. Done so for political reasons, just like when they adopted the M-16 10 years later.
The British round was not used in the American tests. It was thrown out at the insistence of the U.S who were busy jamming the 7.62x51 down the rest of NATO's throats. The U.S. threaten to take the money and troops out of NATO if they didn't get their way. Just like when they adopted the M-16 10 years later and jammed the 5.56 down other NATO countries throats. NOBODY wanted either rifle or cartridge.
"...C1A1 built by Canadian Arsenals...." Longbranch plant in Mississauga, Ont. Same as our No. 4 Lee-Enfields, BRENS, et al. Still trying to figure out how the very last(documented as such too) C1A1 got released to civilians. The thing came though the shop I worked in long ago.
"...us Yanks are happy with our M14s..." That's because you had nothing to compare 'em with.
"...trashing all of their hopes for scholarships..." No such thing as a 'sports' scholarship in Canada. Pro careers in hockey don't come out of U.S. universities either. And FAL's were declared evil long before Rock was ever heard of.

I was quoting the kids' lawyer(s) and various sports commentators from that time, but very offhand I personally do know of about 6 Canadian kids from my rather small home area that got full US Ivy League or slightly lesser college scholarships, including Yale and Harvard, based on their demonstrated Canadian post secondary performance in traditionally "Un-American" sports like hockey and lacrosse. Oh, and also track and field- that guy later got hired as an assistant coach at really famous state school and seems to make a lawyer's salary- in US dollars.

And it forking well was Rock that prohibited the FAL as well as small calibre handguns and virtually everything else that is presently prohibited. What are you, a friend of the family?

Stew
01-15-2018, 04:18 PM
actually, there are sports scholarships in Canada, they're small in comparison to the US but our tuition rates are minuscule in comparison as well

http://www.oua.ca/student_athletes/student_financial_awards

Doug_M
01-15-2018, 05:34 PM
And it forking well was Rock that prohibited the FAL as well as small calibre handguns and virtually everything else that is presently prohibited. What are you, a friend of the family?

Justice would be referring to the restricting by name of the FAL before the prohibiting by name.


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RangeBob
01-15-2018, 05:49 PM
I wonder if the mother will be reading Aesop's Fables, unabridged original version (not the politically correct Australian version), with her daughter this week.
Particularly the "Boy who cried wolf" story.

On the other hand, next year the girl might be asked to pen her own. (A year must pass before she'll notice "that when they speak truth they are not believed".)

RangeBob
01-15-2018, 05:53 PM
Hmmm. Iíve got a 12.5 license. Hmm. I like full auto. What province is the case from?

The link in Post #14 was ~2001, since it's talking about Bill C-15B in the present tense.

gtr
01-15-2018, 06:04 PM
It was on mine as well, haven't had time to watch yet...

You can set your filter higher to avoid junk mail.

Doug_M
01-15-2018, 07:27 PM
The link in Post #14 was ~2001, since it's talking about Bill C-15B in the present tense.I missed the "from link..." first time around and thought it was something you wrote. Damn you RB, I had dreams of pretty awesome safe queen!

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762shooter
01-15-2018, 10:22 PM
If memory serves me correctly, Canada was the first to adopt the FAL (with inch pattern drawings) in 1955. C1A1 built by Canadian Arsenals.

We did have a batch of Belgium made metric pattern rifles for trials.

CGO
10-29-2018, 03:45 PM
"...U.S. got shafted out of the FN FAL..." That's nonsense. The inferior in every way but accuracy M-14 was adopted because it was American. Done so for political reasons, just like when they adopted the M-16 10 years later.
The British round was not used in the American tests. It was thrown out at the insistence of the U.S who were busy jamming the 7.62x51 down the rest of NATO's throats. The U.S. threaten to take the money and troops out of NATO if they didn't get their way. Just like when they adopted the M-16 10 years later and jammed the 5.56 down other NATO countries throats. NOBODY wanted either rifle or cartridge.
"...C1A1 built by Canadian Arsenals...." Longbranch plant in Mississauga, Ont. Same as our No. 4 Lee-Enfields, BRENS, et al. Still trying to figure out how the very last(documented as such too) C1A1 got released to civilians. The thing came though the shop I worked in long ago.
"...us Yanks are happy with our M14s..." That's because you had nothing to compare 'em with.
"...trashing all of their hopes for scholarships..." No such thing as a 'sports' scholarship in Canada. Pro careers in hockey don't come out of U.S. universities either. And FAL's were declared evil long before Rock was ever heard of.

??

We can buy any model of firearm. I'm not a fan of the M14 or FN FAL but I have fired both and I would prefer the M14. I'd take an AR10 pattern rifle over either though.

FALover
10-29-2018, 04:03 PM
??

We can buy any model of firearm. I'm not a fan of the M14 or FN FAL but I have fired both and I would prefer the M14. I'd take an AR10 pattern rifle over either though.

it's a tough call between the FAL or a REAL AR-10! The M-14 is ok but still #3 on that list.
9835

Top- TRW M-14- Built in 1961
Middle- Belgian FN-FAL- Built in 1975
Bottom- Sudanese AR-10- Built in 1958

CGO
10-29-2018, 09:32 PM
it's a tough call between the FAL or a REAL AR-10! The M-14 is ok but still #3 on that list.
9835

I am truly envious of that AR10.