CZ 858 Tactical

[livewire]

Hey guys,
I'm somewhat confused with all this talk about the CZ 858 rifles possibly being prohibited.
What's the status today on the CZ 858 Tactical 2-P, with a date of 2012 in the window, and having an 18.5" barrel? As far as I know, these are non-restricted, and are they being considered for the prohibited class?

Thanks.

[RangeBob]

Bill C-71, text of the bill.
http://www.parl.ca/Content/Bills/421/Government/C-71/C-71_1/C-71_1.PDF

If you register it before June 30, 2018, you become grandfathered for prohibited 12(11), and can take it to a CFO approved shooting range. It's prohibited, so you'll need to comply with the prohibited storage regulations. It can only be sold to other people who own CZ858's and are 12(11) grandfathered. When you die it's destroyed. You can't use it as a non-restricted (e.g. crown land, hunting, etc).

If you fail to register it before June 30, 2018, there's a possession amnesty till 2021. However you must phone police to come and pick it up, and they'll take it and destroy it. If it's not registered, you can't take it to a CFO approved shooting range or anywhere else. It's a safe queen until it's destroyed.

If the bill fails to pass, then neither of these things happen.

[Mark-II]

Doesn't the deadline make it seem like they really want as many of these to fall out of scope as possible. You cannot reasonably expect every owner of such rifles to know about the deadline.

It'll also make for some nice "Man detained at traffic stop found to be in possession of a prohibited assault-style rifle" headlines.

[Deuce-deuce]

Doesn't the deadline make it seem like they really want as many of these to fall out of scope as possible. You cannot reasonably expect every owner of such rifles to know about the deadline.

It'll also make for some nice "Man detained at traffic stop found to be in possession of a prohibited assault-style rifle" headlines.
Do you honestly think they’ll even get 50% of them?

[Mark-II]

Do you honestly think they’ll even get 50% of them?

No, I was musing on their motivations and expectations, not upon reality

Crank up the paper criminal making machine, Justin...

[RangeBob]

Doesn't the deadline make it seem like they really want as many of these to fall out of scope as possible. You cannot reasonably expect every owner of such rifles to know about the deadline.

Being Non-restricted, there's no reasonable way for the RCMP CanadianFirearmsProgram to notify the owners. If they do it'll be a political mess for the RCMP, because they'll be admitting they kept a copy of the LGR, in violation of the law.

Assuming the 4% of PALers who signed the petition represent the readership and reach of various social media, my guess is that 96% of CZ858 owners will not find out about this date until it's too late.

The bulk of them could be notified via the vendors that sold them, but that's a lot of work for the vendors. (I'm assuming they have emails, otherwise its envelopes & stamps)

Low Estimate
CZ858 9800 * $729.95 = $7,153,510
Swiss 1800 * $2999 = $5,398,200
Total: $12,551,710

High Estimate (most CZ owners I've seen, an old NFA announcement; and higher Swiss Arms price)
CZ858 13000 * $729.95 = $9,489,350
Swiss 1800 * $4000 = $7,200,000
Total: $16,689,350

[livewire]

Thanks RangeBob.

So as of now, is the rifle considered non-restricted because of the barrel length?
Can it be sold before June 30 to anyone with a Pal or RPal as a non-restricted?
When do they vote on the bill?

[RangeBob]

So as of now, is the rifle considered non-restricted
Yes


because of the barrel length?
No.
It's non-restricted because it's a Named Non-Restricted by an Order In Council.
Specifically this one, SOR/2015-213 July 31, 2015
http://www.gazette.gc.ca/rp-pr/p2/2015/2015-08-12/html/sor-dors213-eng.html

Bill C71 will override that Order In Council, by making it a Named Prohibited in the Act.
Bill C71 also removes the ability for a minister to ever move a restricted or prohibited firearm to non-restricted by making it a Named Non-Restricted by Order In Council.
Bill C71 retains the ability for a minister to move a non-restricted to restricted or prohibited by making it a Named Restricted or Named Prohibited by Order In Council.


Can it be sold before June 30 to anyone with a Pal or RPal as a non-restricted?
It can be sold to anyone with a PAL before the Bill passes as a non-restricted. (But that might be mean.)
There are lots of them for sale on CGN and elsewhere. Fewer takers, lower prices, already.


When do they vote on the bill?
Here's the current status of the Bill C-71
https://www.parl.ca/LegisInfo/BillDetails.aspx?Language=E&billId=9710291

It's currently finished Second Reading in the House of Commons, and is being reviewed by the House Of Commons "Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security". It's expected to be out of committee by the end of the month.
It's expected have 3rd reading, debate, and 3rd reading debate & vote in the House of Commons, the first week of June.
Thereafter it goes to the Senate. First reading, Second Reading with debate & vote, Committee, 3rd reading debate and vote, by the end of June.
Royal Assent the end of June. It'll appear in the Canada Gazette the next week, and then it's law.

That said, no one can really predict the schedule.
The House Of Commons "Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security" normally meets Tuesdays and Thursdays, but they haven't even published what they're doing Tuesday May 15 (today) yet.

[Deuce-deuce]

“Fewer takers and lower prices”... both numbers will keep dropping.

[RangeBob]

“Fewer takers and lower prices”... both numbers will keep dropping.

CZ and Swiss Arms. When I looked at it there was a date for the grandfathering of June 30 2018. Why that date, it being a future date, was chosen.
-- Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, SECU, May 8 2018 near 1h 32m

June 30 was chosen to provide a certain period of notice to owners and vendors of these firearms before the legal status of them would change. It provides time for people who may own a firearm to decide if they wish to remain an owner of the firearm, whether they wish to comply with the requirements that will be in place to become a grandfathered owner, it also allows for vendors and importers to make their plans about what they may wish to do with inventories or imports of an item that is about to become a prohibited firearm.
-- Randall Koops, Dept of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness, SECU, May 8 2018 near 1h 33m

The reason I'm asking is because I'm wondering how that impacts the market for these firearms. Whether it makes them more desirable during that period.
-- Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, SECU, May 8 2018 near 1h 33m

I think in general it makes them less desirable. From the perspective of one has significantly reduced opportunities to sell the firearm because one can only sell it to another grandfathered owner. So the firearms are less attractive from that perspective in the sense of their market value.
-- Randall Koops, Dept of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness, SECU, May 8 2018 near 1h 34m

[livewire]

Thanks RangeBob...a lot of good info there.

[RangeBob]

because of the barrel length?
No.
It's non-restricted because it's a Named Non-Restricted by an Order In Council.
Specifically this one, SOR/2015-213 July 31, 2015
http://www.gazette.gc.ca/rp-pr/p2/2015/2015-08-12/html/sor-dors213-eng.html


SOR/2015-213 and in the below link it uses the definitions of section 3.1 and 3.2 (near the top), to define "Ceská Zbrojovka" and "SAN Swiss Arms" (about 70% of the way down), and section 3.1 and 3.2 use "barrel that is at least 470 mm in length" to define which others would go where, but the ones that are specifically named are done by item number which Names them.

They are prescribed (named) in the below, in a way that overrides the other Criminal Code definitions.

Regulations Prescribing Certain Firearms and Other Weapons, Components and Parts of Weapons, Accessories, Cartridge Magazines, Ammunition and Projectiles as Prohibited, Restricted or Non-Restricted. SOR/98-462
http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/SOR-98-462/FullText.html

3.1 names items 3, 4, 6, 7, 9 and 10 as restricted.
3.2 names items 1, 2, 5, 8 and 11 to 15 as non-restricted


Ceská Zbrojovka (CZ) Model CZ858 Tactical-2P rifle (non-restricted)
Ceská Zbrojovka (CZ) Model CZ858 Tactical-2V rifle (non-restricted)
Ceská Zbrojovka (CZ) Model CZ858 Tactical-4P rifle (restricted)
Ceská Zbrojovka (CZ) Model CZ858 Tactical-4V rifle (restricted)
SAN Swiss Arms Model Classic Green rifle (non-restricted)
SAN Swiss Arms Model Classic Green carbine (restricted)
SAN Swiss Arms Model Classic Green CQB rifle (restricted)
SAN Swiss Arms Model Black Special rifle (non-restricted)
SAN Swiss Arms Model Black Special carbine (restricted)
SAN Swiss Arms Model Black Special CQB rifle (restricted)
SAN Swiss Arms Model Black Special Target rifle (non-restricted)
SAN Swiss Arms Model Blue Star rifle (non-restricted)
SAN Swiss Arms Model Heavy Metal rifle (non-restricted)
SAN Swiss Arms Model Red Devil rifle (non-restricted)
SAN Swiss Arms Model Swiss Arms Edition rifle (non-restricted)

[livewire]

To sell a CZ 858 non-restricted, MUST one call the CFO for the transfer, or can it be done between the two parties as long as the licences are valid? Also, if one registers a CZ a few days before the June 30 deadline, is that enough time to obtain a prohibited licence? I would assume one can't use the gun at the range until the prohibited one comes in?

[Doug_M]

C-71 is not law. It isn’t even out of committee. There is another vote left in the House. Then it goes to the Senate. The June registration date is meaningless until the bill becomes law. The date could change. The bill could change.

Your non-restricted CZ is just that.


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[Shaner]

Is the VZ58 in the same category? Or would that be a safer buy?