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labradort
07-20-2018, 06:50 AM
My local Canadian Tire didn't just look at my PAL when I purchased a gun recently. They logged into the RCMP site and checked my PAL was valid. The guy working there said they need to do that for ammunition sales or even for someone to look at a gun on display. Looks like it isn't only the RCMP who have marched ahead with something that isn't law yet. It is going to make purchase of ammunition very time consuming for staff and customers. There is also a potential for RCMP to compile top PAL look ups and track that as people to investigate.

Doug_M
07-20-2018, 06:53 AM
That is disconcerting.

protozen
07-20-2018, 07:15 AM
That doesn't sound very good to me ...

Sinbad
07-20-2018, 07:20 AM
Never liked crappy tire.

play.soccer
07-20-2018, 07:22 AM
And you still bought something there? Did you at least tell them what the law was?

ruger#1
07-20-2018, 07:23 AM
Our Can tire have everything gun, and ammo related locked up with metal lattice. The one across the river sold all their guns , and rifles. They will not sell them anymore. Even the low powered air rifles and pellets are locked up tight.

ESnel
07-20-2018, 07:24 AM
It that a corporate owned or franchised owned store?

ruger#1
07-20-2018, 07:59 AM
It that a corporate owned or franchised owned store?

Not sure. I am thinking both are franchise.

ESnel
07-20-2018, 08:26 AM
Not sure. I am thinking both are franchise.

Hi Ruger,
I was curious about Labradort's store, you posted while I was typing. The one in Vancouver near Boundary/Grandview isn't bad. It seems most of the ones out our way are franchised .

Justice
07-20-2018, 10:11 AM
Crappy Tire makes up their own rules. Usually according to the whims of the franchise holder.
You should ask to see the clerk's PAL he's required to have by law.

labradort
07-20-2018, 06:30 PM
OK, today I checked another Canadian Tire and it was the same as before. Show PAL and buy with escort to the cash. The one with the hyped up C-71 style policies sells firearms. It must be a franchise owner initiated thing.

RobertMcC
07-20-2018, 08:48 PM
OK, today I checked another Canadian Tire and it was the same as before. Show PAL and buy with escort to the cash. The one with the hyped up C-71 style policies sells firearms. It must be a franchise owner initiated thing.

Was that the greenwood one giving you the bs?

RangeBob
07-20-2018, 10:34 PM
My local Canadian Tire didn't just look at my PAL when I purchased a gun recently. They logged into the RCMP site and checked my PAL was valid. The guy working there said they need to do that for ammunition sales or even for someone to look at a gun on display. Looks like it isn't only the RCMP who have marched ahead with something that isn't law yet. It is going to make purchase of ammunition very time consuming for staff and customers. There is also a potential for RCMP to compile top PAL look ups and track that as people to investigate.

Federal Rules:
- citizens & stores must validate the RPAL for restricted/prohibited sales. I doubt Canadian Tire does much of those.
- citizens & stores may validate the PAL for non-restricted sales. If a particular Canadian Tire store wants to, that's their option.
- citizens may not validate the PAL for ammunition sales. Specifically, the validation law was put there for sales of firearms, and the Canadian Firearms Program asks if this is a non-restricted sale, and if you say anything else they won't validate the PAL. Internet ammunition sales from businesses however always have the PAL validated. The law says that seeing the PAL is enough, and all the ammunition purchases I've done in person at a business they saw my PAL and wrote it down in the log book.


In Ontario, due to the Ontario Ammunition Act ~1994 (due to Constable Todd Bayliss, killed by a Jamaican immigrant) before the Firearms Act was announced, these are the rules for ammunition sales :


Dec 2012

File Reference xxxxxxxxx

Mr. xxxxxxx:

The provincial Ammunition Regulation Act (ARA) requires businesses to record certain information when they sell ammunition to individuals. The information required is as follow:

-Name of individual
-Date of birth (age of individual)
-Address
-Calibre and quantity of ammunition
-Date of purchase
-Type of identification as well as the serial number of the ID used

In order for someone to buy regular ammunition, an individual must have a firearms licence pursuant to the Firearms Act (FA). If you note on your POL / PAL, it does not include your address information, which businesses are required to record under the ARA. That is why businesses ask for two pieces of identification. Your firearms licence is your requirement under the FA to buy ammunition, the second piece of government identification with your address information is the requirement for businesses to record a person’s address pursuant to the ARA.

To address the protection of personal information brought forth by so many individual clients because of concerns about ledgers been left open on a counter for viewing by all, we developed a process that addresses the concern without compromising the integrity of the data collected and still in keeping with the legislative requirements of the ARA. We have told our businesses that when it comes to personal information about an individual, they only need the following:

-Name of individual
-Firearms Licence number

Of course businesses must still record the date of purchase and the calibre and quantity of ammunition purchased as per the ARA.

The reason we only request the name of individual and the POL / PAL number is because we can access someone’s age / date of birth, and address on our database. If we did not have this access, we would still require businesses to record all of the personal information required under the ARA.

We insist on the name rather than just the POL / PAL number because if there is a mistake in the recording of the licence number, with a name, we can figure out who purchased it and determine where the mistake was in the recording of the licence number. A licence number is of no value if there is a mistake in the recording of it and it is linked to another individual.

Since there is no requirement to have a firearms licence to buy pellets, if someone buys pellets they need to provide the following all of their personal information, which includes:

Name of individual
Date of birth (age of individual)
Address
Type of identification as well as the serial number of the ID used

There seems to be a couple of businesses that are still going by what the ARA requires of them; which is correct. However, we have streamlined the process because we have access to the data required by the Ammunition Regulation Act (ARA).

The policy has been in existence for the past 3 years.




Sent: March 29, 2012 11:45 AM

To: CFO Ontario (JUS)

Subject: ammo purchases - I.D. requirement

Hello

It is my understanding that only a valid PAL must be presented for ammunition purchases. Some retailers demand further identification. Is the presentation of additional identification required by law?

Regards,
..............



File Reference xxxxxxxxxxx

Mr. xxxxxxx:

The Firearms Act requires an individual to have a firearms licence in order to purchase ammunition. In other words, if you are a holder of a POL or a PAL, you can purchase ammunition.

The Ammunition Regulation Act of Ontario, 1994, requires businesses to record the name, age, and address of individual. A number of years ago, the CFO, for protection of privacy reasons, adopted a policy and sent a memo to all Ontario firearms businesses indicating that an individual’s name and firearms licence were sufficient to meet the requirement of the Ammunition Regulation Act (ARA) as we are the regulators of both the ARA and the Firearms Act (FA) and we have access to the database that allows us to look up the ages and addresses of our licensed clients if such a need arises.In instances, where individual does not have a firearms licence and he/she wishes to purchase pellets (pellets are defined as ammunition in the ARA but are not considered ammunition pursuant to the FA), an individual would be required to provide government photo ID, age, and address as per the ARA.

I trust this answers your question.

Regards,

Chantal L. Trahan
Policy and Communications Officer
Chief Firearms Office - Ontario
Tel: 705-329-5524 or 1-800-731-4000, ext. 7544
Fax: 705-329-5623
E-mail: chantal.trahan@ontario.ca

And this poster, from the Ontario CFO's office, has in note 4 at the bottom, an explanation saying the address needn't be recorded for ammo sales where the PAL# is used
http://rrgc.ca/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/Ammunition-Poster.pdf

MarkR
07-21-2018, 04:22 AM
Our local CT store was demanding PAL and Address; a bunch of us rebelled and said "no addresses"; they don't ask any longer; but the still wright down the PAL number and the ammo bought and the date.

3MTA3
07-21-2018, 05:25 AM
Can you imagine the carnage that would be unleashed in Ontario if addresses were not recorded in a book for ammunition sales?

Lee Enfield
07-21-2018, 08:47 AM
Purchasing from my local CT for me is about as rare as winning a lottery however they ask to see my pal for ammo but don't record anything. If they did record I would never go back. I haven't bought ammo from them in many months.

I spend 99.99% of my dollars at my LGS, better selection and the guys don't have that "Pro Staff" BS attitude. I show my pal and never record anything for ammo purchases.

LB303
07-21-2018, 10:12 AM
My nearby Walmart and CT keep paper ledgers which reside in the ammo cabinets. CT has theirs in a three ring binder so at least the top page is secure from prying eyes. Walmart just uses a clipboard so it's a little concerning. In the LGS it's actually seamless. They just scan your PAL like any other card and the transaction is electronically filed. No muss no fuss. That's as good as it gets here in the Peoples Republic of Ontaristan

Casual glance at the WallyWorld ammo cabinet. (Redacted)

Malus
07-21-2018, 10:16 AM
Crappy Tire makes up their own rules. Usually according to the whims of the franchise holder.
You should ask to see the clerk's PAL he's required to have by law.

That would be an interesting tactic. Make the seller produce a valid license and then ask to use their phone to call it in to be sure everything is legit before you purchase...

Drache
07-21-2018, 10:18 AM
No one needs to check if a PAL is valid but sometimes it's a good idea. If someone new comes into the store I will generally run their PAL to see if it's valid if they buy a gun. At least one if not two came up as not valid.

As for writing down PAL numbers, I will admit our store does it although it is for our personal records and not for the prying eyes of the Government. We do it so if the RCMP try to come down on us about not checking someone's PAL when they purchased a firearm, we can say we have, if you give us that specific person's name and the date we can prove it.

Sinbad
07-21-2018, 11:38 AM
if you give us that specific person's name and the date we can prove it.

How would a cop know the date?

I can understand the cover your ass part, but I had a dealer tell me one time he never recorded what his customers purchased other than restricted.
His reason was.
What if a person broke into his store for dubious reasons then they would know who owned what. I told him I never thought of that, but obviously he did.

Drache
07-21-2018, 12:42 PM
How would a cop know the date?

I can understand the cover your ass part, but I had a dealer tell me one time he never recorded what his customers purchased other than restricted.
His reason was.
What if a person broke into his store for dubious reasons then they would know who owned what. I told him I never thought of that, but obviously he did.

There was a store near here where two undercover officers went in an claimed they bought a gun without having to show a PAL. The judge asked the guy who ran the store to prove that he checked their PAL and he claimed he didn't remember. So in that instance they would know the exact date. That is what I was referring to.

We have had officers come into our store and ask us who we sold a specific gun to. It was a chopped down .22LR semi auto found in a drug den and the serial number was traced to our store. We told them we wouldn't give them the person's info, but told them if it was ok we would contact the person we sold it to and let that person know what was going on and pass along the request from the RCMP to have the person call in. They said it was ok and the person called up the RCMP voluntarily. They had sold the gun to so and so and that person sold it to the drug dealer.

labradort
07-21-2018, 03:00 PM
Was that the greenwood one giving you the bs?

Yes, Greenwood is doing electronic look ups. New Minas is not. I don't think Halifax at Chain Lake Dr. is doing electronic look ups at this time.

RobertMcC
07-21-2018, 04:01 PM
Yes, Greenwood is doing electronic look ups. New Minas is not. I don't think Halifax at Chain Lake Dr. is doing electronic look ups at this time.

Guess I'll be going else where to get my 22 mini mags.

Gothic Line Armoury
07-22-2018, 03:50 PM
Woah woah woah...... All you guys actually think a store selling you Firearms shouldn't be looking up your PAL on the RCMP firearms business site????

WTSF??!!

I would lose my FBL if I ever did that, that is law....

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ESnel
07-22-2018, 04:25 PM
Woah woah woah...... All you guys actually think a store selling you Firearms shouldn't be looking up your PAL on the RCMP firearms business site????

WTSF??!!

I would lose my FBL if I ever did that, that is law....

Sent from my BBD100-2 using Tapatalk

My understanding for non-restricted and ammo purchases there is no requirement to do so but if you could point me to the law stating that all firearms purchases must be checked on RCMP site I'd appreciate that. Does this apply to private sales?

FBL= Firearms Business Licence ?

Gothic Line Armoury
07-22-2018, 04:28 PM
For non-restricted and ammo purchases there is no requirement to do so.Ok..... And as a firearms business owner, what are the chances you think I'm going to sell any firearms, NR or not, without checking a PAL on the RCMP firearms business site??

Would you??

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Billythreefeathers
07-22-2018, 04:33 PM
my money walks

ESnel
07-22-2018, 04:35 PM
Ok..... And as a firearms business owner, what are the chances you think I'm going to sell any firearms, NR or not, without checking a PAL on the RCMP firearms business site??

Would you??

Sent from my BBD100-2 using Tapatalk

Just edited asking for the actual law. Now your free to create any rules you want when your selling anything as far as I'm concerned but don't claim your rules are the law when it's not.

Out of curiosity what province are you in?

Out here in BC I don't know of a single place I or friends have done business with where our PAL was called in or even written down.

Drache
07-22-2018, 04:38 PM
There is no law stating that you have to check to see if someone's PAL is valid. But if you sell a gun to someone whose PAL is invalid your Firearms Business License is at stake due to the whim of the CFO.

Gothic Line Armoury
07-22-2018, 05:03 PM
Just edited asking for the actual law. Now your free to create any rules you want when your selling anything as far as I'm concerned but don't claim your rules are the law when it's not.

Out of curiosity what province are you in?

Out here in BC I don't know of a single place I or friends have done business with where our PAL was called in or even written down.Yes, FBL = Firearms Business License.

I'm in Alberta.

There is no requirement by law to collect and/or record any information in regards to a NR firearms or ammunition sale. However, the requirement is there to only sell to an individual in possession of a valid license for any firearms transaction, including NR and ammunition. Without checking the RCMP firearms business site, how else would one be certain that the person trying to buy a NR firearm or ammunition has a valid license??

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RangeBob
07-22-2018, 05:59 PM
For non-restricted sales...

The laws in question

Criminal Code section 101 Transfer Without Authority is the one we're talking about here. Lawyers Jonathan Kenee Bruner, Pamela Goode, and Solomon Friedman, who literally wrote the book about this, say about cc s101 that "due diligence" is the only defense.
Bill C19 (2012) (here (http://www.parl.ca/Content/Bills/411/Government/C-19/C-19_4/C-19_4.PDF)) updates the Firearms Act to say "23. A person may transfer a firearm that is neither a prohibited firearm nor a restricted firearm if, at the time of the transfer, (a) the transferee holds a licence authorizing the transferee to acquire and possess that kind of firearm; and (b) the transferor has no reason to believe that the transferee is not authorized to acquire and possess that kind of firearm."
Lawyer Lavergne says cc 117.11 puts the onus on the seller to verify the licence.
Some lawyers, like Pierre Plourde, argue that onus under s. 23 of the Firearms Act is entirely on the BUYER to be licensed; absent an ACTUAL REASON in the seller’s mind to think the buyer is not legit, there is NO ONUS on the seller to make any inquiries. Once there is such a reason, then sale cannot happen.
At SECU, Hon. Ralph Goodale (Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness), Mr. Randall Koops (Director General, Policing Policy, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness), Ms. Paula Clarke (Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice), Superintendent Paul Brown (Acting Director General, Canadian Firearms Program, Royal Canadian Mounted Police), Mr. Rob O'Reilly (Director, Firearms Regulatory Services, Canadian Firearms Program, Royal Canadian Mounted Police) : all said that for a non-restricted purchase that no one need look at a PAL, because they only need to have no reason to believe that they don't have a PAL.
At SECU, Solomon Friedman (mentioned above), said he's currently defending clients for 101 Transfer Without Authority. This may imply Crown Attorneys disagree with the previous two bullet points, although the nature of the cases he's defending was not explicitly spelled out that I noticed. Nonetheless Friedman was clear that the 'loophole' the government was concerned about didn't exist.


Due Diligence pretty much means seeing the licence (in person) or verifying it (CFP internet).

Due Diligence is satisfied by:

seeing the PAL (not phoning it in to verify it), or
if you can't see & hold the PAL in person then phoning the PAL# in to verify it.
There may be other ways to satisfy due diligence. For example you may know your spouse has a PAL because the RCMP just phoned you to ask if you were ok with a PAL licence renewal.


Seeing the PAL is enough, due to this:


The double negative is easily satisfied by seeing the PAL. That is how the CFO is advising the gun stores. That seems reasonable. If you have the PAL then the police have not seized it and there is likely no court order to surrender it. Very Very few people who are under a bail condition not to have firearms or who have been raided under 117 have their PAL. The police are very good at seizing the PAL during the raid. When arrested the PAL is held by the police. So if you see the PAL in person at the time of the transfer you can reasonably assume the PAL is valid.
-- sweetheart (related to Canadian firearms lawyer Ed Burlew)

Where it gets interesting, is if the CFO thinks the firearms business hasn't done enough (interpretation), and this


Many vendors will want to see your PAL to be sure you are not prohibited even if the antique or airgun does not need a license. That is due diligence to be assured the transfer of the firearm is not illegal. It is illegal to transfer a firearm to a person known to have a prohibition order. Some will say don't ask and don't know, but that SOB who has the prohibition and gets the antique or airgun and is later caught in illegal possession will turn on you ASAP. Then your butt is in deep whatever.
-- sweetheart

In the case of the CFO closing the business and seizing the entire firearms inventory, obviously this will ruin the business even if the business is not guilty. Getting out of this hole takes years, lots of money to lawyers, and assorted debts may be impossible to pay and bankruptcy is the result.


Transfer without authority
101 (1) Every person commits an offence who transfers a prohibited firearm, a restricted firearm, a non-restricted firearm, a prohibited weapon, a restricted weapon, a prohibited device, any ammunition or any prohibited ammunition to any person otherwise than under the authority of the Firearms Act or any other Act of Parliament or any regulations made under an Act of Parliament.

Onus on the accused
117.11 Where, in any proceedings for an offence under any of sections 89, 90, 91, 93, 97, 101, 104 and 105, any question arises as to whether a person is the holder of an authorization, a licence or a registration certificate, the onus is on the accused to prove that the person is the holder of the authorization, licence or registration certificate.

ESnel
07-22-2018, 06:27 PM
Yes, FBL = Firearms Business License.

I'm in Alberta.

There is no requirement by law to collect and/or record any information in regards to a NR firearms or ammunition sale. However, the requirement is there to only sell to an individual in possession of a valid license for any firearms transaction, including NR and ammunition. Without checking the RCMP firearms business site, how else would one be certain that the person trying to buy a NR firearm or ammunition has a valid license??

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While I support your right to conduct your business as you see fit, Canadian firearm laws are confusing and convoluted enough without people(especially those in the industry) making up 'laws' rather then being straight up.

Gothic Line Armoury
07-22-2018, 06:31 PM
While I support your right to conduct your business as you see fit, Canadian firearm laws are confusing and convoluted enough without people(especially those in the industry) making up 'laws' rather then being straight up.The requirement to only sell to an individual with a valid PAL is not a made up law. And I'll ask my question again, without referring to the RCMP firearms business site, how else would one ensure a customers PAL is valid?

http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/cfp-pcaf/fs-fd/sell-vendre-eng.htm

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RangeBob
07-22-2018, 06:33 PM
http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/cfp-pcaf/fs-fd/sell-vendre-eng.htm

That link says


When transferring a non-restricted firearm, the transferor (a seller or giver) may contact the CFP and request confirmation of whether the transferee (a buyer or recipient), at the time of transfer, holds a licence authorizing them to acquire and possess that kind of firearm.


That neither helps, nor hurts, your position.

Drache
07-22-2018, 06:34 PM
While I support your right to conduct your business as you see fit, Canadian firearm laws are confusing and convoluted enough without people(especially those in the industry) making up 'laws' rather then being straight up.

No one is making up laws. Stores are held to a different "standard" due to the CFO oversight. We know we don't "legally" have to check for one but risking your business means it's easy to jump through the hoops.

Gothic Line Armoury
07-22-2018, 06:37 PM
That link says


When transferring a non-restricted firearm, the transferor (a seller or giver) may contact the CFP and request confirmation of whether the transferee (a buyer or recipient), at the time of transfer, holds a licence authorizing them to acquire and possess that kind of firearm.


That neither helps, nor hurts, your position.The highlighted portion speaks to what I'm saying. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180723/4a7bfcaf1ff12c0aa000caeefdc8df2a.jpg

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RangeBob
07-22-2018, 06:56 PM
The highlighted portion speaks to what I'm saying.

And seeing the PAL in person satisfies due diligence that the person is the holder of a valid firearms licence. (everyone who has a PAL is authorized to purchase a non-restricted, since POLs are gone. So if they have a PAL, it's valid for that class of firearm. There was one guy whose licence said restricted only, but the CFO quickly amended his PAL)
You may double verify it by means of the Canadian Firearms Program verification service, in case it's been rejected in the past 24 hours and not collected yet, or to deal with fake PALs (Vancouver had a ring a couple years back that was creating fake ID (driver's licences, passports, SIN, credit cards, etc), and one of those was fake PALs).
It may even be economically wise and socially conscious to verify it.
But I don't think it's law.

Law is due diligence, and due diligence is satisfied by seeing the PAL (in person), or verifying it (internet transactions).

Gothic Line Armoury
07-22-2018, 06:59 PM
And seeing the PAL in person satisfies due diligence that the person is the holder of a valid firearms licence. (everyone who has a PAL is authorized to purchase a non-restricted, since POLs are gone. So if they have a PAL, it's valid for that class of firearm. There was one guy whose licence said restricted only, but the CFO quickly amended his PAL)
You may further verify it with the Canadian Firearms Program.Exactly, checking with the RCMP firearms business site confirms without a doubt that the PAL is valid. That's why I don't understand the animosity towards business that take that extra step.

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RangeBob
07-22-2018, 07:11 PM
That's why I don't understand the animosity towards business that take that extra step.

You started off by saying

I would lose my FBL if I ever did that, that is law....

and I don't think it's law.


As for the animosity, I think it has to do with Bill C-19 (2012)'s intent that the government not have a registry or count of long guns in the hands of PALers, due to privacy issues. With Bill C-19's requirement that the Canadian Firearms Program not keep a record of PAL verifications, I think that the animosity to businesses that check is largely unfounded -- although with Bill C-71 (2018) changing that so that verifications will be kept by the Canadian Firearms Program forever (reference number etc), animosity will resume but against the Liberals.

'largely unfounded' would be limited by weekend sales where the telephone verification service is unavailable, and vendors who do not transfer a firearm without doing so. A customer may travel a great distance to get to a store or gun show, expecting to purchase a non-restricted firearm on the weekend, only to discover that not only they don't get the firearm, but also have to pay shipping or drive back that long distance again. Most stores have access to the internet verification service, which is up during 9am-9pm every day of the week, baring problems at the CFP or with your internet service provider; so it's not an issue beyond a couple minute delay, other than the spectre of big brother.

Gothic Line Armoury
07-22-2018, 07:18 PM
You started off by saying


and I don't think it's law.


As for the animosity, I think it has to do with Bill C-19 (2012)'s intent that the government not have a registry or count of long guns in the hands of PALers, due to privacy issues. With Bill C-19's requirement that the Canadian Firearms Program not keep a record of PAL verifications, I think that the animosity to businesses that check is largely unfounded -- although with Bill C-71 (2018) changing that so that verifications will be kept by the Canadian Firearms Program forever (reference number etc), animosity will resume but against the Liberals.

'largely unfounded' would be limited by weekend sales where the telephone verification service is unavailable, and vendors who do not transfer a firearm without doing so. A customer may travel a great distance to get to a store or gun show, expecting to purchase a non-restricted firearm on the weekend, only to discover that not only they don't get the firearm, but also have to pay shipping or drive back that long distance again. Most stores have access to the internet verification service, which is up during 9am-9pm every day of the week, baring problems at the CFP or with your internet service provider.I stand by what I said, the law states that the person buying a firearm must have a valid PAL for the class of firearms being purchased. To sell to a person with out a valid license is illegal, so why, as a business, that has gone through the hassle and expense to get a FBL, risk that by not making that simple check? A check can be done without the recording of the information.

And yes, it can be done even on weekends, I can do it right from my phone even.

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RangeBob
07-22-2018, 07:38 PM
Hypothetical:
It takes about 10 minutes between verifying the PAL on-line, and the subsequent handing the firearm to the customer and waving good bye. What if, the RCMP revokes the PAL two seconds after you verified it. Are you guilty of selling a firearm to someone without a valid licence, because that's illegal ?

If that licence is invalid, and there is no record of the validation at the Canadian Firearms Program, do you have any evidence that you've verified it, other than your testifying to the court that you do it all the time, 100% ? Do you take screen shots of your validations, and even if you did could a crown prosecutor claim the one in question was faked by you? Do you have incontrovertible evidence of the due diligence I suggested for internet transactions? Is what you're doing a defence, for anything other than an in person sting operation of some sort where the undercover officers with an invalid PAL observe and witness you doing the verification?


Really we're evaluating gradations in due diligence.
Some lawyers say far less than I say is required, is required.
Some (most?) lawyers agree with my position, which is actually based upon their work.
You, and most businesses I think, go the extra mile, in much the same way that people going to the range often put their ammunition in a separate locked container, not because the law requires it, but because they want to go the extra mile to avoid even the appearance of impropriety with a peace officer who is not up on the nuances of the actual law. (and yet the same person will buy a firearm from a store with corresponding ammunition, and transport it home according to the minimum transport regulations, including having the ammunition in only the plastic bag the store put it in)


Even the RCMP page you reference is non-committal on the topic. It says it 'must be valid' where you highlighted, but if it's the case that in order to determine that it's valid one must verify it online, why does it say in an earlier paragraph that the seller 'may' verify it.


Personally I have no objections to a business verifying a PAL for an in person non-restricted firearm sale. Others are vehemently opposed to that.

Personally I am opposed to verifying a PAL for ammunition sales, or for just touching a firearm in a store. In the case of the former, the law specifically says the purpose of the verification is for firearms sales, not to verify the PAL for any purpose. Indeed gun ranges are not allowed to use it to verify the PALs of their members. The Canadian Firearms Program telephone verification service asks callers to verify they are selling a firearm, and if you don't say YES then they won't verify the PAL. The Canadian Firearms Program has interpreted it, correctly I think although somewhat inconveniently, as that no purpose other than firearms sales is allowed. Any other use is a violation. Yet lots of stores do it anyway.

ESnel
07-22-2018, 07:46 PM
Woah woah woah...... All you guys actually think a store selling you Firearms shouldn't be looking up your PAL on the RCMP firearms business site????

WTSF??!!

I would lose my FBL if I ever did that, that is law....

Sent from my BBD100-2 using Tapatalk


No one is making up laws. Stores are held to a different "standard" due to the CFO oversight. We know we don't "legally" have to check for one but risking your business means it's easy to jump through the hoops.


I stand by what I said, the law states that the person buying a firearm must have a valid PAL for the class of firearms being purchased. To sell to a person with out a valid license is illegal, so why, as a business, that has gone through the hassle and expense to get a FBL, risk that by not making that simple check? A check can be done without the recording of the information.

And yes, it can be done even on weekends, I can do it right from my phone even.

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rocnrol started off by saying it's the law that he must call in,I as a customer would be offend if he tried to claim the reason he was calling in the check because 'it's the law'. Had he said that store policy requires we call in and verify that's an honest statement.

Drache, you start off by saying no one is making up laws but then you say it's not a legal requirement. If your being screwed over your being screwed over but I'm asking people not to hide behind that they're industry professional and it's the law, be up front and say the CFO is abusing their power and your between a rock and a hard place.

I made a couple calls and between myself and friends we've easily made purchases(non-res firearms and/or ammo) at almost all the firearm dealer and a couple CanadianTire stores in the lower mainland and Fraser Valley. Not one of use has ever had a PAL called in.

Gothic Line Armoury
07-22-2018, 07:48 PM
Hypothetical:
It takes about 10 minutes between verifying the PAL on-line, and the subsequent handing the firearm to the customer and waving good bye. What if, the RCMP revokes the PAL two seconds after you verified it. Are you guilty of selling a firearm to someone without a valid licence, because that's illegal ?

If that licence is invalid, and there is no record of the validation at the Canadian Firearms Program, do you have any evidence that you've verified it, other than your testifying to the court that you do it all the time, 100% ? Do you take screen shots of your validations, and even if you did could a crown prosecutor claim the one in question was faked by you? Do you have incontrovertible evidence of the due diligence I suggested for internet transactions? Is what you're doing a defence, for anything other than an in person sting operation of some sort where the undercover officers with an invalid PAL observe and witness you doing the verification?


Really we're evaluating gradations in due diligence.
Some lawyers say far less than I say is required, is required.
Some (most?) lawyers agree with my position, which is actually based upon their work.
You, and most businesses I think, go the extra mile, in much the same way that people going to the range often put their ammunition in a separate locked container, not because the law requires it, but because they want to go the extra mile to avoid even the appearance of impropriety with a peace officer who is not up on the nuances of the actual law. (and yet the same person will buy a firearm from a store with corresponding ammunition, and transport it home according to the minimum transport regulations, including having the ammunition in only the plastic bag the store put it in)


Even the RCMP page you reference is non-committal on the topic. It says it 'must be valid' where you highlighted, but if it's the case that in order to determine that it's valid one must verify it online, why does it say in an earlier paragraph that the seller 'may' verify it.


Personally I have no objections to a business verifying a PAL for a non-restricted firearm sale. Others are vehemently opposed to that.

Personally I am opposed to verifying a PAL for ammunition sales, or for just touching a firearm in a store. In the case of the former, the law specifically says the purpose of the verification is for firearms sales, not to verify the PAL for any purpose. Indeed gun ranges are not allowed to use it to verify the PALs of their members. The Canadian Firearms Program telephone verification service asks callers to verify they are selling a firearm, and if you don't say YES then they won't verify the PAL. The Canadian Firearms Program has interpreted it, correctly I think although somewhat inconveniently, as that no purpose other than firearms sales is allowed. Any other use is a violation. Yet lots of stores do it anyway.Rangebob..... Great post and well said.

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