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View Full Version : Options for double optics? (Scope and irons).



Petamocto
12-02-2018, 01:46 PM
After spending the last week hunting I've come to two conclusions:

1. The Benelli SuperNova is a great goose gun due to it being 3.5" and being a beefy heavy gun to eat up the recoil, but it's too heavy to bush bash with, so I'm selling mine and going with the Weatherby PA-459.

2. As per the other thread about not liking the Vortex Spitfire 3x, I'm wondering what my options are for double optics (scope and irons).

https://www.shootingillustrated.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/PA-459TR_8shot.jpg

The PA-459 has a fairly short rail, and I'm not sure if I'll be able to swap it out with a longer one. It comes with ghost rings with a removable rear, and that rear would likely get in the way of a scope, even with high rings, so here are some options that I'd appreciate input on:

- Some form of super high mounted rings that you can see through. I'm not even sure if you can get rings high enough to get the rear of the scope up and over that rear iron.

- Some form of normal high mount really long cantilever see-through scope mount that lets you see through it to still use the irons because the scope is set up far enough forward that it's like a scout scope.

- Ditch the rear iron, go with a normal scope, and try to mount offset 45-degree irons if there is enough rail left.

- Is there any scope that has a decent iron set on top of it? Kind of like the Army's C79 that has a battle sight on the top in case the optic getting snowy or muddy, but that's more of a clumsy one instead of a good one.

- Is there a decent conventional scope that comes with rails on the top to put the irons on top of the scope? I've seen tactical scopes that had this but not conventional scopes. Or, rings with rails on top that I could mount irons on, but then they'd only be a few inches apart so not that accurate (?)

- Have the scope and mount something like a laser backup instead of irons, which can be mounted from any angle.

Thank you for any input or ideas.

Rory McCanuck
12-02-2018, 07:52 PM
They make see through rings.
You need a step ladder to be able to see through the scope, but they exist.
Weaver makes them.
They also used to make tip-off rings so you can just swing the scope off to the side, but I can't find them on their site.

kennymo
12-02-2018, 08:02 PM
10374

The old timers used to use these on their hunting guns. Sold as ‘see through’ or ‘view through’ scope rings. There’s a couple different styles out there, all basically really high rings with a window of sorts in the lower portion. I never cared for the extremely high scope position, makes for lousy cheekweld, which will probably be made worse by the type of stock those tactical shotguns have. Personally, I’d look for a quality quick detachable ring/mount if I were attempting to do what you are. I have a 1-4x 30mm with a red and green illuminated reticle that would probably be damn near perfect for your setup though. I use it on my 45/70 guide gun, with the intentions of it being the ‘up close at the last second of legal light’ gun. Illuminated zero magnification for up close action, moderate zoom for longer shots, works with or without batteries. At that point, screw the irons.....

Petamocto
12-03-2018, 08:36 AM
Kennymo,

Thank you for posting those. I have seen rings with see-through portions before, but never that wide open. I'd ask you where you got that pic from, but it's not a picatinny base so I couldn't use them anyway. Ebay nor Amazon has anything with that large of a window.

I know the extra high cheek (chin?) position would make it awkward, but it's worth it for me to make sure I get the right shot placement if a deer is 100m away.

kennymo
12-03-2018, 08:44 AM
https://www.cabelas.ca/product/6316/weaver-see-thru-rings

Weaver makes a set that should work. (Yes out of stock, but for illustrative purposes)

I still think a 1-4x or 1-6x optic with illumination would give you everything you’re looking for with less hassle.

Run 'n' Gun
12-03-2018, 09:06 AM
You could also add a set of 45* bases and mount the scope to the side. I have a similar set up on the AR, works well.

Petamocto
12-03-2018, 10:08 AM
Interesting. I’d thought of offset (45 degree), but not for the scope itself. I had thought of 45 degree iron sight but then I’d have a very small sight to sight distance.

I guess an offset scope would allow me to keep the irons the same, but wow that would be a challenge to have the angled scope match the angle of the gun.

Thank you for the suggestion, I will look into it.

Run 'n' Gun
12-03-2018, 10:54 AM
I guess I should clarify, I have a Vortex reflex on the 45. the scope is straight up.

Also, maybe a 1x-? variable with a dot might work for you. Just keep it @ 1x while walking and zoom when you need it.

Petamocto
12-03-2018, 11:07 AM
...Also, maybe a 1x-? variable with a dot might work for you. Just keep it @ 1x while walking and zoom when you need it.

Not after what I had happen last week. I don't want anything that has any potential to fog up or get covered in snow when going through snow-covered bushes.

I know that technically irons can fill up with snow, too, but obviously as soon as they're cleared you can shoot from them, as opposed to a wet piece of glass.

Whatever set up I go with will have to have a set of basic irons on it.

Since reading your first post I did look into 45 offset scope rings and they do exist, which would leave me my unimpeded irons as-is, but I'm worried that it would interfere with casings trying to be ejected.

I've got offset 45 flip-up irons on my AR now, but it's also a full rail so I have the room to play, the shotgun I'm buying just has the short rail.

kennymo
12-03-2018, 11:08 AM
Interesting. I’d thought of offset (45 degree), but not for the scope itself. I had thought of 45 degree iron sight but then I’d have a very small sight to sight distance.

I guess an offset scope would allow me to keep the irons the same, but wow that would be a challenge to have the angled scope match the angle of the gun.

Thank you for the suggestion, I will look into it.

A set of those little scope mounting levels are your best friend for that sort of thing.

See through spring loaded scope covers work well for your snow issue. I used to keep them on the objective end of a couple scopes (I found I don’t get too much debris in the eyepiece). You lose a little clarity, but still good for quick action up close. If you’ve got more time to aim or there’s snow/rain/ice/crap on the lens, tap a lever and it goes away.

Rory McCanuck
12-03-2018, 01:39 PM
Also, maybe a 1x-? variable with a dot might work for you. Just keep it @ 1x while walking and zoom when you need it.



See through spring loaded scope covers work well for your snow issue. I used to keep them on the objective end of a couple scopes (I found I don’t get too much debris in the eyepiece). You lose a little clarity, but still good for quick action up close. If you’ve got more time to aim or there’s snow/rain/ice/crap on the lens, tap a lever and it goes away.
Yes, and yes.
https://www.cabelas.ca/product/730/butler-creek-blizzard-see-through-scope-covers
https://proxy.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fmedia.midwayusa.com%2Fproductimag es%2F880x660%2FPrimary%2F712%2F712122.jpg&f=1

They really help to keep the kakah off your lenses, and they're instantly ready.
If they're iced/fogged up, they pop open almost instantly, as your thumbs are already pretty much right there.
It takes a special set of circumstances to be able to fog up both the covers and then the lenses underneath.
I was able to accomplish it this year, but I'm kinda speshul...

I find the band around the clear lens blocks a bunch of light right at dusk or dawn, so I just pop them open as I'm bringing the rifle up.
I have them on all the hunting rifles' scopes, and most of the others' too.
Even just keeping the dust off is nice.

Petamocto
12-03-2018, 01:54 PM
Rory,

Great option for someone who just focuses on those other issues, but I really want to keep irons.

Something happened to my scope last week (likely on the flight getting banged around) that knocked my scope completely out of alignment, not just by inches but by feet.

If that ever happens again, I want irons to be able to hit things at close range through irons, which allows the quickest possible target identification.

Great thing to have on my other guns, though, and I think I may pick some up for my conventional rifles.

Edit: that Cabela's page seems to have an awful lot of low ratings, with the main complaint being that they won't stay closed (?)

Rory McCanuck
12-03-2018, 03:14 PM
I'm still a fan of the old Tasco-type rings, with the slotted nut on the cross bolt.
That way, if something happens to your scope, a quarter and some determination can pull it off and you can still use the sights.
Not as convenient as flipping out of the way or see-though mounts, but more secure and more useable than either.
And let's be honest, scopes are of such good quality nowadays they just don't fail like they used to.

For the lens covers, yes they pop open.
That's because they bought the one a touch too small and it's stretched over the bell.
I find it seems to work better if you get the next one up that is just a bit big, then a couple wraps of electrical tape to build up the diameter of the scope to hold the cover tightly.
I need to do that to the rear cover on my 280 I was carrying this year, the cover would pop off putting it into the guncase.
I also need to get one size bigger for the front, as it kept popping open.
Even so, it just wasn't that much of an annoyance while pushing through the bush.
Just click it closed again, certainly not worth writing a bad review because I forced on the wrong sized one.

RobertMcC
12-03-2018, 03:22 PM
I'm still a fan of the old Tasco-type rings, with the slotted nut on the cross bolt.
That way, if something happens to your scope, a quarter and some determination can pull it off and you can still use the sights.
Not as convenient as flipping out of the way or see-though mounts, but more secure and more useable than either.
And let's be honest, scopes are of such good quality nowadays they just don't fail like they used to.

For the lens covers, yes they pop open.
That's because they bought the one a touch too small and it's stretched over the bell.
I find it seems to work better if you get the next one up that is just a bit big, then a couple wraps of electrical tape to build up the diameter of the scope to hold the cover tightly.
I need to do that to the rear cover on my 280 I was carrying this year, the cover would pop off putting it into the guncase.
I also need to get one size bigger for the front, as it kept popping open.
Even so, it just wasn't that much of an annoyance while pushing through the bush.
Just click it closed again, certainly not worth writing a bad review because I forced on the wrong sized one.

I personally like the old weaver tip off rings. Only 2 screws to deal with trying to align. And one thumb screw, anything flat, Can be used to take them off.

Petamocto
12-03-2018, 04:15 PM
I’m not going with anything that requires installing or uninstalling.

I need something that I can walk through the woods with, and quickly make a snap shot with irons if I get a chance shot at a close deer, or make a quick shot with a scope if I see a deer at 75+

Rory McCanuck
12-03-2018, 04:40 PM
If you ever find such an animal, please let us know.
I'd buy one or three.

Likeaboss
12-03-2018, 04:53 PM
You want a bicycle (reliable, slow) and a motorcycle (fast, runs out of gas) and are looking for the best moped. I'd choose one or the other and plan my travel accordingly. I wouldn't pursue the moped option, which does neither well.

No, I'm not talking about making your gun go fast...

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

Petamocto
12-03-2018, 05:10 PM
I disagree. If anything, that’s closer to the 3x red dot I had before with the Vortex 3x.

A scope and irons at the same time can be the best of both worlds, I’m just looking for opinions on how to pull both off.

Super high see-through rings are the leading candidate so far.

kennymo
12-03-2018, 05:16 PM
best of both worlds


Super high see-through rings

We’re just trying to tell you there’s a reason not many people go this route anymore. It’s been done, and it sounds a lot better than the actual end result. One of those ‘great on paper’ kinda things.....

Likeaboss
12-03-2018, 05:33 PM
I disagree. If anything, thatís closer to the 3x red dot I had before with the Vortex 3x.

A scope and irons at the same time can be the best of both worlds, Iím just looking for opinions on how to pull both off.

Super high see-through rings are the leading candidate so far.




Weíre just trying to tell you thereís a reason not many people go this route anymore. Itís been done, and it sounds a lot better than the actual end result. One of those Ďgreat on paperí kinda things.....

Yep, that's my point. Super-high see-through = moped.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

Dewey Cox
12-03-2018, 08:32 PM
Could you rig up some of those diagonal flip up sights like you see on AR's?
Cover that shotgun in rails and AR style accessories.

Petamocto
12-04-2018, 05:44 AM
Could you rig up some of those diagonal flip up sights like you see on AR's?
Cover that shotgun in rails and AR style accessories.

Yes it’s possible, and a lot easier if I add extra rails or a rail extension.

I can’t really do it with the short rail on there now because the sight to sight distance would be about 3”

Petamocto
12-09-2018, 04:38 PM
Working on the solution. I have a single-piece base that’s not huge, but still goes over the very short rail. I’d look at getting a longer rail, but the measurements are really weird. Not sure who would make a longer rail that fits in just those three. Here’s what the base looks like on it. I’d really prefer having all the points screwed down if possible, especially with shotgun recoil.

10484

The good news is that it actually seems to work. Even with a decent size Leupold VX3, the see through portion allows for the irons to be used uninterrupted.

10485

That’s with a cheek weld. This is that the scope looks like with a chin weld.

Petamocto
12-09-2018, 04:41 PM
Sorry, screwed up the last post.

10487