View Full Version : Marathon of 21 Senate witnesses in one day for Liberal gun bill

02-13-2019, 11:05 PM
Feb 13, 2019
Ottawa, Ontario

A lengthy list of witnesses planned for the first Senate committee hearing on Liberal legislation tightening control over sales of rifles and shotguns suggests the bill might quickly win approval in the upper chamber after languishing in Parliament for nearly a year.

Out of roughly 40 witnesses the Senate Defence and National Security expects, half are slotted for a six-hour marathon of testimony when the hearings launch next Monday.

The slate of witnesses suggest also that another topic — a Liberal government review of possible handgun and assault rifle bans in Canada — might also emerge.

The 21 witnesses cover the range of positions on gun control — from the founder of Toronto-based Zero Gun Violence Movement to the three most prominent firearm rights lobbies in Canada.

The witness list is topped by University of Ottawa professor Irvin Waller, who has researched and focused on efforts to reduce gun violence in several countries, including Canada, Mexico and the United States, and a University of Toronto sociologist who focuses on the effects of gun violence among young Black men in the U.S.

Also high up on the witness list is Michèle Audette, commissioner of the National Inquiry into Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls, and Ghislain Picard, chief of the Assembly of First Nations of Quebec and Labrador.

Alison Irons, who launched a scholarship in 2013 in honour of her daughter after she was shot to death in Bracebridge, Ont., is also appearing in the first round.

Irons, along with other witnesses appearing at the Senate hearings, testified at the House of Commons Public Safety Committee in May 2018, after Public Safety Minister Ralph Goodale introduced the gun legislation, Bill C-71, in March that year.

“I often hear about the rights of hunters and ranchers in rural areas to defend their property and so on and so forth,” Irons said then.

“I’m not trying to get rid of all guns, but what about the rights of women and children to have equal standing under the law and be protected from the use of those long guns to kill them?” she said. “I don’t hear that in the debate.”

Also appearing before the committee is the leader of a Quebec mosque where six people were killed by a lone gunman in 2017 who called for a ban on assault rifles following the shootings.

Prominent gun-control advocate Wendy Cukier appears on the same panel.

Rod Giltaca, founder and chief executive officer of the Canadian Coalition for Firearm Rights, is scheduled to appear along with two other firearm lobby groups in the final rounds of testimony that begin at 8 p.m. and conclude at 10 p.m.

The other late-evening appearances include Sheldon Clare, president of the British Columbia-based National Firearms Association, and Tony Benardo, executive director of the Canadian Shooting Sports Federation.

One of the best-known gun-rights advocates in Canada, former Reform party researcher and political assistant Dennis Young, is also scheduled for a late appearance by video conference from Alberta.


02-13-2019, 11:39 PM
My concern is that they're going to be so sick and tired of hearing about this issue that at a certain point (I'd say right when those opposed to C-71 start) that they're going to tune out and ignore everything. That they aren't going to want to listen to the facts and truth when it's critical. That once they hear the emotional pleas of those affected by violence that's all that they're going to think of.

Also, no disrespect but why should Michèle Audette and Ghislain Picard get a say? They really don't seem, to me at least, to have anything to do with this. They're not experts on firearms in any way. Picard being a native leader is not a good enough reason. If memory serves Audette's group has been a bit of a flub when it comes to even producing anything of use. So all it seems like she'd do is waste time and parrot talking points handed to her by her liberally funded masters.

As much as I dislike Cukier, at least she kind of has a reason to be there. Though I hope she gets very little time to speak and blows it on sounding crazier than normal. (Like she pulls out some bogus "facts" about she thinks how "assault rifles" can fire 400 rounds a second and put cannon ball sized holes in things. Basically crazy enough that even the senate can see she's completely out to lunch and has no idea what she's talking about and therefore should summarily be dismissed.)

02-14-2019, 12:01 AM
We're up against it this time.
I trust in our advocates and Senator Plett, but they've got their work cut out for them.

02-14-2019, 07:40 AM
This is pretty rammy. That's basically every witness I could have named all in the first day. Yay democracy.

02-14-2019, 08:55 AM
It really is absurd that we allow non-experts to be witnesses for these sorts of things.

What does a Native leader have to do with gun policy? Nothing. Why not invite the NFL commissioner because he's an expert in a different field.

What does someone who doesn't like guns have to do with gun policy? Nothing. Do people who hate medicine get invited to speak at medical conferences?

What does a victim of a shooting have to do with gun policy? Nothing more than a plane crash survivor has to offer a symposium on future aircraft laws.

02-14-2019, 01:38 PM
This is pretty rammy. That's basically every witness I could have named all in the first day. Yay democracy.

With any luck Wendy won't appear without anyone to oppose her, the way she did at SECU when she appeared as the only witness for an hour.
The other witness who was supposed to be there that hour, was inexperienced and wouldn't have been able to handle Wendy anyway, but he didn't even show up -- leaving Wendy alone with the SECU committee and the Liberal MPs fawning over her.

Similarly there was a CBC gun issues show years back, where after a panel of 3 (anchor, 1 anti, 1 neither, 1 pro} for 20 minutes, Wendy got to follow that alone and give her position on what had been said in the prior 20 minutes, and then field three or four softball questions by the anchor that possibly were submitted by Wendy as topics she'd like to discuss -- it was said at the time that the only way she'd agree to be there was if they put her on without opposition, without debate, and to get the last word.

No such luck.
I see from the witness list that from 7-8 p.m. these are together.
- Coalition for Gun Control -Wendy Cukier, President
- Canadian Doctors for Protection from Guns -Najma Ahmed
- As an individual -Alison Irons
- Centre culturel islamique de Québec -Boufeldja Benabdallah, President and Co-Founder

But at least they're followed by the Orgs.

02-14-2019, 02:50 PM
It's the Senate. 8 pm is bedtime.

02-14-2019, 03:34 PM
It’s a dog and pony show. The decision has been made, the fix is in.
The only thing we can do now is do our best to turf Trudeau, and hold Scheer to his promise to repeal C-71.

02-14-2019, 04:09 PM
Repeal just gets us back to where we are, well, today. The promises they've already made are excellent. We will have to be united when the time comes and make sure they happen right away. We will only get one chance, so I hope some law talking guy from our side is going to help them write up this bill and gets us as much as they can. Wendy sure helps the Liberals.

02-14-2019, 06:53 PM
Repeal just gets us back to where we are, well, today. .

you have all your guns today,, right?

02-14-2019, 08:28 PM
It’s a dog and pony show. The decision has been made, the fix is in.
The only thing we can do now is do our best to turf Trudeau, and hold Scheer to his promise to repeal C-71.

:agree:....It is a done deal , and is going to be rammed through . At this point it might be best to support the CPC , and hope that Trudeau's Liberals self destruct from within by Oct .

02-14-2019, 08:38 PM
you have all your guns today,, right?

I will have the same number, unless they start banning stuff through OIC. Some others may not. One would think they would tell the RCMP to lay off the Gestapo stuff until after the election, but history has not backed this up.

02-15-2019, 12:02 PM
"...list of witnesses..." I wonder exactly what it is they saw.
"...these are together..." Not surprising to have unqualified people talking about things they know nothing about. Kookie Wendy has been trying to stay on the Public Trough since The Chretien Gang was tossed out.

02-18-2019, 09:58 PM
If anyone didn't listen to today's 4pm until just now senate hearing,
I typed out a lot of it as it was happening at

02-19-2019, 01:53 AM
you have all your guns today,, right?

I have the guns I've been ALLOWED to buy. And as long as I pay the extortion and keep my head down, I MAY get to keep them.
Decriminalization of peaceful possession needs to happen, before any fixes to classes or transport or wilderness carry.

02-19-2019, 01:07 PM
Did any Senator ask Cukier how many members the CGCC has and where they get their funding?

02-19-2019, 01:08 PM
you have all your guns today,, right?


02-19-2019, 01:28 PM
Wednesday's meeting is now In Camera. I had thought the witnesses included the RCMP.

02-19-2019, 02:02 PM
Did any Senator ask Cukier how many members the CGCC has and where they get their funding?

I don't think they asked Cukier how many members she had.
They did ask her about federal funding.

02-20-2019, 12:46 PM
I don't think they asked Cukier how many members she had.
They did ask her about federal funding.

Well that's something at least. Did she answer?

02-20-2019, 01:46 PM
Well that's something at least. Did she answer?

You'll have to wait for the transcript.
All I have is this
(I took notes during the hearing at https://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php/1834241-Marathon-of-21-Senate-witnesses-in-one-day-for-Liberal-gun-bill?p=15709187&viewfull=1#post15709187 )

Senator Marilou McPhedran : You're providing a lot of methodologically sound, internationally recognized evidence, for our evidence based review. Cukier, re femicide, could you sumorize the financial sources of the Coalition for Gun Control ?

Cukier - We don't accept. Last was in 1992(?) ...

non sequtor

I've been listening to Wendy Cukier for the past ten minutes. Just repeating what she said at the last hearings
- she mixed up the Toronto stats with the NWEST stats, saying that the Toronto stats were a sample, and she compared that to the samples from 1995 that she saw.

Dr. Najma Ahmed (Canadian Doctors for Protection from Guns) - gun shot wounds are much more lethal than stabbings by an order of magnitude, even though stabbings are twice as often. Guns can kill multiple people in seconds.

Senator Jean-Guy Dagenais : asks about sources of gang firearms, crime guns?

Cukier : She's referring to Toronto stats, 33% were sourced to Canadian owners (stolen?). Now over 50%. That's consistent with the B.C. study from 2018, which said that 60% were sourced in Canada.

(CCFR's Tracey Wilson, Rod Giltaca, and one other; and NFA's Sheldon Clair; are sitting behind them not looking happy)

Dr. Najma Ahmed - recent evidence of world body of literature. Langmann's methodology is weak, did not include suicides (semi-false), did not include injuries, including only completed homicides. Mauser's report has never been cited in the medical literature, and doesn't appear anywhere that physicians study Gun Disease.

Cukier : Mauser's CCW study, was funded by the NRA. He took the sample and extrapolated the number of people in the country, and compared it to Hemingway's study where UFOs were seen. [Irony here that she formerly talked about sample sizes being applicable for number of domestic guns, but here she disagrees with it] World Health Organization are on the side of accessibility thesis, and regulation of firearms.

Senator Pratte: 2013 is not significant?

Cukier : Interesting point. Inflection point, or dramatic reversal in trend. In general with progressive strengthening there's been a decline in suicide, in domestic homicide. Australian success success story, Canadian we've seen a reversal in that trend. It's early to say that it will continue for the next decade. Now we have 1 million restricted, in 10 years we'll have 2 million and it'll be impossible to reverse that trend. We've seen a relaxation of controls without any benefits, and why would legislators not want to include public safety rather than putting it in jeopardy.

Senator Marc Gold : It's unfair that the CCFR is going to follow Cukier, since Cukier won't be able to comment on CCFR's presentation. CCFR says it's unethical for these lobby doctors to be radically pushing their agenda. Comment on why you and your colegues are making a contribution, and are legitimate.

Dr. Najma Ahmed - we are not a small group. We've been endorsed by several large national organizations with hundreds and thousands of members [They didn't do a survey of members; this is a common anti-techique]. This is our lane, because we speak on behalf of patients who can not speak themselves. Asbestos, tobacco, seat belts, it si our professional obligation to inform senators what we see and what we know so that you can make the public safe. We have a long tradition that goes back to the colora epidemics, it would be immoral if we didn't. Same with physicians in the USA. We are motivated by the public good, that is my only motivation, so we can stop seeing these preventable injuries night after night, weekend after weekend.

Senator Paul McIntyre : We all agree that the federal government should work with provinces to require mandatory reporting by doctors of anyone who shouldn't possess firearms. Do you think

Cukier :I don't know enough about the provincial mental health acts to comment, but in addition to having the legisation, and in addition to what se see in many provinces about not allowing people to drive motor vehicles. The other piece that's critically important is informing the public about the risks associated with having a firearm in the home when a child is present. Risks of having a child killed with a gun are higher in rural alberta than in downtown toronto, because suicide is such a scourge, and suicide with firearms is a major problem.

Dr. Julie Maggi - I think merging provincial and federal mental health legislation is a complicated problem. There's privacy within the mental health act. My own sense is I can't give a short answer to that, and it's beyond my expertise.

Senator Paul McIntyre : We treat people in mental health institutes, then they get out and commit a criminal act. I think the provincial and federal acts should be tied in.

Senator Marilou McPhedran : You're providing a lot of methodologically sound, internationally recognized evidence, for our evidence based review. Cukier, re femicide, could you sumorize the financial sources of the Coalition for Gun Control ?

Cukier - We don't accept. Last was in ...

Senator Marilou McPhedran : Statcan number of people reporting a firearms incident increased , with an over 50% female violence. Statcan says most popular domestic gun is rifles and shotguns, reaching 88%. Opponents say that this is not relevant to violence against women and girls in Canada.

Cukier - Most of the major women's orgs in Canada, like WYCA, Canadian Womens Foundation, etc support the Coalition for Gun Control and support Bill C71. The Sheafer Clinic led a charter challenge against the law. They support the legislation from the ground.
One of the mistakes is the framing of a rural vs urban issue. That's rural men who own guns, not rural women. I cite the study that was done in New Brunswick, where there are higher rates of gun violence, that study gives a visceral understanding of women being threatened, children being threatened, family pets being threatened. [I've read this study, and it says that registration and licencing is not effective according to the women there] States that fail to properly protect women from guns with regulation are failing international rights. There are no firearm rights in Canada.There is a right to freedom from fear. There are rights to not have gender based.

Senator Bev Busson - in your experiences aroudn what you've seen, in the emergnecy room, are the guns legal or not, comment on the injuries that you've seen. Injuries that are non-fatal, are life changing, moreso than a kinfe wound.

Dr. Najma Ahmed -Often studies talk about death. Injuries. These are high velocity missiles, that tear through the tissues, and organs, and blood vessels. When we open up their body cavities, their whole blood volume is on the floor, as the medical personnel race to keep this person from death. 100s of units of blood being transfused. Weeks in ICU. Imagine the relatives int he waiting room for weeks, then they go to reabilitation centers where they learn to walk again, speak again, eat again. These are young people. Then there's the emotional and mental disability, of being a victim, having lost their youth, 17 year olds 24 year odls, they're shot in the spine and they never walk again. They survive at great cost to the medial system, to their familiees, to theem selves, and thse are all preventable.

Allison Irons - I was an executive in government. From the day my daughter was killed I've been unable to work. Major depressive disorder, complicated grief disorder. Lost a child, and lost due to violence. I've got onset auto imune disease, I now have six specialists, a psychotherapist, I'm on six meduations, some days I cant get out of bed. Some of my daughters friends lost their jobs. The university had to buss people. Multiple police officres have PTSD as a direct effect of trying to save my daughter's life. My daughter's death is not about 1 person. It's about hundreds of people. We had to have 2 funerals because there were 700 people. My daughter looked after children iwth disabilities, and that whole organization had to have a meeting to decide how to deal with the staff's trauma, while they had to look after those disadvantaged children. There are 2.2 million in the gun lobby, but there are thousand and thousands of us. Lets get the damn bill passed.

Dr. Najma Ahmed - it's random. It can happen to anyone anywhere.

Cukier - health canda is spending more time looking at BBQ brushes than they are at this. I thikn we need to shift the discussion from gangs and guns, and onto the ripple effects.

02-20-2019, 02:55 PM
Thanks RB. You should get some sort of award that includes free beer!

02-21-2019, 07:35 PM
so what's happening,, everything total shut down till Oct

02-24-2019, 09:52 PM

Monday, February 25, 2019
11:00 AM
Location: Room W110, 1 Wellington St.
Clerk: Mark Palmer (613) 993-9035

* Agenda

Bill C-71, An Act to amend certain Acts and Regulations in relation to firearms


11 a.m. - 12 p.m.

Groupe des étudiants et diplômés de Polytechnique pour le contrôle des armes (Polysesouvient)
-Heidi Rathjen, Coordinator
-Nathalie Provost, Spokesperson
Canadian Paediatric Society
-Dr. Natasha Saunders, Physician, Hospital for Sick Children
-Wendy Vasquez, Spokesperson

12:05 p.m. - 1:05 p.m.

Silverdale Gun Club
-Dave Partanen, Spokesperson
Toronto Firearm Safety Services
-Marty Kerluck, Owner
Calibre - Canada's Firearm Magazine
-Daniel Fritter, Publisher

1:10 p.m. - 2:10 p.m.

Association québécoise de prévention du suicide
-Jérôme Gaudreault, Director General
Coalition for Gun Control
-Dr. Barbara Kane, Psychiatrist

BREAK (2:10 p.m. - 2:45 p.m.)


2:45 p.m. - 3:45 p.m.

As individuals
-Gary Mauser, Professor Emeritus, Simon Fraser University
-Dr. Caillin Langman, Assistant Clinical Professor of Medicine, McMaster University
-Irwin M. Cohen, Director, Centre for Public Safety and Criminal Justice Research, University of the Fraser Valley (by video conference)

3:50 p.m. - 4:50 p.m.

Canadian Sporting Arms and Ammunition Association
-Wes Winkel, President
-Alison de Groot, Director
Firearms Outlet Canada
-Adam Caruana, Director
Wolverine Supplies
-Matthew Hipwell

5 p.m. - 6 p.m.

Centre culturel islamique de Québec
-Boufeldja Benabdallah, President and Co-Founder
As individuals
-Jooyoung Lee, Associate Professor of Sociology, University of Toronto
-Professor Brian Mishara, Department of Psychology, Universtié du Québec à Montréal (by video conference)

Meeting with Reporting and Interpretation
* Please note meeting changes.

02-25-2019, 06:00 AM
That 11am-12am list, no way could I watch that without having a heart attack lol.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

Neil Burke
02-25-2019, 06:05 AM
So did Provost resign her firearms advisory council seat?

02-25-2019, 01:45 PM
So did Provost resign her firearms advisory council seat?

Not that I've heard.
John Major left.
There are two new members recently.

Members of the Canadian Firearms Advisory Committee, Feb 2019, added
new members: the Honourable Wallace Oppal, Q.C. has been appointed as the new Chair, and Ms. Christine Creyke has been appointed as a member. Mr. Oppal is the former Attorney General of British Columbia and Minister for Multiculturalism, and served on the B.C. Supreme Court from 1985 to 2003. Ms. Creyke is a member of Canada's Indigenous community and is the Lands Director for the Tahltan Central Government. In this role she is responsible for managing environment, wildlife and resources throughout the Territory. Mr. Oppal and Ms. Creyke participated in their first Committee meeting today.

Members of the Canadian Firearms Advisory Committee, 2017
•Biography of Chair, The Honourable John C. Major, C.C., Q.C.
•Biography of Vice-Chair Lynda Kiejko
•Biography of Vice-Chair Nathalie Provost
•Biography of Ron Bonnett
•Biography of James Ernest Couch
•Biography of Barbara Genge
•Biography of Dr. Suzanne Jackson
•Biography of Dr. Paul Pageau
•Biography of Paulette Senior
•Biography of Clive Weighill, C.O.M.

02-25-2019, 05:26 PM
I typed in the last few hours of today's Senate SECD meeting at
(sort of a bad transcript, scattered across 7 pages of posts)

02-26-2019, 07:23 PM
Bob. I can not find this anywhere else. Can you. https://www.facebook.com/craig.macdougall.75/videos/10161669680580413/UzpfSTUzNTgzNzkzMzoxMDE1NjIzODQyNDk1NzkzNA/ (https://www.facebook.com/craig.macdougall.75/videos/10161669680580413/UzpfSTUzNTgzNzkzMzoxMDE1NjIzODQyNDk1NzkzNA/)

02-26-2019, 07:42 PM
Bob. I can not find this anywhere else. Can you. https://www.facebook.com/craig.macdougall.75/videos/10161669680580413/UzpfSTUzNTgzNzkzMzoxMDE1NjIzODQyNDk1NzkzNA/ (https://www.facebook.com/craig.macdougall.75/videos/10161669680580413/UzpfSTUzNTgzNzkzMzoxMDE1NjIzODQyNDk1NzkzNA/)

The long version 11am until 6+pm is on the senate website.
Click on the camera icon to watch.

Witnesses have been emailed the transcript, but it's not yet on the senate website.