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RangeBob
05-07-2019, 06:44 PM
May 7 2019
Ottawa, Ontario

A Liberal government gun bill that has drawn resistance from some gun owners since Public Safety Minister Ralph Goodale tabled it in the House of Commons more than a year ago is set to pass its final vote in Parliament this week.

The Senate majority of Independent senators, and a small group of independent Liberal senators still remaining in the Upper Chamber on Thursday voted to reject a version of Bill C-71 that had been stripped of its most significant clauses by Conservative senators in the Senate’s national security and defence committee.

The vote essentially cancelled the Conservative amendments and returned the legislation to its original form as passed by the Commons, with a final vote in the Senate on Thursday.

The Conservatives, a slim minority on the panel, had overcome the majority of Independents in the committee as nonaffiliated Senator David Richards sided with the Conservatives when they dismantled the bill in committee and Independent Senator Diane Griffin abstained on key votes that wiped out some of the most important clauses.

“By leaders’ agreement, we should have third reading by the end of this week,” said the leader of the government in the Senate, Senator Peter Harder, who is styled as a nonaffiliated senator under Senate reforms Prime Minister Justin Trudeau initiated after taking office in 2015.

The leader of the Independent Senators Group, who is styled as Facilitator of the Independents (now the overwhelming majority in the 105-seat Senate), confirmed a final vote could take place as early as Thursday.

Debate on the report began in the early evening.

“Everybody understands the different pathways that can be taken,” said Independent Facilitator Yuen Pau Woo. “We’re debating the report now, so there’s supposed to be a report on the report, possibly today, let’s see how it goes.”

“That was part of the arrangement. We either vote for the report or we vote against it. If we vote either way, we go into third reading and then the plan is to have the third reading vote on Thursday.”

The amended report from the committee was rejected in a 51-32 vote with three abstentions.

Conservative Senate whip Don Plett had earlier said there was no guarantee Bill C-71 would reach its final vote this week and made a list-minute appeal to the Independent senators to accept the version reported by the committee and sent the bill back to the Commons for the government to either reject or accept some of the Conservative amendments.

Goodale made his final appearance to defend the bill in the Senate daily question period on Tuesday, another change in Senate routines under the Trudeau government.

A shot from Plett during the question period — when he alluded to a recent news report that the government had vetted names of potential judicial appointments through a Liberal party database of supporters — drew a sharp response from Goodale.

“There are senators in this chamber who seem a bit squeamish about making significant changes to your legislation,” said Plett, a firebrand senator from Manitoba who is the lead Conservative strategist for bills going through Senate committee passage.

“I’m not sure if that’s because they were appointed from the Liberal list or they just don’t think you’re up to the job of defending your own legislation,” Plett said across the chamber aisle to Goodale, placed in a seat beside Harder.

“So to be clear, if this chamber chooses to respect the democratic process and adopt the committee’s report, your government has no problems with that, and you are prepared to consider these amendments in the other place and make any changes you feel necessary?” said Plett, a longtime president of the Conservative Party of Canada national council appointed to the Senate by former Conservative prime minister Stephen Harper.

“I think it’s always wise for the democratic process to take its normal course,” Goodale responded. “In both the House of Commons and in the Senate, people have the full and free right to debate within the rules of Parliamentary procedure and present their ideas.”

“Those ideas come to a vote at the end of the day and over the course of 153 years that process has served Canada rather well,” Goodale said.

“I think it’s also advisable for debate to remain civil and dignified and for the highest of decorum to be maintained in both houses.”

The new gun law, which still must pass the final Senate vote and receive Royal Assent before taking effect, proposes lifetime background checks for gun licence applicants and also for those renewing licences.

The bill primarily covers nonrestricted gun sales and sales records, but it also includes clauses dealing with restricted handguns and semi-automatic rifles that can be only used for shooting sports.

Gun owners were furious over the reinstatement of permits for each time a gun owner transports a restricted firearm to a gunsmith, gun show or border point.

Permits will not be required to transport restricted firearms to shooting ranges.

The bill also proposes to reverse a decision by the former Harper government to ease restrictions on certain imported semi-automatic rifles.

Before the 2015 federal election, the Harper government amended the Criminal Code to give cabinet the power to overrule an RCMP decision to reclassify the rifles as either restricted or prohibited, rather than nonrestricted or restricted, depending on the rifle make.

Gun owners and the Conservative party also oppose the reinstatement of mandatory records of gun sales, and a compulsory system for keeping track of whether gun licences are valid before sales go through.

hxxps://ipolitics.ca/2019/05/07/liberal-gun-bill-finally-set-to-clear-parliament/

awndray
05-07-2019, 06:46 PM
"Independent." Sure.

Uh, and what the hell is that last paragraph going on about?

Gunexpert007
05-07-2019, 06:51 PM
Any one know how long Royal Assent takes after the final vote on the Bill ? When will C-71 actually become law ?

awndray
05-07-2019, 07:05 PM
"While an act may come into force on the day on which Royal Assent is given, it should be noted that some bills contain provisions that the act (or part of the act) will come into force on a specific day or on a day to be fixed by proclamation. The determination of when such an act will be proclaimed is made by the government on the recommendation of the minister responsible for the act."

https://sencanada.ca/en/about/procedural-references/notes/n6

RangeBob
05-07-2019, 07:13 PM
Coming into Force
Order in council
22 (1) Section 1, subsections 3(2) and 4(2) and sections 16 and 18 to 21 come into force on a day to be fixed by order of the Governor in Council.
Order in council
(2) Section 2 comes into force on a day to be fixed by order of the Governor in Council.
Order in council
(3) Subsection 4(3) and sections 6, 8 and 15 come into force on a day to be fixed by order of the Governor in Council.
Order in council
(4) Sections 5 and 9 to 11 and subsection 13(1) come into force on a day to be fixed by order of the Governor in Council.
Order in council
(5) Section 7, subsection 13(3) and section 14 come into force on a day to be fixed by order of the Governor in Council, but that day must not be before the day referred to in subsection (4).
-- Bill C-71, Third Reading, Text of the Bill, https://www.parl.ca/DocumentViewer/en/42-1/bill/C-71/third-reading#enH606

Doug_M
05-08-2019, 04:57 AM
I watched it live yesterday and Pratt motioned the final vote be on the next sitting day which is today not Thursday.

Billythreefeathers
05-08-2019, 06:14 AM
useless

Petamocto
05-08-2019, 06:20 AM
Trudeau filling all of those dozens of vacant seats was arguably the most upsetting thing he has ever done.

I don't even care about the independent/liberal argument, it's purely about the cost vs value.

The Senate was still functioning with less people, but all of those vacant seats were saving billions of dollars.

It's not just their salary, it's the amount of staff they have, travel expenses, meal expenses, buildings they're operating, and above all else, pensions.

Each Senator costs tens of millions of dollars over their life span on the taxpayer. The fact that Trudeau doesn't care to be bothered by that showed me more than anything else that he has no grasp of what it means to make your own money and have it taken away in taxes.

Grimlock
05-08-2019, 06:54 AM
Trudeau filling all of those dozens of vacant seats was arguably the most upsetting thing he has ever done.

I don't even care about the independent/liberal argument, it's purely about the cost vs value.

The Senate was still functioning with less people, but all of those vacant seats were saving billions of dollars.

It's not just their salary, it's the amount of staff they have, travel expenses, meal expenses, buildings they're operating, and above all else, pensions.

Each Senator costs tens of millions of dollars over their life span on the taxpayer. The fact that Trudeau doesn't care to be bothered by that showed me more than anything else that he has no grasp of what it means to make your own money and have it taken away in taxes.

But it's not his money. And any conservative government is basically blocked for at least a decade.


I watched it live yesterday and Pratt motioned the final vote be on the next sitting day which is today not Thursday.

It is indeed on the order paper for today. Bastards.

chuckbuster
05-08-2019, 07:46 AM
Their eagerness of Liberals to screw us over never ceases to amaze me.

Sinbad
05-08-2019, 07:50 AM
OK, Liberals are lying POS. We knew that at the beginning of 2015 and they've shown their hand.No surprise, gun bans they said wouldn't happen, forcing merchants to keep records to turn over to their RCMP when they close shop(registration) said it wouldn't happen

We also knew they would never listen to our numerous petitions and letters. So let's just hope the conservatives get enough of a vote to change all the damage the liberals have done.

I'm hoping saner heads prevail in the Senate but I also think all this unelected UN, one world order BS has very deep pockets and major influence with these greedy politicians..

GTW
05-08-2019, 08:00 AM
The greatest disservice Harper did to this country was to not fill the senate with Conservative candidates, thereby allowing the opportunity for Selfie Sock Puppet to fill the seats with Liberals. Harper should have abolished the Senate or filled it. My two cents ...

blacksmithden
05-08-2019, 08:21 AM
The greatest disservice Harper did to this country was to not fill the senate with Conservative candidates, thereby allowing the opportunity for Selfie Sock Puppet to fill the seats with Liberals. Harper should have abolished the Senate or filled it. My two cents ...

About 2 weeks ago, I was flipping through old YouTube videos and came across an old clip from the 1970s, of I believe her name was Carol Channing ? She had this sock puppet she called Lambchop. I instantly thought of Trudeau. How bad a PM are you that people will remember you when they see socks and puppets ?

awndray
05-08-2019, 08:24 AM
"It is not wise to support a bill simply because it embodies noble sentiments. We must be convinced that the legislation will actually achieve what it sets out to do." --Senator Don Plett, in relation to Bill C262 though it applies to Bill C71 and all others

Waterloomike
05-08-2019, 08:26 AM
It doesn't matter, but Shari Lewis was Lambchop's "owner".


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzaWVzK5WQo

If you could get lambchop to explain to the antis why guns are not evil, they would likely buy in.

RobertMcC
05-08-2019, 08:39 AM
For joe blow that don't read politicians. So with them not voting the amendments. The idea of a handgun ban is off the table for now?

Grimlock
05-08-2019, 08:42 AM
For joe blow that don't read politicians. So with them not voting the amendments. The idea of a handgun ban is off the table for now?

Not directly under this bill, but 12(9) makes it easier to do with just an OIC.

blacksmithden
05-08-2019, 08:43 AM
It doesn't matter, but Shari Lewis was Lambchop's "owner".


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzaWVzK5WQo

If you could get lambchop to explain to the antis why guns are not evil, they would likely buy in.

Yep. That's the one. Trudeau has ruined sock puppets for me for all eternity.

RobertMcC
05-08-2019, 08:55 AM
Not directly under this bill, but 12(9) makes it easier to do with just an OIC.

Like C71 bill from the start is what going forward. Not the change to add a handgun ban and such?

Doug_M
05-08-2019, 09:05 AM
It doesn't matter, but Shari Lewis was Lambchop's "owner".

And as a young boy I thought Lewis was hot even though I didn't really know what "hot" was.

Doug_M
05-08-2019, 09:07 AM
Like C71 bill from the start is what going forward. Not the change to add a handgun ban and such?

There was no change to add a handgun ban. The changes at committee were all positive. However a handgun ban can be added at third reading this afternoon anyway. Though I do not expect that to happen (or at least be voted down). The government wants to keep that in their pocket for the 2019 election campaign and so the "independent" senators have been told by Blair and Goodale not to pursue it.

Gunexpert007
05-08-2019, 09:21 AM
The greatest disservice Harper did to this country was to not fill the senate with Conservative candidates, thereby allowing the opportunity for Selfie Sock Puppet to fill the seats with Liberals. Harper should have abolished the Senate or filled it. My two cents ...

Harper wanted to get rid of , or reform , the Senate ; but was unable to do so . At that point , Harper should have appointed Conservative Senators as a large number of Senate seats were vacant . Instead , Harper got into a little tizzy mode , refused to appoint new Senators leaving the Liberals to appoint new Senators when Trudeau came to power . Now Canadians are the paying the price for Harper's little hissy fit . :smash:

Doug_M
05-08-2019, 09:27 AM
Harper on the Senate: "regrets, I've had a few, but then again too few to mention..."


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rDyb_alTkMQ

Petamocto
05-08-2019, 10:51 AM
...Instead , Harper got into a little tizzy mode , refused to appoint new Senators leaving the Liberals to appoint new Senators when Trudeau came to power . Now Canadians are the paying the price for Harper's little hissy fit . :smash:

I don't think it's fair to fault Harper on this one, he actually did the right think (morally) by not filling the seats.

Trudeau choosing to fill them all is of course a sh!tty outcome of that, but it doesn't mean Harper didn't have the moral high ground.

I get that the end results will haunt us for a while (and the taxpayers will be on the hook for billions), but I'd rather be on the correct side of moral decisions.

I understand that at some point you almost have to play dirty if your opponent is playing dirty, but hopefully changes can still be made in the future.

If we can't abolish the Senate, hopefully we can hack and slash the numbers down to something like 37 (one for every million Canadians by region) so it can still perform the same function with less clutter.

Waterloomike
05-08-2019, 11:06 AM
Where is the moral high ground in being stuck for paying $billions and losing every senatorial battle?

Petamocto
05-08-2019, 11:18 AM
Where is the moral high ground in being stuck for paying $billions and losing every senatorial battle?

He still made the right decision, and the right people know that.

If I didn't cheat on a test and got 90%, and someone else cheated and got 100% and got a prize for it, I (and likely others) would know where the two parties' morals are.

As I said, I agree that it led to a bad outcome, but so does not torturing people, but it's still better not to torture.

Waterloomike
05-08-2019, 11:44 AM
That doesn't tell us where the moral high ground is on pissing away billions of dollars and leaving the senate ripe for a party that is really just elected organized crime.

Likeaboss
05-08-2019, 02:09 PM
He still made the right decision, and the right people know that.

If I didn't cheat on a test and got 90%, and someone else cheated and got 100% and got a prize for it, I (and likely others) would know where the two parties' morals are.

As I said, I agree that it led to a bad outcome, but so does not torturing people, but it's still better not to torture.This is a ridiculous statement, or maybe just a poor analogy.

Filling seats is playing by the rules. Abolishing the Senate is changing the rules. Until you can accomplish the latter, you do the former.

Throwing the game by refusing to play because you don't like the rules, is stupid and amorally narcissistic. Harper wears this one.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

Magi
05-08-2019, 02:19 PM
Harper may have have been up to his ears in good intentions but the path to hell is paved with good intentions so this one is on him. He wasn't perfect by a country mile but compared to most of what came before and everything that came after, he was and is a great one!

Turtlehead
05-08-2019, 04:45 PM
fck harper. and fck trudeau.

RangeBob
05-08-2019, 10:42 PM
If Harper had filled the 22 senate seats he'd left vacant,
right now we'd have 52 liberal senators, and 52 conservative senators. (here (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_current_senators_of_Canada))

RobertMcC
05-09-2019, 03:09 AM
I found out, no matter who we have, what party we have. In the end all goes to shit, some faster than others.

Doug_M
05-09-2019, 05:02 AM
I found out, no matter who we have, what party we have. In the end all goes to shit, some faster than others.

Well it is certainly true that politicians are like diapers...

Waterloomike
05-09-2019, 07:04 AM
Well it is certainly true that politicians are like diapers...

Send them to the Phillipines.

Doug_M
05-09-2019, 07:06 AM
^lol

RobertMcC
05-09-2019, 07:14 AM
Look at this innocent 22LR. This was from a drug bust couple towns over. And they say my AR15, and 9mm are dangerous.

Oh yeah and they were 2 females.

Gunexpert007
05-13-2019, 02:36 PM
Any further word on C-71 ; did it pass final reading yet.....if so , any word on when it will actually become law ?

RangeBob
05-13-2019, 03:26 PM
Any further word on C-71 ; did it pass final reading yet.....if so , any word on when it will actually become law ?

Senate will meet starting at 6pm Ottawa time today, and discuss three bills including C-71. I have no idea how long they will be there. It's possible they won't be finished 3rd reading debate tonight, or they might end up voting. I have no idea.

Billythreefeathers
05-13-2019, 04:09 PM
bad laws do not deserve to be followed

Waterloomike
05-13-2019, 04:14 PM
bad laws do not deserve to be followed

Neither do bad politicians or bad governments, but we dare not do that.

Billythreefeathers
05-13-2019, 04:24 PM
Neither do bad politicians or bad governments, but we dare not do that.

well if he thinks Im phoning any one to ask to be allowed to sell my stuff,,,

I'm not a child and I don't need his permission

Gunrunner
05-13-2019, 04:32 PM
May 7 2019
Ottawa, Ontario

A Liberal government gun bill that has drawn resistance from some gun owners since Public Safety Minister Ralph Goodale tabled it in the House of Commons more than a year ago is set to pass its final vote in Parliament this week.

The Senate majority of Independent senators, and a small group of independent Liberal senators still remaining in the Upper Chamber on Thursday voted to reject a version of Bill C-71 that had been stripped of its most significant clauses by Conservative senators in the Senate’s national security and defence committee.

The vote essentially cancelled the Conservative amendments and returned the legislation to its original form as passed by the Commons, with a final vote in the Senate on Thursday.

The Conservatives, a slim minority on the panel, had overcome the majority of Independents in the committee as nonaffiliated Senator David Richards sided with the Conservatives when they dismantled the bill in committee and Independent Senator Diane Griffin abstained on key votes that wiped out some of the most important clauses.

“By leaders’ agreement, we should have third reading by the end of this week,” said the leader of the government in the Senate, Senator Peter Harder, who is styled as a nonaffiliated senator under Senate reforms Prime Minister Justin Trudeau initiated after taking office in 2015.

The leader of the Independent Senators Group, who is styled as Facilitator of the Independents (now the overwhelming majority in the 105-seat Senate), confirmed a final vote could take place as early as Thursday.

Debate on the report began in the early evening.

“Everybody understands the different pathways that can be taken,” said Independent Facilitator Yuen Pau Woo. “We’re debating the report now, so there’s supposed to be a report on the report, possibly today, let’s see how it goes.”

“That was part of the arrangement. We either vote for the report or we vote against it. If we vote either way, we go into third reading and then the plan is to have the third reading vote on Thursday.”

The amended report from the committee was rejected in a 51-32 vote with three abstentions.

Conservative Senate whip Don Plett had earlier said there was no guarantee Bill C-71 would reach its final vote this week and made a list-minute appeal to the Independent senators to accept the version reported by the committee and sent the bill back to the Commons for the government to either reject or accept some of the Conservative amendments.

Goodale made his final appearance to defend the bill in the Senate daily question period on Tuesday, another change in Senate routines under the Trudeau government.

A shot from Plett during the question period — when he alluded to a recent news report that the government had vetted names of potential judicial appointments through a Liberal party database of supporters — drew a sharp response from Goodale.

“There are senators in this chamber who seem a bit squeamish about making significant changes to your legislation,” said Plett, a firebrand senator from Manitoba who is the lead Conservative strategist for bills going through Senate committee passage.

“I’m not sure if that’s because they were appointed from the Liberal list or they just don’t think you’re up to the job of defending your own legislation,” Plett said across the chamber aisle to Goodale, placed in a seat beside Harder.

“So to be clear, if this chamber chooses to respect the democratic process and adopt the committee’s report, your government has no problems with that, and you are prepared to consider these amendments in the other place and make any changes you feel necessary?” said Plett, a longtime president of the Conservative Party of Canada national council appointed to the Senate by former Conservative prime minister Stephen Harper.

“I think it’s always wise for the democratic process to take its normal course,” Goodale responded. “In both the House of Commons and in the Senate, people have the full and free right to debate within the rules of Parliamentary procedure and present their ideas.”

“Those ideas come to a vote at the end of the day and over the course of 153 years that process has served Canada rather well,” Goodale said.

“I think it’s also advisable for debate to remain civil and dignified and for the highest of decorum to be maintained in both houses.”

The new gun law, which still must pass the final Senate vote and receive Royal Assent before taking effect, proposes lifetime background checks for gun licence applicants and also for those renewing licences.

The bill primarily covers nonrestricted gun sales and sales records, but it also includes clauses dealing with restricted handguns and semi-automatic rifles that can be only used for shooting sports.

Gun owners were furious over the reinstatement of permits for each time a gun owner transports a restricted firearm to a gunsmith, gun show or border point.

Permits will not be required to transport restricted firearms to shooting ranges.

The bill also proposes to reverse a decision by the former Harper government to ease restrictions on certain imported semi-automatic rifles.

Before the 2015 federal election, the Harper government amended the Criminal Code to give cabinet the power to overrule an RCMP decision to reclassify the rifles as either restricted or prohibited, rather than nonrestricted or restricted, depending on the rifle make.

Gun owners and the Conservative party also oppose the reinstatement of mandatory records of gun sales, and a compulsory system for keeping track of whether gun licences are valid before sales go through.

hxxps://ipolitics.ca/2019/05/07/liberal-gun-bill-finally-set-to-clear-parliament/

C71 will pass before the election.

The 1/2 century old Liberal disarmament agenda implementation is like a ratchet and only goes 1-way.
Sure the LPC might get booted out in October but they'll be back and continue where they left off.

Historically the Liberals have not been alone in regards to pushing an anti-gun legislative agenda.

Recall that approx 1/3 of the Firearms Act was drafted and passed by Conservative governments.

Gunrunner
05-13-2019, 04:43 PM
Neither do bad politicians or bad governments, but we dare not do that.

Ironically the most resistance is coming from the historical spawning bed of Canadian anti-gun policy Quebec where the grass roots gun owner opposition the the provincial gun registry has been impressive.

Apparently NZ gun owners have followed the "British subject" paradigm and are lining up at police stations to hand in their guns.

Question: How well will we do when the post c71 proclamation shoe drops? Will we do any better?

Gunrunner
05-13-2019, 05:05 PM
Originally Posted by RobertMcC
I found out, no matter who we have, what party we have. In the end all goes to shit, some faster than others.

Because the politicians are following what their professional pollsters and policy analysts tell them is "the majority opinion" which is for more gun control.
In fact "majority rules" is the basic principle of democracy.

Other previously persecuted minority groups (gays, Indians) have succeeded in having their rights respected only after winning the hearts and minds of most Canadians.
To date Canadian gun owners have failed to do that in any meaningful way so they are always left holding the "sh!tty end of the stick".

RangeBob
05-13-2019, 06:10 PM
"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse (generous gifts) from the public treasury. From that moment on the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy (which is) always followed by a dictatorship."
-- Sir Alexander Fraser Tytler

"Democracy often works beautifully at first. But once a state extends the franchise to every warm body, be he producer or parasite, that day marks the beginning of the end of the state. For when the plebs discover that they can vote themselves bread and circuses without limit and that the productive members of the body politic cannot stop them, they will do so, until the state bleeds to death, or in its weakened condition the state succumbs to an invader--the barbarians enter Rome."
-- Robert A. Heinlein, To Sail Beyond the Sunset (1987) pg 223

Lucius Quinctius Cincinnatus, 2027 Conservative candidate for the riding of Toronto Centre.

Petamocto
05-13-2019, 06:17 PM
RangeBob,

They were far from the first. Plato’s Republic covered the cyclical nature of governments thousands of years ago.

Simplified here, but read the whole book for sure:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plato%27s_five_regimes

Gunrunner
05-13-2019, 07:25 PM
"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse (generous gifts) from the public treasury. From that moment on the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy (which is) always followed by a dictatorship."
-- Sir Alexander Fraser Tytler

"Democracy often works beautifully at first. But once a state extends the franchise to every warm body, be he producer or parasite, that day marks the beginning of the end of the state. For when the plebs discover that they can vote themselves bread and circuses without limit and that the productive members of the body politic cannot stop them, they will do so, until the state bleeds to death, or in its weakened condition the state succumbs to an invader--the barbarians enter Rome."
-- Robert A. Heinlein, To Sail Beyond the Sunset (1987) pg 223

Lucius Quinctius Cincinnatus, 2027 Conservative candidate for the riding of Toronto Centre.

Alternatives?

Swingerguy
05-13-2019, 07:32 PM
Alternatives?

Venezuela?

Gunrunner
05-14-2019, 02:48 AM
The NZ PM called it right.
Like the British post Dunblane massacre gun bans in the late 1990s Kiwi gun owners had absolutely no backbone when it came to standing up and fighting bad gun law and are turning in their guns en masse.

Apparently turdo is taking encouragement in the presumption that one British subject (serf sheep) is very much like another to pass and implement bad law here.
I doubt if we'll even be offered compensation.

It'll be grab and off to the band saws and smelter with no buy back.
I expect the Liberals will move fast to implement sweeping gun bans after c71 passes.

They are desperate and are betting on a gun control magic carpet carrying them out of the abyss back into power in the October election.

Magi
05-14-2019, 08:22 AM
Alternatives?

Democracy is not the problem, the problem is the constitution governing said democracy. We the peons have become so engrossed in Rights that we've forgotten the State needs to be tightly regulated. For example, current western democracies are "for all intents and purposes" free to spend as they see fit. Governments should be prohibited from incurring any debt except in times or war and national emergency, not by law but by the constitution. They should be prohibited from taxing a dollar multiple times, tax the dollar when it's spent or when it's earned but not both, again set in the constitution governing the government. Constitutional changes should require 2/3 majority vote and 2/3 voter turn out.

Prohibit debt and limit taxation, the free stuff will grind to halt in short order... We may even get better government in the process but may require a really enlightened Constitution.

shortandlong
05-14-2019, 08:26 AM
Democracy is not the problem, the problem is the constitution governing said democracy. We the peons have become so engrossed in Rights that we've forgotten the State needs to be tightly regulated. For example, current western democracies are "for all intents and purposes" free to spend as they see fit. Governments should be prohibited from incurring any debt except in times or war and national emergency, not by law but by the constitution. They should be prohibited from taxing a dollar multiple times, tax the dollar when it's spent or when it's earned but not both, again set in the constitution governing the government. Constitutional changes should require 2/3 majority vote and 2/3 voter turn out.

Prohibit debt and limit taxation, the free stuff will grind to halt in short order... We may even get better government in the process but may require a really enlightened Constitution.

I agree totally .

An important omission though is every citizen must be a participant and be educated in those issues , sadly it’s not canada

Magi
05-14-2019, 09:47 AM
An important omission though is every citizen must be a participant and be educated in those issues , sadly it’s not canada

I only mentioned debt and taxes by way of example and completely agree on the importance of participation and education. Indoctrination should be swept from the education system, concentrate on education and leave ideology, beliefs, morals etc. to parents.

Petamocto
05-14-2019, 10:36 AM
Plato covers all of that in the inevitable downfall of democracies.

True freedom leads to eventual anarchy, because everyone can basically do what they want.

There is no obligation for military service, no obligation to learn about governing, and people will vote for more and more handouts because people are selfish, which eventually collapses the system into chaos.

In order to regain control, a tyranny must be established, and the people lose all of their rights. That continues until the tyrant can no longer be trusted, and enough idealists overthrow the tyrant to start a new age of philosopher kings, and the process will inevitably get to democracy and tyranny at some point again.

Magi
05-14-2019, 11:33 AM
...because people are selfish, which eventually collapses the system into chaos.

Yes, I think we've reached the "handout/selfish" phase.

Petamocto
05-14-2019, 12:43 PM
Yes, I think we've reached the "handout/selfish" phase.

There's no stopping it, really, unless a government is bold enough to enact a policy stating "Unless we are in total war, we must plan to run a budget with a 1% surplus every year".

Barring that, it is simply a race to the bottom with ever-more interest charges instead of getting actual value for that money.

Look at Ontario right now; Doug Ford takes over a total sh!t sandwich of a financial situation, and what are the main three things he can cut? Schools, Hospitals, and Infrastructure/roads.

Obviously none of those play well in the media, yet a responsible leader has no choice but to do the right thing, knowing they'll be relentlessly called a horrible person. Think of the children!

Until a government mandates a permanent 1% surplus plan in a way that a future government can't undo, the takers will continue to leech off the system until the givers just say "Screw it, I'm cashing out and living in the woods where I won't pay tax anymore".

TheHydrant
05-15-2019, 02:10 PM
Yep. That's the one. Trudeau has ruined sock puppets for me for all eternity.Trudeau has ruined SOCKS in general

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