Safe storage at home?

[metalninja]

Hi,

Seeking clarity regarding safe storage at home. Can you put your restricted with a trigger lock in a solid transport case with a lock when at home or do you have to have them locked in a safe?

For example: a restricted rifle with trigger lock in a case with lock and a restricted handgun separately in an another locked case with trigger lock is allowed?

Do they have to be stored in a safe?

[Stew]

Storage of Restricted Firearms

6 An individual may store a restricted firearm only if

(a) it is unloaded;

(b) it is

(i) rendered inoperable by means of a secure locking device and stored in a container, receptacle or room that is kept securely locked and that is constructed so that it cannot readily be broken open or into, or

(ii) stored in a vault, safe or room that has been specifically constructed or modified for the secure storage of restricted firearms and that is kept securely locked; and

(c) it is not readily accessible to ammunition, unless the ammunition is stored, together with or separately from the firearm, in

(i) a container or receptacle that is kept securely locked and that is constructed so that it cannot readily be broken open or into, or

(ii) a vault, safe or room that has been specifically constructed or modified for the secure storage of restricted firearms and that is kept securely locked.


no safe required

from:
https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/Regulations/SOR-98-209/page-1.html#h-1019954

[metalninja]

Thanks for the clarity.

[Gunrunner]

In the near future gun storage law could change if the city council passes a NO GUN ZONE bylaw that purportedly will be backed by the feds so that it can’t be overruled by the Province.
I can see a constitutional court battle over this but I’m guessing the fix is already in between SCOC and the Liberals.
SCOC will probably refuse to hear the cases.

[RangeBob]

In the near future gun storage law could change if the city council passes a NO GUN ZONE bylaw

That's one way.
But Bill Blair is also talking about changing the Firearms Act Regulations -- i.e. the contents of Post #2 in this thread.
No specifics, although he mumbled something about keeping restricted in a safe.

[Gunexpert007]

That's one way.
But Bill Blair is also talking about changing the Firearms Act Regulations -- i.e. the contents of Post #2 in this thread.
No specifics, although he mumbled something about keeping restricted in a safe.

Correct ; Billy Blair did float that trial balloon....restricted to be kept in a safe when at your residence . Hard to know what other half baked ideas that Billy will come up with when he gives cities the power to ban handguns ; maybe some kind of central storage , or an outright ban on handgun ownership in some cities . :smash:

[Yogi05]

Storage laws are not, never were about preventing theft, so a container/receptacle is allowed.

[labradort]

I would think it best to wait for any actual law change if someone was considering buying a safe or cabinet now. The future legal requirements could render any purchase made today inadequate, depending on what they expect.

[Justice]

The storage laws not covered on your PAL/RPAL course? There are different rules for restricted and non. There is no requirement or definition of what constitutes a 'safe'. Nor is there a definition of what is considered "Hard to break into".
Storing firearms in a case isn't a good idea. Cases tend to attract moisture.
Go here. Note the operative word 'OR'.
http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/en/firearms/storing-transporting-and-displaying-firearms
"...if the city council passes a NO GUN ZONE bylaw..." Currently, no city council has the jurisdiction to do that. Neither does a Province.

[3MTA3]

I see the RCMP page above shows a picture of what kind of looks like a metal Stack-on "safe", in a way suggesting it is a container- the RCMP seems to be an all- knowing authoritarian body ( they should be abolished like the UN)

Here are the actual regs-
https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/PDF/SOR-98-209.pdf

See Barnes case regarding "Safe"

http://firearmslaw.ca/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/Barnes-Reasons-for-Judgement.pdf

16] Within the context of section 7 itself, it is apparent that Parliament considered a "safe ... that is securely locked" to be a more secure method of storage than a "container or receptacle ... that is kept securely locked and is constructed so that it cannot be readily broken into or open". This is evident from the fact that the guns stored pursuant to section 7(b)(i) must be rendered inoperable by a.-secure locking device whereas the firearms stored in accordance with section 7(b)(ii) have no such requirement. Moreover, containers and receptacles may be constructed of wood or plastic, as opposed to the more durable metal from which a safe is traditionally made.

Even where a gun storage unit is described as a "safe", there may be considerable variations in its characteristics, including size, weight, wall thickness, the location of the hinges, the nature of the locking mechanism and resistance to water or fire: see, for example, exhibits 3A, 3B, 7 A, 7B, 10, 11, 13. Unlike jurisdictions such as California, 5 Parliament has not chosen to designate minimum standards for gun safes or certify certain types of safes as meeting the regulatory requirements."

20] The concerns expressed by Mr. Press about the vulnerability of gun storage units, such as those belonging to Mr. Barnes, to bolts cutters, sledge hammers and other methods of forced entry are understandable. Yet, Mr. Cornblum's observation, that given time and the right degree of skill, all safes are vulnerable to being broken into, is a valid one.

[21] Since a breach ofthe regulation leads to a criminal charge, there must be a discernable standard for licensed individuals to meet in storing automatic firearms: seeR. v. Smillie, supra at ~35. In my view, an interpretation of the word "safe" in its ordinary, dictionary meaning of a metal container with a secure lock is consistent with the objectives of the legislation and the intent of Parliament.
[22] I find that the cabinets in which the defendant's prohibited firearms were stored fall within the definition of a· safe. Both ofthe lockers in which the prohibited firearms were stored were made of steel. Each cabinet was securely locked: one by a key and a padlock; the other by a locking system that uses a key to unbolt rods in the door from the frame of the unit. Indeed, despite their disagreement on other issues, the Crown and the defence expert both accepted.that the units were securely locked. The Crown has not proven beyond a reasonable doubt that there was non-compliance with the regulation. The charges are dismissed

[labradort]

Stew answered the question for the status quo of the law.

Some of the people posting to the question seem to be unaware the laws on storage are supposed to change sometime in the current Trudeau mandate, assuming they stay in power long enough. It was mentioned in the mandate letter to the minister (Blair I think) and discussed elsewhere on these forums. I just think it could be a waste of money to put out hundreds of dollars on the hardware and installation and then to redo it. The details matter and they have not been seen for any future storage laws.

[3MTA3]

You probably won't have anything left to store when libtards are done.

[Swingerguy]

You probably won't have anything left to store when libtards are done.

They will never get my slingshot!!!

[Two For Sure]

When I'm at home at least one of my guns is in use. When I'm not at home they are all stored according to the legal requirements.

[Megglodon]

Hey Guys, I have a question about storage. This is kind of a newbie question, but just want to make sure that what I want to do is legal. Better safe than sorry.
I have 2 safes.
In safe #1, are stored my restricted handguns and the now prohibited AR. No ammo or mags are stored in safe #1.
In safe # 2, are stored: ammo, mags, etc. No firearms are presently stored in safe #2
For storage room purpose, it would be very convenient to move the now prohibited AR from safe #1 to safe #2, where ammo is stored. Of course there is a trigger lock at all time on the AR when in storage, also the AR bolt carrier would be removed from it, rendering the AR unoperable. The AR bolt carrier would be stored in safe #1 where I keep my handguns.
I think this would be legal, but want to make sure about it.
This would keep me from buying a third safe.

[RangeBob]

Megglodon :

The firearms will have to be kept securely stored in accordance with the legal storage requirements for the classification of the specified firearms prior to their prohibition.
-- Gazette OIC, May 1 2020, http://canadagazette.gc.ca/rp-pr/p2/2020/2020-05-01-x3/html/sor-dors96-eng.html

[Megglodon]

Thank you.
But basically my question wasn't specifically about a now prohibited firearm storage.
My question is: Can I store an AR that is rendered unoperable (with trigger lock and without bolt carrier) in the same safe as ammo is stored in ?

[RangeBob]

Can I store an AR that is rendered unoperable (with trigger lock and without bolt carrier) in the same safe as ammo is stored in ?

Yes.
If it's a safe it doesn't need a trigger lock (although it's a time saver when going to the range to have one already attached since it's needed for transport), and it doesn't need the bolt removed. Of course you may trigger lock it and you may remove the bolt.


Storage of Restricted Firearms

6 An individual may store a restricted firearm only if

(a) it is unloaded;

(b) it is

(i) rendered inoperable by means of a secure locking device and stored in a container, receptacle or room that is kept securely locked and that is constructed so that it cannot readily be broken open or into, or

(ii) stored in a vault, safe or room that has been specifically constructed or modified for the secure storage of restricted firearms and that is kept securely locked; and

(c) it is not readily accessible to ammunition, unless the ammunition is stored, together with or separately from the firearm, in

(i) a container or receptacle that is kept securely locked and that is constructed so that it cannot readily be broken open or into, or

(ii) a vault, safe or room that has been specifically constructed or modified for the secure storage of restricted firearms and that is kept securely locked.

-- https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/sor-98-209/FullText.html

[LB303]

Interesting that section 12 makes no mention of an ATT

[SIR VEYOR]

So...
6b(I) and c(I)

I could store a restricted in a locking toolbox, with ammo in the toolbox, provided the restricted has a trigger lock on it?

And a non-res with a trigger lock can be kept anywhere? It doesn’t need to be inside a locked room/closet?

Got asked about bare minimum legal requirements and was wondering how close to the line one can wander...

[spider69]

So...
6b(I) and c(I)

I could store a restricted in a locking toolbox, with ammo in the toolbox, provided the restricted has a trigger lock on it?

And a non-res with a trigger lock can be kept anywhere? It doesn’t need to be inside a locked room/closet?

Got asked about bare minimum legal requirements and was wondering how close to the line one can wander...

Correct.

[RangeBob]

Got asked about bare minimum legal requirements and was wondering how close to the line one can wander...

There are two criminal code sections about safe storage. One is about violating the regulations. The other is about negligence.

[SIR VEYOR]

There are two criminal code sections about safe storage. One is about violating the regulations. The other is about negligence.

And does ammo in a locked box with a trigger locked restricted cross over into negligence? I Vaguely remember the court case about the rifle leaning on a welder with ammo in a nearby drawer, and that was deemed Acceptable with consternation?

[RangeBob]

And does ammo in a locked box with a trigger locked restricted cross over into negligence?

If there's something unusual, then complying with the regulations may be insufficient.

for example, given


Storage of Non-Restricted Firearms

5 (1) An individual may store a non-restricted firearm only if

(a) it is unloaded;

(b) it is

(i) rendered inoperable by means of a secure locking device,

(ii) rendered inoperable by the removal of the bolt or bolt-carrier, or

(iii) stored in a container, receptacle or room that is kept securely locked and that is constructed so that it cannot readily be broken open or into; and

(c) it is not readily accessible to ammunition, unless the ammunition is stored, together with or separately from the firearm, in a container or receptacle that is kept securely locked and that is constructed so that it cannot readily be broken open or into.

(2) Paragraph (1)(b) does not apply to any individual who stores a non-restricted firearm temporarily if the individual reasonably requires it for the control of predators or other animals in a place where it may be discharged in accordance with all applicable Acts of Parliament and of the legislature of a province, regulations made under such Acts, and municipal by-laws.

(3) Paragraphs (1)(b) and (c) do not apply to an individual who stores a non-restricted firearm in a location that is in a remote wilderness area that is not subject to any visible or otherwise reasonably ascertainable use incompatible with hunting.

If you were to "store" your rifles, by putting trigger locks on them,
and then suspending them on small pieces of string on the front yard under your 20'x8' billboard that says "FREE GUNS",
that would be negligence.

There are probably more realistic examples of negligence.



I Vaguely remember the court case about the rifle leaning on a welder with ammo in a nearby drawer, and that was deemed Acceptable with consternation?

that might be R. v Rusk 2000
http://canlii.ca/t/1l7qg
although that was two rifles leaning on a welder with ammo in a nearby drawer.


going the other way, we have R. v. Libon (2013).

"The RCMP knows that gun owners are low hanging fruit. They have these easy charges that they can lay under these storage regulations, for which there is no defense. And here's how bizarre it gets. I came across a case from B.C. a while back and if I didn't read this I'd think somebody had made it up. A fellow in B.C. was convicted of unsafe storage because he had ammunition too close to the firearm. But here's the thing. The firearm was a .22, the ammunition was shotgun shells. The judge upheld the conviction because there was no evidence that the gun couldn't be modified to accommodate shotgun shells."
-- Lawyer Rick Hemmingson

[spider69]

If there's something unusual, then complying with the regulations may be insufficient.

for example, given


Storage of Non-Restricted Firearms

5 (1) An individual may store a non-restricted firearm only if

(a) it is unloaded;

(b) it is

(i) rendered inoperable by means of a secure locking device,

(ii) rendered inoperable by the removal of the bolt or bolt-carrier, or

(iii) stored in a container, receptacle or room that is kept securely locked and that is constructed so that it cannot readily be broken open or into; and

(c) it is not readily accessible to ammunition, unless the ammunition is stored, together with or separately from the firearm, in a container or receptacle that is kept securely locked and that is constructed so that it cannot readily be broken open or into.

(2) Paragraph (1)(b) does not apply to any individual who stores a non-restricted firearm temporarily if the individual reasonably requires it for the control of predators or other animals in a place where it may be discharged in accordance with all applicable Acts of Parliament and of the legislature of a province, regulations made under such Acts, and municipal by-laws.

(3) Paragraphs (1)(b) and (c) do not apply to an individual who stores a non-restricted firearm in a location that is in a remote wilderness area that is not subject to any visible or otherwise reasonably ascertainable use incompatible with hunting.

If you were to "store" your rifles, by putting trigger locks on them,
and then suspending them on small pieces of string on the front yard under your 20'x8' billboard that says "FREE GUNS",
that would be negligence.

There are probably more realistic examples of negligence.




that might be R. v Rusk 2000
http://canlii.ca/t/1l7qg
although that was two rifles leaning on a welder with ammo in a nearby drawer.


going the other way, we have R. v. Libon (2013).

"The RCMP knows that gun owners are low hanging fruit. They have these easy charges that they can lay under these storage regulations, for which there is no defense. And here's how bizarre it gets. I came across a case from B.C. a while back and if I didn't read this I'd think somebody had made it up. A fellow in B.C. was convicted of unsafe storage because he had ammunition too close to the firearm. But here's the thing. The firearm was a .22, the ammunition was shotgun shells. The judge upheld the conviction because there was no evidence that the gun couldn't be modified to accommodate shotgun shells."
-- Lawyer Rick Hemmingson

I sure hope that one is going to The Court of Appeal. That Judge was a moron.

[Justice]

The question is, was this not covered on your PAL course?
"...cross over into negligence?..." Negligence is what the cops will say when they're blaming you for becoming the victim of a crime and have your property stolen. A locking toolbox would result in the whole thing being stolen. Said tool box bolted to the floor is better.
One needs to remember that logic does not apply. None of these laws/regulations are meant to aid you in any way.

[blacksmithden]

The question is, was this not covered on your PAL course?
"...cross over into negligence?..." Negligence is what the cops will say when they're blaming you for becoming the victim of a crime and have your property stolen. A locking toolbox would result in the whole thing being stolen. Said tool box bolted to the floor is better.
One needs to remember that logic does not apply. None of these laws/regulations are meant to aid you in any way.

My pal course was so long ago I cant remember where I even did it. Do YOU remember everything you were ever taught ? This site is to help people out, not chastise them.

[Gunrunner]

You might forget the technical stuff like how many mm a 18.5 inch barrel is but you don't forget the basics like not leaving loaded firearms unattended where curious kids are playing or muzzle control (not pointing guns at people).

[Gunrunner]

13).

"The RCMP knows that gun owners are low hanging fruit. They have these easy charges that they can lay under these storage regulations, for which there is no defense. And here's how bizarre it gets. I came across a case from B.C. a while back and if I didn't read this I'd think somebody had made it up. A fellow in B.C. was convicted of unsafe storage because he had ammunition too close to the firearm. But here's the thing. The firearm was a .22, the ammunition was shotgun shells. The judge upheld the conviction because there was no evidence that the gun couldn't be modified to accommodate shotgun shells."
-- Lawyer Rick Hemmingson

... anti-gun activist cops, crown attorneys and judges are par for the course up here in Canada and getting more common every day ... if you are unfortunate enough to run into all 3 you are f'ked regardless of the circumstances because they have already made up their minds that you have committed anti-social behavior solely by owning a gun or even wanting to own a gun.

[barkerlakebob]

My pal course was so long ago I cant remember where I even did it. Do YOU remember everything you were ever taught ? This site is to help people out, not chastise them.

That is nice to know.............thanks !!

[SwissArmyMan]

Pop quiz...
Let's say you have a safe in a locked room. Can you store a loaded magazine besides a restricted firearm??

Asking for a friend!!

[blacksmithden]

Pop quiz...
Let's say you have a safe in a locked room. Can you store a loaded magazine besides a restricted firearm??

Asking for a friend!!

100% fine. The safe doesn't even have to be in a locked room.

[SwissArmyMan]

100% fine. The safe doesn't even have to be in a locked room.

Thanks for response.
The safe is in a gun room. Ammo is just in the locked room.

[blacksmithden]

Thanks for response.
The safe is in a gun room. Ammo is just in the locked room.

Its worded in such a way that you can story your ammo with your guns in your safe, just as long as the guns aren't actually loaded. A loaded magazine is not a gun, and a gun is not loaded if the magazine isn't actually in it. I vaguely remember a case (might have been in the US, so don't quote me on this) where someone had a magazine partly inserted in the mag well and the judge ruled that it still wasn't loaded. I wouldn't want to pay the legal fees to argue that one out in court though.

On a side note, I know someone who got off an impaired charge (he had no intention of driving) because the door of the car wasn't closed. He knew he couldn't drive but REALLY didn't want to leave it where he had parked. He was digging around in the center console for our (we both worked in the same garage) tow truck drivers card. He was going to call him to tow the car for him. Apparently an overzealous bouncer decided that he was going to keep him from driving and grabbed his belt from behind (his feet were still on the ground) and dragged him out of the car. My co-worker was a big guy, and ex-airborne. He laid the bouncer out on the ground. The cops showed up, and charged him with "operating" a motor vehicle while impaired. Nobody disputed that he wasn't actually seated in the car and the door was open. The judge threw it out, saying "well, you can't drive a car with the doors open". You never know how these things are going to go.