PAL renewal question

[ultimaix]

Over the years, I have renewed my RPAL four times and I have never seen this.
This last time took 6 months and...

When it finally arrived it was glued to a form that stated:
Please detach the licence conditions printed below and keep them with your licence at all times.
If requested by a peace officer or other authority, you must be able to provide both your licence and the licence conditions.

At the bottom of the form there is 'cut along the dotted line'
And the 'Conditions - Possession and Acquisition' section is below.
This section is blank with only my name, DOB, and licence number on it.
There is a 'Conditions' section on the back of my plastic PAL card, it is also blank.

Am I really required to carry this piece of paper with my licence?
What is the penalty if I am caught without it?
What if I am out in the rain hunting?
Am I allowed to laminate it?
Why must I carry it? There is no additional information on this form that is not on my plastic PAL card.

I am hoping someone can shed some light on this for me?
Are there any firearm instructors around that can help?

Thanks in advance !

p.s.
I have tried uploading a picture of this form, but I am not having any success on here.
Can I email someone the picture so they can post it on here for me?
Thanks !

[Uncle Leo]

The other forum has beat this topic to death.
Yes you are required to carry it with you.
There is no known case of anybody being caught without it that anybody can reference so punishment is unknown.

[stevebc]

This question has been asked for years, and while I'm not a lawyer, the consensus seems to be to ignore it.

Perhaps someone has been asked to produce it, "in the field", but not to my knowledge.

I haven't ever been asked for it. But then, I've never been asked to produce my PAL "in the field" either.

Mine is inside my gun safe. I wouldn't worry about it.

ps- yes, you can laminate it. You can also make copies of your registration certificates, and laminate those too to carry with your restricted guns. I've done this, while the originals stay in the safe.

pps- I use Postimage for my picture posting needs. Works a charm.

[blacksmithden]

The other forum has beat this topic to death.
Yes you are required to carry it with you.
There is no known case of anybody being caught without it that anybody can reference so punishment is unknown.

Exactly. That piece of paper thingy has been given out with pal cards for at least 20 years. By letter of the law, it's supposed to be treated like it's an extra piece of the pal card and you license isn't valid without it. That said, I don't know of a single person who carries it. Hell, I usually lose it within a day of getting my renewal. I have never heard of anyone of authority asking to see someone's pal, much less looking for that dumb piece of paper. The only place/time I've ever been asked for my pal is when I'm buying a gun, or, sometimes clubs have asked for my number (never asked to see my pal) to put in my membership file. I've never been asked for that piece of paper. To sum it up, don't take them saying you're required to have that piece of paper on you too seriously. Nobody else does.

Edit: I have heard of a game warden asking to see someone's pal....and I guarantee you with my life he didn't have that piece of paper on him. Zero issues.

[ultimaix]

Thanks for the quick replies !

So...
Just another law/regulation to always have us in a position of 'law breaking'...
And never law abiding and entitled to own.

Sorry,
I never noticed this topic in the other forum.
I am new here and this place is really difficult to navigate...
Thanks again for the replies !

[blacksmithden]

Thanks for the quick replies !

So...
Just another law/regulation to always have us in a position of 'law breaking'...
And never law abiding and entitled to own.

Sorry,
I never saw this in the other forum.
I am new here and this place is difficult to navigate...
Thanks again for the replies !

Yeah, that about sums it up. If pals were electronic, that paper would be a pop up nag message. Never be afraid to ask questions bud. We're all here to help each other out. Lord knows everybody else seems to be out to get us. LOL.

[ultimaix]

Yeah, that about sums it up. If pals were electronic, that paper would be a pop up nag message. Never be afraid to ask questions bud. We're all here to help each other out. Lord knows everybody else seems to be out to get us. LOL.


Like I said, it took 6 months to get my licence...
And I was getting worried about my renewal not arriving in time.
What happens after the 6 month grace period?
Am I in a 'law breaking' situation again?
I didn't cause this violation.
Not knowing what to do, I stored my stuff at buddy's house until my renewal arrived...

[blacksmithden]

Like I said, it took 6 months to get my licence...
And I was getting worried about my renewal not arriving in time.
What happens after the 6 month grace period?
Am I in a 'law breaking' situation again?
I didn't cause this violation.
Not knowing what to do, I stored my stuff at buddy's house until my renewal arrived...

If it's a month before your expiry date, call up the CFC and in a diplomatic and respectful way, ask them what the f--- is up. Why haven't I gotten my new card yet. It's my understanding that if your pal expires, you have a 6 month grace period where you're not supposed to leave your house with your firearms, and it's a time buffer to get it sorted out between you and the firearms center and cfo. After the 6 month grace period, you COULD be charged with illegal possession. I don't know anyone who's just let their pal expire. WAY back, my dad just let his POL expire, and it was a big fat nothing burger for a few decades after. That was until his insane x wife decided to cause some crap and called the police. They took his guns but didn't charge him. There was no violence involved at all, and the cops knew she was a nutjob within 2 minutes of arriving and talking to her. I was scheduled to come back to Ontario and visit him anyway. I went down to the OPP station with him and verified that they were still there. I showed them my PAL, and told them that he was giving me the guns. I'll be back in an hour with some cases. Not technically required for transport as the were all non restricted, but it became quickly obvious that the cop I was talking to wasn't well versed on the firearms act. Best to just go with the myths they hear while learning law at the donut shop. Anyway, I went by Canadian tire and bought some locks and hard cases....went to the OPP station, grabbed the guns, and mailed them to myself in Edmonton. Unless you've done something to get the cops bent at you, and as long as you're calm, respectful, and willing to go along with what they want to do, most cops aren't out there to chop anybody's fingers off. At least that's been my experience. If you're regularly out with your guns and the firearms center is dragging their heals, start harassing them on a regular basis to get it done or tell you why it's not being done. If all you have is non restricted stuff and let your pal expire, they don't have any way of knowing that you have guns in the house, so unless you or somebody else gives them a reason, they're not going to come looking...ever.

[RELOAD]

If your renewal is in the system and you do not have the licence in your hand at the end of the 6 months you are okay. The last time I went thru this the cfo told me if the card does not show up to call them and they said until I get it please do not take the guns out anywhere. The card showed up the day before.

[ultimaix]

If your renewal is in the system and you do not have the licence in your hand at the end of the 6 months you are okay. The last time I went thru this the cfo told me if the card does not show up to call them and they said until I get it please do not take the guns out anywhere. The card showed up the day before.

You may be correct, but that is not what I see written about the grace period.
Actually what I read is the grace period is for 'US', incase we forget to renew in time.
Not for the RCMP to use to drag out the renewal times.
And I read it as 'I' am solely held responsible for having firearms 6 months after my PAL expires.
Unless you know something different than I can find?
I have tried looking...

[ultimaix]

If it's a month before your expiry date, call up the CFC and in a diplomatic and respectful way, ask them what the f--- is up. Why haven't I gotten my new card yet. It's my understanding that if your pal expires, you have a 6 month grace period where you're not supposed to leave your house with your firearms, and it's a time buffer to get it sorted out between you and the firearms center and cfo. After the 6 month grace period, you COULD be charged with illegal possession. I don't know anyone who's just let their pal expire. WAY back, my dad just let his POL expire, and it was a big fat nothing burger for a few decades after. That was until his insane x wife decided to cause some crap and called the police. They took his guns but didn't charge him. There was no violence involved at all, and the cops knew she was a nutjob within 2 minutes of arriving and talking to her. I was scheduled to come back to Ontario and visit him anyway. I went down to the OPP station with him and verified that they were still there. I showed them my PAL, and told them that he was giving me the guns. I'll be back in an hour with some cases. Not technically required for transport as the were all non restricted, but it became quickly obvious that the cop I was talking to wasn't well versed on the firearms act. Best to just go with the myths they hear while learning law at the donut shop. Anyway, I went by Canadian tire and bought some locks and hard cases....went to the OPP station, grabbed the guns, and mailed them to myself in Edmonton. Unless you've done something to get the cops bent at you, and as long as you're calm, respectful, and willing to go along with what they want to do, most cops aren't out there to chop anybody's fingers off. At least that's been my experience. If you're regularly out with your guns and the firearms center is dragging their heals, start harassing them on a regular basis to get it done or tell you why it's not being done. If all you have is non restricted stuff and let your pal expire, they don't have any way of knowing that you have guns in the house, so unless you or somebody else gives them a reason, they're not going to come looking...ever.

I can just see myself, after work on Friday...
Speeding to the hunting area to meet with the other guys.
And... I get pulled over... on a Friday night...

Have you been drinking, smoking?
Any booze, drugs or weapons in the vehicle?

Oh, you have a firearm in the trunk and an expired firearm licence...
No sir, I have never heard of a 'six month grace period' after your licence has expired.
Is your drivers licence still valid after it expires?

Step out of the vehicle please...
LOL

[RELOAD]

You may be correct, but that is not what I see written about the grace period.
Actually what I read is the grace period is for 'US', incase we forget to renew in time.
Not for the RCMP to use to drag out the renewal times.
And I read it as 'I' am solely held responsible for having firearms 6 months after my PAL expires.
Unless you know something different than I can find?
I have tried looking...

After you have sent in the renewal it is out of your hands. How are you than held responsible.

[blacksmithden]

I can just see myself, after work on Friday...
Speeding to the hunting area to meet with the other guys.
And... I get pulled over... on a Friday night...

Have you been drinking, smoking?
Any booze, drugs or weapons in the vehicle?

Oh, you have a firearm in the trunk and an expired firearm licence...
No sir, I have never heard of a 'six month grace period' after your licence has expired.
Is your drivers licence still valid after it expires?

Step out of the vehicle please...
LOL

These days, the cops can't keep people in jail who stabbed someone while high on meth. They aren't going to throw you in the clink if your piece of plastic has last month's date on it. Years ago, someone made up a sheet with all the transportation laws on it, and around the outside border was a phone number the cops could call to get information if they didn't know the firearms act. I keep a copy of that in all of my vehicles just in case I get pulled over and the cop won't believe that I know the firearms act better than they do. That said, I've never had to pull one out.

[ultimaix]

There is what makes sense...
And then there is the law...

The burden in court would be up to me to prove that the law does not apply to me.
That's really not a good position to be in...
(it is not my fault I possess a firearm with a licence, its the RCMP's fault for not renewing on time)

Because of liability reasons the cop (at minimum) isn't going to let you leave with the firearm.
He may arrest you and tow your car if he does not believe you.
You get to spend money in court...
Why?
Because you cannot prove what you say to a cop at that moment on the side of the road.

You have good advice about keeping copies of everything.
But most of us do not do that.
LOL

[spider69]

With an RPAL,conditions are printed on it,therefore,you must carry it with you. With a PAL,there's only a blank piece of paper. Why would it be required that we carry a blank? Toss it.....common sense.

[ultimaix]

With an RPAL,conditions are printed on it,therefore,you must carry it with you. With a PAL,there's only a blank piece of paper. Why would it be required that we carry a blank? Toss it.....common sense.

I agree !
And on the back of the plastic RPAL or PAL there is a 'Conditions' section.
So why would we need to carry both ?

The issue I have is:
- this this a law?
- what is the penalty for not carrying this piece of paper?
- Can we laminate it?

Or are these just words on a piece of paper with no regulation or law backing it?
It states we need to be licenced, but I cannot find what we are required to produce to prove it.

What conditions do you have on your RPAL ?
I don't have any conditions on my RPAL.

[ESnel]

I don't have any conditions on my RPAL.

Yes you do, the attached conditions pertain to the ATT. It states what ATT conditions are automaticly covered and which conditions you nedd to apply for an ATT to transport a restricted firearm.

[ultimaix]

Yes you do, the attached conditions pertain to the ATT. It states what ATT conditions are automaticly covered and which conditions you nedd to apply for an ATT to transport a restricted firearm.

I have a RPAL but I have never owned a restricted weapon.
So both my licence and the conditions paper are blank?
(maybe this is adding to my confusion...)

Question
Are the conditions on your piece of paper also on the back of your licence?

[RangeBob]

I have a RPAL but I have never owned a restricted weapon.
So both my licence and the conditions paper are blank?

If you have an RPAL, you should have the piece of paper. It came with your licence card.


Are the conditions on your piece of paper also on the back of your licence?
No. They are different. The wording on the paper is more extensive, and
the words/wording it says are prescribed by law. The CFO is required to say those exact things, and they do.

[ultimaix]

I found a copy of Varsil post from Reddit here:
Someone should put this in your sticky section.
The guy has done his homework on this.

https://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php/1526279-PAL-quot-Conditions-quot

[stevebc]

1) I think you're way too worried about this.

2) Again, yes- you can laminate them.

[RELOAD]

The back of my RPAL lists what my possession and acquisition privileges are. the paper lists the conditions of what I can do with my privileges I.E transport. Why the list is not on the card is because we are dealing with govt disfunction. Yes I carry the paper I also have a copy of it in the range bag.

[ultimaix]

The back of my RPAL lists what my possession and acquisition privileges are. the paper lists the conditions of what I can do with my privileges I.E transport. Why the list is not on the card is because we are dealing with govt disfunction. Yes I carry the paper I also have a copy of it in the range bag.

Great answer !
- That's why they want me to carry this paper.
- Mine is blank because I don't have anything registered.
- They are to stupid to fix this.

Thanks for explaining that !

And this has been going on to everyone since 2007.
I just haven't noticed until now...

[labradort]

Over the years, I have renewed my RPAL four times and I have never seen this.
This last time took 6 months and...

When it finally arrived it was glued to a form that stated:
Please detach the licence conditions printed below and keep them with your licence at all times.
If requested by a peace officer or other authority, you must be able to provide both your licence and the licence conditions.

At the bottom of the form there is 'cut along the dotted line'
And the 'Conditions - Possession and Acquisition' section is below.
This section is blank with only my name, DOB, and licence number on it.
There is a 'Conditions' section on the back of my plastic PAL card, it is also blank.

Am I really required to carry this piece of paper with my licence?
What is the penalty if I am caught without it?
What if I am out in the rain hunting?
Am I allowed to laminate it?
Why must I carry it? There is no additional information on this form that is not on my plastic PAL card.

I am hoping someone can shed some light on this for me?
Are there any firearm instructors around that can help?

Thanks in advance !

p.s.
I have tried uploading a picture of this form, but I am not having any success on here.
Can I email someone the picture so they can post it on here for me?
Thanks !

The first time I received that paper with the PAL glued on, I treated it like the paper that has one's bank card would be glued to.

I didn't read the paper, I took my ID card off it and threw it away.

I thought my registration of certain firearms covered what basis there was for me owning them, and the common sense act by Harper created automatic ATTs for them.

Later I saw some debate online, maybe here, about it, and so the next time I had my PAL sent, I studied it closer and learned it has a legal value, in theory.

Like everything else in this game, its rigged for failure, and they have easy opportunities to hassle people over nothing. Paper will crinkle, fade, get lost....