newbie with pal, was embarrassed to talk at gun shop

From my first post, you can tell I am newbie, just got my PAL and went to Cabelas to look at firearms to buy and I have to admit I was bit embarrassed. I am not yet familiar with all the brands and terminology the employee was using when referencing to ammo and firearms and two customers tried to help me by saying things like "Don't buy plastic guns, it's going to be hard to find parts of an Italian gun, get a bigger barrel wall to help with heat so you don't have to wait long between shots, buy mil spec firearm"

I have a few questions and hoping I can get some help here and build some confidence:

1) where is the best place to so start and get familiar with all the guns, types, do can I tell what's cheap and won't last long vs what's going to be more reliable. (Forums, Youtube firearm reviews etc.)

I want to buy a shotgun (thinking pump action) and a rifle (bolt action). I want something that's going to be 1) accurate 2) best built quality and 3) has lots of easily available options to upgrade (looking to keep what I buy forever instead of regret and looking to sell in 6 months to upgrade)

- what I want to do with them: skeet shooting, join a club and target practice at a range and deer hunting (white tail/Elk)

- I am leaning towards: 590A1 Magpul (because its mil spec) and 700 Milspec 5R 6.5 creedmore (because it's a got a good barrel and lots of good reviews)

please feel free to comment and let me know i am off the track about this firearms

Welcome aboard, akimiski.

1) you've come to that "best place". Start clicking on threads, and feel free to ask questions.

2) I'm not a shotgun guy, but I do own a clone of a Remington 870. I'd suggest either an 870, or a Mossberg 500 series. Simple and reliable.

3) MilSpec: military specification. Not always necessary, and often just a marketing gimmick. Can't help you on the Rem 700 or 6.5 Creedmore, but you may want to price out the difference between the cost of 6.5 Creedmore, and other cartridges, say, Winchester .308. Ammo costs are significant. So much so, you may at some point want to consider reloading or handloading, ie, buying the components, and making your own. (Forget that for now, it's likely too much for you at this stage)

You don't have to answer, but if we knew the province you live in, we could recommend ranges, gun stores, etc.

There are no stupid questions. "Ask, and ye shall receive." Again, welcome aboard!

I wish I lived close to you so I could invite you over, because these are the sorts of questions that can’t be easily answered by text on message boards.

They require hours and hours of conversations and getting out to see things. If anything, you need someone really knowledgeable to go with you to Cabela’s or another big gun store to lay everything out in front of you to see and touch.

Online reviews and pics are not reliable, for example, all 9mm handguns may look high quality online, but see them all in person and a Ruger SR9 will look like garbage, a Glock will look okay, a Walther will look great, and a CZ will look amazing.

Rifles and shotguns are the same, in that anything less than $500 will likely be junk, getting closer to $1000 is getting nicer, and amazing rifles are generally $2000+ with some exceptions.

Even then, you still have to go hold them yourself to know what you like. Something like an SKS may sound good on paper, then you pick the thing up and realize it has the worst (straight) grip angle that feels terrible for your wrist.

I wish you the best of luck. Make some friend in a gun club or something, and you’ll find that they’re generally helpful people.

First of all, welcome to the GOC forums.
Second, do not feel embarrassed, most big box sporting goods stores employ sales staff that likely have never handled any of the wares they hawk in the field. Best you ask around, meet up with folks who will let you have a go with their firearms. A box of ammo is a small price to pay for getting hands on experience.

:Beer time:

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Originally Posted by FALover

First of all, welcome to the GOC forums.
Second, do not feel embarrassed, most big box sporting goods stores employ sales staff that likely have never handled any of the wares they hawk in the field. Best you ask around, meet up with folks who will let you have a go with their firearms. A box of ammo is a small price to pay for getting hands on experience.

:Beer time:

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good advice - take it !!

First welcome to the forum and the sport.

There are a few of us shotgun people on here. First please define what you consider “skeet shooting”. Informal pasture clays or actual gun club clay targets? Without knowing that we can’t give you any detailed advice.

I looked up a Mossberg 590A1 Magpul and from the specs I saw, it’s not a good fit for either definition of “skeet shooting”. A 20” fixed cylinder choke barrel with rifle sights will be a significant handicap. Milspec in this part of the sport means nothing. You’re going to want a longer barrel, possibly screw in chokes and bead sights. Shooting a moving target means locking your eyes on the target and letting hand eye coordination do the work. You should see the rib and bead as a blur in the foreground.

If you truly want to try out the clay target games, contact your nearest club. Explain your situation. Ask if they rent guns. Ask if you could have an experienced member mentor you your first trip out. Most likely someone will be happy to introduce you to the sport and get you off on the right foot. If you live, or are going to be in,Manitoba next spring when our club reopens for the summer I will gladly take you myself

As for the rifle stuff, I bow to the members here who have far more experience in that arena than I

For pump action shotguns, the guys have named the common go-to ones. Remington went out of business, and as far as I know nobody has picked up the shotguns stuff so they aren't making 870's right now. There's a crap ton of them in the used market through. They're a very reliable gun. The Mossberg 590 series is Mossberg's answer to the Reminton 870. I've had really good reports on the Maverik 88s as well. There's tons of aftermarket options for the 870s and the 590s. If you want to get into higher end stuff, look at brands like Benelli. Not as many aftermarket add ons for those, but they make damned nice guns.

Bolt action....oh boy. That's a loaded question. There are a LOT of good options out there. Don't worry about staying away from "plastic" guns. The polymer stock world is upon us, and there's nothing wrong with most of them. If you want to get into the nicer hunting rifles, look at stuff like Tikka and Browning. That said, there aren't a lot of "crappy" rifles out there. Again, don't worry about "plastic" stocks. I've got plenty of wood and plenty of plastic. They both hold up fine, and the critter you're shooting at doesn't give a dam what it's made of.

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Originally Posted by blacksmithden

For pump action shotguns, the guys have named the common go-to ones. Remington went out of business, and as far as I know nobody has picked up the shotguns stuff so they aren't making 870's right now. There's a crap ton of them in the used market through. They're a very reliable gun. The Mossberg 590 series is Mossberg's answer to the Reminton 870. I've had really good reports on the Maverik 88s as well. There's tons of aftermarket options for the 870s and the 590s. If you want to get into higher end stuff, look at brands like Benelli. Not as many aftermarket add ons for those, but they make damned nice guns.

Bolt action....oh boy. That's a loaded question. There are a LOT of good options out there. Don't worry about staying away from "plastic" guns. The polymer stock world is upon us, and there's nothing wrong with most of them. If you want to get into the nicer hunting rifles, look at stuff like Tikka and Browning. That said, there aren't a lot of "crappy" rifles out there. Again, don't worry about "plastic" stocks. I've got plenty of wood and plenty of plastic. They both hold up fine, and the critter you're shooting at doesn't give a dam what it's made of.

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And don't forget that at one time "Mil-spec" was synonymous with "low government bidder".

Welcome to the forum.
There are plenty of intelligent people on here willing to impart on you their wisdom.
Keep asking questions and give it some time for people to answer.
I don't have much to add about which guns to look at, it really depends on how much $ you want to spend.
For relatively inexpensive rifles, I have had great luck with Savage.

In my experience the folks that work in smaller local gun stores are willing to help and answer questions.
Good luck and have fun with the experiences of shopping for your first rifle and shotgun.

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Originally Posted by stevebc

Welcome aboard, akimiski.

1) you've come to that "best place". Start clicking on threads, and feel free to ask questions.

2) I'm not a shotgun guy, but I do own a clone of a Remington 870. I'd suggest either an 870, or a Mossberg 500 series. Simple and reliable.

3) MilSpec: military specification. Not always necessary, and often just a marketing gimmick. Can't help you on the Rem 700 or 6.5 Creedmore, but you may want to price out the difference between the cost of 6.5 Creedmore, and other cartridges, say, Winchester .308. Ammo costs are significant. So much so, you may at some point want to consider reloading or handloading, ie, buying the components, and making your own. (Forget that for now, it's likely too much for you at this stage)

You don't have to answer, but if we knew the province you live in, we could recommend ranges, gun stores, etc.

There are no stupid questions. "Ask, and ye shall receive." Again, welcome aboard!

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thank you, plan go through as many posts here as I can. thanks for the tip regarding mil spec. I am in Ontario so any range recommendations would be super helpful. PAL without practice is no use.

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Originally Posted by Petamocto

I wish I lived close to you so I could invite you over, because these are the sorts of questions that can’t be easily answered by text on message boards.

They require hours and hours of conversations and getting out to see things. If anything, you need someone really knowledgeable to go with you to Cabela’s or another big gun store to lay everything out in front of you to see and touch.

Online reviews and pics are not reliable, for example, all 9mm handguns may look high quality online, but see them all in person and a Ruger SR9 will look like garbage, a Glock will look okay, a Walther will look great, and a CZ will look amazing.

Rifles and shotguns are the same, in that anything less than $500 will likely be junk, getting closer to $1000 is getting nicer, and amazing rifles are generally $2000+ with some exceptions.

Even then, you still have to go hold them yourself to know what you like. Something like an SKS may sound good on paper, then you pick the thing up and realize it has the worst (straight) grip angle that feels terrible for your wrist.

I wish you the best of luck. Make some friend in a gun club or something, and you’ll find that they’re generally helpful people.

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thanks, I have started to find store around Toronto and have started to visit them to see/hold the firearms and yes I am not looking to buy the cheapest one, wants something durable that will last me a long time and willing to pay for that.

Is there a range around your area that you can "rent" a gun ?
I know it is quite expensive to pay like $10 for 3 rounds of shotgun slugs/buck shots, but it will let you have some hands on the different type of weapons and that might give you some idea on what you want.
There are a few "types" of shotgun, combat/tactical, hunting, sports shooting (skeet/trap etc) and it is best you decide on what you want to do before you buy. Like some had point out, a Mossberg 590 is probably not the best skeet or trap gun.

don't give the cabela's guys too much credit. there's a good chance they don't know much more than you do

There are no stupid questions. Keep it simple, stick to the more common calibers 22lr, 223, 243, 270, 308, 3006. These calibers are easy to find at can. tire and walmart. Budget friendly guns( savage axis, tikka t3 etc) will kill deer, moose and elk just as well as the expensive guns. Don't over think this stuff, have fun and welcome the club.

as a matter of fact, two customers at the store were giving me better tips than the store employee who was trying to stick to showing me what I asked to be pulled from the cabinet and answering only the questions I had. chatting to owners is best so will be looking for those opportunities.

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Originally Posted by MKivSupra

don't give the cabela's guys too much credit. there's a good chance they don't know much more than you do

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as a matter of fact, two customers at the store were giving me better tips than the store employee who was trying to stick to showing me what I asked to be pulled from the cabinet and answering only the questions I had. chatting to owners is best so will be looking for those opportunities.

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Originally Posted by murph83

There are no stupid questions. Keep it simple, stick to the more common calibers 22lr, 223, 243, 270, 308, 3006. These calibers are easy to find at can. tire and walmart. Budget friendly guns( savage axis, tikka t3 etc) will kill deer, moose and elk just as well as the expensive guns. Don't over think this stuff, have fun and welcome the club.

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today I looked at Tikka T3X and liked the feel, I am thinking I am going to go for it, maybe with 308 or 6.5 creed more (for the recoil and long range accuracy) since I will be looking for practice on the range with that (once I am able to find a range and secure a spot for membership), every range I looked it are at full capacity in Ontario around GTA.

For the shotgun, can anyone help me determine f I should be looking for pump action first or just get the semi auto? primarily use will be target practice, secondary use would be hunting

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Originally Posted by wai556

Is there a range around your area that you can "rent" a gun ?
I know it is quite expensive to pay like $10 for 3 rounds of shotgun slugs/buck shots, but it will let you have some hands on the different type of weapons and that might give you some idea on what you want.
There are a few "types" of shotgun, combat/tactical, hunting, sports shooting (skeet/trap etc) and it is best you decide on what you want to do before you buy. Like some had point out, a Mossberg 590 is probably not the best skeet or trap gun.

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thanks for the tips, all ranges I searched around Toronto are membership only and there seems to be wait time and they all seems to state that you have to bring your own firearm. I will keep looking but if anyone has any range suggestions then please feel free to share.

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Originally Posted by akimiski

today I looked at Tikka T3X and liked the feel, I am thinking I am going to go for it, maybe with 308 or 6.5 creed more (for the recoil and long range accuracy) since I will be looking for practice on the range with that (once I am able to find a range and secure a spot for membership), every range I looked it are at full capacity in Ontario around GTA.

For the shotgun, can anyone help me determine f I should be looking for pump action first or just get the semi auto? primarily use will be target practice, secondary use would be hunting

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Its up to you. Just be aware that some semi auto shotguns dont always cycle with some light loads. You'll never have that problem with a pump action. I have a semi auto but I find I shoot my Remington 870 pump 99% of the time. Its just what Im used to.

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Originally Posted by blacksmithden

Its up to you. Just be aware that some semi auto shotguns dont always cycle with some light loads. You'll never have that problem with a pump action. I have a semi auto but I find I shoot my Remington 870 pump 99% of the time. Its just what Im used to.

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that's what I have been reading as well, as it's going to be my first shotgun, I am going to go with pump action, likely Benelli SuperNova with telescopic stock.

Try it before you buy it. You may think you want a Lamborghini, but a Corvette might suit you better.

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Originally Posted by akimiski

that's what I have been reading as well, as it's going to be my first shotgun, I am going to go with pump action, likely Benelli SuperNova with telescopic stock.

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A 'tactical' stock will almost always have considerably more felt recoil than a traditional stock.

With all of these guns, find one that fits you; pick a spot on the wall and bring the gun up. If the sights line up on the spot you picked, you will find you have much more success.

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Originally Posted by Rory McCanuck

A 'tactical' stock will almost always have considerably more felt recoil than a traditional stock.

With all of these guns, find one that fits you; pick a spot on the wall and bring the gun up. If the sights line up on the spot you picked, you will find you have much more success.

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Didn’t know about recoil, thanks for that tip.

Welcome to the forum and the sport.

I'll add a general nugget of info that applies with EVERY discipline of shooting you get into:

Whatever your budget is, buy the most inexpensive gun you can to do the kind of shooting you want to, and spend the bulk of your money on ammo and practice.

I'm quite serious about reloading and "practical" marksmanship, and currently I'm running 2x Mossberg MVP Patrol Rifle's in .223 and 1x Ruger American Predator in .223.

I also have a Remington 700 SPS Tactical and Savage Model 10 TR both in .308.

Nothing there is particularly high end, but with the right load, I can consistently land 1.5-2 MOA groups and hit a 20" plate at 500 meters with all 5 of those guns (I've yet to shoot further with the .308's - but I'm confident I could do it).

I won't win any competitions with that level of performance, but I can get a LOT of data and practice all the important skills of rifle marksmanship with those capabilities (my frame of reference is as a former Canadian Army Small Arms Training range operator).

I'd say any 1 of those are perfect builds for a new rifle shooters to learn the basics of rifle marksmanship.

If I were new into the sport, I'd have picked just 1, it's a toss up between either the Ruger AP or the Mossberg MVP if I just wanted to learn rifle marksmanship... it's too much of a toss up with my .308's for hunting... although I also have a Marlin XL7 I bought and never really shot that would probably be a better hunting rifle than either the Remington 700 or the Savage 10 TR.

To just my .223's I have reloading components to load about 10k rounds (my 300 yard "Plinking loads" and 500 yard "Precision loads").

To my .308's, I only have enough reloading components to load about 1500 such loads, so I'm spending more of my time trying to source more large rifle components so I can load and shoot more.

I have a personal reloaders philosophy of: "For every plinking round I load to shoot, I want to load and save 2 to shoot 20 years in the future" (It's 1:1 for my precision rounds).

(One thing to note, though is a .223 is too underpowered for most big game hunting - but I'm more interested in target shooting than hunting, and shooting/reloading .223 is more inexpensive compared to shooting/reloading a .308, which itself is pretty cheap among other large rifle calibers.)

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Originally Posted by harbl_the_cat

Welcome to the forum and the sport.

I'll add a general nugget of info that applies with EVERY discipline of shooting you get into:

Whatever your budget is, buy the most inexpensive gun you can to do the kind of shooting you want to, and spend the bulk of your money on ammo and practice.

I'm quite serious about reloading and "practical" marksmanship, and currently I'm running 2x Mossberg MVP Patrol Rifle's in .223 and 1x Ruger American Predator in .223.

I also have a Remington 700 SPS Tactical and Savage Model 10 TR both in .308.

Nothing there is particularly high end, but with the right load, I can consistently land 1.5-2 MOA groups and hit a 20" plate at 500 meters with all 5 of those guns (I've yet to shoot further with the .308's - but I'm confident I could do it).

I won't win any competitions with that level of performance, but I can get a LOT of data and practice all the important skills of rifle marksmanship with those capabilities (my frame of reference is as a former Canadian Army Small Arms Training range operator).

I'd say any 1 of those are perfect builds for a new rifle shooters to learn the basics of rifle marksmanship.

If I were new into the sport, I'd have picked just 1, it's a toss up between either the Ruger AP or the Mossberg MVP if I just wanted to learn rifle marksmanship... it's too much of a toss up with my .308's for hunting... although I also have a Marlin XL7 I bought and never really shot that would probably be a better hunting rifle than either the Remington 700 or the Savage 10 TR.

To just my .223's I have reloading components to load about 10k rounds (my 300 yard "Plinking loads" and 500 yard "Precision loads").

To my .308's, I only have enough reloading components to load about 1500 such loads, so I'm spending more of my time trying to source more large rifle components so I can load and shoot more.

I have a personal reloaders philosophy of: "For every plinking round I load to shoot, I want to load and save 2 to shoot 20 years in the future" (It's 1:1 for my precision rounds).

(One thing to note, though is a .223 is too underpowered for most big game hunting - but I'm more interested in target shooting than hunting, and shooting/reloading .223 is more inexpensive compared to shooting/reloading a .308, which itself is pretty cheap among other large rifle calibers.)

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Thanks for the tip in bold there, i am sure rest of the details you shared will eventually sink in :)

Once question: should I go with 308 or 6.5 Creedmoor and why? (Keeping aside minor difference in pricing and availability, is there a reason to buy .308 instead of 6.5 for target practice (100y, 300y, 500y) and for some light hunting (white tail/Elk)

I have a 6.5CM, and I quite like it, but it's a target gun.
The fellows at the LGS (Local Gun Shop) passed on many reports of deer getting hit with the Creedmoor and walking away.
I'm a big fan of the 6.5x55 Swede, and it's probably killed more moose than any other gun, but I'm not sure that there's really much difference that an animal will notice.
So, take that for what it's worth...

Welcome to the world of firearms where things don't always make sense, and people can have very firm convictions based on nothing more than 'I have one, so it must be the best ever.'

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Originally Posted by akimiski

Thanks for the tip in bold there, i am sure rest of the details you shared will eventually sink in :)

Once question: should I go with 308 or 6.5 Creedmoor and why? (Keeping aside minor difference in pricing and availability, is there a reason to buy .308 instead of 6.5 for target practice (100y, 300y, 500y) and for some light hunting (white tail/Elk)

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I've heard 6.5 CM gives better long range ballistics and less felt recoil than a .308, but a 6.5 typically runs smaller bullets - which means less killing power and less of a "ping" on steel.

I also almost NEVER find 6.5 CM brass on the range - my guess is everyone who shots it reloads it, whereas .308 brass is much more common.

I'd say I find 20-50x as much reloadable .308 brass than I do 6.5cm.

As Canadians, that's a VERY important factor to take into account as well: ammo availability, because it's not uncommon for some calibers of ammunition to be unavailable (or in very low supplies) for years at a time.

That's why a lot of guys reload (myself included) - because we've lived through ammo shortages and it's not fun.

For the better part of the past 15 years it usually happens when an American Democratic is president.

.308 will be easier to find on the shelves at your LGS. If you go hunting and you forget your ammo at home, finding .308 will be easier.

If you're looking for a dual-purpose rifle (target/hunting) beware of the barrel profile. You probably don't want to be lugging around a bull barrel on a deer or moose hunt.

You mentioned Elk. 22 tags available last year. I wish you the best of luck, but make sure you get your shooting shorted out first. You don't want to miss that shot.

Another vote for .308, because unless you're shooting at VERY long distances, .308 will do all that 6.5C will do. As mentioned, it's easier to find, and usually cheaper, too.

And good advice on the barrel profile, which points up the difference between a hunting rifle and target rifle. Neither works well in the other discipline.

That's not say you can't shoot your scoped hunting rifle out to great distances, but you aren't going to be competitive with it. And as mentioned, you won't want to haul an F-class rifle into the bush to go hunting. Well, not more than once.

And getting back to cost- I don't know your budget, but with even .308 running at about $2.50 per round (quick grab from Cabelas and 150gr bullets, and there were a lot more pricey options), just think about the cost:

BANG (there goes $2.50) BANG (again) BANG (hmmm) BANG (well there goes 10 bucks)... Put it this way: when you do shoot that stuff off, SAVE YOUR BRASS, because you'll either stop shooting completely, or start rolling your own. Brass can be used many times.


There's a reason why so many are taking up rimfire: cost.

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Originally Posted by stevebc

Another vote for .308, because unless you're shooting at VERY long distances, .308 will do all that 6.5C will do. As mentioned, it's easier to find, and usually cheaper, too.

And good advice on the barrel profile, which points up the difference between a hunting rifle and target rifle. Neither works well in the other discipline.

That's not say you can't shoot your scoped hunting rifle out to great distances, but you aren't going to be competitive with it. And as mentioned, you won't want to haul an F-class rifle into the bush to go hunting. Well, not more than once.

And getting back to cost- I don't know your budget, but with even .308 running at about $2.50 per round (quick grab from Cabelas and 150gr bullets, and there were a lot more pricey options), just think about the cost:

BANG (there goes $2.50) BANG (again) BANG (hmmm) BANG (well there goes 10 bucks)... Put it this way: when you do shoot that stuff off, SAVE YOUR BRASS, because you'll either stop shooting completely, or start rolling your own. Brass can be used many times.


There's a reason why so many are taking up rimfire: cost.

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.308... because it's what all the old guys shoot, lol...

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Originally Posted by harbl_the_cat

.308... because it's what all the old guys shoot, lol...

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Neither of us can shoot well enough to notice the difference between .308 and 6.5 CM. And you can buy it in the Canadian Tire in Kenora. The old guys actually shoot 30-06.

If you're new to shooting, why not buy a .22 LR? Way cheaper to shoot. Less distance to walk to your targets. You'll pay for the rifle in ammo cost before you get any good.

First: this is amazingly simple and good information:

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Originally Posted by murph83

There are no stupid questions. Keep it simple, stick to the more common calibers 22lr, 223, 243, 270, 308, 3006. These calibers are easy to find at can. tire and walmart. Budget friendly guns( savage axis, tikka t3 etc) will kill deer, moose and elk just as well as the expensive guns. Don't over think this stuff, have fun and welcome the club.

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Second, you were right on track here, but I suggest a 700 MilSpec in .308Win, as your first thoughts on the durability and use of the pump and bolt action are good:

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Originally Posted by akimiski

I want to buy a shotgun (thinking pump action) and a rifle (bolt action). I want something that's going to be 1) accurate 2) best built quality and 3) has lots of easily available options to upgrade (looking to keep what I buy forever instead of regret and looking to sell in 6 months to upgrade)

- I am leaning towards: 590 and 700 Milspec (because it's a got a good barrel and lots of good reviews)

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I can tell you from hands on real world experience with looking at harvesting game, from small white tail deer to moose & elk, the .308Win outperforms the 6.5 Creedmoor by a little bit. That's just my mileage, as yours might vary. That is also using the 6.5 and .308 calibres to their advantages: 6.5 for deer on open prairies and 308 for everything. Just everything. I carry a .308Win, where legal (not in parks) with hand loaded 220 grain Sierra round nose bullets should a bear or other animal be a threat against my life.

EDIT - Number one tip when doing scopes and mount: Don't let anyone mount the scope too high. You need proper cheek weld to be a good shooter when hunting. Any large diameter scope (like bigger than 42mm objective), in my opinion, requires a cheek rest adapter, riser, pad or something. Again, advice is worth what it is... free.

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Now, shotguns are something different. The plastic adjustable stocks are great if you plan to share it with those of different body sizes than you, or want to get a combo gun with both the long choked barrel as well as a very short barrel. The basic Mossberg pump shotguns, with both barrel sets, are great and no gun owner should be without one.

When you get into wood stocked guns there is non-adjustable measurements, a slew of them. In a rifle a lot of the time using scope bases and rings can adjust how to aim a rifle to fit you. A shotgun does this by these non-changeable measurements. Fit of a wood stock shotgun is paramount. Here is a good guide for you to read some time: https://www.theyorkshiregent.com/sho...e-fit-shotgun/

The super shortened explanation: a solid stock (plastic, fibre glass, composite or wood) is best, and unless you are a very generic person trying out, swinging and mounting the gun to your shoulder is mandatory. The top two things that keep me in a store trying, trying and trying out over and over again is: second, buying shoes... and first, buying a shotgun.

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So, you will get lots of advice. Most gun owners buy a few, sell a few, and learn their likes and dislikes. Your gut instinct went with the 590: my opinion, is a good choice. Your first instinct was the 700: my opinion, that's a good choice too.

Oh, By the way: big disclaimer. Cause this is great advice too:

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Originally Posted by Grimlock

Neither of us can shoot well enough to notice the difference between .308 and 6.5 CM. And you can buy it in the Canadian Tire in Kenora. The old guys actually shoot 30-06.

If you're new to shooting, why not buy a .22 LR? Way cheaper to shoot. Less distance to walk to your targets. You'll pay for the rifle in ammo cost before you get any good.

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Thank you for all you above, .308 is what I am going to get (due to all the reasons you have mentioned able plus I looked at the Ontario Rifle Association where I can make use of the military ranges and they ask for 308) I am going to get it in Tikka T3X Lite Stainless Steel, that looked and felt good in hands. I do want to be able to use for hunting deer so that should work.

For shotgun, it’s going to be Benelli Supernova 28 inch (comfort grip instead of telescopic tactical) so I can use it for skeet and target practice

Go to https://mapleseedrifleman.com/ get on their mailing list and sign up for a shooting clinic in your are when it's offered. Although it revolves around shooting a .22 EVERYTHING that you will learm translate to to all your other shooting.

Look at getting a .22 as it's a great training tool and a lot of fun.

I believe that the .308( I own several 6.5s) is a more versitile bullet in that there are more avalible options( especially if you don't reload... yet) It's a great hunting round(chosing correct bullet for the game) and for target shooting, by the time you've maxed out the range on the .308 for target shoot you'll have a bunch of experience under your belt.

I didn’t know about tags for Elks, reading up on that now…thanks.

What’s the cost different between buying ammo vs reloading yourself? 25% saving or 50% or 75%?

That depends on how much you value your time.

Typically, you don't reload for the sole purpose of saving money. Have a look at the reloading section. Prices have obviously changed since those threads were started, but you'll find the information you need. If you're just getting started, your chances of saving any amount of money at all at this point are slim to none. If you want to get into reloading, make sure it's because you're looking for a new hobby and/or you want to load a specific caliber to specific characteristics for a specific purpose. Otherwise, you'll be doing it for the wrong reason.

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Originally Posted by akimiski

What’s the cost different between buying ammo vs reloading yourself? 25% saving or 50% or 75%?

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For me to reload .223, I bought most of my components 5-10 years ago when you could get primers for $2/100, bullets for $0.09, and powder for $20/lbs.

Components keep indefinitely if you store them somewhat properly, so does ammo...

So for me to load 1000 rounds of .223, what I paid for my stockpiled components costs me about $180.

I know my loads are equal quality to factory loads that are about $750 per 1000 rounds today.

So for me, the cost savings of reloading are something like 75% but that's just because I've waited VERY long before reloading components I've diligently stored away over the years.

That's the neat part about reloading. If you had the intention of doing it and got everything you needed to do it, the longer you put off doing it, the more rewarding it becomes... both financially and as a hobby...

I think the mind set of reloading simply to save money leads to reloading becoming a chore. If it's a chore then time is money becomes a big factor but IMHO then you're reloading for the wrong reason

My journey into reloading started when it looked like ammo was looking to get scarce( it happens almost on cycle and around the time of US elections). What I discovered was I enjoyed it and found it relaxing, it allowed me to create specific loads to the firearm and application, I got a better understanding of how firearms function( bulet weights,shapes,rifling) and my groups got smaller along with accuracy increace.The cost savings does happen especially in the larger calibers and less popular ones.


I think if you have a lot going on and reloading is a rushed event or a chore then time is money and you probably don't have time or an additional hobby. Reloading is a hobby and when you start looking at your other hobbies on a time cost basis... guess what it's not a hobby

I enjoy many aspects of reloading, like shutting out everything else and concentrating on the task at hand, I enjoy the precision that goes along with trying to make more and more accurate loads, i also like having components to be able to load up some bullets when non-reloaders are trying to find ammo.
I also enjoy the fact that I can make a loaded round of 9mm for around $0.20 each (I haven't had to buy components in a while) vs around $0,70 each for relatively inexpensive factory ammo.
The above cost doesn't take into account any of my reloading equipment, of which there is a lot, and they don't give that stuff away. By the time you pay for the equipment needed you could have bought alot of factory ammo. I'm not trying to dissuade you from getting into reloading because it is a great hobby, just make sure you really enjoy shooting enough and actually shoot enough to warrant the cost.

There are ways to lower equipment cost, such as buying used, most of the more expensive things don't easily wear out.

You might not save money now reloading, but you can make more accurate ammo (With lots of time/learning/experimentation). Like harbl mentioned, the price of stuff only goes up so if you buy components now, you save later and have more accurate ammo. I have enough components to make at least a couple of thousand rounds of each of the calibers I shoot. And I’ll shoot it at 1/5 of the cost of factory ammo now. Also, the factory ammo and/or components might not be around when you need it in a few years.

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Originally Posted by akimiski

What’s the cost different between buying ammo vs reloading yourself? 25% saving or 50% or 75%?

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For me, tailoring the ammunition to the firearm and the animal hunted has always been the primary reason. I shoot 125grain, 168grain and 220 grain Sierra bullets hand loaded from the same .308 rifle and scope. It took a few years to get the right combination of primers, powders, bullet crimp and bullet seating depth to get the same windage (left-right) point of aim from every one. The 125grain and 168grain are about 1 MOA, while the 220 grain is about 6 MOA, but the 220's are for under 50 yard shots only.

Which mean my second reason for hand loading: a unique, challenging and rewarding hobby could be practiced.

Lastly has been cost. Reloading to save money is for when you are shooting a lot, in my opinion. A very lot. But that also requires the initial money to pay for expensive progressive presses that put you a half step below a small commercial reloading business. Calibers for competitions out of semi-automatic firearms like 12guage, 223, 308, 9mm, and a few other handgun calibers are the main ones, where you're expected weekend of competition (friendly and up to Pro) is 200 rounds of 12guage, 200 rounds of rifle and 400 rounds of handgun. Go to 6 competitions in a year and 6000 rounds of ammo gets expensive.

There's another dimension to reloading nobody mentions but everyone thinks about... the usefulness of reloading as a skill in the event of TEOTWAWKI... which for those of us who have been into guns and reloading for a while... has just happened.

The idea being if there was every a truly apocalyptic "end of the world" kind of scenario, reloading would be one of the most valuable skills to have - especially if the grid fails and supply chains collapse.

That was one thing I hadn't considered pre-COVID: having something to do when you're board as TSHTF.

One of the things that kept me sane during the lockdowns and vaccine mandates was reloading... especially case prep.

When you're not allowed to go out and do anything because you're not vaccinated, sorting 50k pieces of .223 brass by headstamp is a really good way to pass the time.

I spent as much time just sorting brass as most people did watching Netflix, YouTube or going on TikTok during the lockdowns... It was time very well spent.

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Originally Posted by akimiski

What’s the cost different between buying ammo vs reloading yourself? 25% saving or 50% or 75%?

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This was quite a while ago, but I got a Lee kit on sale for $100.
I got components to make 100 rounds for another $100.
Store bought was costing me $2 a shot, so when I was through the box of bullets and primers, the equipment had paid for itself, and I still had about 1/3 of a pound of powder left.
Then I decided I really enjoyed reloading, and went pretty stupid buying equipment.
If I 'save' much more, I'll be living out of a cardboard box. :rolleyes:

The biggest thing was, it got me out shooting.
When all you have is a box of ammo, you don't want to go shooting because then you'll be out.
Now, when I shoot everything up, I get to go to the reloading bench and play Mad Scientist.


*I just checked Cabela's.
The Lee kit is on for $200 now, and the ammo I was shooting isn't even available (444 Marlin) but the same ammo is available in 45-70 (very similar)
$90 for a box of 20 :eek1:
So, the math still works out to about the same ratio, just with a whole bunch more dollars involved.

Heh yeah I started with a lee loadmaster kit that came with 45 acp and 223 dies and 100 of each bullet. $200 USD for the lot. X-mas deal south of the border. On the way back I declared it and they waved me through! I thought the projectiles would cause a stir but apparently not (at least that one time).

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Originally Posted by akimiski

"Don't buy plastic guns, it's going to be hard to find parts of an Italian gun,

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Any parts you need for Benelli, Beretta, Franchi are all at https://www.stoegercanada.ca/ https://www.stoegercanada.ca/parts/

Never had any issues with ordering parts from them!

Except they ship via UPS, which is basically a crime.