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Hi Everyone,
I recently gotten into shooting and got my R/PAL. As a first purchase I went with Smith & Wesson M&P 2.0 - Range kit.
I received my order today with it I got a Buyer Transfer certificate. I am wondering if I need to wait to receive the actual registration or can I transport and use my firearm at the range?:confused1:
Thanks.
Wait.
Canada Post is slow.
The transfer approval only allows you to take it home.
Thank Linung. How long is the process for registration? Is it mailed same time as the issuing of transfer certificate?
It depends on backlog. It's sent from a different place. In my case they have my email address so the transfer cert is sent there. I've found it is normally within 2 weeks in my region. It's going to be slower this time of the year due to Christmas mail volume. The CFO likely would tell you 4 to 6 weeks as a canned answer since they don't have tabs on what happens at Miramachi and the like.Quote:
Originally Posted by metalninja
You can wait, or you can just go shoot. :)
A registration certificate is not a transport document, it's a possession document. Your notice of transfer is a de facto registration certificate until your permanent one arrives.
That is 100% not true. Every single time I've called in to the CFC to follow up on a longer than normal transfer for a customer, they remind me that the transfer notice allows me to release the gun to the customer so they can take it home. They then remind me to tell them that they have to wait for the registration certificate before they can take is out to the range (or, leave their home with it for any reason). Now...the odds of getting pulled over or checked at the range by the cops is pretty slim and you MIGHT (likely will) get a pass from the cop if all you have is the transfer notice.Quote:
Originally Posted by IJ22
Yup, I've heard that responses from the CFO on this issue vary based on province and weather. Still, there is absolutely nothing in the law that allows for a "certificate of bringing a gun home". If the transfer notice is good for bringing the gun home and keeping it until your reg cert arrives, it's good for absolutely every other function of a registration certificate as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by blacksmithden
It's a completely useless additional step on the government's part. To the best of my knowledge, no one has EVER received a transfer notice and then not gotten a registration certificate. It's just another way for useless bureaucrats to make us wait a little longer, and keep themselves employed. I'm sure some liberal somewhere has shares in the company that prints the paperwork and mails it.Quote:
Originally Posted by IJ22
Welcome to GOC.
Have you and everyone you know with a valid email address signed this petition yet? We have to keep those signatures climbing, or you might not have the ability to use that M&P for long.
https://petitions.ourcommons.ca/en/Petition/Sign/e-2341
as this is the first restricted, you will have to wait for:Quote:
Originally Posted by metalninja
1) actual printed certificate
2) *.0002 version of RPAL card - make sure to keep and carry the CONDITIONS part of the paper it's glued to (or ask CFO for a printed ATT)
Added: CFO's and CFP's answers to this question may vary, but it all will depend on the decision of the LEO who stopped you.
It could end with your firearm "arrested" and you will have 14 days to produce paperwork to get it "freed".
As all certificates (and cards) are printed in batches by CFC and sent out by regular CP mail , it may take more time this season to arrive.
Up to you to gamble or not .
PS. My last certificate arrived closer to 3 weeks after TN and the firearm (late November)
This question comes up from time to time. Personally, I wait until the certificate arrives in the snail-mail.
- The criminal code says you must be able to produce the registration certificate "on demand" by a peace officer. If the police officer believes that's the paper certificate and you don't have it, then you get arrested.
- Since the paper certificate is easily faked, police with access to any form of communication (voice phone, radio, computer) check with the CFRO database because it's not the paper certificate but the database that indicates that you are a 'holder' of a registration certificate. Certainly the opposite is true: if you have the paper certificate in your hand, but the database says that certificate has been revoked, then you are not the 'holder' of a registration certificate according to the law.
- When the LGR ended, the Ontario CFO Wyatt declared that the registration was the certificate number. He then said that make/model/serial/pal/date had to be recorded in his log books for non-restricted firearms sales, but not the registration certificate number which no longer existed for non-restricted. This registration certificate number appears on your transfer paperwork. The minister of public safety told the CFOs they were not to record make/model/serial in the log books, the CFO said his interpretation was the law required it, and the conservatives clarified the law.
- If you phone the CFO's office and they say you can go, then in court you'd have the defence of "Officially Induced Error". But you still get arrested, spend $ in court, and it still could go either way.
The CFO's office routinely send ATTs via email.
Maybe they can send registration certificates by email, although I've not heard of anyone getting one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RangeBob
CFO approves transfer, Transfer Notice is generated and can be sent by CFO either by e-mail or snail mail to seller and/or buyer, but
registration certificates are printed ONLY by CFC in Miramichi and sent out by snail mail ONLY ..
it's done in weekly batches (similar to printing of R/PALs)
Sure, I get my Notification of Transfer by email all the time. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by RangeBob
The difficulty I have with being told I must keep my gun at home is that there is nothing in the law that creates an exemption for being in possession of a restricted firearm without a registration certificate as long as I just bought it and brought it home while I wait for a registration certificate. The way I see it, the NoT either IS a registration certificate, or it IS NOT a registration certificate. It's binary, there is no grey area. You're either fine taking your gun to the range, or you're already breaking the law by having brought your gun home. The CFP and CFO have a lot of discretionary powers, but inventing conditional registration certificates is not one of them.
I'm not going to bother digging one up now, but I'm pretty sure even the NoT says "you may now take possession....". It doesn't say you can only bring it home, and why would it, it's a possession document, not a transport document. :)
It certainly isn't grey area if this is the first registration with an RPAL. After registration of the first restricted, a second RPAL license card is sent out with revised conditions. Those revised conditions include taking it out for the range trip.
We don't have ATT papers anymore, they are said to be "attached" to the RPAL, but this is how they are attached, by expanded conditions and the completed registration of the firearm. I'd agree it is grey to us in terms of explaining it well, but that doesn't mean it is grey to the mechanics of the law.
To take another example, suppose you are getting a hunting license for something were there is a draw. You might learn you've won a spot from the completed draw by some online process or an email. You still need to wait for the license to be in your hands before you can hunt that game.
As I understand it the OP has a new RPAL from scratch, not an upgrade from a PAL. I've never been in that situation, so question for the OP, did your license come with special conditions attached, and a list of those special conditions attached?Quote:
Originally Posted by labradort
When C-42 came into force I was told by the CFO here in Ontario that the conditions are attached electronically, and that I did not have to wait for my new license card.
Interested to see if the CFC consider a brand new RPAL a "renewal". :)
Whole different ball of wax from the reg cert though, as the ATT in fact IS a transport document. :)
The NoT is not a registration certificate.Quote:
Originally Posted by IJ22
The question is whether the NoT, which has the registration certificate number on it, is proof that you are the "holder" of a registration certificate.
Since in order to have a registration certificate number you must have a registration certificate in the CFRO database. The number is proof of, and the index to, a valid registration certificate for you and that gun (thus you are the holder in that sense), you just don't have it in your hand yet (which is holder in another sense).
The next question is if you can convince a cop of that, and then if you can convince a court of that.
It's probably cheaper & easier to wait.
I did not know that I will be getting or need a new RPAL as well. My RPAL says standard conditions apply and on the back it says possession restricted and non-restricted. No other conditions are there.
Does that mean I now have to wait for a new RPAL as well?
Thanks everyone for all the great info.
I will not be taking the chance and will wait for my registration certificate to arrive before going to Range.
Under special conditions for the second RPAL, you would find:
"Transport of restricted firearms and/or prohibited handguns (12(6.1)) possessed for the purpose of target practice to and from all shooting clubs and ranges approved under section 29 of the Firearms Act."
These conditions are NOT PRINTED ON THE PLASTIC. Look at the PAPER which held the RPAL glued on. If you're like many people, that paper goes in the trash like the paper that held your banking card, etc., in the mail. It doesn't work like any other plastic card you have. This seemingly piece of "blah, blah, blah" paper holding the plastic license is part of the license! Keep it. Copy it. Carry it.
:) Fair enough, that's way too esoteric for me. Let me rephrase thusly: All the powers vested in the little piece of paper titled "Registration Certificate" are also vested in the little piece of paper called the "Notice of Transfer (Buyer)" . :)Quote:
Originally Posted by RangeBob
You won't need to wait for your new RPAL, but DO call the CFO to confirm that the conditions have been added to your license. That should have happened automatically when your new gun was registered to you but it's a good idea to make sure. Your new license card will say "Special conditions are attached" with the paper containing the added details labradort described.Quote:
Originally Posted by metalninja
A prudent choice. Unfortunate, but prudent. :) :)Quote:
I will not be taking the chance and will wait for my registration certificate to arrive before going to Range.
Merry Christmas everyone!!
Last two for me have both been 1 1/2 weeks.Quote:
Originally Posted by labradort
This is exactly what I have been told also by the Canadian Firearms Program when I have called them in the past. I wanted to play it safe, and requested an ATT for my pistol that I could take with me, and they told me I already have one. The registration number is the same on the confirmation as ton the Registration certificate.Quote:
Originally Posted by IJ22
All this said, it occurred to me that there are enough questions here at GOC and CGNs, and the unlicensed cops would be even less informed; I have always just waited that couple days to a couple weeks until it arrives; it's not like I have nothing else to shoot.
I just got a new GP100 private sale from AB to Ont. Transfer took 5 weeks; the gun was 6 1/2 days in transit, 9 Business days for the Cert. to arrive. I have not shot it yet as I have not had time to load ammo... I've had brass, powder, dies and primers for some time; bullets for a week and a half, shell plate for my press for a week: Tomorrows job. LOL.
Looks like I won't be going anywhere with my M&P till after new years. This was my first so I don't have anything else to shoot in the meantime.
While I wait. I still need to purchase some 9mm ammo. Since I am a member at Target Sports they dont allow steel ammo. Any recommendations?
I would recommend a fresh posting for that question. This thread has been about licensing and restricted registration. Not trying to kill your buzz. Just don't want to see this discussion become very unfocused - everyone will have an opinion on their favorite 9mm ammo.Quote:
Originally Posted by metalninja
to start with CCI Brass 9mm 124gr, 1000rnd for between 220 and 250 plus tax …Quote:
Originally Posted by metalninja
at least 2 vendors (referenced often enough on this and another sites) in GTA North of Steeles and between Bayview and Woodbine
at least one of them with fee shipping with order over 300 before taxes, another one slightly cheaper in-store but no free shipping ..
Thanks. Will create a new post for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by labradort
ATT is part of your RPAL not the registration paper, the paperwork you got from the retailer is enough
1) Show me someone who was charged for going to the range with only the notice of transfer and not the final reg cert, or not carrying that stupid card carrier paper.
2) Don't be the first guy.
If the paperwork "from the retailer" is sufficient, then why is the second registration mailed from Miramachi? Here's why: they need confirmation the address on file is current. I could claim to live anywhere and receive by email a transfer notice for the retail to home trip.
Also the first RPAL doesn't include the range trip conditions, so if it's the first restricted purchase (which attaches the purpose with a range membership in my case), the RPAL doesn't match this condition of how the firearm can be transported until the second RPAL card comes in the mail.
You can take the risk and it likely won't matter. The problem with this approach is the risk of things going wrong, and then you lose the right to possess. If you enjoy the firearms privilege, that's a big risk to take.
I got my RPAL with updated restrictions. It now has ATT conditions attached. No registration certificate yet. Hopefully that arrives soon.
"...It's a completely useless additional step..." So is Ontario's, mandated, club level, "safety" course. No law says that is required either.
Everything about the whole process is useless. It's designed to discourage new shooters and be as big a nuisance as possible.
In any case, it all depends on were you are. The Chretien Gang gave the administration of the FA to the Provinces. So every Province is different.
The registration certificate, what used to be called the Green Card, can take months to arrive. So if you haven't joined a club yet, go do that.
thanks, way better infoQuote:
Originally Posted by labradort
After reading this thread, I've come to the conclusion that the compliance rate for for a gun-give-back program, will be very high.:)