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  1. #1
    Owner - Tundra Supply jonanddad's Avatar
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    Preserving your wealth with gold and silver

    Post here about the gold and silver market.

  2. #2
    Resident Combine Pilot JustBen's Avatar
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    Disclaimer: I'm not a banker or an investment guru. But I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night. And last year, I made a killing playing the silver market. Your mileage will most likely vary.

    Traditionally, money was backed by precious metals; specifically silver and gold. The exchange rate between money and metal was fixed. In fact, many coins were made of silver (or a good percentage of it). The nice thing about this is that the government couldn't print more money than they had precious metal reserves to back up. This is no longer the case. Our currency is fiat meaning that it is not backed by anything other than the government itself. And we all know that isn't worth as much as it used to be.

    So, we've established that money loses its value with time. Provided that you have invested your money properly, it should be able to keep pace with inflation. But there is always the risk that your money won't... particularly if the world economy goes into the toilet. It is during these uncertain economic times that investors typically hedge their other investments with precious metals. This is because precious metals are a relatively sound investment. Over the long term, they are a safe, low returning investment. Kind of like a Canada Savings Bond, but better because they have high liquidity. If the economy really took a nose dive, the CSB wouldn't be worth the paper it was printed on.

    However, short term markets are highly variable. There is money to be made on the short term, but the degree of risk is increased substantially. This is how I played the market. This may not be for everyone, but I can guarantee that you will not lose money. You just have to be prepared to hold on to your silver and gold for a long time.

    Personally, I invested in silver. Why? Because it is significantly cheaper than gold. Some people say that the silver to gold price ratio makes silver undervalued. This may be true, but the average person can't afford to buy an ounce of gold every month. With silver, you can buy a couple pounds for less than a single ounce of gold. There's something to be said for volume. The price per ounce is called the spot price.

    Physical silver comes in several forms. You can buy bars or coins. Depending on the purity and the manufacturer, you will pay a few dollars above spot price. The most common form to trade seems to the the Royal Canadian Mint's Maple Leaves. These "silver maples" go for about 10% over spot price based on my experiences. I bought mine through a coin dealer in tubes of 25. You can check kijiji for sellers, but be sure to check the markets. People, as a rule, are rather greedy and prices are high. You should have a safe place to keep your coins or bars. Most house insurance policies limit the value of bullion that they will replace. Walmart has decent deals on fireproof safes from time to time. Or get a fireproof gun safe and throw your bullion in there.

    Selling can be a different ball game. I used kijiji. But I dealt with a lot of idiots and retards. Public places, cash only. I kept my sales to lots of ten ounces. Too much cash can be a hassle. The number one rule of playing the short term metals game is to not be greedy. You must follow the market closely and know exactly what it is worth.

    My story: I purchased many ounces of silver over a few months in the winter of 2009 and spring of 2010. With dollar cost averaging, I had a price of about $22/oz. In the winter of 2010, I sold all my silver over a course of about 5 weeks. A lot of hassle, but I averaged $38/oz. Not bad for a 10 month investment cycle. I entered the market with a clear goal in mind, and I got out while still making a decent profit. I'm out of the market right now because I believe that there is too much movement. There is money to be made, but there is also money to be lost. Best of luck in your investments
    Last edited by JustBen; 05-07-2012 at 11:27 AM.

  3. #3
    The Gunsmithing Moderator blacksmithden's Avatar
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    Here's a cut and past of a blurb I wrote in another forum. It might help some people just getting into the silver game, or who are sitting on the fence.

    There doesn't seem to be a "focused" thread on this, so I thought I'd start one. Given the fact that the collective economic world is 10 ft past the edge of the cliff and the masses just hasn't looked down yet, it might be a good time to share a little knowledge.

    There have been claims of gold going to $3000 - $4000 - $5000 or even more...silver going to $600/oz from it's current low $30/oz. For those who don't think it will happen, I have one word for you. Zimbabwe. Ever see a 100,000,000,000,000 dollar bill ? Here's picture....and guess what....it's worthless.....but at one time, it wasn't.



    Most people will blow me off as being a crack pot, and that's ok. I can fully understand that. We've be conditioned to believe that "it can't happen here". I will never hold it against anyone who chooses to keep believing in the dream. Honestly, I hope I'm wrong.....yes, I really do hope I'm going to have to eat crow for the next 20 years over my belief that the world economy is going to come crashing down, and the only things of any real value will be physical possessions such as food, water, fuel, guns, ammo, property, and precious metals. This won't be the end of the world as we know it, but a lot of people who think they're safe are going to experience HUGE losses in their wealth. We will rebuild from the ashes of the current economy, and the smart ones will have a large head start if they retain at least some of their current wealth.

    Anyway...I don't want to get too far off track here. I want this thread to focus on precious metals (mainly silver)....their possible future....how to acquire them, general discussion of prices, etc.

    Many people don't know how to get their hands on physical silver. It's not as hard as you think. There are actual "dealerships" that sell it. You can also order it online and have it delivered right to your house. There are sometimes ads in local buy and sell papers, and websites......although, at least in my area, almost nobody is privately selling right now. Do a search of your local yellow pages on "bullion" and there should be a few hits.

    You can expect to pay a premium over the "spot" price. The "spot" price is the price that the mine sells it's silver at, at any given moment. Then there are transportation costs, minting costs, dealer profit, etc to take into account.

    In my area, to buy "over the counter" silver, I typically have to pay a premium of around $4.85/oz over spot price (remember that I'm in Canada). That's for plane jane silver "rounds". They aren't recognized as a government issued currency, so they're not coins. They're just stamped out .999% pure silver. The most common size is 1 ounce, although, there's every size under the sun available. There are also silver bars available.

    Actual government issued coins will have a dollar value stamped on the front of them, but the stamped value means nothing. The weight is what counts. They are typically more "recognized" as having value, so they're a little more...I think my dealer is charging $1.30/oz more for Canadian "Maple Leafs" over the price of silver "rounds". I usually don't buy these, because it's the weight I'm after, not the "pretty factor". The fancier and prettier your bullion is, the higher the premium you're going to pay over spot price.

    The other thing I should mention is that my dealer will buy back ANY silver bullion at spot price, for cash. They make their money when you buy. As time goes on, I think you'll see more and more "will pay cash for silver" places popping up. It's up to you if you want to declare your profits (if any) on your income tax. If you pay cash for your bullion....once you've walked out the door, it's pretty much untraceable. In reality, it's no different from buying and selling any other commodity at that point. You could sell your neighbor a silver round just as easily as a used lawnmower.

    Here's your first website. This is the one we all go to for our up to the minute, 24 hrs a day spot price on silver. http://www.kitco.com/charts/livesilver.html

    Here's a website where you can get prices on actual bullion. They will typically sell a little cheaper than a local dealer, but you have to factor in shipping. Ordering one silver round from them will be more expensive than your local dealer. Ordering 20 rounds will be cheaper. There are many more that you can find with a simple internet search.

    www.silvergoldbull.com

    Anyway, I hope that this have given you a starting point. I honestly think that time is short to get some physical silver in your inventory. The price has been artificially suppressed for quite a few years now. Anyone who knows anything about how the silver game is played can tell you that. I think that once Europe starts to crash, the price is going to actually stay low for a while, but not THAT long. I really can't see any way that Europe is going to survive as it is now, until the end of 2012...and I think the reckoning is going to come a lot sooner than that.

    Scared people will be flocking to the U.S. dollar for safety. That's going to prop up the currency for a while, but it won't last. The U.S. is not immune to what happens in Europe, and I really think that the government is just biding it's time before devaluing the U.S. dollar to decrease it's debt load. As we've seen in the past months, they have no problem freezing, and redistributing peoples investments, leaving them with nothing. Paper and electronic "investments" can become worthless with a phone call from the right person. Physical silver (and gold) that are IN YOUR HAND....IN YOUR POSSESSION can't be stolen from you as easily. Keep stacking your physical silver, and I really feel that you'll be a lot better off than anyone who remains in paper investments.

    Please, feel free to add any knowledge and thoughts you have on the silver market...ask questions...whatever. I'm not what you'd call an expert by ANY means. I've only been in the silver game myself for about 10 months. I've learned a lot, and still have lots to learn. I'll do my best to share what I know.

    If you watch nothing else today, watch this - it's a half hour long, and worth every second. If you don't really understand what's happening in the world, this might clear it up for you.



    Cheers, and stay safe.

    Blacksmithden.

  4. #4
    Senior Member Redhouse's Avatar
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    Just one small clarification...when you sell your coins or bullion to a dealer, he does take down all your personal info and the government is advised. It doesn't generate a tax form, like a T4, because there is no record of what you paid for it in the first place. But the government most definitely has a record of the transaction (only when you sell, NOT when you buy) and, if you don't report profits on your taxes, they do have a way to come back at you later. My understanding is that if you don't have proof of your original purchase price, they can be quite draconian in their assessment of your profit - hey, that's what they do. Profits from trading coins and bullion are most definitely taxable.

  5. #5
    The Gunsmithing Moderator blacksmithden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redhouse View Post
    Just one small clarification...when you sell your coins or bullion to a dealer, he does take down all your personal info and the government is advised. It doesn't generate a tax form, like a T4, because there is no record of what you paid for it in the first place. But the government most definitely has a record of the transaction (only when you sell, NOT when you buy) and, if you don't report profits on your taxes, they do have a way to come back at you later. My understanding is that if you don't have proof of your original purchase price, they can be quite draconian in their assessment of your profit - hey, that's what they do. Profits from trading coins and bullion are most definitely taxable.
    ....and advertising that you're "selling at spot price" generates quick responses on Kijiji.

  6. #6
    The Gunsmithing Moderator blacksmithden's Avatar
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    Ok...what the heck has been going on in the silver market over the past few days ? The chart looks like somebody plugged it into an erratic AC voltage source. It hasn't been making any real big swings of a buck or two, but talk about saw tooth action.
    GOC moderator
    Dealer/co-founder/co-owner of Tundra Supply Ltd.
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    The High River Gun Grab - NEVER FORGET !!!!
    Feb 26 2014 - Swiss Arms prohibition and ordered confiscation by the RCMP - NEVER FORGET !!!!!

  7. #7
    Senior Member Drache's Avatar
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    blah just need a little insider trading in a silver or gold mine

  8. #8
    Senior Member Redhouse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blacksmithden View Post
    Ok...what the heck has been going on in the silver market over the past few days ? The chart looks like somebody plugged it into an erratic AC voltage source. It hasn't been making any real big swings of a buck or two, but talk about saw tooth action.
    Dunno. As you've probably heard, the stock markets have taken a BIG leg down. Gold (and ergo silver) was expected to follow, and still (might? should?) put in a further correction of its own. Magic 8 Ball says, who freakin knows. I thought silver would have been well under $30 in this atmosphere.
    What? I can have a SIGNATURE?

  9. #9
    The Gunsmithing Moderator blacksmithden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redhouse View Post
    Dunno. As you've probably heard, the stock markets have taken a BIG leg down. Gold (and ergo silver) was expected to follow, and still (might? should?) put in a further correction of its own. Magic 8 Ball says, who freakin knows. I thought silver would have been well under $30 in this atmosphere.
    Yea...I figured we'd be in the 20's by now too. Up is down, down is up...cat's are loving dogs. The world just doesn't make any sense sometimes. The silver market is about as predictable as throwing darts over your shoulder in a hurricane.
    GOC moderator
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    The High River Gun Grab - NEVER FORGET !!!!
    Feb 26 2014 - Swiss Arms prohibition and ordered confiscation by the RCMP - NEVER FORGET !!!!!

  10. #10
    Owner - Tundra Supply jonanddad's Avatar
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    Not sure about the authenticity of this

    http://silverdoctors.blogspot.de/201...d-bar.html?m=1

    Tungsten Filled 1 kilo Gold Bar Discovered in UK




    In the biggest news we've broke since the JP Morgan whistle-blower stepped forward,
    Australian Bullion Dealer ABC Bullion has contacted SD to advise that one of its suppliers has provided themphotographic evidence of a tungsten filled 1 kilo gold bar discovered this week. The bar passed a hand-held xrf scan which showed 99.98% pure AU. The tungsten was only discovered when the bar was physically cut in half.
    After numerous reports of 400oz tungsten filled bars being discovered in Hong Kong, this is the first documented and verified report with photographic evidence that has been made public.



    Submitted by Australian Bullion Dealer ABC Bullion:

    Attached are photographs of a legitimate Metalor 1000gm Au bar that has been drilled out and filled with Tungsten (W).
    This bar was purchased by staff of a scrap dealer in xxxxx, UK yesterday. The bar appeared to be perfect other than the fact that it was 2gms underweight. It was checked by hand-held xrf and showed 99.98% Au. Being Tungsten, it would not be ferro-magnetic. The bar was supplied with the original certificate.
    The owner of the business that purchased the bar only became suspicious when he realized the weight discrepancy and had the bar cropped. He estimates between 30-40% of the weight of the bar to be Tungsten.





    The two halves of the cut bar


    Now that we have confirmed documentation that 1 kilo gold bars have been drilled out and filled with tungsten, look for a rapid scramble to verify the AU contents of 400oz bars which reportedly have also been tainted with tungsten (the market is 'stuffed full' of gold plated tungsten 400oz bars according to Rob Kirby).

    For those unfamiliar with the original reports that 60 metric tonnes of 400oz 'good delivery' bars were gutted and filled with tungsten, and swapped with US Treasury gold at Fort Knox in a highly sophisticated plan, an excerpt of his 2009 piece is included below:

    The amount of “salted tungsten” gold bars in question was allegedly between 5,600 and 5,700 – 400 oz – good delivery bars [roughly 60 metric tonnes].
    This was apparently all highly orchestrated by an extremely well financed criminal operation.
    Within mere hours of this scam being identified – Chinese officials had many of the perpetrators in custody.
    And here’s what the Chinese allegedly uncovered:
    Roughly 15 years ago – during the Clinton Administration [think Robert Rubin, Sir Alan Greenspan and Lawrence Summers] – between 1.3 and 1.5 million 400 oz tungsten blanks were allegedly manufactured by a very high-end, sophisticated refiner in the USA [more than 16 Thousand metric tonnes]. Subsequently, 640,000 of these tungsten blanks received their gold plating and WERE shipped to Ft. Knox and remain there to this day. I know folks who have copies of the original shipping docs with dates and exact weights of “tungsten” bars shipped to Ft. Knox.

    The balance of this 1.3 million – 1.5 million 400 oz tungsten cache was also plated and then allegedly “sold” into the international market.
    Apparently, the global market is literally “stuffed full of 400 oz salted bars”.
    Makes one wonder if the Indians were smart enough to assay their 200 tonne haul from the IMF?
    Read the rest of Rob Kirby's 2009 Tungsten Filled Fake Gold Bars Warning here:

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