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  1. #21
    EM Precision Rifles stevesummit's Avatar
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    The problem of the young guys not knowing any different are here already Den that the real sad part of this !! To many don't know what an ounce of firearms freedom is !!

  2. #22
    Shotgun, rifle and a 4 wheel drive! BrotherRockeye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blacksmithden
    One thing I'm certain of. We need to get rid of C-68 before all of us old farts that remember a time before the liberal witch hunt, are gone, and all the new shooters just accept that it's always been the way it is now and roll over.
    Jeez Den, that is an ominous truth...
    We're kin cuz we shoot! What we shoot, and what we shoot at, shouldn't matter!

    "The worst an honest man can do is make an honest mistake" ~ Augustus McCrae
    There is no Justice...SUNRAY Lives

  3. #23
    The Gunsmithing Moderator blacksmithden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stevesummit View Post
    The problem of the young guys not knowing any different are here already Den that the real sad part of this !! To many don't know what an ounce of firearms freedom is !!
    Firearms freedom to me is this. First, my dad and my grandfather teaching me how to handle them safely....not some government sanctioned firearms instructor. I grew up right on the edge of a small town in northern Ontario. At the age of 10 or so, at lease 2 nights a week after school through out the fall, grabbing dad's 12 gauge out of the not locked closest, walking down a public road to my favorite trail into the bush, hunting grouse and ducks until dark....then coming home with whatever I got. Saturdays were spent walking/hunting the 7 miles of railway tracks from my grandfathers house into town. Everybody knew everybody, including the local cops. There were zero problems.

    Then....and I remember this as clear as day, one of the town cops pulled up beside me as I was walking down the road with dad's 1200 Winchester pump action over my shoulder. I was 12 years old. He'd seen me hunting many times before, and never said a word. He got out of the car and said "Den...does your dad know you have his gun out ?" I said "No Buck...he's at work". I thought to myself that him even talking to me was strange. He said "I think you'd better take it home until he can come out with you." I was a bit ticked off, and he saw that. Then he did what grown ups did back then...he gave me "that" look...the look grown ups gave kids and the kids knew that the next words out of their mouths had better be "yes sir" or "ok". I begrudgingly went home. THAT was the day the witch hunt started for me and our freedom started skidding off into the ditch.

    The thing that really breaks my heart is my son. At 13, if he was seen today, doing what I took for granted then, and he didn't drop the gun fast enough, there is a very high probability that he would be killed by a police officer. We, our government, and our police forces, have robbed our kids of the freedom we had.
    Last edited by blacksmithden; 03-26-2014 at 11:23 PM.
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    The High River Gun Grab - NEVER FORGET !!!!
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  4. #24
    Senior Member Foxer's Avatar
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    The thing that really breaks my heart is my son. At 13, if he was seen today, doing what I took for granted then, and he didn't drop the gun fast enough, there is a very high probability that he would be killed by a police officer. We, our government, and our police forces, have robbed our kids of the freedom we had.
    Yeah, i know. And it was the same for me growing up.

    The reality is tho that this is a different canada and we're not going back to that, and even if we could we would have more problems than we used to because too many parents dont know anything about guns to teach their kids and too many kids don't respect 'that look' anymore, and too many police would feel compelled to pull their gun at the sight of it.

    What we can do is restore as much of that freedom as our current reality allows, and maybe one day in the future we'll get back to that more simple concept. We have a lot of room for improvement even if we can't rewind the clock all the way, and sometimes all you can do is build what you can for the future and pass it along for them to improve after we've gone on. To them, from failing hands we'll throw the torch.

    Your son may not have the freedoms we did, but with hard work we can get pretty close, and his son may be able to enjoy even more. Have faith

    But - as i say, we sure as heck can improve a lot today and that's where our focus will have to be. If we can knock back even 70-80 percent of the laws effect on gun owners i'd say our generation redeemed itself and set the next one up for even more.

  5. #25
    Senior Member Waterloomike's Avatar
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    We, our government, and our police forces, have robbed our kids of the freedom we had.
    Agreed. And the only way to get it back is to take it back.

    I disagree with foxer's assessment that we will have more problems.

    How many more can we have than we have now?

    You shot grouse with a 12 gauge?


    Allow our Rightful Liberty or .....

  6. #26
    Senior Member stevebc's Avatar
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    I think Breitkreuz doesn't get it, because the Harper Conservatives don't get it.
    They really seem to think that diddling about on the reclassifications is all that's needed.

    No vote from me until there's a new FA.

  7. #27
    Senior Member Foxer's Avatar
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    I disagree with foxer's assessment that we will have more problems.

    How many more can we have than we have now?
    A lot. The fact is we don't have much of a "gun problem" in Canada right now. Most shootings are gangs (which isn't affected by what we're talking about) or suicides (which also really isn't affected by what we're talking about, as we know people determined to kill themselves will usually find a way).

    The number of accidents we have from lawfully owned firearms is tiny. The number of lawful gun owners who kill people with guns is almost zero. The number of accidents with kids finding guns and shooting themselves with lawfully owned firearms is very small and almost always involves a breech of the storage laws.

    It could be much much much much worse - right now despite having more guns in country than ever before in history we've got the lowest rate of problems with lawfully owned guns than we've ever had.

    The thing of it is - we could scrap about 80 percent of our gun laws (or more) and still have the same result.

    You shot grouse with a 12 gauge?
    Well - 16 gauge mostly It was my Grandad's first shotgun when he was a boy and I've always enjoyed hunting with it. but sure, sometimes with a 12. Or a .22 if we were just zapping 'em for lunch while we were deer/moose hunting. Why did you bring that up? (Actually, how did you know, i didn't mention that in the original post)

    You shot grouse with a 12 gauge?

  8. #28
    Senior Member Foxer's Avatar
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    I think Breitkreuz doesn't get it, because the Harper Conservatives don't get it.
    They really seem to think that diddling about on the reclassifications is all that's needed.
    Really? Breitkreuz 'doesn't get it'? after all the fights that guy's been in for us, you're going with gary doesn't understand firearms and firearms law issues?
    Wow.
    No vote from me until there's a new FA.
    Justin Trudeau appreciates your support.

  9. #29
    Senior Member Waterloomike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Foxer View Post
    A lot. The fact is we don't have much of a "gun problem" in Canada right now. Most shootings are gangs (which isn't affected by what we're talking about) or suicides (which also really isn't affected by what we're talking about, as we know people determined to kill themselves will usually find a way).

    The number of accidents we have from lawfully owned firearms is tiny. The number of lawful gun owners who kill people with guns is almost zero. The number of accidents with kids finding guns and shooting themselves with lawfully owned firearms is very small and almost always involves a breech of the storage laws.

    It could be much much much much worse - right now despite having more guns in country than ever before in history we've got the lowest rate of problems with lawfully owned guns than we've ever had.

    The thing of it is - we could scrap about 80 percent of our gun laws (or more) and still have the same result.



    Well - 16 gauge mostly It was my Grandad's first shotgun when he was a boy and I've always enjoyed hunting with it. but sure, sometimes with a 12. Or a .22 if we were just zapping 'em for lunch while we were deer/moose hunting. Why did you bring that up? (Actually, how did you know, i didn't mention that in the original post)

    You shot grouse with a 12 gauge?
    The 12 gauge question was at BSD. I've used a .410 and picked out buckshot. so I went to a .22.

    We might see a spike in accidents, but it would be short lived. And if it went from where it is, back to where it was, it would be a much shorter time to educate than waiting on government and well intentioned bubble wrapping.

    You're attributing the low gun crime to the gun laws aimed specifically at law abiding gun owners and there is no proven correlation.

    I do agree that we could easily scrap 80% of the laws or more and have no problem at all. which would prove that the laws didn't really have any effect.


    Allow our Rightful Liberty or .....

  10. #30
    Senior Member Foxer's Avatar
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    The 12 gauge question was at BSD. I've used a .410 and picked out buckshot. so I went to a .22.
    Ahh

    We might see a spike in accidents, but it would be short lived.
    You mean all the incompetent people would kill themselves off early on? Unfortunately it wouldn't be short lived. The fact is when we were kids parents mostly knew about guns. My mom was a great shot, my dad a hunter, my friends mostly had parents who either did or had used firearms. Parents taught their kids and that was that. But today - the vast majority of people getting into the sport have very limited childhood training, and a large number come from families with no history or tradition of firearms use. It's a different world.

    And if it went from where it is, back to where it was, it would be a much shorter time to educate than waiting on government and well intentioned bubble wrapping.
    If it went from where it is to where it was, the antis' would use it to pass laws as bad as what we have or worse. But - if what you mean is that we could educate people without quite the same rigamarole we have now, then sure. As I said - most of our laws could be dumped without changing the result. Or simplified dramatically. So - we could have way fewer laws and much more simple ones, but i think going back to the late 60's is probably not practical for several reasons.

    You're attributing the low gun crime to the gun laws aimed specifically at law abiding gun owners and there is no proven correlation.
    Hey now - be fair and read what I said. I SPECIFICALLY said that gun crimes and the number of suicides are NOT impacted by what we're talking about here. Your statement is entirely unfair.

    I do agree that we could easily scrap 80% of the laws or more and have no problem at all. which would prove that the laws didn't really have any effect.
    80 - 90 percent of our laws (depending on how you measure 'percent' of a law ) Do NOT really have any effect. We know that. In fact - there are research studies to show that they don't.

    Which is why I say we could scrap 80-90 percent and not notice any real difference. Does ANYONE who has knowledge of firearms believe for one second that an ATT somehow prevents accidents or crime? That a person willing to kill will say "hold on, i don't have an ATT to take my gun to the murder scene"? It changes nothing - scrapping att's would have ZERO impact on crime or accidents. Any sane person could see that. Is it even possible to make an argument that somehow if we allowed hunting with an ar-15 for size appropriate animals (yotes, rabbits, gophers whatever) would lead to more injury, crime or death than we have now? I play devils' advocate hard and even I can't make any kind of case for that. Etc etc.

    most of our gun laws are useless. WE could scrap them and notice NO difference at all. And we should. But - it's probably not likely we could go back to pretty much zero gun laws without an impact and then the anti's will eat us for breakfast a second time.

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