Page 1 of 6 12345 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 57
  1. #1
    Senior Member TV-PressPass's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012

    Full RCMP Report on the Swiss Arms

    From my blog:

    Kudos to reddit user Adipose Fin on getting all this!

    Now that a basic amnesty is in place and a new Common Sense Firearms Act is in its infancy, the RCMP have responded to a Freedom of Information Request and published over 200 pages of information relating to their investigation and reclassification of the SAN rifles.

    Both William Etter and Murray A. Smith from the RCMP have documents in the report, which paint a picture of their investigations into the history of SAN and how the initial import of Classic Green rifles happened. There are also details from the request to investigate, although they are marginally redacted.

    The conclusion is quite damning. As we’ve heard before:

    Physical inspection of the sample “genuine” Classic Green rifles and “bogus” Classic Green rifles revealed no significant differences and established both kinds of rifles as following the SG550 design, and not the SG540 design.
    If you’re looking for the full text, complete with historical articles from US publications, internal SAN documents, and an entire distributor catalog, you can find it right here:

    RCMP Full Swiss Arms Classic Green Investigation

  2. #2
    Senior Member Strewth's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Chilliwack BC
    Sooo....a dozen years ago the RCMP firearms lab screwed up?

    At any rate, hopefully irrelevant. Variants and "what if" clauses are smoke and mirrors resulting from murky laws set out by the Liberals that under the surface concentrate on disarmament.

  3. #3
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Page 3 section 8 makes it clear that this whole debacle was caused by a Judas in the firearms community.

  4. #4
    Senior Member Gaidheal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    I can't get the PDF file.

  5. #5
    Senior Member TV-PressPass's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    It's biiiig. Are you getting some kind of error? There was a drop box link floating around too . . . .

  6. #6
    Senior Member RangeBob's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Quote Originally Posted by TV-PressPass View Post
    There was a drop box link floating around too . . . .
    33,985,323 bytes

  7. #7
    Senior Member Gaidheal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Quote Originally Posted by TV-PressPass View Post
    It's biiiig. Are you getting some kind of error? There was a drop box link floating around too . . . .
    The connection was reset

    The connection to the server was reset while the page was loading.

    The site could be temporarily unavailable or too busy. Try again in a few
    If you are unable to load any pages, check your computer's network
    If your computer or network is protected by a firewall or proxy, make sure
    that Firefox is permitted to access the Web.

    Got the dropbox one.


  8. #8
    Senior Member CSC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    In light of what has been said by JR in the past this is quite damning. Note that the investigation was not only initiated but directed and that the allegations were "selling of prohibited firearms", yet JR claimed he never accused CSC of anything illegal.
    Note also that one of the "real" rifles submitted as a control sample by JR had an auto sear slot cut, and the "bogus" one was a purpose built semi auto, yet JR accused CSC of selling "old ex military guns".
    There are reams of documents including SAN production diagrams that make it quite clear that all Classic Green rifles are PE 90s, and of course page 45 neatly disposes of the "magic mandrel" theory that was going to vindicate JR.

    Dear GOC members: I write to respond to the allegations leveled by CSC against TSE.

    What happened?

    In early 2013 an individual walked into TSE with a rifle that appeared to the experienced eye to be either a counterfeit of the Swiss Arms “classic green”, or possibly a converted prohibited rifle.
    CGN members and Swiss Arms’ owners should know that later, at IWA 2013, a Swiss Arms employee stated an owner of one of TSE’s competitors was going around Switzerland buying up rifles at auction and from ex-service members, bringing them into Swiss Arms’ factory in “batches” to be refurbished. The CEO of Swiss Arms was present at this meeting, and stated he had no knowledge of this.

    Our inspection of the rifle brought to our store supported what Swiss Arms told us.

    With the knowledge of these facts, the spectre was raised that Canadians may have unknowingly purchased rifles that were or are prohibited - no responsible firearms retailer could avoid contacting the RCMP, who we are sure, will clarify what the complete facts are and what is relevant.

    Why was it suspected to be counterfeit or converted?

    1) The 4 digit serial number was wrong for a ‘civilian’ firearm;
    2) Furniture colour and texture predated anything known for retail/commercial sale
    3) There was no Swiss Arms factory marking;
    4) There was no commercial production marking;
    5) It was missing the internal parts added to retail/commercial rifles to further prevent C/A conversions;
    6) The Upper and lower very mismatched colours, indicating either re-working, or a change-out with another rifle; and
    7) The spacing of the serial numbers was too large.

    Basically, any experienced owner would see this was a VERY old rifle, that it appeared someone refinished the upper, and changed the serial number and name. It doesn’t matter why this was done – it looked like a Classic Green civilian accessible firearm, but may have not been intended for use in Canada.

    Swiss Arms’ Practices

    As a responsible gun owner and retailer, we question the soundness of Swiss Arms’ practice, but recognized Swiss Arms doesn’t “control the commercial market” in Canada. Ultimately, given the RCMP were already aware of this issue, Swiss Arms should re-think its policy, but it is not up to TSE to control imports into Canada – that is the RCMP’s and Border Control’s job. But TSE would not stand by watching Canadians inadvertently purchase rifles that may turn out later to be inappropriate for import.

    Swiss Arms’ policy raises questions, and we believe Canadians are entitled to answers:

    1) If the rifles are otherwise acceptable under Canadian law, why change serial numbers?
    2) If the rifles are acceptable, why change the name / designation?
    3) If the rifles are acceptable for sale in Canada, why were other importers not offered these firearms?

    The Real Issue

    In my opinion as a gun retailer with many years’ experience, CSC’s concerns are misplaced: the whole issue of whether it is “C/A or not” is a red herring. The RCMP will quickly sort this out so it is not of primary concern. Moreover, these receivers are not easy to convert. There have simply been production changes over the years that make the internals look a bit different.

    The real issue comes down to the lineage of the rifles, and all Swiss Arms owners should be concerned with the possibility that old PE90s and old issued, demilled military rifles may have been brought into Canada inappropriately, or without the knowledge of their true lineage. Potentially, this could screw up the ability of everyone to enjoy the actual Classic Greens.

    The Calgary Shooting Centre claims this is just a misunderstanding. TSE is glad to hear there is an explanation, and is confident our competitors are cooperating with the RCMP.
    Ultimately, the RCMP will determine whether there is any responsibility for any incorrect import or sale of firearms, and if so where that responsibility lies. TSE has no role in the investigation.
    CSC claims TSE has acted wrongly, and has accused CSC of acting illegally. To be perfectly crystal clear, our understanding is that no Swiss laws were broken by anyone doing any of these things. Further, TSE has no information that CSC has broken any laws, nor has TSE ever accused CSC of doing so.
    All that has happened is TSE has reported to the RCMP that certain firearms of questionable legitimacy are in Canada posing as Classic Greens, and re-finishing used military firearms for the purpose of importing them into Canada.
    At the end of the day, Swiss Arms stands by their decision to sell the rifles in Canada. They have done so, however, without full regard for purchasers in the Canadian market. Purely as opinion, TSE suggests Swiss Arms has in effect thrown the Canadian market under the bus (probably inadvertently) by stating the refinished rifles are “mechanically identical” to civilian accessible rifles.

    It is for this reason, and due to Swiss Arms’ comments, we believe, that the RCMP is concerned with the entire lineage of these rifles.

    What happens now?

    At present, TSE is trying to show the RCMP there is no real harm from the non-prohibited line of rifles. While the RCMP may have recently become aware of new facts due to TSE’s being a good corporate citizen, it is Swiss Arms’ comments that gave rise to the RCMP’s scrutiny over the larger class of rifles.

    Further, the RCMP previously obtained an SG540 and SG542 and were in the process of looking at the SAPR. So, their scrutiny over the Swiss Arms’ products wasn’t due to TSE’s report alone.
    In a nutshell, the facts are that an organization bought old rifles that may be prohibited, renamed them, changed the history and serial numbers and then allowed them to be brought into Canada to sell as “Classic Green” civilian accessible firearms.

    In our opinion, TSE did the right thing to prevent further crackdowns by the RCMP and further pressure against owners and importers of foreign rifles; if a foreign company has acted to make the RCMP scrutinize a larger class of rifles more closely, that is the RCMP’s prerogative and the foreign company’s issue

    To further complicate this, the RCMP, in order to investigate the SAPR, rounded up an SG540 and SG542 and were in the process of looking at the SAPR.
    The RCMP firearms officials stated during a conversation at CANSEC that now they possessed an example of the SG540, they were looking at the entire SAN family as the rifles had never been inspected at the time the FRT was issued. This was just another file on the pile, but this investigation pushed it to the forefront.

    Yes, the issue is a mess. While CSC is trying to spin this as a gaffe resulting from blind hatred of CSC, the facts don’t support that. What remains the truth is that the concerns of all Swiss Arms’ owners were and still are legitimate. TSE stands by as a corporate citizen willing to assist gun-owners and the authorities for a resolution of this issue.

    And to be sure more information will soon be released which will further clarify what actually happened.
    Last edited by CSC; 08-07-2014 at 02:46 PM.

  9. #9
    Senior Member bettercallsaul's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Niagara Falls
    The bottom line to me is that the RCMP has no business legislating by fiat whatever they deem "too dangerous" for us pleebs to own, it's their job to enforce it. The politicians legislate.
    Last edited by bettercallsaul; 08-06-2014 at 02:16 PM.

  10. #10
    Senior Member Foxer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    The politicians legislate.
    True, but someone has to interpret the legislation and that's where we run into problems.

Page 1 of 6 12345 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 80
    Last Post: 05-09-2014, 08:15 PM
  2. Replies: 45
    Last Post: 03-03-2014, 11:48 AM
  3. Ottawa to review RCMP decision to prohibit Swiss Arms rifle - fairly positive article
    By Foxer in forum Canadian Firearms News, Headlines and Polls
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 03-01-2014, 01:37 AM
  4. Replies: 8
    Last Post: 02-27-2014, 02:58 PM
  5. Sun News - Gun owners fight back at RCMP order - Swiss Arms
    By jwirecom109 in forum Canadian Firearms News, Headlines and Polls
    Replies: 12
    Last Post: 06-19-2013, 12:02 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts