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  1. #31
    Senior Member Petamocto's Avatar
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    Okay, for all of you guys worried about the extemely short range, here is the ground truth:
    1: If something is seriously 10-20m away and you can't hit it with an AR without any optics whatsoever, you fail at firearms and you fail at life. Real threats aren't 1 MOA. Real threats move and you can instinctually hit them if they're in front of you.
    2: Even if the target is in the 50-75 range, you can still have a magnified optic while still having a set of 45 degree angle backup iron sights that are accessed with a simple left canr of the rifle.

    Whatever you think you can hit on a range with iron sights or a red dot from 200m, you can forget that in a hurry if you're in a real life/death situation. A 3-4x magnification optic is the only real way to have a reasonable chance of real world accuracy in the 200-300 range band.

    If you think you can realistically pull off 1x iron sight or red dot hits against moving human targets when it counts, congratulations on being the first person in the world to achieve that standard with a pulse of 200.
    Last edited by Petamocto; 02-13-2015 at 05:55 AM.

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  3. #32
    Always against the grain Booletsnotreactwell's Avatar
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    You've brought up a good point. Even without sights at all you should be able to hit targets 25-30m away. It's called quick fire and there is a specific section on it in one of the U.S. Army training manuals.

    Very few people practice this as it would almost appear at first to be a waste of ammo, some ranges might have guys call you out if they see one or two of your misses strike a berm when practicing this. In reality this a very important thing to practice if you want to be effective with a rifle.


    I'm still not sold on a x4 fixed being the be all end all. Then again I have zero real world commando experience so take what I'm about to say with a grain.


    I think it all depends on the environment. Current theater of operations for guys doing this stuff in the real world is Afghanistan. I bet it's pretty likely that engagements there happen in the 200-300m band.


    In Iraq a couple years ago it was very common to see whole platoons with guys running mostly EOTech and Aimpoint M68's 1x as there primary and only optic. In fact a lot of guys said that typical engagements were less then 100m and that everything before that was simply maneuvering and suppressing to get into position so they could get into the sub 100m band.


    The inner conspiracy theorist in me also has a theory on why x4 sights became standard issue. We see time and time again articles about budget cuts and money going to fancy high tech toys and the boots on the ground whether LEO or Soldiers getting minimal range time. Since the implementation of magnified optics (Mostly ACOG & Elcan) marksmanship scores have gone up... Shooting minute of man at 300m at 1x takes a couple thousand rounds of practice. Shooting the same with a magnified optic takes a few hundred.


    To be fair pretty much every major conflict where armies were up against army's that could equally hold there own were fought with guys using irons.


    So take what you want from that. Like I said no real world experience here, just some theoretical perspective.

  4. #33
    Senior Member 3MTA3's Avatar
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    Hmmm, sorry can't totally agree with that-
    the taliban dude was using a Enfield 4 mk1 I think.



    1x on top
    "So much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot.." - George Orwell
    "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."-William Pitt the younger
    FTrudeau

  5. #34
    Senior Member harbl_the_cat's Avatar
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    On the one hand, I do notice a big difference in how fast I can acquire a sight picture with a 1x, on the other hand I feel quite gimped at 200 without magnification.

    Wit run-n-gun, I see Herc's point. There's less stress shooting paper or steels - but more thinking, since paper especially doesn't react when you've put 2 rounds into it.
    rli
    Also, if you're shooting an IPSC or IDPA target, if you don't land a precise hit in certain zones, (roughly centre of mass, if abstracted to a small framed, human torso) you are severely penalized, whereas in real life I'm assuming a hit in the charlie/delta or -1/-3 zone would have the desired effect of incapacitating the target.

    I've seen IDPA matches in a three way tie for second by 1/10th of a second - I forgot how much a single penalty is for -1 in IDPA, b.

  6. #35
    Senior Member hercster's Avatar
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    My applications are strictly competition and reasonable to good accuracy is required. All of the competitive shooters I know use a 1x dot option of some sort except for those on irons and they are few. Even if the targets are close, most people can't just point and shoot. Many targets will call for a head shot which is roughly 6 x6 if a full sized target is used but 1/3 and 2/3 sizes are used too. Often these targets are protected by "no shoots / non threats and so you can't spray and pray as the penalties for a "no shoot" can zero an entire stage. Some use a scope and an angled set of irons for the close work.

    My ticker does move up a tad but I'm talking a game that rewards speed and accuracy. I've never said that 1X should be your only option but rather that it should be an option. What the skilled guys here do is adjust their variables when they take a sight picture so that the dot is about half the size of the distant targets. Over magnification accentuates the bouncing around so that even at 4x I'm not optimal according to my mentors who know what they are talking about. That said, variables of 1-4 or 1-6 are probably the most common in use. Younger and steadier guys than me also use Eotechs and Aimpoints at one 1x exclusively. The various classes of firearms gets you competing with equals from a sight perspective.
    NightHawkCustom Pred II 45, NHC .22 upper, Stag Arms AR 15, Rem. Versa Max Tactical 12 Ga. Tanfoglio Ltd Custom Xtreme, an upgraded Tanfo Ltd Pro, Seraphim 1911 .45 ACP Archangel, Seraphim 9mm Warfighter, SIG P320 FS in 9mm with a .40 conversion and now a SIG P226 Enhanced Elite 9mm.

  7. #36
    Senior Member harbl_the_cat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3MTA3 View Post
    Hmmm, sorry can't totally agree with that-
    the taliban dude was using a Enfield 4 mk1 I think.
    Dang - that's rough.

    Funny, maybe I'm an idealist but I don't think it would be hard to find a Canadian rifleman, be he hunter, sportsman or military (present or former) who would have much trouble effectively engaging infantry at 200 yards.

  8. #37
    Senior Member hercster's Avatar
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    Hitting a "no shoot" under the rules I shoot under here is a 10 point penalty which translates to five seconds. It's not uncommon to have to thread through two protective no shoots for a head shot on a threat. Hits to a COM 8 inch dia and 6 x 6 "head" shots are zero down. In other schemes a zero is one into the COM or head or two on the no penalty area of the paper. Lowest total points wins if your time is decent.You have to be brave, cocky of very good to risk taking one shot targets as you can't see holes on the paper beyond ten yards so most guys double tap paper and take a third for questionables. Then again, an 8 or 10 inch steel at 200 looks very small. So that's why almost all the intermediate and better shooters have some variable option. The problem with my dually setup is that it puts me into "open" with the best guys out there and I become a cellar dweller. Finishing somewhere in the middle is easier on the ego. :-)
    NightHawkCustom Pred II 45, NHC .22 upper, Stag Arms AR 15, Rem. Versa Max Tactical 12 Ga. Tanfoglio Ltd Custom Xtreme, an upgraded Tanfo Ltd Pro, Seraphim 1911 .45 ACP Archangel, Seraphim 9mm Warfighter, SIG P320 FS in 9mm with a .40 conversion and now a SIG P226 Enhanced Elite 9mm.

  9. #38
    Senior Member Petamocto's Avatar
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    Edited an earlier post that said a 1x optic was "dumb". That was the vino talking, but I accept responsibility and I'm sorry.

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  11. #39
    Senior Member Sabio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Booletsnotreactwell View Post

    They simply show up to the range talk to a few guys and make noise for half an hour mindlessly shooting a 300 round group on a sight in target at 50 yards.
    Ya? And whats wrong with that? Am I supposed to go and pretend I am a Commando Zombie Killer?
    Previously- Rivetc78 from CGN

  12. #40
    Moderator kennymo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by harbl_the_cat View Post
    Dang - that's rough.

    Funny, maybe I'm an idealist but I don't think it would be hard to find a Canadian rifleman, be he hunter, sportsman or military (present or former) who would have much trouble effectively engaging infantry at 200 yards.
    Oh, they are not hard to find at all.....usually found in coffee shops across the country around 10 AM talking about the deer they missed out the truck window at four hunnert yards, which when paced out invariably turns into less than 100. Wasn't that Taliban with the Enfield firing from 400 yards ish?

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