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  1. #51
    Resident Combine Pilot JustBen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Petamocto View Post
    You're allowed to respectfully disagree, due to your range experiences.

    Gongs aren't a moving human being, and gongs don't shoot back.
    Fair enough.

  2. #52
    Go Canucks Go! lone-wolf's Avatar
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    Inside 300yrds, you're going to have a 1ft of bullet drop(223) to work with, so using irons and shooting for the top of the target could yield results.
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  3. #53
    Senior Member hercster's Avatar
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    Harb, it's not the perfect solution but you can get IPSC and IDPA in reduced formats. You can do the math but if you have 150 yards and use a half sized or one third target except for bullet drop you are exercising the same skills at least to a degree. I just got home from the big Carbine match of the year here in Corpus. Our longest shots were 170 yards but they were made more difficult in various ways. A common thing is to use a wall with ports at several levels and require shots from multiple ports that have you crouching, kneeling and prone. Today's bonus target was an 8 inch plate partially obscured by weed growth and another was black and partially buried in weeds on the other side. Others were hung very close to non threat plates with heavy penalties for the non threat. Five shots from the wall and then a sprint to a 30 degree ramp for five more prone was tough enough for most guys. To my amazement I actually did well on that stage. If you can arrange it, try buying one or two smaller gongs or those in the IDPA shape but 1/3 the regular size. You can also "black out portions of the standard targets in various ways or bury a target in the middle of several no shoots. With the limited space on many ranges, imagination has to compensate for raw yards.
    NightHawkCustom Pred II 45, NHC .22 upper, Stag Arms AR 15, Rem. Versa Max Tactical 12 Ga. Tanfoglio Ltd Custom Xtreme, an upgraded Tanfo Ltd Pro, Seraphim 1911 .45 ACP Archangel, Seraphim 9mm Warfighter, SIG P320 FS in 9mm with a .40 conversion and now a SIG P226 Enhanced Elite 9mm.

  4. #54
    Senior Member harbl_the_cat's Avatar
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    Well I do have a 10" rectangular plate I should setup sometime...

  5. #55
    Always against the grain Booletsnotreactwell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lone-wolf View Post
    Inside 300yrds, you're going to have a 1ft of bullet drop(223) to work with, so using irons and shooting for the top of the target could yield results.
    If you zero the AR15 carry handle with the way it was meant for. The 25/300m battlesight zero you shouldn't have to do anything from 0-350m except aim for centre of mass. After that you have your preset clicks for 4-800m which will work if you zero'ed right.


    As for magnified optics I find that bellow 100 yards you lose too much peripheral. 100 yards is close for a threat, they could easilly flank you and show up behind you in a flash. With a red dot I can see something as smal as a yard stick pop up in my peripheral. With a dot at that range you could do transitions to multiple targets popping up at random and throw serious ammounts of lead at all of them with great speed. With a magnified optic you would have more precision but less speed and you could lose or miss a target at those close distances.

  6. #56
    Senior Member Petamocto's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Booletsnotreactwell View Post
    ...As for magnified optics I find that bellow 100 yards you lose too much peripheral. 100 yards is close for a threat, they could easilly flank you and show up behind you in a flash.
    You still leave both eyes open with a magnified optic so you can see peripheral targets. We're not talking about a 20x varmint scope where you're suffering from complete tunnel vision, we're talking about 3-4x, so your brain can process the two pictures your eyes are giving it quite easily.

    For any small rapid reaction improvement inside 100 with a red dot compared to a lightly magnified optic, IMO it is far more worth it to be able to his precisely at 200-300 (in a relaxed scenario).

  7. #57
    Senior Member hercster's Avatar
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    I don't know about human targets but I do shoot moving ones regularly but they are on trolley wires and move altogether too fast for this old goat. We had one yesterday at about 50 yards and the RDS was king. The best tactical shooter on my squad is an LEO who teaches shooting for the PD including Patrol Rifle. Virtually everyone uses an RDS and out here they work in both a rural and urban environment. My friend was using an ACOG 4x coupled with a side mounted MRD and he is both accurate and very fast. The LEO's down here in southern Texas see far more in the way of AK's and AR's than their northern cousins. "Truck" guns including military style civilian guns and the occasion FA are what the other team has so the lawmen are very well equipped for battle.

    Clearly range means a lot in the choice. My HAMR and MRD combo worked beautifully for me yesterday. The bonus plate on a short fast stage was an eight inch plate at 170 yards and I banged it despite huffing and puffing from the scooting around. We don't have stages longer than 200 yards but other clubs do right out to 650 yards. So people equip accordingly. I'd be willing to bet that 85% of the competitors of about 150 shooters were using something with a 1X variable. The most common are 1-4 or 6 scopes and either Eotechs or Aimpoints.
    NightHawkCustom Pred II 45, NHC .22 upper, Stag Arms AR 15, Rem. Versa Max Tactical 12 Ga. Tanfoglio Ltd Custom Xtreme, an upgraded Tanfo Ltd Pro, Seraphim 1911 .45 ACP Archangel, Seraphim 9mm Warfighter, SIG P320 FS in 9mm with a .40 conversion and now a SIG P226 Enhanced Elite 9mm.

  8. #58
    Always against the grain Booletsnotreactwell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Petamocto View Post
    You still leave both eyes open with a magnified optic so you can see peripheral targets. We're not talking about a 20x varmint scope where you're suffering from complete tunnel vision, we're talking about 3-4x, so your brain can process the two pictures your eyes are giving it quite easily.

    For any small rapid reaction improvement inside 100 with a red dot compared to a lightly magnified optic, IMO it is far more worth it to be able to his precisely at 200-300 (in a relaxed scenario).
    I'm gonna settle and say once again that it depends on environment. You know maybe you're right in the sense that that's why they issue 3/4x optics as general purpose. You're not ultra high speed at close range or long range but you're not gimped at 100 to 300m either should the opportunity present itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Petamocto View Post
    people rarely stand still and let themselves get shot in a combat environment;

    Even if the target is standing still, establishing a clean sight picture on them is not easy;
    I find that statement kind of goes against what you're trying to say though. Unless were talking specific terrain, for the most part, forest, jungle & urban 200m is long range as hell and going to be extremely hard against a target that is moving, trying to conceal himself and shoot back. Unless the guy is caught in the open, I don't think you will see a target long enough let alone have a realistic opportunity to engage in all three of those elements. Engagements on that type of terrain will be 150 or less meters. There are various U.S. Army reports on engagements in Iraq that confirm that theory and back up the choice to use a Carbine as the primary issue rifle.

  9. #59
    Senior Member Petamocto's Avatar
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    The Army generally goes with the solution that works the best for the most people. Some soldiers may prefer a red dot and shoot better with it, some may prefer a 20x scope.

    I am pretty sure both the US Army and Canadian Army did some homework and elaborate testing before finally deciding on a 3-4x optic as the best general purpose magnification.

    If 1-2x had worked better overall, they would have gone with it. If 5-6x had worked better, they would have gone with it.

    I feel this reality is the most supportive argument I can make when claiming that 3-4x is the best general purpose combat magnification.

  10. #60
    Senior Member 3MTA3's Avatar
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    Why did the US, dust off all those M14's again?

    Canadian soldiers do pretty well on movers at 200m, and on Fig 12's at 500m.
    "So much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot.." - George Orwell
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