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  1. #41
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    It is easy to say strengthened Gun laws made a difference . It is much more difficult to prove when the gun homicides are down all around over the same 20 year period. Many of those laws were actually lifted in that time Ie. the assault weapons ban lifted 10 years ago.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by RangeBob View Post
    ....And after two days of that we go Squirrel! on some other topic in the news, and forum members silently go Oh Thank Goodness.
    Where's that icon of the fat smily rolling on the floor and laughing when you need him! I'll guess I'll just have to do with

    Thank goodness indeed lol!!

  3. #43
    Senior Member Foxer's Avatar
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    The stat is that according to the RCMP, there's no difference in accident rates between POLed and PALed.
    That would be a statistic, not a conclusion.

    The primary difference from a training point of view is that most POLed did not take the CFSC, and the all the PALed did.
    Ahhh - but that is not in evidence. My dad, as i mentioned, took it with us as sort of a 'show of support' and he only has a pol. Never wanted another gun, so he never bothered upgrading. so... pol owner - DID take it.

    And further, the vast majority would have taken it under another name. So - if they took virtually the SAME course but it was CALLED something else ... then for the purposes of discussing safety we can say they took the same course.

    See - this is the kind of lie we catch the anti's in ALL the time. You cannot for a moment claim that the 'primary difference' is that they didn't take the course if they DID take it under another name, unless you're arguing that the NAME of the course doesn't seem to make much difference provided the training is the same. And I'd agree with that - changing the name of the course makes no difference whatsoever to the training.

    You yourself note that they'll have training, and we both know that the training they'd get would be very similar if not identical to the CFSC. You suggest 98 percent probably have, and that's probably not very far off at all.

    So... All the report proves is that it really doesn't matter what you CALL the training - as long as everyone's had it safety is the same. Which is pretty predictable. If I train 10 people and tell them the training is called the CFSC, and I train another 10 and tell them the training is called the 'Super Safe Shooting School', there would likely be no difference in their skills later. Whereas if I take 10 and train them, and take 10 who have never had any training, there WILL be a big difference and I don't care HOW much 'halo' they've played

    But at the end of the day, from a variety of data sources both here and in america we know that training has an effect on accident and death rates. So either way, and call it what you will, it is reasonable and prudent and responsible to demand that people who are going to be in possession of firearms have that basic level of training.

    Now I was all over letting people challenge the exam if they DID get the training elsehwere, and i'm still all over the idea of allowing the same course taught under the label of 'hunter's ed' (or 'range training' if they do that) be allowed as an 'equivilant'. It's the same training as far as I can tell (around here anyway) and we've already established that changing the name doesn't affect how effective it is.

    But - EVERYONE who has guns should take it under one name or another.

  4. #44
    Senior Member Foxer's Avatar
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    I note that both of us, when taking new shooters out, spend a couple hours training them first.
    Neither of us have a 'if they feel like it' policy.
    You wrote that HowToTrainFirstTimeShootersWithoutGettingShot.pdf document (my latest copy says copyright 2014 Warren Wall),
    and I wrote the FirearmIntroductionNewbie prior to my first newbie.

    You asserted that your HowToTrainFirstTimeShootersWithoutGettingShot.pdf is better.
    Hold on - First, i've never even READ your firearms intro to newbies - i didn't even know you'd written one - so I certainly have NOT asserted mine is better in the slightest

    And second off - if you re-read mine right at the start it says clearly - This is for EXPERIENCED shooters to help them take out first timers, it is NOT a training document for first time shooters, it does not speed up that process, it does not replace that process at all. It's JUST to help take out someone who's never shot safely and enjoyably, and not get killed doing it. It is NOT a training document for first time shooters and in fact it says that you CAN'T train them on their first time out so focus on the basics and be there to be their eyes and ears to make sure they don't make a mistake.


    John Lott did say that violent crime goes down if you remove delays, such as training. You usually counter that it's your right not to have a moron wandering around public streets. I counter about a woman being able to defend herself in her home, without being armed on the street, and perhaps possession should be possible before mandatory training within the year. You counter that bullets go through neighbour's house walls, and you have a right not to be affected. I counter with stats estimating how often bullets to through walls vs Lott's estimates of lives/injuries saved. And after two days of that we go Squirrel! on some other topic in the news, and forum members silently go Oh Thank Goodness.
    Whle i'm sure the last part is true, nobody in Canada is 'dying' because they had to take a safety training course.

  5. #45
    Canadian ForcesOgre Haywire1's Avatar
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    Final warning. Get back on topic.
    in pace, ut sapiens, aptarit idonea bello
    - In peace, like a wise man, he appropriately prepares for war

  6. #46
    Pirate King Edward Teach's Avatar
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    So, would this study rate about the same as the Kellerman study as far as credibility goes? I believe yes.

    (Is that back on topic?)
    Know what the chain of command is? It's the chain I go get and beat you with 'til you understand who's in ruttin command here.

  7. #47
    Moderator kennymo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edward Teach View Post
    So, would this study rate about the same as the Kellerman study as far as credibility goes? I believe yes.

    (Is that back on topic?)
    Not quite, the author hasn't publicly admitted it's total BS yet...

  8. #48
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    I agree with everything stated, but it's an important reminder that we need to follow the basics of gun safety.

  9. #49
    Senior Member spider69's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rugerfan View Post
    I agree with everything stated, but it's an important reminder that we need to follow the basics of gun safety.
    First post? Welcome to the forum. Before commenting,you need to check the post dates. This is what we call a "necro thread". It's over 5 years old. A lot of water has gone under the ol' bridge since then.
    You'll make better progress if you get out of your own way.

  10. #50
    Pirate King Edward Teach's Avatar
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    Reading this, now I remember why somebody's on my ignore list!
    Know what the chain of command is? It's the chain I go get and beat you with 'til you understand who's in ruttin command here.

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