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  1. #1
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    NATO response to Paris attacks would not require Canada to act

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/paris-a...le-5-1.3327041
    NATO response to Paris attacks would not require Canada to act
    Treaty states attack on 1 member is considered an attack on all

    By Mark Gollom, CBC News Posted: Nov 22, 2015 5:00 AM ET Last Updated: Nov 22, 2015 5:00 AM ET

    If Prime Minister Justin Trudeau is still set on withdrawing the CF-18s currently involved in the air bombing mission against ISIS in Iraq and Syria, Canada's obligations to NATO would have no bearing on his decision. If Prime Minister Justin Trudeau is still set on withdrawing the CF-18s currently involved in the air bombing mission against ISIS in Iraq and Syria, Canada's obligations to NATO would have no bearing on his decision.

    Kenney was referring to an article of the 1949 North Atlantic Treaty, which formed the foundation of the North American and European alliance.

    According to Article 5, an attack on one NATO member is considered an attack against them all. And it calls on the alliance members to assist the attacked country by taking "such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force."

    "If Article 5 is invoked, it actually formally does not require Canada to do anything," said Stephen Saideman, the Paterson Chair in International Affairs at Carleton University. "Canada can choose to do as little or as much as it wants."

    "What it means ultimately is that Article 5 requires nothing from anybody. Every country can react as they see fit. Countries don't have to participate."

    'A clarion call'

    So if Trudeau is still set on withdrawing the CF-18s currently involved in the air bombing mission against ISIS in Iraq and Syria, Canada's obligations to NATO would have no bearing on his decision.

    "Article 5 is a clarion call to draw attention and confirm solidarity, while the actual response might be much more uneven as a result of negotiation among NATO members," said Robert Baines, a corporate development officer for the NATO Association of Canada.

    "While Canada would not be obligated to take any specific action, there would be larger considerations of international relations with our NATO allies, and I'm sure we'd have to make some meaningful contributions to an Article 5 response," said Baines.

    NATO is not just a military alliance, but also a political and diplomatic one, Baines said. Country representatives meet regularly in order to confirm support for their particular positions.

    NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg, from Norway, right, is greeted by French President François Hollande prior to their meeting at the Elysée Palace in Paris in March 2015. (Remy de la Mauviniere/Associated Press)

    "Canada would be under a certain amount of pressure to participate meaningfully in a response to the attack, but there is no compulsion regarding how we respond."

    Whether Article 5 will be invoked is still an open question. The only time it has been used is after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks.

    France would first have to request an Article 4 consultation. And it would be the North Atlantic Council, after consultations with representatives of the 28-member alliance, that would decide whether to invoke Article 5.

    "Many bilateral and joint meetings among NATO members would be undertaken to negotiate the response before a united front would be displayed as an alliance," said Baines. "When Article 5 was invoked on Sept. 12, 2001, it took almost a month to confirm the source of the attack and the response."

    This week, France invoked the mutual defence clause of the European Union treaty, the first time a member country has done so. It too states that if a member state is attacked, other members are obliged to aid and assist. But much like Article 5, it doesn't require military assistance.

    A reluctance by France to call for NATO's help would not be altogether surprising, as the country has a long history of ambivalence toward the organization, Saideman said.

    From the mid-1960s, then president Charles De Gaulle wanted France to forge an independent foreign policy and pulled out of NATO's operational chain of command. While that changed under president Nicolas Sarkozy, who wanted France to play a larger role in NATO, it's unclear whether Hollande wants France to return to its traditional relationship with NATO.

    The main value of Article 5 would be to rally support and solidarity, and France already has that, said Baines, who doubts France would seek out NATO to respond to the attacks.

    "Many aspects of a NATO response have already begun to be made through pledges of military, intelligence and logistical support. Any augmented campaign in Iraq and Syria will almost certainly have to work in conjunction with Russian forces, and NATO involvement might not be the best option for that to work."

    If France intended to invoke Article 5, those moves would have been foreshadowed immediately, said Adam Chapnick, professor of defence studies at the Canadian Forces College. After the Sept. 11 attacks, the Americans made it clear quickly that they intended to make the attacks an Article 5 issue.

    "France has had many opportunities to do that. They haven't yet," he said. "They didn't do it when the situation was most urgent, which makes it less likely that they would do so now, nor has any other NATO member suggested this should be done."

    "There have been pundits who have suggested [they do] so. But I haven't seen any official head of government or official head of state come out and say we need to activate Article 5 here."

    As well, framing the French response as a NATO response potentially gives other states an excuse to do less, Chapnick said.

    "If the Russians decided all of a sudden this is a problem, we don't want to be involved anymore, they have the out to say this is a NATO issue, not a global issue," said Chapnick.

    "I think it's in the West's interests and France's interest to portray ISIS as having attacked the world. If it's only attacked NATO, that takes a lot of potential allies out of the picture. I don't see what benefit you gain from framing this as a NATO problem rather than a global problem."
    Disgusting. An attack on one, is an attack on all.

    If I go to the bar with a bunch of friends, and one of them gets in a brawl, I don't suddenly "reconsider" my position in being their friend. Even if it means I take a beating, and walk away on the loosing team, I jump in. It's what friends, what allies, do.

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    Rory McCanuck (11-22-2015)

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    Why do I find it scary that there appears to be more support for joining France to deal with this from Anglophone Canada?

  4. #3
    Have gun, will travel. Forbes/Hutton's Avatar
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    Even if it's not invoked, the other members will know that Trudeau Akbar! was looking for a way out. Should Canada ever invoke Article 5 (possibly as a result of Trudeau Akbar!'s latest voters-to-be) we can expect other nations to respond with "yeah....so?"

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    Coke (11-22-2015)

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    Canadian ForcesMember Billythreefeathers's Avatar
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    Our new defense minister maybe a hell of a soldier,, but,,,

    CF-18s useless without on-the-ground training: Harjit Sajjan

    http://globalnews.ca/news/2355330/cf...harjit-sajjan/

    HALIFAX – Defence Minister Harjit Sajjan is suggesting CF-18 fighter jets would make little difference in the war against the Islamic State if Canada doesn’t focus completely on its training mission in Iraq.

    Sajjan fielded more questions today at the Halifax International Security Forum about the Liberal government’s plans to withdraw the fighter jets.

    Sajjan was asked if Canada’s allies raised the matter with him during the security forum.


    He told reporters that if the training of ground forces in Iraq isn’t done right then it won’t matter where bombs drop.

    Sajjan reiterated that Canada is part of a coalition in the fight against ISIL, and other members of the coalition are contributing resources to airstrikes.

    The Liberals promised during the election campaign that Canada would pull out of the combat mission against ISIL, but no clear date has been given on when that will occur.
    CSSA

  7. #5
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    "HALIFAX – Defence Minister Harjit Sajjan is suggesting CF-18 fighter jets would make little difference in the war against the Islamic State if Canada doesn’t focus completely on its training mission in Iraq."

    Silly me. I thought there were different branches in our military.

    Didn't realize the RCAF would be needed to train ground forces.

    He's effectively saying the Canadian Forces can't walk and chew gum at the same time.

    Sajjan may have been a fine soldier but he's looking like a terrible Minister of Defence.
    Last edited by soulchaser; 11-22-2015 at 06:43 PM.

  8. #6
    Senior Member Doug_M's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by soulchaser;
    Sajjan may have been a fine soldier but he's looking like a terrible Minister of Defence.
    Despite all the rhetoric otherwise, this government is going to be run from the PMO just like the last one.


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    Spread the word on petition e-2341 (Democratic process). Send people to http://oneclearvoice.ca which takes them directly to the petition.

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    Edenchef (11-22-2015)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug_M View Post
    Despite all the rhetoric otherwise, this government is going to be run from the PMO just like the last one.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
    Duuhh! They got elected.............now, everything else is in the past.

  11. #8
    Senior Member Mark-II's Avatar
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    Yeah, just like the British were under no firm obligation to come to the aid of France in 1914. The "entente" was a loose understanding, not a treaty.

    They ultimately joined in because they could look into the future and see what their own position in the world would be if either the Germans won and controlled the continent, or if the French and Russians had won and would without doubt cast the Brits as betrayers, forever ruining their position on the world stage. They would have been ruined both politically and economically as a world power.


    Hmmmm..... The Idiot could take some lessons in foresight. History repeats, because the playbook never gets replaced.

  12. #9
    Senior Member chuckbuster's Avatar
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    The Liberals under Selfie the Clown are just looking for a way out of doing any heavy lifting. They will then swoop in to claim how their plans and policies were an indispensible major factor in any achievement or success attained by those who actually did the work. Nothing new here.
    Magua took the hatchet to colour with blood...It is still bright.

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