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  1. #1
    CSSA Team_CSSA's Avatar
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    From April 16th, CSSA E-News!: COMMENTARY – IS BILL S-223 A DANGEROUS "TROJAN HORSE?"

    COMMENTARY – IS BILL S-223 A DANGEROUS "TROJAN HORSE?"

    She's baaaack. Just when you thought it was safe to go into the Senate of Canada, along comes Senator Céline Hervieux-Payette with the newest incarnation of her Draconian anti-gun bill, now called Bill S-223.

    This is the latest of several legislative introductions the honourable Senator has made to inflict a wicked piece of garbage on Canadians.

    The bill would change the "Restricted" category to "Circumscribed" (cutting off the flash hider of your AR-15?), prohibit all firearms except a VERY narrow range of hunting firearms and “localize” the prohibition of restricted firearms. In other words, that's centralized lock up of some of your guns and destruction of the rest.

    ALL SEMI-AUTOS OF ALL TYPES (except .22s) WOULD BE RESTRICTED/ PROHIBITED.

    As well, no one would be allowed to move circumscribed (restricted/prohibited) guns except approved “Transporters.” Of course, these would be made up of highly trained, untouchable and steely-eyed folks – like Canada Post, but even better.

    Guns would not be “registered” but “inscribed.” Says the good Senator: “You can appreciate that the terms ‘registration’ and ‘registered’ have been used so often that we simply thought that using the term ‘inscription’ would eliminate some anxiety. I think that using the term inscription does not evoke feelings of fear”.

    Yes, it's true, she really does think you are that stupid.

    Seemingly, she also thinks the media and the rest of Canadians are stupid enough to be fooled by this childish attempt at deceit.

    The Senator also states: “The firearm death rate in the United States, a country with very weak gun control laws, was 10.3 per 100,000 population in 2011. That amounts to 32,163 deaths in one year, according to the National Vital Statistic Reports from the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services. That would be the number of deaths if 20 towers, like those of the World Trade Center, were to collapse every year in the United States. There were 2,977 victims on September 11, 2001.”

    Apparently she failed arithmetic too.

    Twenty World Trade Center tragedies would total 59,540, not 32,163. She also quotes the U.S. example as proof that Canada is different because of our gun control while failing to recognize that as the numbers of U.S. firearms goes up, violent crime with firearms goes down. Apparently the Senator's facts only go in one direction and her prowess in deciphering and analyzing social trends and dangers is only dwarfed by her considerable mathematics skills.

    As the last pail of stupid gets thrown into the tub, all restricted/prohibited would be forbidden to transfer.

    There's a lot more too. Some 76 pages of legalese gobbledygook to decipher, but we are on it!

    The bill cannot receive second reading until the Liberals and the Conservatives speak to the bill. The Liberals are set to speak on April 19 and the Conservative are TBA, but we are watching this closely. Bill S-223 has had a HUGE amount of work put into its creation. It took a number of Department of Justice lawyers a few months of work to create this one – and that is very concerning.

    We will be listening to the Liberal's statement on the bill, anxious to hear if their promise to not create a gun registry meant that it was okay to create an “inscription registry.” If this bill passes second reading, we go to war!

    Stay tuned, polish your armour and sharpen your swords.
    Last edited by Team_CSSA; 04-18-2016 at 09:09 AM. Reason: Double Commentary'd the title.
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  2. #2
    CSSA Team_CSSA's Avatar
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    Apologies, somehow put a double "Commentary" in the thread title...
    To visit the CSSA's Website - HERE
    To sign-up to CSSA's E-News - HERE

  3. #3
    Senior Member Foxer's Avatar
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    Well i have doubts it'll move forward much, i don't think the libs want to pick THAT much of a fight with us right now. And there would be significant costs associated with implementing her bill and the last thing they want is to spend more money they don't have on projects that probably aren't vote winners.

    But - having said that, first off you can never know what'll happen especially as the lib senators are not tied to the party the same way any more so we must be ultra vigilant. if it does move on, we'll have to take action there's no doubt. But second off - I believe this is a bit of a liberal balloon to gauge the reaction to and support of more gun control legislation. The libs will be looking to see how many letters of support they get for this kind of stuff, and how many letters of non-support they get, and that might give them some insight into how far they can 'push' us in the coming years to maximize positive voter response amongst their base while minimizing gun owner backlash. So it still pays to be vocal now and make sure we send a message that NONE of this is ok, and do so in large numbers.

  4. #4
    The Gunsmithing Moderator blacksmithden's Avatar
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    ZERO compliance my friends. ZERO.
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  6. #5
    Senior Member RangeBob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OriginalPost View Post
    She also quotes the U.S. example as proof that Canada is different because of our gun control while failing to recognize that as the numbers of U.S. firearms goes up, violent crime with firearms goes down. Apparently the Senator's facts only go in one direction and her prowess in deciphering and analyzing social trends and dangers
    Yep.

    Her belief is that by changing Canada's laws to match England's, Canada will enjoy the homicide rates of England.

    But you can't do that, because social trends and history are different in the two countries.

    As one YouTuber put it

    @9:35

    Homicide rates

    1919 UK/Wales: 0.08/100k (** this 1919 stat may be wrong **)
    1919 USA: 9.5/100k (118 times UK)

    1983 UK/Wales: 0.67/100k
    1986 USA: 7.59/100k (11 times UK)

    2011 UK/Wales: 1.0/100k
    2012 USA: 4.7/100k (4 times UK)

    Both countries have more gun laws today than they did in 1919,
    but generally it can be said that
    the United Kingdom has hugely fewer guns per person than it used to, whereas
    the United States has more guns per person than it ever had.

    The correct way of looking at it is:
    - what happened in Canada when we changed the laws previously -- see Langmann http://www.rangebob.com/Langmann/DrC...1974to2008.pdf where he concludes "Three different methods of analysis failed to definitively demonstrate an association between firearms legislation and homicide between 1974 and 2008 in Canada."
    - what happened in England when they changed the laws previously -- see below


  7. #6
    Senior Member Foxer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blacksmithden View Post
    ZERO compliance my friends. ZERO.
    If it gets to that point, we've already lost. Not complying will simply delay the inevitable. We MUST win BEFORE that point or really it's all over.

    Our only hope if this were to somehow make it thru and become law would be to put a strong CPC gov't in place at the next election. This bill would take the better part of a year to become law, and THEN it would take a fairly decent amount of time to actually bring it into force. And we can probably delay that a bit. So it would barely have been in force before the next election, and we would stand a strong chance of being able to cancel or reverse it at that point if a sympathetic CPC gov't were to get in instead of a liberal gov't. (which is one of the reasons i don't think the libs would be allowing this to go thru - it would become an election issue affecting ALL gun owners and they've seen how that goes for them in the past).

  8. #7
    Senior Member RangeBob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Team_CSSA View Post
    “The firearm death rate in the United States, a country with very weak gun control laws, was 10.3 per 100,000 population in 2011. That amounts to 32,163 deaths in one year, according to the National Vital Statistic Reports from the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services. That would be the number of deaths if 20 towers, like those of the World Trade Center, were to collapse every year in the United States. There were 2,977 victims on September 11, 2001.”

    Apparently she failed arithmetic too.

    Twenty World Trade Center tragedies would total 59,540, not 32,163.
    Tony Bernardo is wrong there.


    There were two towers.


    She says that it would take 20 towers falling, and Tony says Twenty World Trade Center tragedies. These are apples and oranges, off by a factor of 2.


    She writes "There were 2,977 victims on September 11, 2001" which is close enough.

    The September 11 attacks killed 2,996 people and injured more than 6,000 others. These immediate deaths included 265 on the four planes, 2,606 in the World Trade Center and in the surrounding area, and 125 at the Pentagon
    -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casual...ber_11_attacks
    2,606 * 20 towers / 2 towers per attack = 26,060

    which is the same order of magnitude as her 32,163 stat.
    The 2013 CDC total would be 33,169. (below quote)

    I note that she used the National Vital Statistic Reports which are higher than the FBI stats.
    FBI 2013 homicide with firearm: 8,454 (here)
    CDC 2013 homicide with firearm: 11,208


    According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, in 2013, firearms were used in 84,258 nonfatal injuries (26.65 per 100,000 U.S. citizens) and 11,208 deaths by homicide (3.5 per 100,000), 21,175 by suicide with a firearm, 505 deaths due to accidental discharge of a firearm, and 281 deaths due to firearms-use with "undetermined intent" for a total of 33,169 deaths related to firearms (excluding firearm deaths due to legal intervention). 1.3% of all deaths in the country were related to firearms.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_vi..._United_States

  9. #8
    www.cdnshootingsports.org/ Jarlath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RangeBob View Post
    Tony Bernardo is wrong there.

    There were two towers.
    She says that it would take 20 towers falling, and Tony says Twenty World Trade Center tragedies. These are apples and oranges, off by a factor of 2.
    She writes "There were 2,977 victims on September 11, 2001" which is close enough.
    2,606 * 20 towers / 2 towers per attack = 26,060

    which is the same order of magnitude as her 32,163 stat.
    The 2013 CDC total would be 33,169. (below quote)
    I'll agree that Tony's math isn't perfect. But as usual, the stats the senator quotes also include suicide rates...

    In 2001, there was a total of 2,416,425 deaths were reported in the United States.
    2.4 million+...
    Diabetes mellitus (E10-E14) ............................................. 71,372
    Pneumonia (J12-J18) .................................................. .... 61,777
    Major cardiovascular diseases (I00-I78) ............................ 922,334
    Malignant neoplasms (C00-C97) ...................................... 553,768
    Intentional self-harm (suicide) (*U03,X60-X84,Y87.0) 1 ..... 30,622 (By firearms 16,869)
    Assault (homicide) (*U01-*U02,X85-Y09,Y87.1) 1 ............. 20,308 (By firearms 11,348)
    Accidental discharge of firearms (W32-W34) ..................... 802
    Discharge of firearms, undetermined intent (Y22-Y24) ....... 231
    (Source: http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr52/nvsr52_03.pdf)


    Lets check for 2011
    2,512,873 deaths...
    Diabetes mellitus (E10-E14) ............................................. 73,282
    Pneumonia (J12-J18) .................................................. .... 52,136
    Major cardiovascular diseases (I00-I78) ............................ 778,503
    Malignant neoplasms (C00-C97) ...................................... 575,313
    Intentional self-harm (suicide) (*U03,X60-X84,Y87.0) 1 ..... 38,285 (By firearms 19,766)
    Assault (homicide) (*U01-*U02,X85-Y09,Y87.1) 1 ............. 15,519 (By firearms 11,101)
    Accidental discharge of firearms (W32-W34) ..................... 851
    Discharge of firearms, undetermined intent (Y22-Y24) ....... 222
    (Source http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr61/nvsr61_06.pdf)


    Regardless of the made up stats to suit their position, it is the verbiage and bridging that is the issue...

    Guns - Sept 11, 2001 Terror attack - 20 Towers destroyed - gun deaths annually
    One is a terror attack on US soil that claimed thousands of lives at a single location over a matter of minutes/hours. The other is a dropped together stat which encompasses UNDER 0.002% of deaths in the USA annually.
    Despite this the items are linked in words to generate impact and pause to frame gun deaths as a HUGE issue.

    OH. Note that they have to use the USA numbers as the comparison... It makes the numbers look so much more dangerous...
    Canada 2011
    242,074 deaths
    Suicide - 3,728 (total)
    Assault (Homicde) - 545 (total)
    "Every loss of a soldier is a significant one. These great Canadians, died serving Canada and the people of Afghanistan."
    Modified statement of Col. Mike Cessford, deputy commander of Canadian Forces in Afghanistan.

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  10. #9
    Senior Member RangeBob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarlath View Post
    the stats the senator quotes also include
    And equally importantly, "firearms death rates" ignores death by other causes.
    Or as it's been put, if you see the phrase "gun deaths", you're being snowed.

    In Canada certainly, amongst {homicide, suicide and accidents}, firearms are not the majority method for those.
    And even in the USA, firearms do not cause suicide, do not cause homicide.

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