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  1. #1
    Senior Member tdod101's Avatar
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    Gun Licenses Exceed 2 Million for First Time

    https://thegunblog.ca/2016/06/05/gun...or-first-time/



    The number of Canadians with gun licences exceeded 2 million for the first time last year, boosted by shooters in British Columbia, Alberta and Ontario.

    The country counted 2,026,011 individual firearms licences as of Dec. 31, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police said in its Commissioner of Firearms report for 2015, published online on April 12. That compares with 1,989,181 permits at the end of 2014.

    About 7 percent of Canadian adults have gun licences, more than the percentage who play golf, hockey, soccer, baseball, basketball or who ski. Last year marked the sixth consecutive annual increase in the number of permit holders at Dec. 31, as more men and women want guns for recreation, competition, hunting and collecting.

    It is illegal in Canada to buy or own a firearm or ammunition without a police-issued licence, and getting one is complex and costly.

    A standard Possession and Acquisition Licence (PAL) allows you to own certain shotguns and rifles, but you need a so-called “Restricted” PAL to buy handguns or AR-15 rifles. Each type of permit requires attending 8 to 10 hours of class costing $120 to $200, passing a test, and sending an application to the RCMP with a non-refundable payment of $60 for a PAL or $80 for a “Restricted” PAL. The police generally take about two months to check your background, contact your references and, if they decide to approve, to issue a permit. Licences are valid for five years.

    Last year, 36,830 people went through that process and obtained licences. British Columbians led the increase with 13,955, followed by Albertans with 13,751 and Ontarians with 8,418. The number of license holders in Quebec fell by 2,030, and in New Brunswick by 1,165.

    The number of Canadians who use firearms legally or who support shooting could be two, three or four times higher than the number of licence holders. In many families, the father is the only one with a permit, even though his wife and children also shoot or hunt. Many people with permits take unlicensed friends to the target range, and many ranges offer unlicensed visitors the chance to shoot under supervision.

    In 1998, before ownership licences became mandatory, a report by the Department of Justice estimated that about 3 million civilians owned firearms, representing some 26 percent of households.

    In addition to more Canadians getting licensed, we’re also buying more so-called “Restricted” firearms, such as pistols, revolvers and AR-15s. The number of such guns owned by individuals and businesses climbed by 9.5 percent last year to 795,854, the RCMP report said. Every province and territory recorded gains, led by Ontario with 37,946, Alberta with 10,943 and British Columbia with 8,508.
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  3. #2
    Moderator kennymo's Avatar
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    Well it's not really the first time....under the old system weren't we as high as 6-8 million?
    Cleverly disguised as a responsible adult.

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    Senior Member Run 'n' Gun's Avatar
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    It's good to see the amount of restricted sales going up, the more registered voters that own them, hopefully the less likely we will be thrown under the bus.
    Madness is like gravity, all it takes is a little push

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    Senior Member tdod101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Run 'n' Gun View Post
    It's good to see the amount of restricted sales going up, the more registered voters that own them, hopefully the less likely we will be thrown under the bus.
    It'd be nice to know how many of the previous 36% of Canadians who voted owned firearms.
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  6. #5
    Senior Member Petamocto's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kennymo View Post
    Well it's not really the first time....under the old system weren't we as high as 6-8 million?
    I don't have the numbers in front of me, but I doubt it. Back then the population was 20,000,000 including kids, so 6-8 million would be half of the adult population.

    2 million and climbing is very good. As long as we outpace population growth we're gold.
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  7. #6
    Senior Member Foxer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kennymo View Post
    Well it's not really the first time....under the old system weren't we as high as 6-8 million?
    I don't think so. Given our population back then you're talking about something like one out of every two/three people over the age of 18. I don't think we've been anywhere near that for a very long time.

    Either way - nice to see the numbers heading back in the right direction. And it does send a strong message. The libs won't care much about alberta vote wise because it's kind of a wasteland for them, but they need BC if they're going to win majorities and they DEFINITELY need ontario.

    We need to keep pushing, keep getting newbies to the range, keep those numbers as high as possible. Especially in urban and suburban areas, the more that we see there the more that we put the fear of god into the libs. I'm personally taking out a young couple to teach them the basics and get them excited in a few weeks, we should all be looking for opportunity. If every shooter got 1 new person into shooting every 4 years, we'd still experience a 25 percent growth rate (not including attrition from death of course). There's no reason we can't be back to 3 million licensed gun owners within 10 years if we're pushing.

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  9. #7
    Senior Member Foxer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Petamocto View Post
    I don't have the numbers in front of me, but I doubt it. Back then the population was 20,000,000 including kids, so 6-8 million would be half of the adult population.

    2 million and climbing is very good. As long as we outpace population growth we're gold.
    Ha! - beat me to it.

  10. #8
    Senior Member RangeBob's Avatar
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    Commissioner of Firearms Report 2015
    http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/en/2015-co...irearms-report

  11. #9
    Senior Member RangeBob's Avatar
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    [In the below, the import/export stats are the most convincing.]

    Just how many firearms and owners are their in Canada?
    # of guns in Canada according to the Liberals: 16.5 Million (Dec 13/01) [http://www.garrybreitkreuz.com/breit...Control50.htm]
    # of guns according to the 1976 Liberal Party: 10.5 million (Mar 19/76) [http://www.garrybreitkreuz.com/publi..._feb27-03.htm]
    # of guns in Canada according to the NFA/LUFA: 21 Million (NFA) [below]
    # of guns in Canada according to Gov't Canadian Firearms Center:7+million, CFC changes this number yearly to mislead Canadians into thinking they have 90% compliance.
    # of gun owners in Canada according to the Liberals: 3.3 Million (May 19/98)
    # of gun owners in Canada according to NFA/LUFA: 7 Million (NFA)

    # of guns registered: 6,896,948 (Jul 20/04)
    # of registration issued without owner's name: all of them 6,896,948 (May 27/02 1 2)
    # of licenced gun owners still to register their guns: 406,834 (Jul 20/04)
    # of guns registered without Serial #: 728,046 (Aug 29/02 1 2)
    # of guns registration forms with blank and unknown entries: 3,235,647 (Aug 29/02)
    # of guns in registry still have to be Verified: 5.1 Million (Sep 9/03 1 2)
    # of stolen guns registered that weren't supposed to be: 4,438 (Sep 11/03)
    # of guns lost by and stolen from the RCMP: 108 (Sep 3/03)
    # of guns lost by and stolen from the Defence Dept: 409 (Jul4/02)
    # of "Stickers" issued for guns without Serial #s: 813,822 (Nov 1/02)
    # registered with same serial numbers as stolen guns: 250,305 (Sep 11/03)
    # of foreign firearms gov't has lost track of: 288,688 (Jan 15/04 1 2 3 )
    # of employees working in the gun registry: 1,800 (April 12/01 - Feb 21/02)
    # of Provinces opted out of the gun registry: 8 (August 29/01)
    # of Provinces refusing to prosecute Firearm Act offences: 8 (Sep 13/03)
    Percentage of people that want the Registry scrapped: 76.7% (Oct 30/03 1 2 3 4 5 6)
    # of crimes solved with Handgun Registry: Gov't doesn't know (May 8/96)
    # of crimes solved with Registered Handguns: Gov't doesn't know (Mar 9/04 1 2)
    # of guns registered with same make & serial number: 222,911 (Mar 23/02)
    # of duplicate firearms registration certificates issued: 26,800 (Jul 11/02)
    # of owners of Registered Handguns without a licence: 304,375 (May 27/02 1 2)
    # of gun licence holders gov't has lost track of: 38,629 (Feb 27/02)
    # of registered handgun owners RCMP lost track of: 11,801 (Nov 18/02)
    # of duplicate firearms licences issued: 832 (Jan 24/02)
    # of firearms licences issued with wrong photo: 259 (Mar 18/02)
    Error Rate in firearms licences: 71% (Apr 28/00)
    Error Rate in firearms registration applications: 90% + 42% (Jul 18/01 1 2)
    # of known breaches of Police CPIC System from 1995 - May 2003: 306 (Feb 12/04 1 2 3)
    License issued without a firearms safety course: 15,381 (Jul 11/02)
    # of background checks completed: Gov't doesn't know (Jun 3/03)
    Gov't claims Gun Registry has cost and will cost: $1.4 Billion (Nov 24/04)
    # of Cost Questions the Liberals failed to answer: 26 (Nov 24/04)
    # of Registry Effectiveness questions the Liberals failed to answer: 16 (Mar 22/04)
    Gun Registry Major Contracts April 1996 - Dec 2003: $342 million (May 5/04)
    Cost to privatize the Gun Registry: $371 million (July 18/02 1 2 3 4 5)
    Cost of Enforcing the Gun Registry: Gov't doesn't know (May 26/03)
    Cost of Enforcement - Liberal Study: at least a billion more (Mar 24/03)
    Cost of Compliance for Firearm Owners: Gov't doesn't know (May 26/03)
    Cost of Compliance - Registering Guns: 117+ Million (Jun 30/03)
    Cost of Compliance - Licencing Firearm Owners: $250+ million (Jun 30/03)
    Cost Benefit Analysis on the Gun Registry: A Cabinet Secret (Mar 25/03 1 2)
    Number of Charter Rights violated by the firearms Act before it became law: 17 (Oct 5/02)
    # of insurance companies who think owning a gun is a risk: Zero (Mar 5/03)
    Violent crimes involving a firearm: 1.4% (Sep 7/00 1 2)
    Percentage of robberies committed with Long Guns: 1% (Nov 15/04 1 2 3 4)
    -- http://www.lufa.ca/quickfacts.asp
    http://archive.is/Z13Lm

    if we apply the individual gun ownership figures reported by Goldfarb in 1976 to the 1998 population over nineteen years of age (23.1 million), between 4.8 million and 6.4 million Canadians owned guns in 1998.
    The CFC ’s 2001 survey concluded that there are 7.92 million firearms in Canada: fifty-three per cent are rifles; forty per cent are shotguns; six per cent are handguns; and, one per cent are classified as “other” firearms. Both the 1991 Angus Reid Group Inc. and 2001 CFC data are completely inconsistent with earlier gun stock estimates and import/export data.
    - 4 million to 4.5 million gun owning households;
    - 5 million to 5.3 million individual gun owners; and,
    - 11 million to 13 million civilian-owned firearms.
    -- import/export stats http://www.cdnshootingsports.org/pub...on_Dollars.pdf



    Quote Originally Posted by NFAatLUFA
    HOW MANY FIREARMS AND OWNERS ARE THERE IN CANADA?

    by J.L. Perocchio

    The National Firearms Association's figures are: 7,000,000 Canadian owners with 21,000,000 firearms. The Coalition for Gun Control (CGC) figures are about 2,000,000 owners with 6, 000, 000 firearms. Both figures agree that the average owner has about three firearms (a constant in every country). But who's right?

    The CGC figures are based on a telephone poll. Many owners of firearms, jewelry, or other valuables won't admit to an anonymous voice on the phone that they keep valuables in their homes.

    The NFA figures are calculated using three different methods:

    1. There were 1,221,179 registered restricted firearms in the RCMP FRAS records in Dec. 1993. The unrestricted firearm to "restricted" firearm ratio is at least 20: 1. Conservatively, that means 24,423,580 unrestricted plus 1,221,179 restricted. Allowing for errors in the RCM P's registration system, we strike off 221,179 registered firearms as non-existent, which reduces the total to 21,000,000 firearms with 7,000,000 owners.

    2. The government's own estimate in Dec. 1976, published as part of its gun control campaign, was 6,000,000 owners with 18,000,000 firearms. During hearings on the -Campbell bill, officials from the office of the Minister of Justice testified that the long-term average net annual importation of firearms into Canada (imports minus exports) was 190,000 per year. Therefore, adding 190,000 per year to the 18,000,000 of 1976, we get a total of 21,6 1 0,000 by Dec. 1993. Subtract 6 1 0,000 plus one firearm for every firearm manufactured in Canada during those 17 years as an allowance for firearms destroyed, dismantled or worn out -- and you are back at 21,000,000 firearms with 7,000,000 owners.

    3. Restricted firearm ownership increased from 861,571 in Dec. 1984 to 1,221,179 in Dec. 93, an increase of (1,221,179 - 861,571) divided by 861,571 = 41.74 per cent in 9 years. Those figures are solid, because they are taken from the Annual Report of the C commissioner of the RCMP. The NFA estimates that the 1976 figure for total firearms owned, I 8,000,000 , increased to 2 1,000,000 by 1993. That represents a "total firearms" increase of only 16.67 per cent in 17 years, which is again quite conservative.

    None of the above estimates include any figures for illegally-imported firearms, which are known to have increased sharply each time restrictive, costly, and/or vague legislation had made legal ownership more complicated, more expensive, and/or more risky.

    Bill C-68 makes certain knives "prohibited weapons" which can not be imported, bought, sold or traded by anyone. That is clear, but its conditions regarding "prohibited firearms" are far less clear: They are treated like "restricted firearms" under FA s. 12 (6) and 26 (b), or like unrestricted firearms under FA s. 12(2) to (5) and 26(a), but not like "prohibited weapons."

    That is curious; the "prohibited firearms" are, when in the hands of someone who is malicious, untrained or incompetent, far more dangerous than the knives selected as "prohibited weapons."

    Bill C-68 proposes subdividing "prohibited firearms" into 5 groups, owned by 5 groups of owners [FA s. 12(2) to (6)], who may buy, sell and trade within each group [Fa s. 113(2) (b)]. There are provisions for similar new groups to be established by Order in Council at any time [Fa s. 12(7)], further confusing things.

    Each member of the 5 groups is therefore regarded, in law, as a member of a trusted elite, while all other Canadians -- and all future Canadians -will not be trusted in the same way. It is difficult to understand the basis for that discrimination. Does it mean that C68's drafters believe Canadians are degenerating?

    The 5 groups of "prohibited firearms" do not include the firearms most commonly used by Canadian violent criminals. If the firearm control provisions were intended to affect crime and criminals, that would obviously not be the situation today.

    The fundamental principle of "grandfathering" is bringing The law into disrepute. On the one hand, Parliament is saying that the firearms converted to "prohibited weapon" status (either by Order in Council or by legislation) are so dangerous to society that they must be eliminated. On the other hand, Parliament is saying that those same firearms are so safe in our society that the owners can keep them until they die, and continue to buy, sell and trade them. One of those concepts has to be wrong.

    It is often not possible to determine whether a particular firearm is unrestricted, a "restricted weapon," or a "prohibited weapon" simply by examining the firearm. The status of the firearm often depends upon its status in government records on one particular date. The government's own survey ("Review of Firearms Registration, TRI994-9e") proves that those records are grossly inadequate to prove anything in a court of law. Frequently, two identical firearms fall into different status categories; one is a grandfathered "prohibited weapon," and the other is not. It is not possible to distinguish between them by any physical characteristic. One can be bought, sold, traded and owned within the law; the other never can.

    In such a scrambled-egg situation, it is becoming steadily more apparent that allowing the government to register firearms has the result that the government then confiscates the firearm or at least gets the owner into trouble due to the government's proven inefficiency at operating the registration system.

    Kim Campbell's regime converted many firearms from unrestricted status to "restricted weapon" status, so that the government would know where they were. Almost as soon as they entered the registration system, the Allan Rock regime converted them to "prohibited weapon" status. That has been widely accepted as indicative of the overall scheme of things to come.

    The cost of operating within the law has steadily risen, and it is now frequently easier, cheaper and quicker to buy illegal firearms in Canada than it is to buy legal ones. That respect for the law has declined, primarily because of arrogance, ignorance and incompetence of the government officials running the system and drafting revisions to it, is apparent to anyone directly involved.

    This ludicrous state of affairs has brought the law into disrepute. it apparent to the meanest wit that the firearms control provisions or the Criminal Code are being used by the Party in power as a way to impose its simplistic social engineering theories upon Canadians.

    LEGISLATION

    The theory apparently is that progressive firearms control, tending toward complete elimination of all privately-owned firearms, has beneficial effects for the society. Evidence that the theory is true ranges from scanty to nil. Evidence that it reduces violent crime, suicides, or homicides proves that it does not. They all tend to rise after a wave of firearms control.

    On the other hand, there is a great deal of well-researched scientific evidence that the theory is false. The office of the Minister of Justice was castigated by the Auditor General in his 1993 Report for failing to evaluate the evidence and proceeding on the basis of unsubstantiated theory. That was ignored.

    It has not escaped the notice of the recreation firearms community that the few safeguards in place today are severely eroded or totally destroyed by Bill C-68. For example, the requirement to place Orders in Council before each House of Parliament for 30 sitting days has been neatly destroyed by the combination of FA s. 112(6) and CC s. 1 17.15. The objective-determination ("a kind not commonly used in Canada for hunting or sporting purposes") protection offered to hunters for their firearms by the current CC s. 84(l) "prohibited weapon" (e) has been replaced by the Minister's opinion ("in the opinion of the Governor in Council... is reasonable for use in Canada...").

    If Bill C-68 passes, the Minister has carte blanche to convert any and all firearms to "prohibited firearm" status; to revoke their registration certificated under FA s. 121(2) (b); and thereby to force their confiscation as "prohibited firearms."

    Three govemment documents were used in producing this paper. "Background Information on Firearms Control" (BI) was issued by the Department of Justice, and "Review of Firearms Registration TRI994-9e" (TR) was "funded by the Research Section, Department of Justice Canada"

    BI says (p4) "There are an estimated 7 million firearms in Canada" and "There are 1.2 million restricted weapons registered in Canada." So there are 5.8 million firearms to be registered.

    TR says, in Table 1, that it costs the federal government $38.56 to issue one registration certificate, and, in Table 2, that adding local government costs brings that to an average public cost of $82.69 per registration certificate issued.

    TR also recommends using the Quebec system nationwide (p xv), which would increase the cost from $82.69 to $104.02 (Table 2).

    AP shows (p 24) the new plastic card with individualized printing, magnetic stripe and bar code that will replace today's simple paper registration certificate. The necessary changes to the system include new computer hardware and a new nationwide oneuser custom computer program, to handle all firearms imports, registrations, transfers, exports, and searches. The system will give the location of every firearm in Canada at all times.

    Minister of Justice Allan Rock has admitted that issuing a registration certificate under the new system will cost more than it now does under the obsolescent system. Let's be generous; let's say it will only cost $100 per certificate.

    5.8 million firearms to be registered at $100 each is $580 million. Add the cost of re-issuing new type registrations for 1.2 million currently registered firearms, and you're over $600 million -- not including the costs of new computer hardware, software, or debugging the new comprehensive one-user system.

    TR says (p xi) "FRAS (RCMP Firearms Registration Administration Section conducts approximately 100 traces per year... According to FRAS personnel, most tracing requests do not produce a positive trace." So, a maximum of 49 traces per year succeed.

    In 1993, some 83,913 registration certificated were issued at an average cost of $82.69; total cost, $6,938,765.97; divide that by 49 (maximum!) successful traces: We pay $141,607.47 for each successful trace enough to add 5 new police officers for a year.

    The firearms registration system is touted as necessary in order to allow the police to trace firearms. From the government's own figures, the police make surprisingly little use of it, and it fails more often than it succeeds.

    Why is it so little used? Well, to solve a crime through the system these things are necessary: The police must find the firearm. The police must link the firearm to a particular crime. The criminal must be the registered owner of the firearm. The criminal must still reside at the address given on the registration. That is a very unlikely chain.

    TR also says (p ix), "RCMP... staff have estimated that a significant number of records in the RWRS (Restricted Weapons Registration System) database contain information which is entered in non-standard form, or is stale or incorrect... retrieving information from the database requires multiple queries to address all the various combinations and permutation of firearms descriptors, with no real assurance that all possibilities have been included.

    The theory of firearms registration is that 7 data fields describe a particular firearm as one of a group sharing those 7 characteristics. The one more data field "the serial number" uniquely identifies the particular firearm. "MAKE" and "MODEL" are the two most important data fields in that set of seven.

    TR gives an example of the difficulties caused by the lack of any standard for data field entries (p I 1); "The unedited "MAKE" field contains 22,100 different entries; most with several variations. For example the make DRULOV (DRUZATNA LOVENA) has been entered in 31 different variants."

    This has led to embarrassment in the past, as in the Anderson criminal trial. The Crown entered a sworn statement ftom the head FRAS saying, "I have made a careful examination and search of (the RWRS) records and have been unable to find any record of a valid registration certificate (for the firearm in this case)."

    The defence entered a photocopy of the registration certificate, supplied by FRAS from their files, certified as a "true copy." Both documents were signed by the same officer on the same day.One wonders why anyone would want to hugely expand such a mess.

    The only rational explanation seems to come from Minister of Justice Kim Campbell's 1991 Orders in Council which "converted" unrestricted firearms to "restricted weapon" status. That has been followed by Minister of Justice Allan Rock's 1994 Orders in Council, "converting" the same firearms to "prohibited weapon" status. They are to be confiscated without compensation by the government. The system is useful for confiscating property where no crime is proven or even alleged, without government expense.

    Fortunately, the arrogance, ignorance and incompetence of the two Ministers' advisers have embarrassed two federal governments. Their "converting" Orders in Council are invalid for improper enactment, according to the Alberta Court of Queen's Bench.

    -- http://www.lufa.ca/howmanyfirearmowners.asp

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  13. #10
    Senior Member RangeBob's Avatar
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    In 1994, three people might report ownership of a single rifle: the father who bought it with his FAC, the wife who legitimately figured she was joint-owner of all of her husband's property, and the eldest son for whom the rifle had been bought.

    In 2004, due to licencing, a firearm may only be owned by one person (or one business). So the eldest son says "my father owns the rifle legally, but it's 'my' rifle sort of", and the wife now says "my husband owns firearms" but she no longer "owns" them (if he dies she now has to request the government to transfer ownership to her, whereas in 1994 it was obvious it was now hers).

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