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  1. #101
    Senior Member RangeBob's Avatar
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    [feel free to discuss the categorization of 3, missing/excessive bullet points, and whatnot. Please try not to spend too much time ridiculing my optimistic year estimates. ]

    Lately I've been dividing my wants into 3 categories.

    RECENT TRIVIAL STUPIDITY - to be fixed in 2017
    - 22LR 25 round magazine ban. This is malum prohibitum based on an obtuse reading of regulations. No bearing on malum in se. No public safety benefit. It could be fixed in 10 minutes by adding a half dozen words to the regulations.
    - Challenge CFSC restored.
    - and of course, do no more harm for no provable public safety benefit

    NO PUBLIC SAFETY BENEFIT, INDEED LACK CAUSES HARM -- to be fixed in 2018
    - Simplified Classification System (side effect, removes ability for RCMP to reclassify firearms, for the RCMP to make law. Gets rid of 'variant' stupidity.)
    - Lifetime PALs (revocable with due process)
    - Suppressors
    - improved CFSC availability
    - handgun hunting and wilderness carry a feature of PAL
    - Police can auction seized firearms (regulation change)
    - restore standard mags (regulation change)
    - reject UN Marking regulations

    SUBSTANTIAL CHANGE -- requires Conservative government 2020.
    - ATC removal of "need". "Shall issue" based upon two tests {firearms proficiency, knowledge of use of force in defence of life or property}
    - Eliminate punitive safe storage and transport
    - Decriminalize anything associated with firearms unless a true crime such as robbery is involved.
    - Repeal prohibited weapons order that bans stun guns, pepper spray
    - non-restricted = no possession licence only acquisition; restricted = pal no att; full auto = Rpal w/ att
    Last edited by RangeBob; 12-07-2016 at 08:07 AM.

  2. The Following 5 Users Like This Post By RangeBob

    Buster (12-07-2016), Hidyn (12-11-2016), IJ22 (12-24-2016), Rory McCanuck (12-07-2016), speedloader (12-07-2016)

  3. #102
    Senior Member RealDeckard's Avatar
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    Even if the phrase 'pixie dust' makes you shart, the party should not go that route any longer. Substantive change = substantive support.

  4. #103
    Senior Member RangeBob's Avatar
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    By way of example.

    Suppressors.

    A typical hunting rifle will produce a muzzle blast of approximately 166 dB (decibels). Adding a good quality sound suppressor to that rifle will reduce the muzzle blast to around 138 dB. This is below the hearing safe limit for impulse noise of 140 dB.

    Db is a logarithmic scale. Doubling the sound for every increase of 6dB. You probably listen to television around 50dB-60dB. You probably tell your kids to turn it down when they play music at 80dB-90dB (anything over 85dB is considered dangerous). A chain saw is 110dB. The world's loudest shout is 129dB. A rivet hammer is 130dB. A jet aircraft is 140dB.

    Several western countries around the world allow suppressors. Canadian police legally use sound suppressors to protect their hearing. A few LE agencies in Canada are now mandating the use of a can on their "patrol carbines" due to OH&S studies and regulations. At least one country was forced to allow suppressors because of a lawsuit about hearing damage, and the government's prohibition violating OH&S regulations.

    It not only protects the shooter's hearing, but dramatically reduces noise complaints near shooting ranges (including those where the neighbours signed waivers at purchase), and reduces farm livestock discomfort.

    It has no detrimental effect on bystander hunting safety or awareness, because 140dB is still loud, and the supersonic bullet flight noise is 150dB.

    The reason suppressors (aka silencers, moderators, a can) are banned is because of movies in the 1940s-1960s where silencers falsely made a pfft noise around 30dB. That's less loud than any motor in your house, including fridge, furnace, microwave. It's quieter than most people whisper in a library. Again, a real volume for a bullet fired through a suppressor is near 140dB, not 30dB. 140dB is 262,144 times louder than 30dB (140-30/6=18. 2^18=262144).

    It has no criminal effect, because criminals don't bother with the risk of possessing a silencer, when they can use a plastic pop bottle full of shaving cream or a folded over pillow and get almost the same reduction as a good quality sound suppressor.

    The law is pointless from a public safety benefit.
    The law causes harm to shooters, and neighbours.
    Both of these facts have been recognized by science, and in courts with the benefit of cross-examination, across the world.
    Last edited by RangeBob; 12-07-2016 at 08:03 AM.

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  6. #104
    Senior Member speedloader's Avatar
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    [feel free to discuss the categorization of 3, missing/excessive bullet points, and whatnot. Please try not to spend too much time ridiculing my optimistic year estimates.
    I like it RB well done, especially the Recent Trivial stupidity category
    to which I would like to add this:WHICH SHOULD HAVE BEEN OBVIOUS BUT
    IF YOU OWN GUNS YOU CAN'T VOTE FOR AN ANTI GUN IDIOT PARTY
    BECAUSE THEY WILL IDIOT US TO DEATH WITH THESE TRIVIAL STUPIDITY'S
    AND WILL CHANGE THE LAWS TO DO IT AT OUR EXPENSE
    IF YOU FEEL THE NEED TO DO THIS NEXT TIME PLEASE SHOOT YOURSELF IN THE FOOT INSTEAD OF THE REST OF US

  7. #105
    Senior Member TheCenturion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RangeBob View Post
    By way of example.

    Suppressors.

    A typical hunting rifle will produce a muzzle blast of approximately 166 dB (decibels). Adding a good quality sound suppressor to that rifle will reduce the muzzle blast to around 138 dB. This is below the hearing safe limit for impulse noise of 140 dB.

    Db is a logarithmic scale. Doubling the sound for every increase of 6dB. You probably listen to television around 50dB-60dB. You probably tell your kids to turn it down when they play music at 80dB-90dB (anything over 85dB is considered dangerous). A chain saw is 110dB. The world's loudest shout is 129dB. A rivet hammer is 130dB. A jet aircraft is 140dB.

    Several western countries around the world allow suppressors. Canadian police legally use sound suppressors to protect their hearing. A few LE agencies in Canada are now mandating the use of a can on their "patrol carbines" due to OH&S studies and regulations. At least one country was forced to allow suppressors because of a lawsuit about hearing damage, and the government's prohibition violating OH&S regulations.

    It not only protects the shooter's hearing, but dramatically reduces noise complaints near shooting ranges (including those where the neighbours signed waivers at purchase), and reduces farm livestock discomfort.

    It has no detrimental effect on bystander hunting safety or awareness, because 140dB is still loud, and the supersonic bullet flight noise is 150dB.

    The reason suppressors (aka silencers, moderators, a can) are banned is because of movies in the 1940s-1960s where silencers falsely made a pfft noise around 30dB. That's less loud than any motor in your house, including fridge, furnace, microwave. It's quieter than most people whisper in a library. Again, a real volume for a bullet fired through a suppressor is near 140dB, not 30dB. 140dB is 262,144 times louder than 30dB (140-30/6=18. 2^18=262144).

    It has no criminal effect, because criminals don't bother with the risk of possessing a silencer, when they can use a plastic pop bottle full of shaving cream or a folded over pillow and get almost the same reduction as a good quality sound suppressor.

    The law is pointless from a public safety benefit.
    The law causes harm to shooters, and neighbours.
    Both of these facts have been recognized by science, and in courts with the benefit of cross-examination, across the world.
    Sorry, just a point of order, 3 db is a doubling of power, 6 db is a quadrupling.
    The difference between a 'citizen' and a 'subject' is the right, and responsibility, to bear arms.

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  9. #106
    Senior Member CLW .45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug_M View Post
    Piss me off? No. Shake my head? Yes.

    It isn't intended to be the end game. It is intended to be a mechanism for social change that leads to the end game. Besides the obvious of removing the RCMP's ability to make arbitrary decisions, the SCS will mean black rifles will make their way into the field where ordinary citizens, hell ordinary hunters, will see them (think affordable AR-15's vice the expensive XCR's). This is the "normalization" process. It is a stepping stone and means to an end. It is substantial change and it is a mechanism for more substantial change. But you know that. You're just being obstinate, because I know you're no fool.
    Substantial, no.

    Substantial would remove prohibition, even with retention of restricted. Moving things around within those classifications is not substantial, no matter how good it feels.

    So, no it is not substantial.
    To show that men can travel to the moon and return, use the American experience.

    To show that public safety isn’t hurt by responsible individuals carrying to protect life, use the American experience.

  10. #107
    Senior Member RangeBob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheCenturion View Post
    Sorry, just a point of order, 3 db is a doubling of power, 6 db is a quadrupling.
    I'm aware the power/energy is doubled at 3dB.
    I was going after 'human perceived loudness'. 6dB or 10dB is often used for that, to indicate a doubling of perceived loudness.

  11. #108
    Senior Member Doug_M's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RangeBob View Post
    I'm aware the power/energy is doubled at 3dB.
    I was going after 'human perceived loudness'. 6dB or 10dB is often used for that, to indicate a doubling of perceived loudness.
    Well us techno-nazis say YOU'RE WRONG (all caps is a 3db increase in spl) so stop it!


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  12. #109
    Senior Member CLW .45's Avatar
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    RangeBob
    - non-restricted = no possession licence only acquisition; restricted = pal no att; full auto = Rpal w/ att
    While nice, this does not qualify as substantial. The nature of the act is not changed.

    Doug is correct about the Simpleton's Classification System being a step forward in that it will not only feel good, but tend to normalize.

    The problem is that asking for unsubstantial change, and I am assuming that is what happened with the SCS, gives the impression that we are happy with that level of change. An assumption that leads the politicians to believe that no substantial change is required. That belief shines through in every leadership candidate's firearms policy. And non-substantial change leaves the disarmament agenda operating at full steam.

    If we are clear in our desire for substantial change, and wind up with less, we can enjoy what we have achieved, while pushing on to our goal, freedom.

    PS

    There is also another consideration with that licencing change. It, like our current system, would tend to invigorate the "divide and conquer" technique used in much of our firearms law. Give a large proportion of owners what they want, taking them out of contention, while continuing to hammer the remainder, before coming after another segment of that large proportion.
    Last edited by CLW .45; 12-07-2016 at 04:03 PM.
    To show that men can travel to the moon and return, use the American experience.

    To show that public safety isn’t hurt by responsible individuals carrying to protect life, use the American experience.

  13. #110
    Senior Member Doug_M's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CLW .45 View Post
    So, no it is not substantial.
    Well that's simply your opinion (and you're entitled to it of course). Sometimes you can't go straight from A to B. Obviously I don't think we can. I think trying to take the shorter route straight to B will result in complete failure and likely cause set backs politically.


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