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  1. #1
    Senior Member RangeBob's Avatar
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    Mar 2014

    Bill C71 - negative public safety benefit

    According to the firearms registry, there are about 5000 Non-restricted firearms stolen per year.

    Year Stolen
    2006 4331
    2007 4259
    2008 2764
    2009 4582
    2010 5203
    2011 6194
    2012 1327 (partial year Jan 1 to Apr 21 2012)

    Reasons for buying an illegal gun {53% for no particular reason—that they simply wanted to possess it, 16% protection, 15% to commit a crime, 16% resale}
    -- shortened from

    Currently, a stolen long gun may be resold to a PALer.
    Rifles are more likely to be resold than the above statistics indicate, because they are less useful and less prized by the criminal element.
    Those firearms that criminals 'simply wanted to possess it' primarily include handguns and fully automatic firearms, and a rifle isn't the firearm of choice for protection or committing a crime (pistols 42% (251) of Toronto crime guns 2012, revolvers 11% (67), toy guns 3% (18), replicas 1.3% (8), starters pistols 3.5% (21), Other 4.3% (26; zip guns, flare guns, stun guns, paintball guns, homemade firearms), are), leaving 19% for rifles and shotguns as Toronto's crime guns.

    Of those 19%, according to statistics Canada, 80% of them were not used in a violent crime, but were merely present at the time of the arrest (Gary Mauser from Statcan data ); reducing that to between 3.2% and 5.3% (sawed off shotgun 26, sawed off rifle 6) which turns out to be the percentage of sawed off rifles and sawed off shotguns that were crime guns in Toronto in 2012.

    So if 16% resale is low for Non-restricted. Combining the 5.3% stat and the 16% overall resale stat, gives (.16 * (.16 / .053)) = 48% of stolen long guns are resold.
    5000 stolen per year * .48 resold = 2,400 resold stolen Non-restricted per year.

    Of those, if 5.3% are sawed off for use as a violent crime gun, that's 127 stolen then sawed off Non-restricted guns per year.

    Police reported 8,105 victims of firearm-related violent crime in 2006, representing a rate of 27.5 per 100,000 population. Robbery (49%) and assault (29%) were the most common violations, accounting for about three-quarters of the total number of firearm-related violent victimizations.
    -- hxxp://

    So all of those 127 could reasonably be used in crime.

    Without Bill C-71, those stolen guns could be sold to PALers, taking them off the street and into the hands of people who will not use them in violent crime.
    With Bill C-71, because of this
    Quote Originally Posted by BillC71
    (3) Subsection 85(1) of the Act is amended by striking out “and” at the end of paragraph (a) and by adding the following after paragraph (b):
    (c) every request for a reference number made to the Registrar under section 23 and, if the request is refused, the reasons for refusing the request; and
    (d) every reference number that is issued by the Registrar under subsection 23(3) and, with respect to each 20 reference number, the day on which it was issued and the licence numbers of the transferor and transferee.
    it is no longer safe for a criminal to sell to a peaceful market.

    Bill C71 forces these long guns to be sold on the street.

    That's a negative safety purpose.

    How would you adjust my reasoning ?

  2. The Following 6 Users Like This Post By RangeBob

    killer kane (06-15-2018), manic29 (05-03-2018), Rory McCanuck (05-02-2018), Specter Arms (05-03-2018), Swampdonkey (06-15-2018), Waterloomike (05-02-2018)

  3. #2
    Senior Member RangeBob's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    I think the above may be wrong. Not in the math, or the basic idea of selling stolen firearms to PALers,
    but in the assumption that Bill C-71 puts a stop to the practice.

    There's nothing in Bill C-71 that says the transferor (seller) must provide the transferee (buyer) the registrar's reference number.


    Quote Originally Posted by CriminalCode
    Transfer without authority
    101 (1) Every person commits an offence who transfers a prohibited firearm, a restricted firearm, a non-restricted firearm, a prohibited weapon, a restricted weapon, a prohibited device, any ammunition or any prohibited ammunition to any person otherwise than under the authority of the Firearms Act or any other Act of Parliament or any regulations made under an Act of Parliament.
    only applies to the transferor (seller), not the transferee (buyer).

    So, I'm thinking, that a thief could take the buyer's PAL information, wait until close of the next business day, and just SAY that they got a reference number from the Canadian Firearms Program, but not actually have called. That would have the appearance of legality in the buyer's eyes.

    Of course this interpretation renders moot Mark Holland's and Peter Fragiskatos' assertions that the bill requires the seller to have a PAL because this is verified at transfer.

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