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  1. #21
    Senior Member CLW .45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by labradort View Post
    I understand the theme. I think it can go two ways. Do we want property rights and self-defence rights? Probably most here do. Do we want Canada to become America? Some wouldn't mind. Others would fight the concept. So you're going to find some rough gravel on the journey if beginning with the second assumption.
    Become America?

    Canada has now, and has always had, provision for carry and possession to protect life.

    Our laws and regulations have mimicked American laws for decades.

    Similar laws are found in virtually every nation on earth.

    Some nations actually recognize the rights of the individual, America does to an extent.

    We don’t want Canada to become America, Britain, Japan, Trinidad, or Zambezi.

    We just want our rights recognized and protected - all of them.

    Anyone who thinks that is asking too much is part of the problem!
    To show that men can travel to the moon and return, use the American experience.

    To show that public safety isnít hurt by responsible individuals carrying to protect life, use the American experience.

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  3. #22
    Senior Member CLW .45's Avatar
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    FWIW.

    There are multiple threads on firearms forums asking when a ban will happen, what will be banned, or whether grandfathering is likely.

    All of them demonstrate what I would describe as being “unclear on the concept.”

    Instead of obsessing over such things, we should be pushing for repeal of prohibition.

    Yeah, I know, most firearms owners only seem to be concerned about their firearms being banned.

    Just as most firearms owners are only concerned about their own access to firearms for self defence, if they are concerned at all.
    To show that men can travel to the moon and return, use the American experience.

    To show that public safety isnít hurt by responsible individuals carrying to protect life, use the American experience.

  4. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by CLW .45 View Post
    FWIW.

    There are multiple threads on firearms forums asking when a ban will happen, what will be banned, or whether grandfathering is likely.

    All of them demonstrate what I would describe as being “unclear on the concept.”

    Instead of obsessing over such things, we should be pushing for repeal of prohibition.

    Yeah, I know, most firearms owners only seem to be concerned about their firearms being banned.

    Just as most firearms owners are only concerned about their own access to firearms for self defence, if they are concerned at all.
    Our challenge as gun owners in Canada is that we are fighting a defensive war, trying to give as little ground as possible at each encounter.

    That's largely because we do not have, in law, a fundamental right to bear arms as a backstop. One can argue that a "law of mankind" (or the like) to gun ownership is absolute. But that is not a defensible position in Canada so it is easily swept away.

    We are dependent entirely upon consensus, the mood of the day, the political will...or the lack there-of of any of these things.

    I cannot fathom Canada broadly ever adopting a fundamental right such as the 2nd amendment as in the US.

    As a result it will always be a war to keep the gains of the other side as small as possible over the long term. The only thing that changes that reality is a change to the reality of what Canada is. It's current structure, coalition of regions and provinces, and Constitution, will never accommodate it. In the current reality, we are destined only to fight the long retreat.
    "The most important thing you can do in your life is not interfere with somebody else's life."

    -- Frank Zappa

  5. #24
    Senior Member CLW .45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soph View Post
    Our challenge as gun owners in Canada is that we are fighting a defensive war, trying to give as little ground as possible at each encounter.

    That's largely because we do not have, in law, a fundamental right to bear arms as a backstop. One can argue that a "law of mankind" (or the like) to gun ownership is absolute. But that is not a defensible position in Canada so it is easily swept away.

    We are dependent entirely upon consensus, the mood of the day, the political will...or the lack there-of of any of these things.

    I cannot fathom Canada broadly ever adopting a fundamental right such as the 2nd amendment as in the US.

    As a result it will always be a war to keep the gains of the other side as small as possible over the long term. The only thing that changes that reality is a change to the reality of what Canada is. It's current structure, coalition of regions and provinces, and Constitution, will never accommodate it. In the current reality, we are destined only to fight the long retreat.
    Translation: “We are wasting our time. We should just enjoy what we are able to do each day, and hope they go slow.”
    To show that men can travel to the moon and return, use the American experience.

    To show that public safety isnít hurt by responsible individuals carrying to protect life, use the American experience.

  6. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by CLW .45 View Post
    Translation: “We are wasting our time. We should just enjoy what we are able to do each day, and hope they go slow.”
    Wasting our time, hardly. There are ways for gun owners to change that outcome, it simply involves a different structure to Canada with a different distribution of powers. Constantly claiming that we simply need to demand a 2A equivalency gets nothing. The current make-up of Canada, with its central Canadian focus, will not accept a 2A or equivalent, that is reality.
    Last edited by Soph; 06-12-2019 at 08:18 AM.
    "The most important thing you can do in your life is not interfere with somebody else's life."

    -- Frank Zappa

  7. #26
    Senior Member Doug_M's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soph View Post
    That's largely because we do not have, in law, a fundamental right to bear arms as a backstop.
    The 2A is just as in danger as Canadian's right to bear arms. What I mean is with their political system the 2A can be trampled easily. Just takes Democrats appointing enough anti-2A judges in the right place. The fact Trump was able to appoint 1 SCOTUS judge and may appoint 1 or 2 more before he's done is what will protect the 2A for a time. But if Hilliary had won the 2A would be toast. It would be re-interpreted just as many Republican governed states are enacting abortion laws designed to bring up Roe V. Wade for a hopeful (to them) overturning.

    It may seem US gun owners have it easier than Canadians but the truth is we both have to continuously fight the gun grabbers. No matter what law is passed, they will never stop and when they have the levers of power they will pull them. We have to fight to the grave and hope we've left a generation behind us that will do the same.
    Make the Afghanistan War Memorial publicly accessible https://afghanistanwarmemorial.ca/
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  8. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug_M View Post

    It may seem US gun owners have it easier than Canadians but the truth is we both have to continuously fight the gun grabbers. No matter what law is passed, they will never stop and when they have the levers of power they will pull them. We have to fight to the grave and hope we've left a generation behind us that will do the same.
    "Easy" is a bit of a loaded term in this case, and I'd stay clear of it. The difference between the 2 countries (or, well, the US and everyone else) is that they DO have a 2A as a back stop in the US. That is critically important, and it changes how the fight unfolds there. I said in my last post that fighting these battles, contrary to CLW putting words in my mouth, is hardly something to back away from. The NRA, GOoA, etc exist in the US for the same reason the equivalents exist n Canada. Of course we must fight, but fight the battles that make sense and have the potential of gaining something meaningful.

    The effect of the State's power in the US relative to that of the Province in Canada is a good example of what I was driving at. In the US, the State's can authorize Constitutional Carry (see Wyoming as an example). Variance in Carry laws from state to state show us "shall allow", "may allow" or Constitutional Carry as guidelines. Other areas of differing oversight regarding ownership, storage, etc as well as the freedom of Sherrif's (or not) are important from State to State. As a result there will always be a variance from one state to another throughout the US on gun ownership and use.

    That is important, and a lesson for Canadian gun owners in this fight. In the US if you are a gun owner you may CHOOSE to live in Wyoming because it is better suited to your beliefs and needs, and stay away from New York because it greatly restricts those beliefs or needs. In Canada, that choice does not exist. What applies in Toronto is what applies in Prince George.

    Working for common sense and regionally/provincially specific laws across Canada...well, that might get you some where.

    ...or it may not. Fortunately there is always Wyoming!
    "The most important thing you can do in your life is not interfere with somebody else's life."

    -- Frank Zappa

  9. #28
    Senior Member labradort's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CLW .45 View Post
    Become America?

    Canada has now, and has always had, provision for carry and possession to protect life.

    Our laws and regulations have mimicked American laws for decades.

    Similar laws are found in virtually every nation on earth.

    Some nations actually recognize the rights of the individual, America does to an extent.

    We don’t want Canada to become America, Britain, Japan, Trinidad, or Zambezi.

    We just want our rights recognized and protected - all of them.

    Anyone who thinks that is asking too much is part of the problem!
    Canada's laws actually have more linkage and heritage with Britain. What we share with the United States aside from cultural exchange and trading, is the notion of a frontier land and a place where class and one's last name doesn't limit your chances of success. All of the free world values freedom, but what that actually looks like varies widely.

    I don't believe Canada would ever adopt the concept and legal right (rather than privilege granted by license) to carry a firearm. It would take a huge cultural shift or change in day-to-day life in Canada before it could be seen as desirable by a majority of Canadians. Like Britain, Canadian values and culture tends to go with the concept of "the public good" before the concept of individual rights. Not everyone sees it that way, but it is likely the case for well over the majority of Canadians.

    For myself, it is easy to say I'd enjoy the right to carry a firearm any time I please. As I write this, I'm wearing a t-shirt with a large Ruger logo in the center. But I've also sat in a Burger King and played an imaginary game of supposing each person entering had a concealed carry. My conclusion was I don't have that much faith in humanity.

  10. #29
    Senior Member Waterloomike's Avatar
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    Cuba nearing starvation status.

    Socialists running things will take your guns and then your food.

    Prepare.
    Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual.

    Thomas Jefferson

  11. #30
    Senior Member CLW .45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by labradort View Post
    Canada's laws actually have more linkage and heritage with Britain. What we share with the United States aside from cultural exchange and trading, is the notion of a frontier land and a place where class and one's last name doesn't limit your chances of success. All of the free world values freedom, but what that actually looks like varies widely.

    I don't believe Canada would ever adopt the concept and legal right (rather than privilege granted by license) to carry a firearm. It would take a huge cultural shift or change in day-to-day life in Canada before it could be seen as desirable by a majority of Canadians. Like Britain, Canadian values and culture tends to go with the concept of "the public good" before the concept of individual rights. Not everyone sees it that way, but it is likely the case for well over the majority of Canadians.

    For myself, it is easy to say I'd enjoy the right to carry a firearm any time I please. As I write this, I'm wearing a t-shirt with a large Ruger logo in the center. But I've also sat in a Burger King and played an imaginary game of supposing each person entering had a concealed carry. My conclusion was I don't have that much faith in humanity.
    Actually, Canada’s restrictions on carry to protect life have historically been much more akin to the American than the British.

    The Brits based their restrictive system on the idea that those who possessed handguns lawfully could do everything that was lawful to do, including carry to protect life, without further permission from the authorities.

    Canadians and Americans, on the other hand, based their restrictive systems on the idea that, while one might lawfully possess a handgun, carry to protect life was forbidden without further permission.

    Generally, Canadians and Americans could not carry concealed without a permit.

    American rules varied from no permit required (VT), to no concealed carry allowed (AZ), while Canadians anywhere could carry with a permit.

    Until the seventies and beyond, some Canadian jurisdictions were actually more liberal with permit issuance than were a significant number of American jurisdictions.

    While our access to permits tanked, beginning in those years, American jurisdictions began (in the eighties) to move away from the may issue system common to both countries.

    While the uneducated will tell you that the positive change in the States was because of second amendment protections, the simple fact is that the change came because stubborn individuals ignored their timid brethren in the NRA and elsewhere.

    They refused to accept the generally held opinion that concealed carry was not a protected action, something that has not yet been ruled on, and pushed unwilling politicians to pass shall issue laws that those selfsame politicians were certain would be disastrous.

    You see, from where we stand, there is not and will not be a political leader who is on the side of those who see firearms as lifesaving tools, rather than toys.

    In fact, because all politicians see firearms as weapons, the hobbyists among us are unlikely to find a truly friendly government until we resolve the issue of use, carriage, and possession to protect life.
    Last edited by CLW .45; 06-18-2019 at 09:44 AM.
    To show that men can travel to the moon and return, use the American experience.

    To show that public safety isnít hurt by responsible individuals carrying to protect life, use the American experience.

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