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  1. #31
    Member awndray's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zinilin View Post
    The root cause of what you call "good moral values and respect for humanity" is based on the founding religion.
    A community with a different founding religion will have different idea of what "good moral values and respect for humanity" means.

    Work it back to the root cause. All those things; reasonable, moral and good are different in different civilizations because of different founding religions.

    Are you aware of a civilization today (or at any time in the past) on Earth where the basic law of the society deviates from the tenants of the founding religion?
    You keep saying "the founding religion". Which religion are you referring to? There are societies that operate without invoking your God. They have their own belief system. Incidentally, they're not going around the world trying to impart their beliefs.

    Are you trying to tell us that religion is the source of all goodness? Your explanation of where good moral values confuses me. As an atheist, I share this world with many people who follow their own religion or belief system.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zinilin View Post
    If you examine the basic laws in 'Western' legal systems you can map the fundamentals to the 10 Commandments.
    Likewise if you examine the basic laws in 'Arab' and 'Persian' legal systems you can map the fundamentals to the Koran.

    Like it or not, the basis of the different legal systems worldwide and the fundamental norms of different societies are based on the religious beliefs that once formed the core of the community that developed into those civilizations.

    You many not be religious; but if you believe that 'Thou shall not kill' is right and that 'Children that dishonor a family must be killed' is wrong then ask yourself; where does that belief come from, where did you get your right and wrong.
    Well, not to get into a deep religious discussion, but the answer to that from my end is simple...man created god in his image, not the other way around..The tenants you speak of (and I certainly do not disagree as to their foundational principles) are laws of men, not "gods".
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  3. #33
    Senior Member Doug_M's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by awndray View Post
    You keep saying "the founding religion". Which religion are you referring to? There are societies that operate without invoking your God. They have their own belief system. Incidentally, they're not going around the world trying to impart their beliefs.

    Are you trying to tell us that religion is the source of all goodness? Your explanation of where good moral values confuses me. As an atheist, I share this world with many people who follow their own religion or belief system.
    It’s quite simple Awndray. Western civilization is what it is largely because of Christianity. That isn’t to say that you or I are “moral” today directly because of it, but rather indirectly as society as a whole shares that morality (decay aside). I may be an atheist as are my parents, but my grand parents weren’t nor were my great grandparents and so on. The values I have were passed on to me generation by generation, founded solidly in basic Christian beliefs of how you behave and treat people.

    EDIT: and no, those beliefs didn’t exist by and large before Christianity.
    Dictionary of the future:
    Global Warming was a popular computer simulation game,
    where the only way to win was not to play.

  4. #34
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    I will keep out of the religious argument for now.

    This particular issue...which is just the tired old "Harpers Secret Agenda" play rehashed for Scheer is backfiring spectacularly as it is highlighting senior Liberal Party members voting records and comments from the past...when a distaste for gay marriage was a mainstream, commonsense and completely normal position for centrist politicians.

    Its an obvious ploy and people see through it.

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  6. #35
    Senior Member RangeBob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug_M View Post
    EDIT: and no, those beliefs didn’t exist by and large before Christianity.
    Technically, before Judaeo-Christianity. At least in the sense of influencing western Law (statute and common and even religious law).
    Judaeo-Christianity strongly influenced Locke, who in turn strongly influenced the American Founding Fathers writing of their constitution.

    Love your neighbor as yourself
    -- Leviticus, 19:18

    Some of the ideas are repeated earlier (e.g. the one I just mentioned from Leviticus can be traced back 2000 years before Christ in India, and also appeared in Greece). But in the earlier versions they're given less stress, less importance, and less fame; relative to competing themes. Judaeo-Christianity famously calls that one "The Golden Rule".

  7. #36
    Senior Member Zinilin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by awndray View Post
    ... There are societies that operate without invoking your God. ..
    I don't have a god. I was just responding to a comment by Soph "...Now, when you try and incorporate the powers of your church (any "church") into that of the state, THEN we've got some issues!" and indicated that regardless of your theism or lack thereof, your society, norms, morals and laws are the result of the founding religion of your civilization.

    Awndry, I did specifically, in an earlier comment illustrate two diametrically opposite basic moral positions on killing, that within their own civilization, were considered 'right', 'proper' and 'moral'. My comment noted that the one that you subscribe to is based of the founding religion of your civilization. Not one religion, or (if I had one) mine.

    If you read what I wrote you will not see any mention of 'my' god.

  8. #37
    Senior Member RangeBob's Avatar
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    Why the Liberals turned Scheer's same-sex marriage speech into a political weapon

    Aug 23 2019
    Parliament has not been asked to consider the question in nearly 13 years. There is no serious push to revisit the issue or repeal the law.
    Justin Trudeau has governed imperfectly and the urgency some voters felt in 2015 has dissipated.
    For the Liberals, one possible way to re-energize that electorate and rally it behind them is to tell voters that this election is a choice.
    That would explain why, on an otherwise unremarkable morning in mid-August, video of Scheer speaking in the House of Commons in 2005 appeared on Twitter.
    Scheer was hardly alone in opposing the Civil Marriage Act: at third reading, the legislation passed by a vote of 158-133. Those who voted against the bill included 93 Conservative MPs, 32 Liberals and one New Democrat. (The Conservatives, at the time, were proposing that same-sex couples could instead be covered by "civil unions.")
    -- https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/and...dale-1.5256095
    11,507 comments at link.

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  9. #38
    Senior Member LB303's Avatar
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    Kids who grow up without the male/female yin/yang in the house are missing out on a lot of life lessons regarding relationships.
    Not saying you can't obtain a low resolution facsimile from same sex partners
    Who cares what I think, I'm old

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  11. #39
    Canadian ForcesMember Billythreefeathers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LB303 View Post
    Kids who grow up without the male/female yin/yang in the house are missing out on a lot of life lessons regarding relationships.
    Not saying you can't obtain a low resolution facsimile from same sex partners
    Who cares what I think, I'm old
    Kids need two parents,,, GOOD COP,, BAD COP,, does not matter what is between the legs unless it's being used on the child
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  13. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by LB303 View Post
    Kids who grow up without the male/female yin/yang in the house are missing out on a lot of life lessons regarding relationships.
    Not saying you can't obtain a low resolution facsimile from same sex partners
    Who cares what I think, I'm old
    Jordan Peterson has written a fair bit about this, specifically the absence of a strong masculine presence in households, and its effects. Its interesting stuff and touches on your comments.
    "If voting made any difference, they wouldn't let us do it."

    -- Mark Twain

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