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  1. #11
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    Thats fine and dandy,but what if you are old and frail and a firearm is your only defence.

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  3. #12
    Senior Member Two For Sure's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Relic49 View Post
    Thats fine and dandy,but what if you are old and frail and a firearm is your only defence.
    Read the second quote in the post above yours. It's taken into account subsection 2(e)

    • (e) the size, age, gender and physical capabilities of the parties to the incident;

  4. #13
    Senior Member Zinilin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Two For Sure View Post
    I have read it before. This subsection in particular.


    Other means would include retreat if it were an available option which is hardly "stand your ground."
    You may be misinterpreting the single phrase to support your incorrect opinion.

    I don't know if any of my children, my wife or I could outrun an attacker.
    Trying to outrun a young adult male is not an option for most people.
    Running from your home in the winter in Canada is not an option.

    Old people don't run.
    I can't think of a single situation, not one, where running away will help when someone else is being attacked.

    In the vast majority of situation, for almost all potential victims, running away is not a solution to the threat of a violent attack.

    PS.
    Your right/duty to Pursue, and use force to Arrest and Detain a criminal is recognized in the Act.
    Your right/duty to run towards an attacker and use force to defend others recognized in the Act.


    For detailed interpretation see:

    Bill C-26 (S.C. 2012 c. 9) Reforms to Self-Defence and Defence of Property: Technical Guide for Practitioners

    Prime Minister Harper made it clear in 2012 that Canadians are no longer expected to run away from criminals.

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  6. #14
    Senior Member Two For Sure's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zinilin View Post
    You may be misinterpreting the single phrase to support your incorrect opinion.

    I don't know if any of my children, my wife or I could outrun an attacker.
    Trying to outrun a young adult male is not an option for most people.
    Running from your home in the winter in Canada is not an option.

    Old people don't run.
    I can't think of a single situation, not one, where running away will help when someone else is being attacked.

    In the vast majority of situation, for almost all potential victims, running away is not a solution to the threat of a violent attack.

    PS.
    Your right/duty to Pursue, and use force to Arrest and Detain a criminal is recognized in the Act.
    Your right/duty to run towards an attacker and use force to defend others recognized in the Act.


    For detailed interpretation see:

    Bill C-26 (S.C. 2012 c. 9) Reforms to Self-Defence and Defence of Property: Technical Guide for Practitioners

    Prime Minister Harper made it clear in 2012 that Canadians are no longer expected to run away from criminals.
    The legislation and the technical guide are quite clear and nowhere does it suggest a "duty" to run towards an attack and use force. To conclude otherwise is courting a long prison sentence (pun intended.) We may no longer be expected to run but should you have the opportunity to retreat to safety with no risk to others it's the intelligent choice to make.

  7. #15
    Senior Member Zinilin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Two For Sure View Post
    The legislation and the technical guide are quite clear and nowhere does it suggest a "duty" to run towards an attack and use force. To conclude otherwise is courting a long prison sentence (pun intended.) We may no longer be expected to run but should you have the opportunity to retreat to safety with no risk to others it's the intelligent choice to make.
    For some people duty is a thing.

    However, every Canadian has the same right to run towards an attack and use force to stop an attack.
    Police don't have any special rights....

    One of the reasons for the legislation was the pursuit, arrest and forcible detention of a shoplifter by David Chen, Jie Chen and Qing Li in 2009. They were initially charged with assault, forcible confinement, carrying a concealed weapon and kidnapping, however they were eventually acquitted; the court determined that they did was lawful.

    Another was from 1986 when Angelique Lyn Lavallee shot her abusive husband in the back of the head as he left the room. That was eventually determined by the supreme court to have been self defence.

    In another case in 2011 Kevin Joshua Neil in was being threatened by people in a pick-up truck on his front lawn, he went into his home, got a rifle, loaded it, went back outside and shot the driver in the face. Justice Cacchione ruled that Neil acted in self defence.

    Prime Minister Harper clarified Canadians right of self-defence, their right to defend others and their right to police their surroundings.

    For some people duty is a thing.

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  9. #16
    Senior Member Zinilin's Avatar
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    In Quebec: "Every human being whose life is in peril has a right to assistance...Every person must come to the aid of anyone whose life is in peril, either personally or calling for aid, by giving him the necessary and immediate physical assistance, unless it involves danger to himself or a third person, or he has another valid reason."

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  11. #17
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    Another excellent conversation on the topic,

    In the end, I have the right to.... defend myself or others, any law limiting anyone in doing so is in violation of my rights and therefor unlawful. You can not and will not limit my ability to preserve my life or the life of another.

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  13. #18
    Senior Member RangeBob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blacksmithden View Post
    Nothing like kicking somebody when they're down.
    [from original post video]

    Oct 29 2012. A man named Jay Lewis. A middle-aged guy. Federal employee. Works in an office. Clean criminal record. So clean he has a licence to carry a concealed handgun in public. He's attacked on the street by two men of another color. They decide it would be an excellent idea to physically assault him. He draws his gun. He orders them vehemently to stay back, 11 times. They lunge, disparity of force is in play, he fires. One man is shot across the pectoral muscle under the bicep and the two of them decide 'you know what? It's not fun being two coyotes on a bunny when the bunny shoots back. We're leaving now.' Does anybody have a problem with that act of self defence? Jay Lewis who fired was African-american. His two attackers including the one who was wounded were Caucasian. J Lewis was arrested. J Lewis was held on a six figure bond. On an ordinary working man's salary he could not afford. He stayed there rotting in jail. Meanwhile the folks who owned the apartment building where he lived, served a notice that said 'we understand you've just been arrested for shooting someone. You are altogether too scary and dangerous to live among us. Consider yourself evicted.' And they mailed it to him at his apartment address, and posted it on his door at his apartment. When they knew, or should have known, that he was in jail and could not receive them. And after he did not respond to that after the 30 days or whatever, they cleaned out his apartment. Put his furniture, his clothing, his computers, including a novel he was writing, out on the front lawn to be stolen by whomever came by, and of course they all were. And after 112 days in jail, the prosecution dropped the majority of charges, took him to trial on the rest, and the jury said collectively 'are you kidding us?' and rendered the acquittal. Does that mean the system works? To an extent it does. The man was literally homeless. Damn near penniless. That's not the way justice should work. It was to prevent things like that that civil rights activists, their efforts have given us the Stand Your Ground laws in many states. They are moving now to put that law into Iowa to prevent the kind of injustice that Jay Lewis suffered.
    -- Massad Ayoob on Stand Your Ground Laws, May 10 2012, irnD34P2l1w

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  15. #19
    Senior Member spider69's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Justice View Post
    "...arming oneself for self defense..." That is no longer a reason to own a firearm under the FA. If you even mention SD you will be denied.
    This only applies if applying for a license to carry an "R" class firearm for non-employment purposes. Security guards carry as a matter of course in Canada. Statements like yours should never be used as a blanket catch-all. It's simply not accurate. Canadian case law is full of incidents where people have used deadly force in cases of home invasion. In the vast majority,none ever went to trial and in some cases,charges were never laid. If you care to do some research here is the website. www.canlii.ca
    It's been said that you can't fix stupid. Turns out you can't quarantine it,either.

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  17. #20
    Senior Member Two For Sure's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spider69 View Post
    This only applies if applying for a license to carry an "R" class firearm for non-employment purposes. Security guards carry as a matter of course in Canada. Statements like yours should never be used as a blanket catch-all. It's simply not accurate. Canadian case law is full of incidents where people have used deadly force in cases of home invasion. In the vast majority,none ever went to trial and in some cases,charges were never laid. If you care to do some research here is the website. www.canlii.ca
    I do not own a firearm for defensive purposes. I have never purchased a firearm for defensive purposes. I do have several that would be excellent for that purpose if called upon.

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