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  1. #21
    Senior Member spider69's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIR VEYOR View Post
    So...
    6b(I) and c(I)

    I could store a restricted in a locking toolbox, with ammo in the toolbox, provided the restricted has a trigger lock on it?

    And a non-res with a trigger lock can be kept anywhere? It doesn’t need to be inside a locked room/closet?

    Got asked about bare minimum legal requirements and was wondering how close to the line one can wander...
    Correct.
    You'll make better progress if you get out of your own way.

  2. #22
    Senior Member RangeBob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIR VEYOR View Post
    Got asked about bare minimum legal requirements and was wondering how close to the line one can wander...
    There are two criminal code sections about safe storage. One is about violating the regulations. The other is about negligence.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by RangeBob View Post
    There are two criminal code sections about safe storage. One is about violating the regulations. The other is about negligence.
    And does ammo in a locked box with a trigger locked restricted cross over into negligence? I Vaguely remember the court case about the rifle leaning on a welder with ammo in a nearby drawer, and that was deemed Acceptable with consternation?

  4. #24
    Senior Member RangeBob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIR VEYOR View Post
    And does ammo in a locked box with a trigger locked restricted cross over into negligence?
    If there's something unusual, then complying with the regulations may be insufficient.

    for example, given

    Storage of Non-Restricted Firearms

    5 (1) An individual may store a non-restricted firearm only if

    (a) it is unloaded;

    (b) it is

    (i) rendered inoperable by means of a secure locking device,

    (ii) rendered inoperable by the removal of the bolt or bolt-carrier, or

    (iii) stored in a container, receptacle or room that is kept securely locked and that is constructed so that it cannot readily be broken open or into; and

    (c) it is not readily accessible to ammunition, unless the ammunition is stored, together with or separately from the firearm, in a container or receptacle that is kept securely locked and that is constructed so that it cannot readily be broken open or into.

    (2) Paragraph (1)(b) does not apply to any individual who stores a non-restricted firearm temporarily if the individual reasonably requires it for the control of predators or other animals in a place where it may be discharged in accordance with all applicable Acts of Parliament and of the legislature of a province, regulations made under such Acts, and municipal by-laws.

    (3) Paragraphs (1)(b) and (c) do not apply to an individual who stores a non-restricted firearm in a location that is in a remote wilderness area that is not subject to any visible or otherwise reasonably ascertainable use incompatible with hunting.

    If you were to "store" your rifles, by putting trigger locks on them,
    and then suspending them on small pieces of string on the front yard under your 20'x8' billboard that says "FREE GUNS",
    that would be negligence.

    There are probably more realistic examples of negligence.


    Quote Originally Posted by SIR VEYOR View Post
    I Vaguely remember the court case about the rifle leaning on a welder with ammo in a nearby drawer, and that was deemed Acceptable with consternation?
    that might be R. v Rusk 2000
    http://canlii.ca/t/1l7qg
    although that was two rifles leaning on a welder with ammo in a nearby drawer.


    going the other way, we have R. v. Libon (2013).

    "The RCMP knows that gun owners are low hanging fruit. They have these easy charges that they can lay under these storage regulations, for which there is no defense. And here's how bizarre it gets. I came across a case from B.C. a while back and if I didn't read this I'd think somebody had made it up. A fellow in B.C. was convicted of unsafe storage because he had ammunition too close to the firearm. But here's the thing. The firearm was a .22, the ammunition was shotgun shells. The judge upheld the conviction because there was no evidence that the gun couldn't be modified to accommodate shotgun shells."
    -- Lawyer Rick Hemmingson
    Last edited by RangeBob; 09-17-2020 at 01:26 PM.

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  6. #25
    Senior Member spider69's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RangeBob View Post
    If there's something unusual, then complying with the regulations may be insufficient.

    for example, given

    Storage of Non-Restricted Firearms

    5 (1) An individual may store a non-restricted firearm only if

    (a) it is unloaded;

    (b) it is

    (i) rendered inoperable by means of a secure locking device,

    (ii) rendered inoperable by the removal of the bolt or bolt-carrier, or

    (iii) stored in a container, receptacle or room that is kept securely locked and that is constructed so that it cannot readily be broken open or into; and

    (c) it is not readily accessible to ammunition, unless the ammunition is stored, together with or separately from the firearm, in a container or receptacle that is kept securely locked and that is constructed so that it cannot readily be broken open or into.

    (2) Paragraph (1)(b) does not apply to any individual who stores a non-restricted firearm temporarily if the individual reasonably requires it for the control of predators or other animals in a place where it may be discharged in accordance with all applicable Acts of Parliament and of the legislature of a province, regulations made under such Acts, and municipal by-laws.

    (3) Paragraphs (1)(b) and (c) do not apply to an individual who stores a non-restricted firearm in a location that is in a remote wilderness area that is not subject to any visible or otherwise reasonably ascertainable use incompatible with hunting.

    If you were to "store" your rifles, by putting trigger locks on them,
    and then suspending them on small pieces of string on the front yard under your 20'x8' billboard that says "FREE GUNS",
    that would be negligence.

    There are probably more realistic examples of negligence.




    that might be R. v Rusk 2000
    http://canlii.ca/t/1l7qg
    although that was two rifles leaning on a welder with ammo in a nearby drawer.


    going the other way, we have R. v. Libon (2013).

    "The RCMP knows that gun owners are low hanging fruit. They have these easy charges that they can lay under these storage regulations, for which there is no defense. And here's how bizarre it gets. I came across a case from B.C. a while back and if I didn't read this I'd think somebody had made it up. A fellow in B.C. was convicted of unsafe storage because he had ammunition too close to the firearm. But here's the thing. The firearm was a .22, the ammunition was shotgun shells. The judge upheld the conviction because there was no evidence that the gun couldn't be modified to accommodate shotgun shells."
    -- Lawyer Rick Hemmingson
    I sure hope that one is going to The Court of Appeal. That Judge was a moron.
    You'll make better progress if you get out of your own way.

  7. #26
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    The question is, was this not covered on your PAL course?
    "...cross over into negligence?..." Negligence is what the cops will say when they're blaming you for becoming the victim of a crime and have your property stolen. A locking toolbox would result in the whole thing being stolen. Said tool box bolted to the floor is better.
    One needs to remember that logic does not apply. None of these laws/regulations are meant to aid you in any way.

  8. #27
    The Gunsmithing Moderator blacksmithden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Justice View Post
    The question is, was this not covered on your PAL course?
    "...cross over into negligence?..." Negligence is what the cops will say when they're blaming you for becoming the victim of a crime and have your property stolen. A locking toolbox would result in the whole thing being stolen. Said tool box bolted to the floor is better.
    One needs to remember that logic does not apply. None of these laws/regulations are meant to aid you in any way.
    My pal course was so long ago I cant remember where I even did it. Do YOU remember everything you were ever taught ? This site is to help people out, not chastise them.
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  10. #28
    Senior Member Gunrunner's Avatar
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    You might forget the technical stuff like how many mm a 18.5 inch barrel is but you don't forget the basics like not leaving loaded firearms unattended where curious kids are playing or muzzle control (not pointing guns at people).
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  11. #29
    Senior Member Gunrunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RangeBob View Post
    13).

    "The RCMP knows that gun owners are low hanging fruit. They have these easy charges that they can lay under these storage regulations, for which there is no defense. And here's how bizarre it gets. I came across a case from B.C. a while back and if I didn't read this I'd think somebody had made it up. A fellow in B.C. was convicted of unsafe storage because he had ammunition too close to the firearm. But here's the thing. The firearm was a .22, the ammunition was shotgun shells. The judge upheld the conviction because there was no evidence that the gun couldn't be modified to accommodate shotgun shells."
    -- Lawyer Rick Hemmingson
    ... anti-gun activist cops, crown attorneys and judges are par for the course up here in Canada and getting more common every day ... if you are unfortunate enough to run into all 3 you are f'ked regardless of the circumstances because they have already made up their minds that you have committed anti-social behavior solely by owning a gun or even wanting to own a gun.
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  12. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by blacksmithden View Post
    My pal course was so long ago I cant remember where I even did it. Do YOU remember everything you were ever taught ? This site is to help people out, not chastise them.
    That is nice to know.............thanks !!
    Nothing will F--k you up as much as the realization that there's no real reason the alphabet needs to be in order !!

    There is no such thing as left over bacon !!

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