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  1. #21
    Senior Member Strangeday's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blacksmithden View Post
    They will fight this in court and drag it out for years while the lawyers take half of any settlement in fees.
    As some people are aware I had a long running case with a large Canadian city that finally went to trial last year. I won. It started in 1997.
    Calvin Martin, Q.C. 1933 - 2014

    I would like to apologize to anyone i have not offended. Please be patient. I will get to you shortly.


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  3. #22
    Senior Member barkerlakebob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strangeday View Post
    As some people are aware I had a long running case with a large Canadian city that finally went to trial last year. I won. It started in 1997.
    The usual trick is to try and run the small guy ( aka taxpayer ) out of money first - and failing that, out of court settlement - and failing that, see ya in court

    J.M.E. ( experience )
    Nothing will F--k you up as much as the realization that there's no real reason the alphabet needs to be in order !!

    There is no such thing as left over bacon !!

  4. #23
    Senior Member CLW .45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brad View Post
    Backflow valves are a wonderful thing.

    Sure they are, until some idiot forces concrete up the pipe to the backup valve, seizing it shut.

    At which point your sewage is not leaving your home.

    A one way valve that doesn’t allow flow in either direction is a disaster, just as flow both ways can be.
    Gun Control is about making it unlawful for you to use, carry, or possess a firearm.

    All restrictions/prohibitions on the use, carriage, or possession of firearms must be repealed.

    Middle ground?

    What middle ground?

  5. #24
    Bladesmith
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    Quote Originally Posted by CLW .45 View Post
    Sure they are, until some idiot forces concrete up the pipe to the backup valve, seizing it shut.

    At which point your sewage is not leaving your home.

    A one way valve that doesn’t allow flow in either direction is a disaster, just as flow both ways can be.
    A backflow valve is better than sewage or concrete all over your floor. I would rather have to fix from the valve to the main then from the main to your house and re plumb the house plus fix the damaged floors, etc.

  6. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brad View Post
    A backflow valve is better than sewage or concrete all over your floor. I would rather have to fix from the valve to the main then from the main to your house and re plumb the house plus fix the damaged floors, etc.
    Since this is a “combination” sewer system, the drains around the foundations are likely clogged as well. So still lotsa problems even with the back flow installed. As for mandatory for insurance, I haven’t heard it being part of code. Different companies have different rules, kinda like for wood stoves. And anyone I asked over the last few years who built, never heard of such a thing, but would have if they’d known. Doesn’t seem like plumbers are pushing the idea much.

  7. #26
    Moderator kennymo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIR VEYOR View Post
    Since this is a “combination” sewer system, the drains around the foundations are likely clogged as well. So still lotsa problems even with the back flow installed. As for mandatory for insurance, I haven’t heard it being part of code. Different companies have different rules, kinda like for wood stoves. And anyone I asked over the last few years who built, never heard of such a thing, but would have if they’d known. Doesn’t seem like plumbers are pushing the idea much.
    Most insurance companies won’t offer you extensive flood coverage for basement repairs and contents without one.

    Some new homes have had whole home backwater valves (normally open with foam floats to raise the gate) installed. I believe it was mandatory for new construction here briefly, but I think they’ve backed away from it because they require regular maintenance (which nobody does) to remain operational. Most of the older homes just have one installed in the floor drain, so most of your basement is probably coming out to get at it anyway. Other basement plumbing is typically on a normally closed (gravity operated flap), much more reliable, but if you get a backup with some pressure behind it (like this one apparently had), it just forces everything to go up the stack and exit on the main floor instead, ruining both the upstairs and the downstairs via gravity. Fortunately backups with enough head pressure to get above ground level are rare. Usually it’s someone jetting out the sewer main and hitting a bad clog.
    Sounds like some of these homes still have a running trap vented through the foundation wall, with the concrete coming out on the sidewalk outside.
    The old weeping tile in Winnipeg was usually piped to a catch basin built around the floor drain. Anyone with a functioning backwater valve would be OK in that regard, without one you’d probably see the concrete backed into the tile under the basement floor a bit. Any businesses with roof drains in the area would probably have some issues.
    Cleverly disguised as a responsible adult.

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    SIR VEYOR (06-11-2021)

  9. #27
    Senior Member M1917 Enfield's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brad View Post
    A backflow valve is better than sewage or concrete all over your floor. I would rather have to fix from the valve to the main then from the main to your house and re plumb the house plus fix the damaged floors, etc.
    I have a backflow valve installed in my house's basement at time of construction (1994) same with all the homes in my street and most of my suburb as it has been part of the city building code since the 1980's.

    About 10 years ago we had a very heavy rainfall that lasted 3 days and made worse because we had had a recent explosion of new homes and big box stores with huge hard surface carparks built that overwhelmed the local dual sewage/stormwater drain system from all the runoff.

    My house and nearly everyone in my street suffered a bad basement flooding (my next-door neighbors repair bill was $45,000). When the insurance assessor came to check on why we had so many new homes flooded he found that every home in the street (including mine) had the cover and internal seal left unscrewed from the time of construction. Apparently what we later found out was that while the city mandated the installation of the backflow valve's and had a city building inspector inspect them practice was and still is for the installer to not screw them tight so that the building inspector has no trouble opening them to carry out his code inspection.

    The city building inspector also never bothered to close them off either so that every home in our area has a backflow valve left unsealed and offering no protection and just waiting for a big enough storm or drain pressure backup to flood their basement. Even my father-in-law who had a new house built in 2009 about 4km from us also had his valve left unsealed and I showed him after he moved in and we closed it off properly. Every friend I have visited who lives in my area I tell them to check it and they are all found unsealed too.

    The insurance company was trying to get the city to pay for the damages but last I heard the city was holding fast and claiming it was the responsibility of the builder to close the valves off after the city code inspection and before the homeowner took possession.

    About a year later the city did dig up replace the main dual stormwater/sewage drain pipes with huge (about 6 foot internal diameter) new concrete ones that were about 3 times the internal size as the original ones to carry off the larger amount of storm run off from all the new development.

    I was home at the time of the flooding and witnessed the water backing up in my concrete floored basement as I happened to be working down there while the storm was happening and quickly grabbed a mop and bucket and was able to limit our damage (still came to $4,500).

    This is the type I have seen on inspection and we all have installed in our basements right up against our street front wall about a foot under the slab and next to the city water main feed, we also have another type and one connected to our basement floor drain near our hot water tank.


    This one is near my hot water tank -






    And this is the main one at the front of the house that if left unsealed backed up into the basement -










    As can be seen above if it is left unsealed it offers no backflow protection as the water flows from the right to the left normally but when coming back from the street goes from the left and if or as long as the access/inspection cover is screwed down tight will hit and close the flap preventing a backflow up your drain and toilets.



    I was told by a plumber friend that the city prefers this model as it allows visual inspection while sealed but they cost about $250 each compared to the cheaper ones shown that the builders install which they buy for $25 each.






    Warning! some sarcasm, facetious behavior, satire, irony, dry humor, playful banter and more may or may not be involved in my postings. Please read anything I have written as being said in the most joyful and happy voice you can imagine.

    To whom it may concern: I hereby declare I am not responsible for the debts incurred by one Justin Trudeau!

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    RangeBob (06-11-2021)

  11. #28
    Moderator kennymo's Avatar
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    The lower one is the one that was required (maybe still is? Haven’t done a new home in quite a while) here at the point where the city sewer enters the home. There’s a hinged panel laying on the bottom with a couple small foam floats attached. The floats tend to fall off with time, and they need regular cleaning or the gate gets sludged over and may not close in the event of a backup. The gravity operated style (the other one) is only allowed to serve fixtures in the basement here. Placed on the main sewer, they impede the venting action in the house and can make your fixtures do funny things.

    We weren’t allowed to install the type with the floats anywhere but the point where the sewer main enters the house, mostly due to unreliable performance from what I understand.
    Last edited by kennymo; 06-11-2021 at 12:23 PM.
    Cleverly disguised as a responsible adult.

  12. #29
    Senior Member M1917 Enfield's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kennymo View Post
    The lower one is the one that was required (maybe still is? Haven’t done a new home in quite a while) here at the point where the city sewer enters the home. There’s a hinged panel laying on the bottom with a couple small foam floats attached. The floats tend to fall off with time, and they need regular cleaning or the gate gets sludged over and may not close in the event of a backup. The gravity operated style (the other one) is only allowed to serve fixtures in the basement here. Placed on the main sewer, they impede the venting action in the house and can make your fixtures do funny things.
    All our houses here have a black ABS 3" or 4" always open main sewerage vent pipe that runs from our basement to and through the roof by about 2 feet. I remember coming close to it last winter when I was up on a ladder clearing excessive snow from my roof and the smell was not good coming from it and the air exiting it was very warm, felt like about +20 while the outside air that day was -10. When I was up checking in my attic the outside of the pipe before it exited the roof was covered in light frost or condensation on the outside of it.
    Warning! some sarcasm, facetious behavior, satire, irony, dry humor, playful banter and more may or may not be involved in my postings. Please read anything I have written as being said in the most joyful and happy voice you can imagine.

    To whom it may concern: I hereby declare I am not responsible for the debts incurred by one Justin Trudeau!

  13. #30
    Moderator kennymo's Avatar
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    Canadian code requires all houses to have at least one roof vent to prevent siphoning, gurgling, etc... at the fixtures. But in addition to being able to bring air in on top of the flowing water, you also need to be able to push air out in front of a large quantity of moving water. This is where the normally closed backflow valves can cause an issue. In household use, you probably wouldn’t notice much 99% of the time.
    Cleverly disguised as a responsible adult.

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