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  1. #11
    Senior Member Steve MKII's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimlock View Post
    You know, my name is on drawings in several TDPs, and I put little weight in what the military wants when I buy things. You're paying for a lot of crap that has nothing to do with actual quality. Half of the things in that chart are ones that I actively avoid when looking at an AR.
    It is just a standard one can use to help understand what you are getting for your money. Some companies exceed it, some follow it, some don't. KAC does not build to the TDP but many would say they are the BEST rifle on the market. some aspects are less relevant. If you want a sub MOA gun, getting a Noveske SS barrel would do you much better than a MIL-B-11595-E Chrome lined barrel. An accurate 4140 barrel is better than an inaccurate 4150 barrel. An H Buffer or a CL 1/7 twist barrel wont always be the best choice for the rifle's intended use.

    Some aspects are more important. Having a properly staked gas key and a staked castle nut is rather important. In spec tolerances are important. an out of spec magwell is going to make your rifle not so useful when mags don't drop free. It also gives an idea of durability. Is the bolt (the part that sees the most wear) made out of Carpenter 158 steel? something weaker? something stronger? testing procedures? was it HPT and MPI? knowing this gives you a idea how long things might last.

    The TDP is not the be all end all, and it is an evolving document. If OP was looking for a sub MOA gun or something for a specific need, a rifle built to it might not be best. but for a general purpose rilfe, a BCM will beat a bushmaster every time. the extra $350 is well worth it for the upgrades you get over a Bushmaster, will give him a more durable rifle and will probably save OP money in the long run. The other aspect is simply QC. BCM, DD, KAC, etc are all known to have much better quality control than Bushmaster, Stag or DPMS
    Last edited by Steve MKII; 04-24-2018 at 12:19 PM.

  2. #12
    Senior Member AskPermissionFollowOrders's Avatar
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    Ruger AR-556 or S&W

    For somewhat more, LE6920.
    What Would Pinochet Do?|||Make Alberta Great Again|||Drain The Swamp|||The solutions to 1984 are 1776 and 1973|||

    "I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man." --Thomas Jefferson, letter to Benjamin Rush, 1800

    In 1967, Polish mercenary Rafal Ganowicz was asked what it felt like to take human life, I wouldn't know, I've only ever killed communists" was his response.

  3. #13
    Senior Member Sabio's Avatar
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    Ah. The TDP chart.... shoot me now

    Many Ar15s exceed the TDP.

    My LWRC has a one piece bolt and gas key...so no staking.
    Technically it doesn't meet this charts requirements.

    But sure exceeds it.
    Previously- Rivetc78 from CGN

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  5. #14
    Senior Member AskPermissionFollowOrders's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sabio View Post
    Ah. The TDP chart.... shoot me now

    Many Ar15s exceed the TDP.

    My LWRC has a one piece bolt and gas key...so no staking.
    Technically it doesn't meet this charts requirements.

    But sure exceeds it.
    true

    but I wouldn't be surprised if most ARs which don't comply with TDP do so because of corner-cutting (not that there's necessarily anything wrong with that)
    What Would Pinochet Do?|||Make Alberta Great Again|||Drain The Swamp|||The solutions to 1984 are 1776 and 1973|||

    "I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man." --Thomas Jefferson, letter to Benjamin Rush, 1800

    In 1967, Polish mercenary Rafal Ganowicz was asked what it felt like to take human life, I wouldn't know, I've only ever killed communists" was his response.

  6. #15
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    Cabela's is offering $300 off tomorrow on Bushmaster QRC. I read a lot about and it draws me to get MP15 . I am looking for my first entry level restricted rifle and from what I have heard and read MP15 is the one to go for. I test fired in range and I loved. I guess another thing before buying a firearm is to rent at a range and use it.

  7. #16
    Senior Member RobertMcC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Singh View Post
    Cabela's is offering $300 off tomorrow on Bushmaster QRC. I read a lot about and it draws me to get MP15 . I am looking for my first entry level restricted rifle and from what I have heard and read MP15 is the one to go for. I test fired in range and I loved. I guess another thing before buying a firearm is to rent at a range and use it.
    Buy whatever you feel. Personally other than fit and finish they're all the same, except NEA. Their in a league of their own.
    When the rich wage war, It's the poor who die.

  8. #17
    Senior Member Steve MKII's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sabio View Post
    Ah. The TDP chart.... shoot me now

    Many Ar15s exceed the TDP.

    My LWRC has a one piece bolt and gas key...so no staking.
    Technically it doesn't meet this charts requirements.

    But sure exceeds it.
    Exactly my point. TDP is a baseline. Some manufacturers are well below, some are well above and some follow it. your BCG is above it.

    Quote Originally Posted by AskPermissionFollowOrders View Post
    true

    but I wouldn't be surprised if most ARs which don't comply with TDP do so because of corner-cutting (not that there's necessarily anything wrong with that)
    Typically, if its below TDP. But not adhering to the TDP Doesn't necessarily make it a bad rifle. Stainless Steel barrels are not TDP. Is anyone gonna say a Noveske with a SS barrel that shots Sub MOA is a POS? Doubtful. That's why its important to understand what TDP specs are and what they mean, so you know what matters to you when purchasing a rifle.

    Quote Originally Posted by RobertMcC View Post
    Buy whatever you feel. Personally other than fit and finish they're all the same, except NEA. Their in a league of their own.
    Sorry but this is just incorrect. There are so many differences...

    4140 Vs 4150 Barrel steel (4150 handles heat better)
    CHF vs button rifled barrel
    Barrel twist rate
    Barrel profile
    Chrome lined? (and if so, per mil spec?)
    Barrel finish (phosphate, melonite)
    7075 vs 6061 buffer tube
    Commercial vs mil spec buffer tube
    Properly staked gas key?
    Staked castle nut?
    In spec tolerances?
    Magwell flare (15 pieces of flare?)
    Forged vs billet receiver
    Bolt steel (carpenter 158?)
    Carrier steel
    BCG finish (phosphate, nickel boron etc)
    M16 vs semi auto bolt carrier profile.
    Heat treated parts per mil spec?
    M4 vs Commercial feed ramps
    Chamber (5.56 vs 223)
    Buffer weight
    Gas system length
    MPI and HPT barrel and bolt?
    Shot peened bolt?
    Anodized per MIL-A-8625F?
    Gas port size
    Quality Control

    And so on...

    We can debate the merits of each of these or any number of other differences but to say that all AR15's are the same is incorrect. Personally I would not put NEA in a league of their own. I would rate them on the lower end to lower mid end based on specs and QC issues. I am curious why you rate them in a league of their own? The only COTS AR15 I would maybe rate in a league of its own is KAC. The rest would either be top, mid or low tier.


    OP, The M&P15 should probably serve you well, and would be a good choice if you want to keep it under $1000. Though for about the same price I would get a PSA Freedom 15 over it, They have better specs for the price. I know Irunguns carries them. not sure who else.

    If you are willing to spend a bit more I would recommend something from BCM or a Colt LE6920. They Run about $1350 but will give you more rifle than the M&P

    Before you decide just make sure you read up on the specs of each rifle and what they mean and whether it is something you think is important or not, then make a decision from there. If you want a bit more info see this post from m4carbine. It covers a fair bit of the specs of an AR15 built to TDP. http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?55930-BCM-Stuff
    Last edited by Steve MKII; 06-01-2018 at 01:27 PM.

  9. #18
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    I would go Colt for your budget, standard Mil-spec platform and ease of accessibility of parts, as well as all around accessories.

  10. #19
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    I have the Bushie and it's been a great rifle (so far). I've only shot about 500 rounds through it, but I've had no jams, no problems at all. (I also own a Colt AR15A2 lower with an A1 upper, and I once owned a Colt Delta Elite AR-15, so I'm familiar with Colt AR's).

    OP, I don't think you could go wrong with it.

  11. #20
    Always against the grain Booletsnotreactwell's Avatar
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    You know part of the reason why the whole TDP chart doesn't exist anymore on the forums that used to push it is because things have come leaps and bounds since then.

    In the post AWB world, early 2k yes it mattered when the only real game in town for real quality was Colt and everything else was Olympic Arms level of quality or not much better.

    Nowadays it's meaningless and overblown if you ask me. I've seen complete junkers go into the 20,000+ round range without issue, I've personally taken an AR to the 18,000rd range without major parts failure, most of these features that set specific brands as better than others on that chart are only going to become apparent at extremely high round counts or abuse that the average user is never going to put on it. I'd feel perfectly fine taking a Bushmaster into combat and relying on it if I had to.

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