Alternative News Media - Where does it belong on GOC?

[loki]

I do agree with you Harbl, MSM is bought in order to not publish and air a good portion of current events.

However you do have to realize that these forums are businesses, and that does include GOC. Now GOC does hold itself to a different set of rules than other competing forums, but once they also become large enough to be pulling in + or - $75K by sponsorships and paying business members you can pretty well guarantee things will be a little different from the small community feeling we currently have here. At that point it would be in GOC's best interest to listen when the majority of paying businesses and sponsors say they don't want something on the site, and I wouldn't be suprised that if it comes to losing the sponsor base or tightening rules that GOC tightens some rules. The admin group may be against it now in wake of the past years events and this place still having new forum smell, but just wait until the decision is $$$$$$ vs rules and regulation and you can pretty well predict what will win out.

Of course a forum is useless without the membership, but I haven't noticed that large of an outcry, just the usual people that complain at every little change doing their usual (and this is as simple as smilies FFS). If 50% of the membership wanted alternative media and would walk without it, well then they might be listened to. As it is it's a very select few, and others that are also vocal just don't like limitiations on free speech (understandably, I'm one of them but I got over it as it's a PRIVATE owned business).

The hard truth of the matter is a sub-forum for tinfoilers might very well torpedo GOC's attempt at large sponsorships. If the big players in this industry wanted to advertise to the alternative media crowd then they would do so directly. I could very well see from a business prospective that if I were to choose from competing advertising agencies and my business depended on semi-professionalism I wouldn't go with the one who catered to the fringe element. Such a catering to the alternative media crowd could very well hurt GOC's attempt at sponsorship more than 'be well received', and if it is well received it's a select few members that don't bring any $$$$ to the table where as a sponsor does.

Now as I've explained it from a GOC perspective; why would it be any different with any other community also generating revenue through advertising? They're evil when they do it but GOC is good to do the same? You have to think of it as a business, and business may not do so well or look professional with a bunch of people constantly screaming "THE END IS FRIGGIN NIGH!!". Really what you're proposing is a Conservative version of Rabble, and you know what kind of credibility they have.

[harbl_the_cat]

I understand that principle very well, Loki. The thing though, is that not all of the alternative media is calling for the end of the world, and even then those that are make tangible recommendations surrounding how to practically prepare. Oddly enough, most of those recommendations favour physical preparedness and tangible investing. If anything, I think that is more of an attractive prospect for firearms businesses - since it basically is a large driver of demand for the products and services they offer.

I think the reality is that the main stream media is so caught up in maintaining a narrative that "Everything in the World is Fine, within some general constraints," that most of the narratives in the alternative media SEEM like they are pessimistic an calling for the EOTWAWKI. I think the reality though is that the main stream media is almost completely disconnected from reality, where as the alternative media has many outlets that are much more in tune with what is actually going on in the world.

[JustBen]

I think the reality though is that the main stream media is almost completely disconnected from reality, where as the alternative media has many outlets that are much more in tune with what is actually going on in the world.

I mean this in the most honest and sincere way possible; have you considered that maybe its the other way around? If alternative media were constantly correct in their predictions, it'd be one thing. More often than not, its the complete opposite. But hey, a broken clock is still right twice a day.

[harbl_the_cat]

I mean this in the most honest and sincere way possible; have you considered that maybe its the other way around? If alternative media were constantly correct in their predictions, it'd be one thing. More often than not, its the complete opposite. But hey, a broken clock is still right twice a day.

Like I said earlier, most of the alternate media is wrong, inaccurate, or has an agenda behind it. The thing is though, that the alternative media is ENORMOUS - compared to the main stream media which is really a small band of corporations all spouting the same thing.

The strength of the alternative media isn't that it's all accurate - but that it's interactive and that it can be held accountable by it's viewership - unlike the main stream media which are big corporations funded by other big corporations and government.

A good example is a channel I used to subscribe to called "The Day Trader Show" with an analyst named Don Harrold. He had some pretty good incites and stories on his channel/website - but when I dug into his archive of stories, I noticed there were some really big gaps. I dug a bit deeper and found some of his disgruntled viewers, listening to his advice, made some bad trades, missed out on some huge opportunities - and it cost them a lot of money. Being a bit of scheister, Don deleted all the videos and articles where he made bad calls from his website and channel. However, many of those bad calls were archived by his disgruntled ex-viewers - and when I watched them I was pretty surprised and stopped subscribing to his channel and visiting his website. Many others did the same and it's pretty evident in his subscriber base and website traffic.

Conversely, another analyst "StellaConcepts" made some absolutely brilliant calls (and a few bad ones) and he NEVER censored his channel (even when he made bad calls). So I regularly visit his site and subscribe to his channel, and so do many others.

The thing is the alternative media is the absolute embodiment of a free market. Providers of alternative news MUST have quality information, be honest and open or else they will get no viewers and thus, no revenue. That is not the case with the main stream media who, in all probability, if they ever hit on financial hard times from no-viewership, would either be bailed out by the government since they are "too big to fail." They will never get to that point because all the main stream media outlets are in bed with extremely large, well financed special interest who use them as propaganda tools. Just think about the US presidential elections - the MSM is the biggest tool in US politics and no one who can't afford to be on the MSM stands a chance at being elected.

The thing is, in order to get the most out of the alternative media, community involvement is necessary. There are a LOT of sharks out in the alternative media, but there are also a lot of genuine, honest, intelligent people as well. What I've observed if If an article has interesting or useful information, it gets shared. If it doesn't - it get's ignored - simple as that. This feedback loop is incredibly powerful, but harnessing it means allowing it's consumers to be unfettered and unregulated - which is why I think CGN made a BIG mistake essentially banning it from their site.

[loki]

The thing though, is that not all of the alternative media is calling for the end of the world

Sure, but I'll have to point out that a good portion is, that being said I can quote Blacksmithden for this one;

You put bear bait out 50 ft from camp, don't expect the bears not to eventually wind up IN camp as well.

In other words while there might be some, or even a majority should the membership remain mature, of relevant news articles should you open the gates to such a sub-forum expect a tribute to Alex Jones, etc, etc. Allowing for such an outlet will eventually cater to absolute nonsense tinfoil, axe to grind, and immature debates degrading into pure namecalling to win the debate.

This community is attempting a professional, family, and mature based feel that such a sub forum stands a very good chance of derailing. Once such a derail to the public image has occured it's hard to come back from, if it can be at all. Which again not to mention that from a limited supply of advertising funds a business will never tell you why they choose not to spend those funds with a business, they just vote with their wallet like most.

However either choice of a tinfoil sub-forum or not makes no real difference to me if that's what they want to do with this forum, I'm mature enough to not participate should I not want to. I just see it as the exact opposite of the values and direction that GOC has stated it stands for.

[harbl_the_cat]

Well maybe my choice of words is a bit silly. How about "Alternative Media" as opposed to "Tin-Foil hat."

The thing is, truth has a way of speaking for itself. What I see in the main stream media is a whole lot of half-truth and outright lies - in many cases deliberately so. Granted, in the alternate media you see the same thing, but if you look you also see the opposite.

Where you find the truth, I think it's worth sharing. My personal picks: Ron Paul, Peter Schiff, Michael Maloney, Marc Faber, Jim Rogers, Doug Casey, even Robert Kiyosaki (though he's more mainstream and a bit dodgy) you don't tend to hear about through the Main Stream Media - except to be lambasted and attacked. Through the alternative media if you really dig, you can hear what they said 10-15 years ago.

If you talk about "professionalism" genuine professionalism in my book is not afraid of the ugly reality of the world that's out there. True professionals don't discount anything, especially information sources, without engaging in critical thought and personal investigation first and after they have, are very specific in their reasoning and approach in doing so. To do the opposite, I'd say is completely unprofessional.

Also to your thought about ad revenue - the important thing to consider is that what drives advertisers isn't the just content on a site - it's the traffic. The thing I see about CGN, is that they have such large volume of traffic, (96,000 users) they can afford to implement policy that alienate some of their users.

My thought to having this discussion, is in wanting to see a web community that's an alternative to CGN and one way I think they can do that is by learning from a bad policy they are implementing over there that WILL cost them some users.

Personally, while I know the provisions in our countries legal framework surrounding free speech and association refer to public forums and not private businesses. I totally respect private businesses rights to do so - even if I disagree or do not benefit from such actions.

The thing is though, that I think there are LOTS of people and appropriately, lots of DEMAND for private businesses that welcome and facilitate free speech and association - even if the optics of that speech and association are unpopular.

The other thing is, vendors know that if you're an Alex Jones Tin Foil Hatter, if you're a crochety old Fudd, or if you're a tacticool airsoft Ninja - you still probably have a credit card, and I don't think most places willing to advertise on a site like CGN (or GOC) care if any of those people buy their products or services in a legal fashion.

[loki]

If you talk about "professionalism" genuine professionalism in my book is not afraid of the ugly reality of the world that's out there. True professionals don't discount anything, especially information sources, without engaging in critical thought and personal investigation first and after they have, are very specific in their reasoning and approach in doing so. To do the opposite, I'd say is completely unprofessional.

Sure. So what are you trying to achieve here with a sub forum that can't already be posted in; news and world headlines, prepping for the future, and off topic? There is currently no posting rules for the news forum like there is in CGN and you can post alternate media there. Why is a seperate sub forum required for something that can be posted in one of three places already?

[harbl_the_cat]

Sure. So what are you trying to achieve here with a sub forum that can't already be posted in; news and world headlines, prepping for the future, and off topic? There is currently no posting rules for the news forum like there is in CGN and you can post alternate media there. Why is a seperate sub forum required for something that can be posted in one of three places already?

I'm sorry, I kind of got into a philosophical rant about my beliefs surrounding the alternative media. If it's cool to post it in the news forum, that's cool too and I really appreciate GOC's tolerance.

I just got a bit carried away analysing CGN's move to censor it. I guess it kind of destroyed my faith in that place - seeing that there were a number of posters putting up alternative media articles and some good discussions on them - then the thought police mod-hammer hit.

It's too bad they have a pretty happening My Little Pony thread in their lounge forum, otherwise I'd probably never visit there (I tried and will keep trying to see if I can convince some other bronies to come here).

Again, my apologies (I tend to do that, but not with malicious intent).

[lone-wolf]

Par for the course, with regards to cgn.

[Satain]

[Camo tung]

Harbl you're going to have to humour me as I seem to have gotten myself confused. CGN has "limited" the discussion on their forum of so called "tin foil" issues. You listed a number of "authors" in the alternative media that you follow elsewhere. I believe you suggested a possible forum (or sub-forum) for discussion of those "alternative/tin foil" topics on this web site.

I'm missing the tie-in to GOC somehow. I personally don't follow the alternative media nor other theorists but do know that the discussions are out there on the web. IF interested, I could track them down on their own "turf" I imagine. Not all of my "needs" are met by GOC or CGN but I manage to sift through these sites as well as a host of others for the firearm/hunting/restoration information and news that interests me. If it's available elsewhere as you have mentioned, is it necessary to also have it available on this site? A narrow niche sub-forum doesn't appear to be a big draw in my humble opinion and this is where my confusion probably stems from.

Not flaming, just trying to follow the discussion.

[jonanddad]

Please note these are my personal views and not those of GOC.

As Loki pointed out we have sections now, news for any news, prepping for prepping, a gold/silver thread, etc. if people want a investing section we could look at making a sticky or maybe a sub section in prepping? Right now the membership is great with posting topics in the correct spots. If its about preparing for a week out in the bush it could go under prepping. OH NO!!!!! The Zombies are coming maybe best in OT, silver has a good chance of dropping by 5% would go in the silver thread, etc.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[harbl_the_cat]

Harbl you're going to have to humour me as I seem to have gotten myself confused. CGN has "limited" the discussion on their forum of so called "tin foil" issues. You listed a number of "authors" in the alternative media that you follow elsewhere. I believe you suggested a possible forum (or sub-forum) for discussion of those "alternative/tin foil" topics on this web site.

I'm missing the tie-in to GOC somehow. I personally don't follow the alternative media nor other theorists but do know that the discussions are out there on the web. IF interested, I could track them down on their own "turf" I imagine. Not all of my "needs" are met by GOC or CGN but I manage to sift through these sites as well as a host of others for the firearm/hunting/restoration information and news that interests me. If it's available elsewhere as you have mentioned, is it necessary to also have it available on this site? A narrow niche sub-forum doesn't appear to be a big draw in my humble opinion and this is where my confusion probably stems from.

Not flaming, just trying to follow the discussion.

I believe a thread rename is in order to clarify

... and done.

The thing about the alternative media is it absolutely epitomizes free market capitalism.

In a free market, word of mouth among consumers speaking positively or negatively about a product or services creates (or removes) demand for the product or service. If I read something I find useful and share it with others - if they read it and find it insightful as well, we have a discussion about it (building community). If more people find it useful they share it, and the supplier of that product/service sees increased demand for and appropriately increased profit incentive to continue to provide more of that same quality of service/product. The opposite is true as well - if someone finds something useless and share it - the supplier pays the price with the decreased reputation hurting their ability to bring their product to market as they take losses from the decreased demand.

Why do you think Feedback scores are so important? Because it's word of mouth about your reputation as both a producer and consumer.

As it relates to alternative news media - the same hold true. If I post something from Alex Jones or Glenn Beck that turns out to be total BS and I fanatically support them, my reputation is damaged but so does their reputation as well. Conversely, if I post something from The Dollar Vigilante or Sovereign Man - and what they say turns out to be true and helps people create value for themselves - my reputation improves as does those suppliers.

The thing is - when it comes to e-Commerce pushing tangible products is very difficult with razor thing margins and extraordinarily competition among suppliers. Where the big and eas(ier)y money is at is in generating ad revenue through increased traffic - this revenue being the very lifeblood of communities like GOC/CGN. That being said, all the cards are in the hands of users.

No users means no traffic means no ad revenue means no market to move tangible product.

Saavy young internet user does't think the way Boomers or older Gen-Xers do. They don't want to be told what to do and they want to test the boundaries they are in. Why do you think there's an enormous resurgence of young gun owners? I worked at a retail gun shop for 2 years and the VAST majority of my clients were young kids, 16 years old to early 30's. The reason being they have the tools to allow them to be amazingly well informed and they know how to use those tools to accumulate and aggregate information in a way their parents could never imagine.

They're not scared by the myriad of rules and regulations from 20 years ago - because they have the tools at their disposal to read them and the desire to try to understand them. Unlike their parents who were intimidated by the volume of inaccessible laws thrown their way into giving up their guns, young gun owners today simply shrug at those same laws because they have tools at their disposal to navigate through them.

Incidentally, I believe the vast majority of consumers of Alternative news media are people in the same demographic as these young gun owners - for the very same reason. Alternative news pushes boundaries the corporate main stream media NEVER will.

Ultimately, that's why I feel very passionately about the alternative media and why I think forums that are tailored to this kind of audience (gun owners) should not regulate alternative media AT ALL. It is a vast externally unregulated, internally self-regulating free market of information.

Moreover and most importantly, I think it represents the future and the best hope western civilization has at recovering from the fascist, debt-induced economic catastrophe that is on the brink of destroying the standard of living it enjoys.

[50calshooter]

I do agree with you Harbl, MSM is bought in order to not publish and air a good portion of current events.

However you do have to realize that these forums are businesses, and that does include GOC. Now GOC does hold itself to a different set of rules than other competing forums, but once they also become large enough to be pulling in + or - $75K by sponsorships and paying business members you can pretty well guarantee things will be a little different from the small community feeling we currently have here. At that point it would be in GOC's best interest to listen when the majority of paying businesses and sponsors say they don't want something on the site, and I wouldn't be suprised that if it comes to losing the sponsor base or tightening rules that GOC tightens some rules. The admin group may be against it now in wake of the past years events and this place still having new forum smell, but just wait until the decision is $$$$$$ vs rules and regulation and you can pretty well predict what will win out.

Of course a forum is useless without the membership, but I haven't noticed that large of an outcry, just the usual people that complain at every little change doing their usual (and this is as simple as smilies FFS). If 50% of the membership wanted alternative media and would walk without it, well then they might be listened to. As it is it's a very select few, and others that are also vocal just don't like limitiations on free speech (understandably, I'm one of them but I got over it as it's a PRIVATE owned business).

The hard truth of the matter is a sub-forum for tinfoilers might very well torpedo GOC's attempt at large sponsorships. If the big players in this industry wanted to advertise to the alternative media crowd then they would do so directly. I could very well see from a business prospective that if I were to choose from competing advertising agencies and my business depended on semi-professionalism I wouldn't go with the one who catered to the fringe element. Such a catering to the alternative media crowd could very well hurt GOC's attempt at sponsorship more than 'be well received', and if it is well received it's a select few members that don't bring any $$$$ to the table where as a sponsor does.

Now as I've explained it from a GOC perspective; why would it be any different with any other community also generating revenue through advertising? They're evil when they do it but GOC is good to do the same? You have to think of it as a business, and business may not do so well or look professional with a bunch of people constantly screaming "THE END IS FRIGGIN NIGH!!". Really what you're proposing is a Conservative version of Rabble, and you know what kind of credibility they have.

Well said loki,

You've hit the nail right on the head, from day one we've always wanted to hold ourselves (GOC) to a more professional standard, this was one of the founding principals. At the time there was a void in Canada and a professional pro-gun outlet was needed. That's where we came in, we experienced the current offerings and new we could do better, not just for the entertainment aspect but for the gun community as well. This is just our beginning, but the future looks bright and I think I can speak for all the admin when I say we remain humble in having this great opportunity to represent the gun community.

The only thing I disagree with in your statement is the "money rules all" notion. When it comes to up holding our original vision and this forums foundation, money takes a back seat. This was an agreement we made from day one, I guess this was another founding principal you could say, for me personally it was more a moral issue. Board sponsors shouldn't dictate the feel of the forum and community, if they don't like it, they can leave, there will always be more sponsors. The fact of the matter is, we're not here to get rich, nor will we. We genuinely care about the community and want to promote Canadian gun culture. For some reason this concept is unbelievable to most, not sure why but I guess that's just the reality of it. All we can do is set an example and lead. A group of people trying to do some good in our community shouldn't be so taboo.

As far as this new forum/topic thing goes, I don't think it's needed, we have a few "tinfoil" topics and I believe that will suffice. Again, professional is the key word here.

Just my 2 cents

[harbl_the_cat]

Well said loki,

You've hit the nail right on the head, from day one we've always wanted to hold ourselves (GOC) to a more professional standard, this was one of the founding principals. At the time there was a void in Canada and a professional pro-gun outlet was needed. That's where we came in, we experienced the current offerings and new we could do better, not just for the entertainment aspect but for the gun community as well. This is just our beginning, but the future looks bright and I think I can speak for all the admin when I say we remain humble in having this great opportunity to represent the gun community.

The only thing I disagree with in your statement is the "money rules all" notion. When it comes to up holding our original vision and this forums foundation, money takes a back seat. This was an agreement we made from day one, I guess this was another founding principal you could say, for me personally it was more a moral issue. Board sponsors shouldn't dictate the feel of the forum and community, if they don't like it, they can leave, there will always be more sponsors. The fact of the matter is, we're not here to get rich, nor will we. We genuinely care about the community and want to promote Canadian gun culture. For some reason this concept is unbelievable to most, not sure why but I guess that's just the reality of it. All we can do is set an example and lead. A group of people trying to do some good in our community shouldn't be so taboo.

As far as this new forum/topic thing goes, I don't think it's needed, we have a few "tinfoil" topics and I believe that will suffice. Again, professional is the key word here.

Just my 2 cents

Looks like the move on CGN to pretty much censor the alternative media is causing some pretty hearty discussion over there too.

I agree the whole idea of a separate forum was more of a suggestion to CGN as opposed to over here - but again I reiterate, I think it's a bad call for them to adopt a policy of censorship the way they did. Really, I get the impression that a handful of mods there just didn't agree with a lot of stuff being posted and decided to filter it from general circulation to prevent discussion.

Again, I hope the lesson (especially for GOC's owners and mods) is learnt that if you want to alienate your user base (who in are your clients), follow the lead of CGN and regulate and censor discussions. My impression as well surrounding GOC's history is due to poor decisions made by CGN's owners/mods, there was a fairly large exodus of users (many forced), creating the demand for alternatives.

I think their recent News regulation policy is another example of one poor decisions, and I believe one that will chase a lot of their users away. As I said, I kept going back to CGN for the EE and for the Pony discussions, but I think their posture of limiting discussion on their board justifies making an exodus.

I hope their loss is GOC's gain, because some of the folks who were worked up about the changes are some pretty sharp folks (not myself, of course, but certainly some of their other offended regulars).